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I recently posted some images of some WIP necrons featuring some new marbling techniques, and got some great feedback on improving them. Today I finally found some time to try and implement some of the suggestions, and was hoping to get some feedback from my fellow dakkites on how it is going, what to improve, etc.

First, from the previous thread, my first three generations of marble:

Gen 1: just 3 layers of stippling using sponges
Gen 2: My first attempt at veined marble using an airbrush. It came out a bit more indistinct and watery looking than I would like. Most people just seemed to think it was a cool water/stargate effect
Gen 3: My first attempt at veined marble using brushes. I was really happy with this one, but once again it lacked the visual cues to help people interpret it as marble, and it was often mistaken for an energy effect.

Now for what I worked on today. What I tried to do was include a second type of veining to better indicate it was stone, as well as vary the color within the base stone more:

My first experiment. Didn't turn out great, but I changed things up trying black base veins with intruding white veins. Kind of a reverse on what I did before.


A refinement and reversal. This one has white base veins with intruding black veins, which is somewhat closer to my original design.

Finally I attempted to go back and implement these changes on an existing piece:


I thought the contrast between the smooth white veins and the more crinkled black veins on this one was interesting. Here is its sibling which hasn't received the updated treatment:


So, thoughts and suggestions? What was effective and what was not? And what combinations look best? White on black? Black on white? Both 'crinkled', or one 'crinked' one smooth?

Outstanding! I think your last attempt is the best thus far at recreating the look.

Thanks!

Were you referring to the walker leg or the block?

The more I look at that walker leg the more I feel like the black veins are a bit gauche.

Nice progress. Adding the darker veins really helps make it more convincing. I've been doing a lot of reading on marbling, and generally the veins are darker than your base color. Have you thought about adding a few well placed gold veins? I'm planning on doing some marbling on my crons, using enchanted blue as my base and regal blue and gold for the veins. I found this pretty helpful in a lot of ways:

http://www.gamedecor.com/abasworld/Tricks/painting%20tutorials.htm

Great link, Ultra Grey. That pretty much shows what I wanted to say in the other thread, Riplikash, about mixing stippled/washed clouding and painted veins. I must say, though, that while I also find the black veins a bit too stark, as they are, the technique is really coming along. I think the "refinement and reversal" block is your best effort, thus far, and immediately identifiable as marble.

If I haven't mentioned it before, have you checked out Romain's gargoyle painting vids on Beasts of War? It's a lot to watch, some of which doesn't pertain directly to what you're doing, but I think its well worth the time.

Ultra Grey wrote:Nice progress. Adding the darker veins really helps make it more convincing. I've been doing a lot of reading on marbling, and generally the veins are darker than your base color. Have you thought about adding a few well placed gold veins? I'm planning on doing some marbling on my crons, using enchanted blue as my base and regal blue and gold for the veins. I found this pretty helpful in a lot of ways:

http://www.gamedecor.com/abasworld/Tricks/painting%20tutorials.htm

Great link, Ultra Grey, thank you. I'll have to give that a try.

As for veins being darker than your base, look at that link you sent again. Only 2/4 of the marble examples use dark veins (white and honeyed marble). The other two (black and red marble) use lighter veins. The black especially has inspired me. Hopefully I can find some time tonight to try it out. Thanks again.

As for gold, I love that idea. My 'crons are all about bling. But I'm skeptical of gold paints ability to show through in fine veins. I think I would have to base the veins in a honey brown then paint the gold veins over the top. I also worry that white, black and gold veins in once piece might be a bit much. Seems like a delicate procedure, but I'll give it a try on my block tonight. Thanks again.

oadie wrote:Great link, Ultra Grey. That pretty much shows what I wanted to say in the other thread, Riplikash, about mixing stippled/washed clouding and painted veins. I must say, though, that while I also find the black veins a bit too stark, as they are, the technique is really coming along. I think the "refinement and reversal" block is your best effort, thus far, and immediately identifiable as marble.

