Units in dedicated transports that must start in reserves.

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Maelstrom808**

So this was brought up in another thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/462099.page

It basically boils down to if you take a dedicated transport that must start in reserves, how does the unit that purchased the transport interact with the rule that says you may only put half of your units in reserves.

Here are the relevant posts:

Yakface

Spoiler:

jy2

Spoiler:

Myself

Spoiler:

I'll offer another list for an example of what I'm talking about:

Overlord = 1
Overlord on CCB = 2 (possibly 1 as ICs count as 1 regardless of if they join a unit or not, but buying/embarking on a dedicated transport is not joining a unit)
Immortals in Nightscythe = Ignored
Immortals in Nightscythe = Ignored
Immortals in Nightscythe = Ignored
Warrior Block = 1
Doomscythe = Ignored
Doomscythe = Ignored
Doomscythe = Ignored

Total = 4 (possibly 3)
Cut in half and rounded up = 2 units that may go into reserves

So eligible units that may go into reserves:

Overlord
Overlord
CCB
Immortals
Immortals
Immortals
Warrior block

So you could put two of the Immortals in Night Scythes, one empty Night Scythe, and three Doom Scythes in reserves. The Warrior block, lone Overlord, Overlord on CCB, and one immortals unit would have to deploy.

**DeathReaper**

Anything embarked on a dedicated transport that must start is reserves does not count for the 50% reserves rule.

You can have 10 drop pods filled with dudes and not deploy a single unit.

**Maelstrom808**

DeathReaper wrote:Anything embarked on a dedicated transport that must start is reserves does not count for the 50% reserves rule.

You can have 10 drop pods filled with dudes and not deploy a single unit.

Rules citation, please? Not disagreeing with you just yet (as I'd love for that to be the case), but I'd like to see that statement backed up.

**DeathReaper**

Page 36. Left Column, 3rd Graph, 3rd sentence (Check the parentheses in that graph).

**Dooley**

I think YOU proved the rules needed for the Drop pods to work.

Captain*
Tac *POD
Tac POD
Tac POD
TacPOD
Dread POD
Dread POD

The Captain rides with the Tac squad in the DP, thus EVERYONE is in a Dedicated Transport that MUST Deep Strike (See aforementioned rules). THerefore you DEPLOY NOTHING then on YOUR turn 1 Drop Pod Assault your required units.

The Captain Joins the Squad Pre game (Researves rule)
All are in Deep Striking Transports (Deep Strike rulles)

The ALL FLYER TRANSPORT lists get bonned because they MUST have something on the board at the end of a game turn or else they Auto loose (PLAYING A GAME SECTION) And since Slfyers dont show up till turn two *POOF* Phase out lol (Note Phase out does NOT ACTUALLY OCCUR its a referance for emphasis

)

**Happyjew**

Nid Spore lists are just as screwed as Flyer Transport lists. Of course as it stands, right now Nids are the only army that can make a list where everything is in reserves and cannot come in til Turn 2.

**Maelstrom808**

DeathReaper wrote:Page 36. Left Column, 3rd Graph, 3rd sentence (Check the parentheses in that graph).

That works Deep Striking units, but if they are not Deep Striking and just coming in from normal reserves, it's worded differently (see Yak's post above).

**WhoopieMonster**

@Dooley, can you provide a PG for the auto loose if you've no models on the board at the end of a game turn. I can't seem to find any reference to it.

Edit: nvm. I found it, its in the Fighting a Battle section. There is actually a section called "Playing a game" misslead me completely.

**Maelstrom808**

BRB pg 122, "Victory Conditions"

**Red Corsair**

I think yak has it right. The rules are permissive and drop pods and deep strikers are the only ones given permission for that scenario. Just because a flier HAS to start in reserve doesn't mean the unit embarked HAS to as well if you had to start the game embarked in dedicated transports I would agree but you don't. It only seems redundant in the case of the NS because it is the only dedicated flier, but the transport clause was meant for all transports.

Again, as Maelstrom808 already said, you exclude all fliers from the equation and halve the remainder to find how many re allowed to reserve.

**jy2**

Here is my logic.

A flyer is a single unit, right? Even though it doesn't count towards the number of units used to determine how many units can be deployed, it is still a single unit, is it not?

Now we have:

0. "A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

So we have a flyer, which is a single unit, but which does not count towards the total because it is ignored.

Then we have a flyer and its passengers, which is also a single unit. Question is, does it count towards the total?

I believe the answer lies in "for these purposes." What does that mean, for these purposes? I believe there are 2 interpretations:

As Yakface puts it:

'A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for [the purposes of working out how many other units may do so].'

