Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

While pondering the MANY problems with the Tau codex today and lamenting the paradoxical lack of AT weapons in an army marked by the best AT weapon in the game, I thought of this idea:

Due to the increased accuracy afforded by the markerlights tracking their target, a markerlight token can be used to allow a unit to rapid fire at the maximum range of the weapon system being fired, rather than at 12 inches. Alternatively, a Markerlight can be used to allow a unit to move and fire its rapid fire weapons at their full range at the marked target.

Discuss: should these effects be allowed to stack?

Before people begin to worry about the strength of moving and firing 2 shots at S5 at 30 inches, giving an effective range of 36", let us not forget the standard Grey Knight, who can move and fire 2 S5 shots at 24" and has T4, a 3+ save, force weapons, and the ability to take heavy weapons. all for cheaper than a unit of FW and the markerlight needed to make this work.

Tau have a lack of AT weapons? This is news to me.

You must be playing against the most light tank spammiest armies to really need this upgrade. or maybe you only play small games with your Tau so a litle is worth a lot.

also, don't like the sound of that stacking. being able to shoot at maximum range is a bigger problem to me. it's not the range that's the problem, it's the fact that my targets are moving away from me as my dudes are trying to get up to your lines.

really, wouldn't it be simpler to give squads the option to take a heavy weapon?

Buttons wrote:Tau have a lack of AT weapons? This is news to me.

Tau can take, at most, 9 rail guns. If one maxed out their Elites, Heavy, and HQ slots, they can take 9 rail guns, 9 S6 plasma, 15 meltas, and 15 Misslepods. Those plasma and railguns, meltas and misslepods are on the same platform. All of those weapons are on infantry models and easily killed, and mix their strengths too much. IE High strength heavy AT + low strength, light AT or short range, high strength + long range light AT.

Compare to DE who, when maxed out, can take 67 darklances, which are good at taking out any target, can be mounted on vehicles for high mobility/increased survival, and can be as concentrated or diluted as need be. Most DE players take at least 21 lances easily at 1850 (along with 4-6 good sized scoring units that contribute to the fight), while your average Tau player struggles to get that many and still fit in scoring units capable of surviving. Tau in this meta have serious issues unhorsing their opponants, then no ability to deal with the passengers once they're out.

Lotet wrote:You must be playing against the most light tank spammiest armies to really need this upgrade. or maybe you only play small games with your Tau so a litle is worth a lot.

also, don't like the sound of that stacking.

really, wouldn't it be simpler to give squads the option to take a heavy weapon?

Simpler? Yes. In keeping with the current design philosphy and fluff? No.
As far as why this upgrade might be needed, one only has to look at the problems with the Tau army to know how badly something like this is necessary. Be it either to take out light armor, or deal with infantry in a timely manner before it gets to the Tau's lines.

Nagashek wrote:

Buttons wrote:Tau have a lack of AT weapons? This is news to me.

Tau can take, at most, 9 rail guns.

Which is a lot of them, especially considering the high BS or twin-linking of them and the fact that they are AP 1, they are the best long range AT weapon outside of apocalypse. Also, missile pods are like autocannons only better and you can have a lot of them in an army.

Buttons wrote:

Nagashek wrote:

Buttons wrote:Tau have a lack of AT weapons? This is news to me.

Tau can take, at most, 9 rail guns.

Which is a lot of them, especially considering the high BS or twin-linking of them and the fact that they are AP 1, they are the best long range AT weapon outside of apocalypse. Also, missile pods are like autocannons only better and you can have a lot of them in an army.

630pts for 9 railguns before upgrades is a steep price to pay for them. The conundrum is once you poor that many points into a list your options are pretty bare. Fusion blasters are the only other effective AT in the list but it is hampered by 12" range, being only availible in expensive platforms or units and almost without fail 12 in range means you lose them the following turn.

Missile pods are usefull but can only be used on crisis suits and again have a shorter range than auto-cannon.

Tun_Tau wrote:

Buttons wrote:

Nagashek wrote:

Buttons wrote:Tau have a lack of AT weapons? This is news to me.

Tau can take, at most, 9 rail guns.

Which is a lot of them, especially considering the high BS or twin-linking of them and the fact that they are AP 1, they are the best long range AT weapon outside of apocalypse. Also, missile pods are like autocannons only better and you can have a lot of them in an army.

630pts for 9 railguns before upgrades is a steep price to pay for them. The conundrum is once you poor that many points into a list your options are pretty bare. Fusion blasters are the only other effective AT in the list but it is hampered by 12" range, being only availible in expensive platforms or units and almost without fail 12 in range means you lose them the following turn.

Missile pods are usefull but can only be used on crisis suits and again have a shorter range than auto-cannon.

Why are you buying 9 railguns? What are you shooting at that requires 6+ railgun hits to bring down? Honestly you should be able to make due with three railheads with multi-trackers, you have a 1/3rd chance of penetrating AV 14 (which since you can move 12" and shoot you might be able to avoid shooting in favour of side armour), and a 50% chance of killing the tank if you penetrate it. The only long-range AT the IG gets are lascannons (which you pretty much have to spam to kill AV 14) and Vanquishers (which are BS 3 and only AP 2). Maybe you need to learn what to shoot at with your guns. You can shoot six feet with a railgun, so hitting side armour from across the board shouldn't be too hard, rather than having two hammerheads shoot at the tanks in front of them have them shoot at the side armour of the tanks in front of each other.

