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5th ed was a mech-meta rules edition, and I predict that 6th ed will be even moreso. This is because the new mech lists are roughly the same as the old ones, while foot lists got much worse. Because mech lists got relatively better compared to the alternatives, we'll be seeing more of them.

Foot lists have gone from being roughly equal to mech lists to being only borderline viable, for lots of reasons, but the main one is cover. Foot lists rely a lot on cover, which just got a lot worse:

- Cover now only applies to models, not to units. This means that you literally have to have something between whoever is getting shot and whoever is doing the shooting.

- Even if you mostly do this, your opponent can now use focus fire to pick out the models that don't have a cover save.

- Cover is now only 5+, not that it matters if you're not getting a save in the first place.

All this means that you're going to be taking a lot more casualties in those critical first couple of turns. This is doubly true given that Ap is actually going to matter somewhat now. Plus, in order to use cover properly, you're now going to have to bunch up more (now that some of the models can no longer give cover to the rest), which will make you much more vulnerable to blast and template weapons.

And then, of course, 6th ed crucified assault-based armies. Some units can still be good in assault (like certain HQ's and retinues), but assault based armies like power blobs and slugga tides are comprehensively finished. As basically everyone who wanted to play an assault army played a foot army, and assault armies are done, it necessarily will make foot lists in general much rarer.

Shooty foot lists obviously aren't so poorly off, but they're now going to be spending most of their time as a static gunline hiding in cover (especially since you can now buy them cover), which is bad given all the new objectives missions we got.

What about mech lists? Yes, transports got easier to kill, but it's still not bad relative to foot lists. The main reason for this is cover. While foot lists can now get dismantled piecemeal, if a transport is in cover 100% of the unit is in cover, defying the bane of foot lists. Moreover, you now only need 25% obstruction in order to gain a cover save, which means that while foot lists are now struggling to get cover, mech lists just got a boost here. Also, I'd note that because things like bolters and heavy bolters just got a fair bit better, the fact that transports makes the guys inside immune to small arms fire, actually matters. Even for marines, now that Ap will be sometimes used.

Moreover, you've got to look at mech killing power. While transports just got a little glassier, they also just got a little hammerier. Mech lists have always relied on delivering a strong alpha strike, and heavy weapons just got better across the board. Furthermore, while you can now be glanced to death, you no longer suffer ill effects from glances. You now no longer need to worry about shaken or stunned results stopping your firepower. This means that you're more likely to kill those things that threaten the vehicles, improving their survivability. While foot lists just lost, mech lists both lost and gained.

And then you have to take into consideration all that stuff that made mech lists popular in the first place. Mech lists are still cheaper to build, and faster to play, and still dovetail best with the way tournaments alter 40k. As go tournament lists, as go the masses. Also importantly, if you're a mech commander, you don't have to learn anything new, or play your list in any way different to the way you were playing it before. It's still the same army, it just got a little more extreme in its strengths and weaknesses.

Meanwhile, many foot commanders are going to have to seriously rework how they play, and adapt to being made weaker over all. Static foot gunlines haven't been all that particularly powerful since the eclipse of 3rd ed by 4th, but they're now what dedicated foot commanders are going to have to figure out how to work with. Likely, we're going to see a lot of foot commanders go back to the hybrid lists of 4th ed, wherein there was a foot component more from a desire to not have to spend points on transports than anything else.

As such, 6th ed is going to be mechier than 5th. All hail the new mech.

I see the point, what with sniping and the like also possible, but to me 6th does seem to be the age of the terminator. 2+ armour is king. If you have 10 terminators then snipe who you want the other 9 will still get you.

On mech I think that rhinos and razorbacks die too easily now as a couple of glances and they're dead when they could live through a mass of glances under 5th. Flyers though do seem to be very strong at present, although how/where flak ammo for missiles comes in can change that.

Exciting times though after the staleness of late 5th edition.

I dont think this is true. Infantry lists are likely to have alot of meat, e.g guard and orks so snipe away, theres plenty more fodder where that came from!