If I haven't mentioned it before, have you checked out Romain's gargoyle painting vids on Beasts of War? It's a lot to watch, some of which doesn't pertain directly to what you're doing, but I think its well worth the time.

Yeah, I'm more seeing what you were talking about this time Oadie. The depth I tried to apply with thin, clouding coats was much better recreated in the tutorial with stippling. I haven't seen the Romain videos yet, I'll check them out, thanks.

I think if the black lines were somewhat subdued or .. hazy ?..shrouded perhaps that it would help.

I swore out load when I saw your progress images (especially the last 1, with super smooth white).

That last image (not spoiler), the walker leg, looks pretty rockin'. I'll be bookmarking that link posted earlier as well, very informative

Ok, little update based on the info I got from that link. Very informative, though I think I should not go all the way to black in the future. Big difference here is the use of stippling instead of attempting thin layers. Trying smooth veins again. Any thoughts or critiques would be appreciated.



And an update to my generations comparison:

Í've bookmakred and subscribed!!

Will you post a tutorial on how you did your gen5? marble?

Gen 5 is yet another improvement. The dilute paint and stippling of the black help it to "bleed," a little, giving it a properly wispy quality. Like this, I feel like even straight black can work.

You hit the perfect amount of stippled white, I think - it gives the base stone nice variation, but it remains distinctly turquoise. Even the random travel of your veins is feeling more realistic, in this attempt.

Loving the side-by-side generational composites, by the way. It's cool to see you feeling around, finding your method, then refining it.

I think Gen 5 is wonderful. It will be interesting to see if you can improve upon that as I think it looks perfect.

Glad to know this is an improvement. I think I'm getting pretty close to an effect I'm happy with. I think I'll try one more variation though, before I apply it to my Necrons.

I feel like this latest iteration lacks directional layering, that is, there is no clear grain too it, it is random. And while some marble does appear that way, I've always been partial to marble with a distinct grain to it. Does anyone else agree with that, or am I barking up the wrong tree and I should just focus on the gen5 style?

My thought is to subtly add some veined directions to the stippled "clouding" effects, similar to how Romain did it in the video oadie mentioned.

I'm also wondering if people prefer smooth white veins like in gen5, or crinkled ones as in gen4? That is, of course, assuming they were of similar quality. Obviously the gen5 veins were better implemented.

Thanks to everyone who has given feedback so far. As you can probably tell from my marbling progression collage, it has been immensely helpful.

If there is interest I can write up a tutorial when once I settle on a technique.

Looks very nice and convincing.

You're making great progress very quickly. I actually prefer the white veining in gen4, but overall, gen5 is the winner.

And I agree with oadie, it's a huge boon to be able to see all the gens side by side.

I agree, if it is done properly, marble with layering is absolutely phenomenal:

I'm not as big a fan of the starkly and smoothly striated look as fenrir, but I definitely think you should try working in a vaguely uniform direction to see how you like it. I actually planned to mention it, earlier, but scrapped that section, as I was pressed for time in that post. Both Gens 4 and 5 have a good amount, I think, of forking and random travel within the each color of veining, but the two run roughly perpendicular to each other. Transpose one to run roughly in line with the other and I think the result will be closer to the "standard" grain.

If you're still playing around, I might also consider limiting the usage of the black to a mere accent, for a trial. If you want a consistent grain for the sake of realism, you may also want to consider that there is usually a dominant color to clouding and veining, potentially with traces of other color, since it's rare to get perfectly even distribution of several different colored minerals in the initial matrix.

Gen5 is outstanding! A marked improvement over the others!