However, as I've said before, this is only partially correct. Because that is only part of the rules for reserves.

This is my intepretation:

"A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for [the purposes of working out how many other units may do so and that units that must start in reserves are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so.].'

This is the full rule for Reserves. It is a 2-part rule - 1) half of the units can be deployed in reserves and 2) units that must start off in reserves are ignored.

There is a transitive property here. And it's this:

Dedicated transport and passengers = 1 unit. Transport cannot be deployed because it is a flyer. Passengers deployed in the transport counts as 1 unit also, but because that unit is ignored for the purposes of how many to be deployed, then passengers are ignored as well.

**Dannyevilguy**

But if a game turn ends and you have no pieces on the board, you lose. So how would an all reserve list that doesn't come in until turn 2 even work?

**rigeld2**

Dannyevilguy wrote:But if a game turn ends and you have no pieces on the board, you lose. So how would an all reserve list that doesn't come in until turn 2 even work?

Hide a single model somewhere on the board.

**Maelstrom808**

Dannyevilguy wrote:But if a game turn ends and you have no pieces on the board, you lose. So how would an all reserve list that doesn't come in until turn 2 even work?

Outside of pod or demon lists, there is no such thing as an all-reserve list anymore...only "mostly" reserve lists

**Captain Antivas**

Maelstrom808 wrote:
Dannyevilguy wrote:But if a game turn ends and you have no pieces on the board, you lose. So how would an all reserve list that doesn't come in until turn 2 even work?

Outside of pod or demon lists, there is no such thing as an all-reserve list anymore...only "mostly" reserve lists

Since half of the pods (and Daemons) come in on first turn there is no risk of losing by doing it.

Edit: I misread last post.

**Maelstrom808**

Captain Antivas wrote:
Maelstrom808 wrote:
Dannyevilguy wrote:But if a game turn ends and you have no pieces on the board, you lose. So how would an all reserve list that doesn't come in until turn 2 even work?

Outside of pod or demon lists, there is no such thing as an all-reserve list anymore...only "mostly" reserve lists

Since half of the pods (and Daemons) come in on first turn there is no risk of losing by doing it.

Edit: I misread last post.

Yarp. Like I said, pod and demon lists have no need to worry. Any other list still needs to put something on the board to survive through turn 1.

**SabrX**

"A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes."

Not sure why you say one is explicitley ignored and the other is not. The term 'and' is a logical conjunction that can be true if and only if both operands are true. "A unit (Necron Warriors) and its Dedicated transport (Night Scythe) are acounted as a single unit for these purposes."

The sentence on page 124 in BRB under Reserves overides unit and their dedicated transport being considered seperate for the purposes of determining how many units are in reserves. Flyers must also begin the game in reserves.

The rule is clear as daylight. It provides an exception to the normal reserve rules. It's even in the same paragraph!

**Maelstrom808**

Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so. A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes

Unfortunately, the unit and it's purchased transport only count as a single unit (and are ignored) for working out how many other units may start the game in reserve. It has no bearing on which units may (or must) start in reserve. You are not given permission to ignore them for anything else.

Believe me, I want this to work the way you are implying. I've been planning a flyer list since last year, I finally have the money available to buy the birds, I'm set to send in my order to MM, and this thing pops up... but I just can't see any way around it.

**Lobokai**

Maelstrom808 wrote:
Dannyevilguy wrote:But if a game turn ends and you have no pieces on the board, you lose. So how would an all reserve list that doesn't come in until turn 2 even work?

Outside of pod or demon lists, there is no such thing as an all-reserve list anymore...only "mostly" reserve lists

Who believes any different? I agree, many other posts/threads have backed this up. Other than the occassional wanderer that comes in without havinge read/thought about the rules, no one is seriously saying anything different.

**DeathReaper**

Maelstrom808 wrote:
DeathReaper wrote:Page 36. Left Column, 3rd Graph, 3rd sentence (Check the parentheses in that graph).
That works Deep Striking units, but if they are not Deep Striking and just coming in from normal reserves, it's worded differently (see Yak's post above).

Preparing reserves is what you are looking for then. P.124 Left Column, 6th graph, 2nd and 3rd sentences.

A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes.

For what purposes?
for the pulposes of working out how many other units may do so.

so they are counted as a single unit. Must that unit start in reserve?
A: Yes, as a part of the unit must, they all must for these purposes. (The embarked models do not have to start in reserve, but for these purposes we count them as needing to start in reserve, because the rules tell us to count the two units as one unit).

"Units that must start the game in reserve are ignored for the pulposes of working out how many other units may do so"

So the transport, and its contents are a single unit for figuring out how many units may reserve, and part of that unit must start in reserve and is ignored for the 50%, so the whole unit is ignored for the 50%.

