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Martel732 wrote:
"Finally, the WK is a clearly fair model; anybody who disagrees need to follow BBAP's advice, as quoted by red, in red, above. "

I'll give you BA and watch you

Even the mighty Jancoran has failed to produce anything useful for BA. He doesn't play them or "get" them or something. Not surprising.

If you give me BA, I will play them as red Ultramarines, "count as" grav, and I will do just fine.

"Janky" consistently lives up to his handle.

Just drop it and get back to sisters. You and I will never agree.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Guys... this is pretty far afield. You need to bring it back to sisters and wishlisting about sisters.

Is there really anything else to say here?

Maybe the thread has reached its natural conclusion?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
As for "balance,", if people want to say "40k isn't balanced", they probably need to define the word "balance", because it clearly means different things to different people.

This is part of the problem, I think. People think "balanced" means "I can bring this zero-Synapse Tyranids army I found in the bin to a GT and I have as much chance of winning with it as I do with anything else". The game system requires you to make choices when designing an army list, and if you make sensible choices while doing that and play that army well, you can win. It's not easy to win against similarly tuned up armies - but it shouldn't be easy to win.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
So with the Legion list as precedent I'm getting back behind the possibility of Sororitas bikes with flamers/meltaguns on the front instead of bolters. Possibly with some kind of extra Hammer of Wrath hits and/or immunity to fire resulting from driving forward in the middle of a giant fireball.

Where exactly do SoB Bikes fit into an SoB army, though? The concept is cool, but I think Sisters cover the "fast Melta" base pretty comprehensively already.

Martel732 wrote:
Just drop it and get back to sisters. You and I will never agree.

Pot,

You're Black, and should take your own advice.

Sincerely,

- Kettle


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BBAP wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
As for "balance,", if people want to say "40k isn't balanced", they probably need to define the word "balance", because it clearly means different things to different people.

This is part of the problem, I think. People think "balanced" means "I can bring this zero-Synapse Tyranids army I found in the bin to a GT and I have as much chance of winning with it as I do with anything else".

In theory, if points were perfect, one could do that.

In practice, points are not even close to perfect, so it doesn't work.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
In theory, if points were perfect, one could do that.

In practice, points are not even close to perfect, so it doesn't work.

Yeah, because there's no centralised system for valuing unit abilities. That'd produce a more consistent game and help obviate the problem of Blood Angels-style fail-books - but even there you'd get whining-ass Chapter Masters complaining about Zomgop units.

 BBAP wrote:

Where exactly do SoB Bikes fit into an SoB army, though? The concept is cool, but I think Sisters cover the "fast Melta" base pretty comprehensively already.

I would say that they don't fit. The dex has plenty of fast attack, plenty of close range fire power and even a very nice heavy support section with rending hvy bolters and the exorcist.

The weaknesses in the dex remain to be in hth. Repentia lack a delivery device that can get them into an assault before being obliterated just before they get to charge.

5++ and FnP for repentia all the time and an AoF that allows them to assault after disembarking from a transport will go a long ways towards making them viable. PenEngines getting the 4 wound dread upgrade as well as a 5++ and IWND might make them worth taking.

A formation that gives them all invuln re-rolls and a scout move before the game would be interesting.

 dracpanzer wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

Where exactly do SoB Bikes fit into an SoB army, though? The concept is cool, but I think Sisters cover the "fast Melta" base pretty comprehensively already.

I would say that they don't fit. The dex has plenty of fast attack, plenty of close range fire power and even a very nice heavy support section with rending hvy bolters and the exorcist.

The weaknesses in the dex remain to be in hth. Repentia lack a delivery device that can get them into an assault before being obliterated just before they get to charge.

5++ and FnP for repentia all the time and an AoF that allows them to assault after disembarking from a transport will go a long ways towards making them viable. PenEngines getting the 4 wound dread upgrade as well as a 5++ and IWND might make them worth taking.

A formation that gives them all invuln re-rolls and a scout move before the game would be interesting.

In trying to make them fit my thought processes keep leading me back to making said fire-bikes into an assault unit. The army has plenty of close-range firepower but if there were melta-bikes specifically for blowing open transports and then charging the passengers, or fire-bikes built to drive a wall of burning fuel through the middle of something with the attendant mass Hammer of Wrath I think they'd manage to be something other than a slight variation on Dominions.

See, cool as that sounds I just don't know that Sisters need that kind of unit. Murdering infantry and light mech has never been an issue for Sisters - what they're lacking is reliable long-range firepower, resilient mobility, and any way to avoid close combat beatsticks that doesn't involve throwing away vehicles (i.e. your only source of mobility).

 BBAP wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
In theory, if points were perfect, one could do that.

In practice, points are not even close to perfect, so it doesn't work.