Basically Mech lists were all whatever anyone took in 5th editions and now mech lists are weaker(no more eldar holofield spam or razor spam lists) its forced people to diversify their lists and balanced out the entire game.

No longer do I fear facing 3 vindicators or practically unkillable eldar grav tanks thanks to being able to glance things to death.

Flyer spam lists will be the tough ones to face(ive already seen necron lists rocking around with 9 flyers...) so get hooked up with your aegis defence lines as things are going airbourne!

If you're relying on Rhinos to stay alive for the entire game, you're doing something wrong. Rhinos are meant to take Tac Squads midfield and drop them off. Granted yes, there are advanced tactics such as mobile terrain and such, but you're expecting a bit too much for 35 points.

Overall I think vehicles got hurt in some places, such as CC survivability and Plasma cannons, but got better in others, such as being able to fire weapons as snap fire and the new cover save rules(my guard can finally be a meat shield for my tanks as they have always dreamed of).

I'm not as worried about power weapons getting nerfed as everyone else is. Monstrous Creatures, plasma, melta, las cannons, and any other ap 1/2 weapon that an army can get a lot of is just as good as it was.

But then again, I'm biased.

ruminator wrote:I see the point, what with sniping and the like also possible, but to me 6th does seem to be the age of the terminator. 2+ armour is king. If you have 10 terminators then snipe who you want the other 9 will still get you.

So, just as small, durable, expensive, elite infantry units can still do close combat, so they will probably be good in other areas I'd agree. Not everyone can field mass terminators, of course.

ruminator wrote:On mech I think that rhinos and razorbacks die too easily now as a couple of glances and they're dead when they could live through a mass of glances under 5th.

They couldn't be killed by glances, but now you don't need to worry about shaken and stunned results. Now your vehicle is much more likely shooting every turn until it dies, rather than spending some amount of time stunned or weapons getting picked off before it dies.

Deathbysoup wrote:I dont think this is true. Infantry lists are likely to have alot of meat, e.g guard and orks so snipe away, theres plenty more fodder where that came from!

Infantry gain no more meat than they had before, while now being much easier to carve up.

AresX8 wrote:If you're relying on Rhinos to stay alive for the entire game, you're doing something wrong.

I suppose perhaps this new edition will cause sloppy mech players to learn to play mech better.

Will probably still be more mech players, though.

Ailaro, that was a well thought out post. Perhaps my experiences with 6th edition games have been different.

Ailaros wrote:6th ed crucified assault-based armies. Some units can still be good in assault (like certain HQ's and retinues), but assault based armies like power blobs and slugga tides are comprehensively finished.

I have gotten my ass handed to me in the past 2 games of 6th ed by assault based armies. I think as you play more, your going to find the same thing. Assault is not dead in 6th. Different yes, but not dead.

You are correct that infantry based assault armies are less effective. On the other hand, fast moving assault armies are more effective. This includes jump pack troops, calvary, beasts, and FMCs. These units can still usually get into assault on turn 2. (12" move, d6" run, 12" move, 2d6" assault)

After this first wave has hit, you can use slower assault armies to support them -- they will hit a turn or two later.

Ailaros wrote:While foot lists can now get dismantled piecemeal,

I think your not giving enough credit to the effect 50 man units have on a situation. 10 marines shooting bolters at 24" at a IG blob will kill ~4.5 guard a turn. That means, without any return fire, they will kill that blob off in 1.5 games.

Everything counts in large amounts. This same applies to boots on the table. The same thing applies to 180 orks on the table -- they are a major pain to dislodge.

I've only gotten a couple of games in so far for 6th, but I have to say that it seems that Mech got significantly better.

The new glancing rules mean that more of my tanks are going to be able to fire a turn then before. So far, since I've been able to put down threats faster, my tanks have ended up living longer then they normally would.

labmouse42 wrote: fast moving assault armies are more effective. This includes jump pack troops, calvary, beasts, and FMCs. These units can still usually get into assault on turn 2. (12" move, d6" run, 12" move, 2d6" assault). Assault is not dead in 6th. Different yes, but not dead.