Buttons wrote:

Tun_Tau wrote:

Buttons wrote:

Nagashek wrote:

Buttons wrote:Tau have a lack of AT weapons? This is news to me.

Tau can take, at most, 9 rail guns.

Which is a lot of them, especially considering the high BS or twin-linking of them and the fact that they are AP 1, they are the best long range AT weapon outside of apocalypse. Also, missile pods are like autocannons only better and you can have a lot of them in an army.

630pts for 9 railguns before upgrades is a steep price to pay for them. The conundrum is once you poor that many points into a list your options are pretty bare. Fusion blasters are the only other effective AT in the list but it is hampered by 12" range, being only availible in expensive platforms or units and almost without fail 12 in range means you lose them the following turn.

Missile pods are usefull but can only be used on crisis suits and again have a shorter range than auto-cannon.

Why are you buying 9 railguns? What are you shooting at that requires 6+ railgun hits to bring down? Honestly you should be able to make due with three railheads with multi-trackers, you have a 1/3rd chance of penetrating AV 14 (which since you can move 12" and shoot you might be able to avoid shooting in favour of side armour), and a 50% chance of killing the tank if you penetrate it. The only long-range AT the IG gets are lascannons (which you pretty much have to spam to kill AV 14) and Vanquishers (which are BS 3 and only AP 2). Maybe you need to learn what to shoot at with your guns. You can shoot six feet with a railgun, so hitting side armour from across the board shouldn't be too hard, rather than having two hammerheads shoot at the tanks in front of them have them shoot at the side armour of the tanks in front of each other.

I do not run 9 I was just pointing out how much it would be to run that many. I love the railhead, but honestly they are more effective in the anti infantry roll. I think the point I was trying to make is that effect AT in tau is high cost and shorter supply than other armies.

Buttons wrote:The only long-range AT the IG gets are lascannons (which you pretty much have to spam to kill AV 14) and Vanquishers (which are BS 3 and only AP 2).

And Bastion Breacher Medusas. S10, AP1, 2D6 armour penetration and Blast. Yeah, the IG answer to the Railgun with a "f*** you" note.

The best setup would be 2-3 Broadsides + 2 Railheads.

But either way - I like the idea of adding to rapid fire with tokens.
Maybe make it + 12" to rapid fire range for each marker token used (up to 30"), so to get it at full range would require 2 tokens.

I think it'd be more fun to give Fire Warriors the option to take drones carrying Battlesuit weaponry (you'd barely need to screw with the models at all, for one thing), but this idea does present some interesting possibilities along the lines of making Fire Warriors useful enough that people stop deciding to take the absolute minimum twelve Fire Warriors in two bare squads on foot to leave room for fifteen Crisis suits (including HQ and bodyguards), three Broadsides, and two Hammerheads.

Having suit weapons on drones at BS2 would hardly fix anything. I'm a bigger fan of making gun drones troops with the option to add in sniper drones and even heavy guns if you want. That way the unit becomes mobile, has decent firepower, but is still somewhat fragile.

Not much to contribute, but I do think that BS3 on their standard troops is just plain ridiculous. Let's give sniper rifles to all the guys who can't shoot! They can shoot as well as Termagaunts can. What? DX

Tun_Tau wrote:

Buttons wrote:
Why are you buying 9 railguns? What are you shooting at that requires 6+ railgun hits to bring down? Honestly you should be able to make due with three railheads with multi-trackers, you have a 1/3rd chance of penetrating AV 14 (which since you can move 12" and shoot you might be able to avoid shooting in favour of side armour), and a 50% chance of killing the tank if you penetrate it. The only long-range AT the IG gets are lascannons (which you pretty much have to spam to kill AV 14) and Vanquishers (which are BS 3 and only AP 2). Maybe you need to learn what to shoot at with your guns. You can shoot six feet with a railgun, so hitting side armour from across the board shouldn't be too hard, rather than having two hammerheads shoot at the tanks in front of them have them shoot at the side armour of the tanks in front of each other.

I do not run 9 I was just pointing out how much it would be to run that many. I love the railhead, but honestly they are more effective in the anti infantry roll. I think the point I was trying to make is that effect AT in tau is high cost and shorter supply than other armies.

That was the point I was trying to make as well, thank you. The issue with Tau AT is that it is good, but very expensive and rare. When the meta prefers far more vehicles than you can optimally destroy/slow in a given turn, let alone reliably, Tau can not compete.

A new edition is coming and some problems will be fixed and others will arise. As far as a fix goes......

In the next codex I'd like to see Hammerhead railguns become Heavy 2 with the Submuniion becoming S 6 AP 3 Heavy 2 Small Blast, Pinning

Then make Fusion Blasters Range 18"

Finally, Make Sky Rays into transports that can be taken by Pathfunders.

Just a few ideas.