I love everything after generation 3... Teach me your ways!

yeah i'd love a tutorial when you perfected your technique

Ok, looks like that is a yes on the marbling tutorial. I'll try to start on that today, as I think I am probably at the end of developing the technique. It's now just a question of how to implement it for best effect.

oadie wrote:I'm not as big a fan of the starkly and smoothly striated look as fenrir, but I definitely think you should try working in a vaguely uniform direction to see how you like it. I actually planned to mention it, earlier, but scrapped that section, as I was pressed for time in that post. Both Gens 4 and 5 have a good amount, I think, of forking and random travel within the each color of veining, but the two run roughly perpendicular to each other. Transpose one to run roughly in line with the other and I think the result will be closer to the "standard" grain.

If you're still playing around, I might also consider limiting the usage of the black to a mere accent, for a trial. If you want a consistent grain for the sake of realism, you may also want to consider that there is usually a dominant color to clouding and veining, potentially with traces of other color, since it's rare to get perfectly even distribution of several different colored minerals in the initial matrix.

Maybe I'm remembering my geology classes wrong, but I wouldn't have expected the black and white veining to be parallel. The smoother white veining I was thinking of as the result of metamorphic pressure causing separation and warping of elements creating distinct, horizontal layers, while the crinklier black veining would be the result of cracks forming, flooding with mineral rich subterranean water, and eventually being filled with quartz deposits. I do agree that they are too perpendicular in the practice example (not much room to work with), but I would think the black veins would cut across and through the white, being formed by later processes. But while I think that is technically correct, it may not be the best artistic interpretation. Thoughts?

I do agree about limiting it to an accent. On a full piece you would only see the occasional black vein amongst several layers of white, but for this small practice area I only had room for one veins of each, resulting in an unnatural even appearance.

I think the overall effect is very nice. What's throwing people off is the color. It think if you used the same effect on a dark green, black, or dark grey base, people would quickly recognize it for what it's meant to be.

Yeah, I realized that would be a hurdle from the very beginning. The biggest visual cues you can give to imitate marble are using either a black/white or green/white pallet.

Which is a big reason I started this thread, to get ideas on how to imitate marble without relying on those two color schemes for help.

riplikash wrote:Maybe I'm remembering my geology classes wrong, but I wouldn't have expected the black and white veining to be parallel. The smoother white veining I was thinking of as the result of metamorphic pressure causing separation and warping of elements creating distinct, horizontal layers, while the crinklier black veining would be the result of cracks forming, flooding with mineral rich subterranean water, and eventually being filled with quartz deposits. I do agree that they are too perpendicular in the practice example (not much room to work with), but I would think the black veins would cut across and through the white, being formed by later processes. But while I think that is technically correct, it may not be the best artistic interpretation. Thoughts?

Sadly, I can't find my old textbook for greater detail, but a snip from cursory interwebz research says:

Wikipedia wrote:The characteristic swirls and veins of many colored marble varieties are usually due to various mineral impurities such as clay, silt, sand, iron oxides, or chert which were originally present as grains or layers in the limestone.

This aligns with what little I remember from my geology studies - for simplicity's sake, I've been operating under the assumption that what we were calling marble was the typical calcite variety, formed by the heating, compression, and differential stressing of originally striated (as it frequently is) limestone. Deposition by groundwater seepage could, hypothetically, leave mineral deposits in internal cracks in the original rock, but I can't think of anything that would result in distinct black veining, at least by that method - quartz is clear or milky white, iron oxides are red-brown, etc. and sufficient buildup for veining would require relatively large internal fissures that I wouldn't expect to find in a rock undergoing serious compressive forces (or, if it happened before compression, the fissures would have been too massive to be filled by mere seepage).

Of course, I wouldn't suggest making the veins completely parallel, and they should cross over each other every now and again, but I'd have everything running randomly in the same vague direction. I wish at least one of us had more than distant memories of past geology classes (well, it was only half a decade ago, for me, but that class was one of many and totally outside my usual focus). Any geologists here on Dakka want to chime in and slap us both down?

Ah, right. I was mixing some of the characteristics of gneiss formation with marble formation.