**Maelstrom808**

Again...you are given permission to count them as a single unit (and ignore them) for the purposes of working out how many units may start in reserve. You are never given permission to count them as a single unit for the purposes of determining which units must start in reserve.

**DeathReaper**

Maelstrom808 wrote:Again...you are given permission to count them as a single unit (and ignore them) for the purposes of working out how many units may start in reserve. You are never given permission to count them as a single unit for the purposes of determining which units must start in reserve.

The context of that sentence tells us that we ignore the embarked unit for the calculation.

**Maelstrom808**

For the calculation of the number of units that may start in reserve.

First, how many units may start in reserve:

Overlord = 1
Overlord = 1
Warriors + Night Scythe = 0 (They are counted as a single unit for being a unit and it's dedicated transport, and are ignored since the transport must start in reserves)
Warriors + Night Scythe = 0
Warriors + Night Scythe = 0
Warriors + Night Scythe = 0
Doom Scythe = 0 (Must start in reserves, so it is ignored)
Doom Scythe = 0
Doom Scythe = 0

Total = 2, cut in half and rounded up = 1.

We are done calculating how many units may start in reserve, our permission to count the Night Scyythe and Warriors as a single unit (and ignore them as a single unit) ends.

Now we can determine what actual units are going into reserves. Which units are not forced to start in reserves?

Overlord
Overlord
Warriors
Warriors
Warriors
Warriors

You may place one of these units in reserve. The Night Scythes and Doom Scythes must start in reserve, and you no longer have permission to count the warriors as a single unit with the Night Scythes, since that permission was only given for working out how many units may start in reserve.

**DeathReaper**

Unless they are embarked, then they do not count, and you may keep them in reserve aboard their Dedicated Transport.

As I said "embarked unit" is ignores as it may start in reserve aboard its Dedicated Transport.

**Maelstrom808**

DeathReaper wrote:Unless they are embarked, then they do not count, and you may keep them in reserve aboard their Dedicated Transport.

As I said "embarked unit" is ignores as it may start in reserve aboard its Dedicated Transport.

Being embarked or not is never mentioned in this. Please cite where being embarked gives you permission to ignore the embarking unit, or let it even count as one unit with the transport for anything other than reserve rolls.

**yakface**

DeathReaper wrote:
So the transport, and its contents are a single unit for figuring out how many units may reserve, and part of that unit must start in reserve and is ignored for the 50%, so the whole unit is ignored for the 50%.

I'm right up with on your logic until you get to this point, which is where you make an unsupported leap (IMHO, of course).

Just because the unit and its transport is considered a single unit for determining how many units may start in reserve and just because the transport is ignored, there is no supported reason to assume this same proviso carries over onto the embarked unit.

In other words, the embarked unit, like all units in the army MUST be counted for determining how many units may be put into reserves unless it has a rule which specifically says that it is ignored.

The transport they are riding on has just such a special rule saying that it is ignored.

We have another rule which says both the transport and the embarked unit count as only a single unit for determining how many units may start on the table...

So basically what we have is one unit (the transport and its contents) which both is ignored for calculating these purposes AND must be counted for these purposes.

Traditionally speaking, it is improper to simply assume that because a transport has some sort of ability or rule that it automatically transfers over to the embarked unit as well.

Obviously in the past GW has rules precisely this way (granting the transport the ability to Deep Strike or Outflank even when the unit inside didn't have that ability), but those were situations that needed to be FAQ'd because logically speaking there is no reason to assume that the embarked unit somehow gains the ability that the transport has access to.

In this case we HAVE an example of a rule in the rulebook which shows the proper specificity needed to make this rule work as you're saying it should (the Deep Strike transport rules), but that same level of specificity is not found in the basic reserve rules.

jy2 wrote:
This is my intepretation:

"A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for [the purposes of working out how many other units may do so and that units that must start in reserves are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so.].'

This is the full rule for Reserves. It is a 2-part rule - 1) half of the units can be deployed in reserves and 2) units that must start off in reserves are ignored.

There is a transitive property here. And it's this:

Dedicated transport and passengers = 1 unit. Transport cannot be deployed because it is a flyer. Passengers deployed in the transport counts as 1 unit also, but because that unit is ignored for the purposes of how many to be deployed, then passengers are ignored as well.

I'm confused by your interpretation of what 'these purposes' says in your expanded version of the rules quote. In an 'and' statement, both portions of it should essentially be able to be read separately, yet I cannot seem to possibly do that for the sentence you provided you above.