Yeah, because there's no centralised system for valuing unit abilities. That'd produce a more consistent game and help obviate the problem of Blood Angels-style fail-books - but even there you'd get whining-ass Chapter Masters complaining about Zomgop units.

There is a good case for balancing C:SM against itself and then balancing everything else against C:SM. It's a floating base that works at the core, and ensures that, at the very worst, the game is only devolves to RPS games when no MEQs are involved. That is, SM, Necrons, Eldar & Tau would all go 50-50 against SM; however Eldar (easily) autowin Necrons autowin Tau (barely) autowin Eldar in true RPS fashion. If Orks & GSC also autowin Necrons, coinflip each other, but autolose Eldar & Tau, that would also be OK.

How about close combat bikers?

 BBAP wrote:
See, cool as that sounds I just don't know that Sisters need that kind of unit. Murdering infantry and light mech has never been an issue for Sisters - what they're lacking is reliable long-range firepower, resilient mobility, and any way to avoid close combat beatsticks that doesn't involve throwing away vehicles (i.e. your only source of mobility).

The easiest fix is to allow give Sisters a 3" Move to break out of CC. Then they can just step back & flame away....

Maybe... but we are talking about an Army of the Imperium. Just take someone who does it better... White Scars, Ravenguard, or Ravenwing. Why clutter up the codex with things that are poor imitations of something else. (Yes, the difference between T4 and T5 on a bike is huge... and important).

 Melissia wrote:
How about close combat bikers?

Sounds like fun - also no reason they can't have Sororitas Terminators.

Got bored waiting for Games Workshop so orderd me some from Grishnark Models -



They came this morning and they look great. Can't wait to get one of my painters to work on them!

 Melissia wrote:
How about close combat bikers?

Why aren't there more close combat bikers in the game in general? Eldar bikers are JSJ-artillery, Corsair bikers are incredibly expensive kitted for melee, Marine/CSM bikers are generalists who mostly exist to be ablative wounds for the biker characters who do the actual killing...

The only proper bike-lancers around are Shining Spears (Deathwatch bikes, Marine command squads, and Black Knights exist, but they're all too expensive, much better at shooting, and/or unavailable in quantity), serious melee bikes could be a thing unique to the Sisters.

I guess bikes do make sense... most Cathedrals aren't on Death Worlds like Sanctuary 101. Bikes are a good mode of transport in a Hive City.
Still... I do want a Plastic Repressor Kit. Could be the reason that the announced Forgeworld Repressor hasn't actually been released yet.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
...I do want a Plastic Repressor Kit...

I took some measurements and it'd be theoretically possible to do a pretty impressive multi-kit within the constraints of three frames on the current vehicle frame form factor. Rhino base, with sculpted extra armour panels, two different upper hulls (Repressor and the more general one), two turret configurations (Exorcist tubes, Immolator turret), and you'd probably have space left for a main turret/sponsons to make a Predator or Predator variant out of it, you'd end up with five possible builds and some weapon variants out of the one kit.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Anpu-adom wrote:
...I do want a Plastic Repressor Kit...

I took some measurements and it'd be theoretically possible to do a pretty impressive multi-kit within the constraints of three frames on the current vehicle frame form factor. Rhino base, with sculpted extra armour panels, two different upper hulls (Repressor and the more general one), two turret configurations (Exorcist tubes, Immolator turret), and you'd probably have space left for a main turret/sponsons to make a Predator or Predator variant out of it, you'd end up with five possible builds and some weapon variants out of the one kit.

I'd take it... specifically, I'd take about 11 of it.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The easiest fix is to allow give Sisters a 3" Move to break out of CC. Then they can just step back & flame away....

I've been saying that for ages - some kind of "jink" to avoid CC, like Spiders get against shooting. It'd save you having to throw vehicles away to avoid being charged.

They'd still have range issues, though. Some form of reliable long range shooting and mobility would be nice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu-adom wrote:


I'd take it... specifically, I'd take about 11 of it.

+1

I'm also hoping for some kind of multi-melta armed assault shuttle (explained away as a converted transport to dodge the Decree Passive). Put the fear of fire into the heretics.

Maybe something like this:

And what did that limo become today?

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
How about close combat bikers?

Sounds like fun

Indeed. It'd take some careful tweaking but it's definitely possible-- and they'd be similar, in my mind, to mounted knights, armed with power lances and chainswords and having a lot of attacks, better defense (T3(4) is actually useful against most close combat attacks, unlike against shooting attacks), and charge bonses. Sure, there's gonna be other units better at doing charges... but it's not the point to make something better than everything else, the point is to make something interesting that adds to the Sororitas army.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
serious melee bikes could be a thing unique to the Sisters.

