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So I was looking at the chariot rules and as it stands only 1 model counts as a chariot so I'll be talking about the Command barge specifically but the interpretation would follow if any other units become available.

So Lets say you have an Overlord on a Command Barge. He has a 3+ save it gives him "+1 on his armour saves" pg82 since a model cannot have multiple armour saves this must refer to his armour save rolls. Hence should I be hit by a normal weapon A roll of a 2 has +1 making a 3 and therefore passes. However should I get hit in the face by a power weapon which is AP3 I receive no save as my armour save is still 3+.

However should I put a Sempiternal Weave on the Overlord he now has a 2+ save. This save cannot be increased above 2+ as per pg2. Fortunately a Chariot does not improve my armour save instead it gives me +1 on my armour save rolls. Hence any 1 I roll becomes a 2 and therefore passes as there is no natural 1s always fail rule anymore (unless I missed it please quote page if you find it). Thus unless I'm being hit by AP2 I cannot be harmed in combat whilst on the Command Barge (obviously you can blow up the command barge and then hit the Overlord in the face with a relicblade).

This is what I believe to be the RaW of how this rule works does anyone agree or disagree plaese quotes rules to back up your argument (preferably with page numbers as we're all learning the book still).

A roll of 1 always fails when rolling armor saves. Even if you modify it with a plus 1, 2, 3 etc. The fact is you still rolled a 1 which means you fail automatically.

"+1 to your armor save" actually decreases the number you have to roll a successful save. So a 3+ save becomes a 2+ save in a chariot. You are incorrect about power swords @ AP3 being able to deny a Lord on a CCB an armor save. A lord with Weave on a chariot gains no additional benefit.

See the way cover saves and stealth/shrouded work.

A roll of 1 always fails when rolling armor saves. Even if you modify it with a plus 1, 2, 3 etc. The fact is you still rolled a 1 which means you fail automatically.

What page is this on? Or have you just made that rule up?

"+1 to your armor save" actually decreases the number you have to roll a successful save.

Please explain this how can +1 decrease a number? Where are you getting this from?

Both shrouding and Stealth state that they improve your save by one. The Chariot does not improve your save by 1 it gives you "+1 on your armour saves". The 2 are subtally different unless you can provide some evidence to backup your interpretation?

FlingitNow wrote:

A roll of 1 always fails when rolling armor saves. Even if you modify it with a plus 1, 2, 3 etc. The fact is you still rolled a 1 which means you fail automatically.

What page is this on? Or have you just made that rule up?

"+1 to your armor save" actually decreases the number you have to roll a successful save.

Please explain this how can +1 decrease a number? Where are you getting this from?

Both shrouding and Stealth state that they improve your save by one. The Chariot does not improve your save by 1 it gives you "+1 on your armour saves". The 2 are subtally different unless you can provide some evidence to backup your interpretation?

A save can never be better than 2+. It has been in the rules about taking saves for at least two editions.

FlingitNow wrote:
Both shrouding and Stealth state that they improve your save by one. The Chariot does not improve your save by 1 it gives you "+1 on your armour saves". The 2 are subtally different unless you can provide some evidence to backup your interpretation?

Well you have two choices if you want to read it like that.
I am pretty sure that in the chaos codex they also use +1 to invulnerable saves, but I digress.

The text says +1 to armour saves, however it does not say +1 to armour save rolls. Hence you are not adding 1 to the dice roll. As such your armour should be 2+ as it can never be less even with that necron weave. Option 2 though is that you +1 your save and make it a 4+ armour save despite this never happening in any other case it would be the closest to the point you are trying to make.

Remember it adds to the save, not the roll.

A save can never be better than 2+. It has been in the rules about taking saves for at least two editions.

And the save isn't better than 2+. Have you even read the initial post? It is a 2+ save but the chariot rules adds 1 to any armour save roll I take so I still have to roll 2 or higher to pass the save but any roll of a 1 counts as a 2 and therefore passes.

Thus say I had a 7+ armour save normally it is no use to me but on a Chariot a roll of a 6 would pass that save. Whereas if I have no armour save standing on a Chariot gives me no benefit.

FlingitNow wrote:

A save can never be better than 2+. It has been in the rules about taking saves for at least two editions.

And the save isn't better than 2+. Have you even read the initial post? It is a 2+ save but the chariot rules adds 1 to any armour save roll I take so I still have to roll 2 or higher to pass the save but any roll of a 1 counts as a 2 and therefore passes.

Thus say I had a 7+ armour save normally it is no use to me but on a Chariot a roll of a 6 would pass that save. Whereas if I have no armour save standing on a Chariot gives me no benefit.

Well, you're theory wouldn't work thanks to the wording of the rule:

"Chariots inevitably have a protective cowling or a series of force fields in their design, which we represent by allowing the rider +1 to his armour saves against wounds caused in close combat" (Pg. 82)

Note, you are not given permission to add +1 to your armour save ROLLS. You gain a +1 (i.e 1 'better') to your armour save while in close combat.

It's pretty cut and dry to be honest.

Iranna.

You armour SAVE is improved by 1, not the ROLL you make. Subtle difference.

The Chariot improves your save by +1. So a Lord with a 3+ save actually has a 2+ save when he is in the Chariot.

Hence the reason why Weave is now a little pointless for BargeLords. I have started giving mine WS/MSS and a Shifter instead.

n/m

"no save (armour, cover or invulnerable) can ever be improved beyond 2+. Regardless of what is giving the model its save, a roll of 1 always fails"

P.19 Maximum save section

Sometimes I think people are hoping "Asinine Rules Interpretation" will become an Olympic event. This would definitely get you to London.