Fair enough. 6th ed looks like it's biased towards "elitehammer", as in, it disproportionately buffs strong individual models and strong low-model count unit, while penalizing throngs of goobers.

labmouse42 wrote:I think your not giving enough credit to the effect 50 man units have on a situation. 10 marines shooting bolters at 24" at a IG blob will kill ~4.5 guard a turn. That means, without any return fire, they will kill that blob off in 1.5 games.

A 50-man guard blob, with no upgrades whatsoever, costs just shy of 300 points. It's not exactly fair to compare to a tac squad. More importantly, assuming that all 10 of them have boltguns for some reason, they're killing 9 guardsmen a turn, not 4.5. There's no way you're giving an entire 50-man unit cover (or really even a majority), and you can always focus fire to make sure that Ap5 actually sticks. Plus, the marines can still get into close combat, pick out the commissar, and sweep those guys they didn't kill with bolters.

And this is just small arms. Lootas now just became VERY scary to guardsmen, as have heavy bolters and lots of other shooting stuff.

Haw haw.

Now all your vehicles can be blown up by glancing hits too.

/thumbs nose at all the other armies

Ailaros wrote: There's no way you're giving an entire 50-man unit cover (or really even a majority),

Aegis Defense Line. Add Uriah Jacobus for FNP for the Blob.

Plus, the marines can still get into close combat, pick out the commissar, and sweep those guys they didn't kill with bolters.

Challenges don't work like that and you still have LOS. You can feed them sargents (you have 5) before they ever get to kill a Commissar by challenge. Precision strikes get alleviated by LOS as well.

The new assault rules on vehilces make a lot of difference though.

Hitting Dreadnaughts on WS with grenades has made walkers all but unuseable.

Hitting Skimmers on 3+ is going to kill them.

Rhinos and Razorbacks are not much worse off though.

try lilling 20 sisters of battle lead from the front by the Saint. Add Jacobus for FNP and it is very easy to walk across the board.

Add in the fact 6th is all about objectives and vehicles can do sqaut to them...= infantry based edition.

Also meltas got way better at killing tanks and hand to hand is death to vehicles. Tank hunter fliers are also a pain. And 2+ saves are the name of the game now!

Yeah, a guard blob can dismantle a vehicle easily with Straken nearby. S4 glances kill quick.

Straken and Uriah are a disgusting combo in a IG foot guard army.

pretre wrote:

Ailaros wrote: There's no way you're giving an entire 50-man unit cover (or really even a majority),

Aegis Defense Line. Add Uriah Jacobus for FNP for the Blob.

Fitting 50 dudes in a single aegis?

I hate to exaggerate, but...



That's 25 models under a single template. Frag missiles hitting 9 models per shot will also make me sad.

pretre wrote:

Plus, the marines can still get into close combat, pick out the commissar, and sweep those guys they didn't kill with bolters.

Challenges don't work like that and you still have LOS. You can feed them sargents (you have 5) before they ever get to kill a Commissar by challenge. Precision strikes get alleviated by LOS as well.

You don't need challenges. Precision strike, new wound allocation, and compulsory character movement will be good enough.

Exergy wrote:The new assault rules on vehilces make a lot of difference though.

Dreads, granted, are much worse, but everything else...

Ailaros wrote:, they're killing 9 guardsmen a turn, not 4.5.

Remember, I said 24" away. 10 shots. 2/3 hit, 2/3 kill, so 4/9 chance of killing per shot. Less if the squad has a MG or seargent with a CCW and BP. A bit more if you have a LC.

You were probably thinking of 12" away.

Remember, the guard blob also packs 5 PGs and 5 ACs. If you have cast divination on the blob, and FRFSRF on the blob, you can expect to clear out those 10 MEQ pretty quickly.
I tried the SW rune priest / blob last weekend and it put out a ton of firepower. Even after being assaulted by 12 furious charging scarabs, they still managed to kill all the scarabs. (divinations base power lets you reroll 'to hits' in assault as well) Sure the blob was 500 points, but it took nearly all my enemies focused fire/assault all game to stop it.