If I try to read the 2nd portion of the 'and' statement alone we get:

"A unit and its Dedicated Transport are counted as a single unit for [the purposes of that units that must start in reserves are ignored for the purposes of working out how many other units may do so.]."

I mean, I get what you're trying to say and obviously the nature of 'these purposes' means I can't really refute anything you claim but frankly 'these purposes' are pretty clear given the purpose being discussed is to determine how many units must start on the table.

Just to bring up what I posted in the other thread:

The whole entire point of this 50% rule can only possibly be to stop players from generally fielding armies that go completely in reserve and then deny their opponent 2 turns of gameplay, and we can see the restriction about having no models on the table in any game turn as further support of this mandate.

As I'm interpreting the rules I don't believe there are ANY army builds that can willingly put their entire army into reserve (or even close to it). Drop Pod marines & Loganwing come on the first turn. Deathwing armies come on the first turn. Daemons come on the first turn.

IMHO, at best this rule we're talking about has two interpretations (naturally I think my interpretation is the stronger), so at best you're talking about a dubious rule as a basis to clearly circumvent a rule in the game that is clearly trying to accomplish something.

If the point of the rule was really to allow players to try to get away with having one model on the table until their flyers arrive, then why not just put the restriction about the game ending if you have no models on the table at the end of the game turn and be done with it? Why bother putting the 50% reserves rule into the game at all, if you can simply circumvent it via flyer transports?

And then why bother to put a clearly defined version of the rule into the deep strike section and not include the same seven magic words that would clear this whole thing up into the basic reserves section?

Obviously it is entirely possible for GW to have screwed up not put the same explicit text into the basic Reserve rules that they did in Deep Strike because they thought it was clear. And of course if and when they FAQ this I know that I may be totally and completely wrong...but IMHO whenever there is a grey area like this, especially when you're talking about having an entire army play style dependent upon it, then players really should be sticking with the least advantageous interpretation until GW comes out and explicitly says: yeah, go for it with your all flyer army.

**Robbietobbie**

The way I see it: units that must start in reserves are ignored for determining how many units may be in reserves.. The second sentence IMHO sees to units that you have deployed. For every Unit (a unit and it's dedicated transport counting as a single unit for this purpose) you may reserve a unit along with the units that must start in reserve anyway.. So if your list was: 2x overlord on CCB and 6x5 warriors in nightscythes you could deploy only one overlord on CCB and reserve the other overlord on CCB along with the nightscythes. I don't really see the problem

**yakface**

Robbietobbie wrote:The way I see it: units that must start in reserves are ignored for determining how many units may be in reserves.. The second sentence IMHO sees to units that you have deployed. For every Unit (a unit and it's dedicated transport counting as a single unit for this purpose) you may reserve a unit along with the units that must start in reserve anyway.. So if your list was: 2x overlord on CCB and 6x5 warriors in nightscythes you could deploy only one overlord on CCB and reserve the other overlord on CCB along with the nightscythes. I don't really see the problem

its obviously okay if you disagree, but the 'problem' is that the units embarked on the Night Scythes DON'T have to start the game in reserve and therefore need a rule that specifically says they are ignored to be ignored.

Currently, some are claiming that by them counting as a single unit along with the Night Scythe this somehow grants the embarked unit the same 'ignore' status, but the rules do not explicitly say this, and furthermore on page 36 for the Deep Strike transports, we see an actual version of the rule that DOES specifically show what it would be like to explicitly apply that rule to the embarked unit.

So in your example, you actually have 8 units that don't have to start in reserve (6 warrior units and 2 Lords, which includes their CCBs), which means 4 of those have to start on the table.

**Robbietobbie**

Ah now I see what the problem is. I'd recon though that the sentence 'a unit and it's dedicated transport are counted as a single unit for these purposes' might not only see to units you have deployed (and thus allowing you to reserve more units) but also to the situation at hand. If the warriors and their doomscythe count as a single unit that would mean that the rule forcing the night scythe to begin the game in reserves would also apply to the warriors inside it (since now the rule applies to a part of the unit and thus the whole unit).
Just my two cents though because I can really understand where you're coming from.. But especially in the case of the night scythes it would be very odd because now the warriors forced to deploy outside of their transport are effectively without a transport since they can not embark upon said transport.

**SpankHammer III**

This is quite a mind bender. My gut would be to assume that the unit in the transpot gains the rule and is thus not counted. The obvious risk being that with only one model on the board if your units don't turn up quickly th war could easily be ended with one shot.

I'm basing this on other rules so I my logic is quite probably flawed. But Al'rahem and his platoon have to outflank, if you give all the squad chimeras they have to outflank as well they don't roll on from the board edge