Until Orks and their Warbikers get a facelift, that is. Although I guess they don't have lance type weaponry

Still, SoB bikes would be... interesting. I'd have to see how such a model would be sculpted without looking a bit weird or funky; I'm sure the talent over at Citadel would work something out though.

 Melissia wrote:
Indeed. It'd take some careful tweaking but it's definitely possible-- and they'd be similar, in my mind, to mounted knights, armed with power lances and chainswords and having a lot of attacks, better defense (T3(4) is actually useful against most close combat attacks, unlike against shooting attacks), and charge bonses

T4 is good enough for close combat units designed to kill "chaff" infantry, but Sisters do that just fine already.

Sure, there's gonna be other units better at doing charges... but it's not the point to make something better than everything else, the point is to make something interesting that adds to the Sororitas army.

I get that - but if the unit sucks, what's it adding to the Sororitas other than another unit that nobody will use? Sisters have enough of those already.

If we really want a close combat unit, why settle for a dinky one that can kill chaff infantry but nothing else? Why not a legitimate deathstar that puts the fear of Empra into everything?

 BBAP wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Indeed. It'd take some careful tweaking but it's definitely possible-- and they'd be similar, in my mind, to mounted knights, armed with power lances and chainswords and having a lot of attacks, better defense (T3(4) is actually useful against most close combat attacks, unlike against shooting attacks), and charge bonses

T4 is good enough for close combat units designed to kill "chaff" infantry, but Sisters do that just fine already.

Sure, there's gonna be other units better at doing charges... but it's not the point to make something better than everything else, the point is to make something interesting that adds to the Sororitas army.

I get that - but if the unit sucks, what's it adding to the Sororitas other than another unit that nobody will use? Sisters have enough of those already.

If we really want a close combat unit, why settle for a dinky one that can kill chaff infantry but nothing else? Why not a legitimate deathstar that puts the fear of Empra into everything?

Shock units may be hard to put together in an environment where immunity to getting run down is the norm, true. Bigger lances, shields, maybe an oversized bike with a passenger to justify higher Toughness or extra Wounds/Attacks?

If you want to know why I didn't push or a deathstar unit? Because deathstar units are boring as fething hell

.... as are the people that rely on them

But seriously, there's no need to turn every close combat unit in to a deathstar, that's just dull and uninspired.

Personally, I'd like to see the book be split into three sub armies--the Witch Hunters, the Eclesiarchy, and the Arbites. I'd like enough variety between the three of them to allow people to go pure if they really, really wanted to.

I mean, the Inquisition could take Inquisitors and their retinue, Inquisitorial Sto--Vanguard, Assassins, etc.

The Ecclesiarchy is our good ole Sororitas backed up by up by priestly goodness, arco flagellents, etc.

And the Arbites...aren't Aribites supposed to be a more badass version of Judge Dredd? Lots of potential there.

I'd like to see the Sororitas buffed out a little, and their unique units--like the Seraphim--made even more unique. I don't want them to just be smaller, weaker versions of space marines.

I would also dearly like Celestians to ride cybernetic gothic style horse mounts. Just because I like the idea.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Shock units may be hard to put together in an environment where immunity to getting run down is the norm, true. Bigger lances, shields, maybe an oversized bike with a passenger to justify higher Toughness or extra Wounds/Attacks?

I mean yeah, you could do that, but if we're wishlisting and we're insisting on a close combat unit then I want something scary. I don't want a Rough Riders or Shining Spears-style one and done unit that takes a wound off a Wraithknight and then dies. I want a proper hymn-singing, flaming-chainsword-wielding, cool-as-all-hell 350-point deathstar that not only fits in with the Sisters fluff-wise but makes sense in the context of the army; i.e. capable of drawing vast quantities of bullets away from your tanks and single-handedly keeping your other units out of combat because it kicks so much ass that nobody wants to go near it.

That's the kind of CC unit Sisters need if they're going to get one - something tough, deadly, and mobile. Either that or massive mobs of cheap, low-grade, high-Ld tarpit bubblewrap, like the Zealots they used to be able to take in 3rd/4th Edition, stuff you can push across the table en masse and not care if it dies. Your only option at the moment is Repentia, who are halfway between both concepts but fail to be either, or Allies, which are depressing.

I think you could make a pretty cool deathstar unit using Command Squad slots and Jump Packs, given the right options and buffs. I think if you're going to do Bikes you're better off taking advantage of their Relentlessness than trying to make them T4 CC units, considering they'll probably be competing with Dominions for Fast Attack slots, which means you're giving up MM Immolators and Meltaguns to fit them in.

... has anyone mentioned "Exorcist-Bikes" yet? Like Attack Bike-style things with an organ-launcher on the sidecar? That would be awesome.

"Zealots"? What are those? Frateris Militia, perhaps?