As others have said, a 2+ is the best you can get. Admittingly, it would be amusing (and downright evil) if you could get a 1+ save, only deniable via AP1 weaponry

Page 19 under Maximum Save section. Last sentence says "Regardless of what is giving the model its save, a roll of 1 always fails."

Ninja'd!

Cool page 19 thanks. However that still doesn't answer whether i get a save against ap3 without the weave.

Also how is +1 to your saveS in anyway the same as improves your save by 1. You only have 1 armour save; multiples must refer to rolls! So if you've no weave on a command barge and i'm hitting you with a power weapon then no save for you...

Numerous times it's been stated in the rulebook you can't have a save lower than 2+ (2-3 times on page 2 alone).

Furthermore it is common knowledge (and I'm sure it says it in the book I just can't find where) that +1 results in improving the stat by 1, and -1 reduces it by one.

With WS / BS / S / T / W / I / A / Ld / HP / AV theres are all generally a value of 0-10 ( or 0-14 ) with it being the higher the better.

But with saves it's the lower the better, so +1 reduces the number, from - to 6+ to 5+ to 4+ to 3+ to 2+. (and a -1 increases the number, i.e. from 3+ to 4+ )

I.E - going to ground increases your coversave by +1, normally from 5+ to 4+, or 4+ to 3+.

The +1 to saves, will be that it'll increase both your standard and invulnerable save (i.e. - a terminator has a 2+ save and a 5+* save, ghostplate armour is a 4+ save and a 6+* save.)

It's not plus 1 to saves it is plus 1 to armour saves. Gives no benefit to any other type of save. Also your theory is based on an assumption that +1 is always the same as improved by 1. Cover saves stealth etc all use the later wording...

Also as pointed out the save is always not improved beyond 2+ and a 1 would fail but fortunately rolling d6+1 i doubt a final result of 1 would come up often...

FlingitNow wrote:rolling d6+1 i doubt a final result of 1 would come up often...

Except that's not how saves work.

if you normally have a 5+ cover save and you have something that says "gives +1 to cover saves" - the result is that you have a 4+ cover save.

In the case of the Chariot - if you have a 3+ save, and the Chariot gives you +1 to armour saves.....Then you have a 2+ armour save when you are in the Chariot. Thus you get an armour against AP3 weapons.


How is this being argued over?

grendel083 wrote:

FlingitNow wrote:rolling d6+1 i doubt a final result of 1 would come up often...

Except that's not how saves work.

Or the special rule. The rule, as previously stated, does not modify the roll but the save. The save is now a 2+. Notice that the rule I quoted earlier says specifically "a roll of 1 always fails." Not a result of 1 but a roll of 1. Even if the rule in question modified the result the rules say that if you roll a 1 you fail.

Praxiss on what rules are you basing your argument? You say this is how saves work but have no evidence to back your theory.

I think some of you must be trolling as you aren't stating any rules like i am.

what, like the rule where you make up that it applies to the armour save rolls?

If you armour saves are improved by 1, then if you gain multiple armour saves (entirely possible, think psychic powers) then each save gets +1

Or, you could play it that your save is worse on a chariot.

You will not, however, ever get to play that you "rolls" are improved by 1. Because the rule doesnt say that.

Because FlingItNow wants necron lords in a chariot to be immortal for some reason.

Praxiss wrote:if you normally have a 5+ cover save and you have something that says "gives +1 to cover saves" - the result is that you have a 4+ cover save.

In the case of the Chariot - if you have a 3+ save, and the Chariot gives you +1 to armour saves.....Then you have a 2+ armour save when you are in the Chariot. Thus you get an armour against AP3 weapons.


How is this being argued over?

Not sure really, it's pretty cut and dry as far as I can tell.

Now, I'm just waiting for someone to suggest a way to read it so that with a weave and on a chariot you get a 2+ save vs AP2 weapons, only losing out to AP1... (real easter egg hunting there )

I woudln't be able to give you a page number off the top of my head....

But my basis for what i said is based on.....the rulebook?

Example: Shrouded (or Stealth, can't rememeber which now) gives you +2 to your cover save. It says in the book (in the USR section) +2 means you will always have at least a 5+ cover save if in open ground. If you already have a 5+, this becomes a 3+. It does not say "add 2 to any cover saves you roll".



Either way, the point of this convo is taht you can't have a 1+ armoru save. Ever. A roll of 1 is always a fail.

Captain antivas a roll of 1 is exactly that. A roll of d6+1 gives results between 2 and 7. 1 is not possible just as a roll of 1 is not possible on 2d6. Had the rule stated a natural roll of 1 you'd have been correct.

I'm still not seeing any rules evidence that suggests that the chariot improves your save by 1. Everything points towards it giving you +1 to your armour saves instead.

No, you are trying to claim it improves your roll. With no rules to back that up.

It improves your armour save by +1. Making a 3+ armour save a 2+ armour save.

Attempting to alter your armour save ROLLS (note the new word there - the one not in the chariot rules) by +1 is cheating.

And +1 to your armour saves = improves by 1... it's been that way for the last 3 editions (and I assume it was the same in 2nd ed and rogue trader.)

Praxiss as pointed out stealth and shrouded do not say that. You must be trolling. Particularly as you mention 1+ saves and rolling a 1 always fail when neither has relevance to this debate on a 2+ save taken on a d6+1.