Still though, it seems like the secondary veins would have to be formed via a cracking/deposit process taking place after the marble formation rather than as a result of existing striations in the limestone, otherwise they would never be able to cross the primary veins. As a general rule, if something crosses layers it had to come either before (inclusions for example) or after whatever created the layers. In the case of cross layer veining like we're discussing, I would think it was have to come after.

Not that this has much to do with painting anymore. I just really enjoyed geology.

riplikash wrote:Ah, right. I was mixing some of the characteristics of gneiss formation with marble formation.

Still though, it seems like the secondary veins would have to be formed via a cracking/deposit process taking place after the marble formation rather than as a result of existing striations in the limestone, otherwise they would never be able to cross the primary veins. As a general rule, if something crosses layers it had to come either before (inclusions for example) or after whatever created the layers. In the case of cross layer veining like we're discussing, I would think it was have to come after.

Not that this has much to do with painting anymore. I just really enjoyed geology.

Good sir, you are correct. Cracks are typically composed of Calcites (white to grey, and different hues depending on the environment).
I'm happy to see somebody else has an interest in the topic.

Lol, it's not that I like the layered marble more, I'm just a tad enthusiastic when it comes to anything related to my degree

Ooh, so we do have a geologist, after all! Out of curiosity, what would cause cross-grain black veining, then (if anything)? I like the look of the black veins, aesthetically, but I don't recall coming across any examples thereof, only essentially the reverse - black(ish) stones with lighter flecks and veins, like those that would be formed by quartz and calcite. Distorted sediment layers wouldn't ever cross, as mentioned, so I'm sort of hoping there's a plausible natural process.

Well, I'm a Geographer with a minor in geology, so don't give me too much credit.

Now, let me tell you what kind of search-fu I've got to find this online and not in a text book. Stupid internet...

Options:
Common (more or less)--
Horneblende
Plagioclase
Sillimanite

Rare---
ilmenite (primare ore for Titanium)
Cassiterite (primary ore for Tin)
Molybdenite (ore for Molybdenum)
Quartz (does come in black)

Typically, these types of veins are very rare, and are usually more point case than linear (except horneblende, plagioclase, quartz; and Sillimanite is fibrous) due to the chemical deposition (precipitation) of the mineral by subterranean water.

Look up a few of these mineral names, and you may find an idea spark in your mind for other bases.

Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dike_(geology)

It may not be as fluid and pretty looking as you're looking for to mix into your turquoise and blue, but it is an option. Dikes are intrusions of igneous origin, causing stark borders surrounded by small areas of contact and non-contact metamorphic stone. Intrusions can be just about any color you'd like, depending on the environment.

If I'm incorrect about anything, correct me. It's been a little while since I've touched on this topic

Ah, now it's coming all back, thanks Fenrir.

Your right, the veins I was thinking of were calcium deposits. Those would be much more likely to form than quartz. In hindsight all of the blue marble I researched that had cross veins had white or grey cross veins.

I don't think I want to go for full on igneous intrusions, so I think I'm just going to fall back on "alien world has unique geological formations" to explain why the veining is white and the cross deposits are black.

Thanks again Fenrir.

This has been one of the most productive threads I've ever been involved in.

I have done quite a bit of marble painting myself and i think what you have so far is very nice. My only suggestion would be to add some glazes to the surface. Take your blue base color, thin it down with Future Floor Polish at about a 1:20 ratio and then start adding some glazes, I would say that you will need about 5 to 7 coats. Let each layer dry between coats.

The purpose of the glaze is to tie all your colors together while still having some contrast. It will really help pull the marble effect off nicely. When I painted my "Jade" colored Skorne;



The final step I did was to do some green glazes over the final product, this really helped the veins and details appear as if they were in the marble, instead of on the model. Lastly, a little gloss coat on the model goes a long way to helping to pull off the affect. Good work and keep posting progress!!

Ashton