When he assaulted me with a lord, i just fed him a seargent, then made him break from losing the assault due to me killing 3 scarab bases.

Ailaros wrote:Lootas now just became VERY scary to guardsmen, as have heavy bolters and lots of other shooting stuff.

Lootas overall got a lot better. They also now can move and snap fire half as good as they used to. Heavy bolters are no longer 'completely useless'.

Inquisitor_Dunn wrote:
Also meltas got way better at killing tanks

Meltas got not better at killing tanks. If you need to use the hull points you are doing something wrong. Meltas will destroy a vehilce on 4+ with a pen. Same as last edition. Same chance to pen, same chance to destroy. If somehow they glanced(really low roll or over half range) they use to be able to destroy 16% of the time. Now they can only remove a hull point. Seems they got worse

Ailaros wrote:Fitting 50 dudes in a single aegis?

You don't have to be IN it. You have to have it between you and the enemy.

pretre wrote:You don't need challenges. Precision strike, new wound allocation, and compulsory character movement will be good enough.

Umm. Even with compulsary character movement and precision strike, you still have LOS and you still have 40 other guys.

I mean, don't let me break up the pity parade, but foot guard got better not worse.

Aegis defense lines can give lots of dudes cover. heck, even LRBTs get cover from them(yea 25% obscurement for a 4+ cover save)

Grey Templar wrote:Aegis defense lines can give lots of dudes cover. heck, even LRBTs get cover from them(yea 25% obscurement for a 4+ cover save)

Yeah and they are something like 20-30" long, so you can literally just set it up in front of your deployment zone and give pretty much your whole army a 4+ cover save.

Grey Templar wrote:Aegis defense lines can give lots of dudes cover. heck, even LRBTs get cover from them(yea 25% obscurement for a 4+ cover save)

5+ isn't it? Or do vehicles benefit from terrain types as well?

Chenkov could be put to use in blobs I suppose.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Aegis defense lines can give lots of dudes cover. heck, even LRBTs get cover from them(yea 25% obscurement for a 4+ cover save)

5+ isn't it? Or do vehicles benefit from terrain types as well?

Yep, vehicles benefit from terrain types.

if there's a bastion on the table and you are 25% obscured by it, you get a 3+. More commonly, ruins are 4+. There's even an example with a vehicle getting 4+ from a ruin in the book.


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Decio wrote:Chenkov could be put to use in blobs I suppose.

Umm Chenkov is a PCS. he can't be part of a blob.

Call me crazy, but Purifiers got a HUGE boost in 6th. Why? 4 Incinerators in a 10 man unit as well as their Soul fire shenanigans. Because Psykers are now harder to stop, you are more likely to get that power off, which can be done after you are assaulted. Which means you get to Overwatch (Flamer templates give d3 hits, and you have 4), you get your psychic attack and THEN blows are struck. The Purifiers could HALVE the size of a unit that assaults them before having to do combat. So, while most combat got worse, Purifiers seem to have been boosted to crazy levels.

pretre wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Aegis defense lines can give lots of dudes cover. heck, even LRBTs get cover from them(yea 25% obscurement for a 4+ cover save)

5+ isn't it? Or do vehicles benefit from terrain types as well?

Yep, vehicles benefit from terrain types.

if there's a bastion on the table and you are 25% obscured by it, you get a 3+. More commonly, ruins are 4+. There's even an example with a vehicle getting 4+ from a ruin in the book.

Wow, as much as I like 6th ed, I have to admit that that's a bit silly.
It should be 50% to get complete cover.

Wait what? Psykers are harder to stop?
They seem easier to stop than before. Back then you got no defense.
Now you have defense.

Happygrunt wrote:Call me crazy, but Purifiers got a HUGE boost in 6th. Why? 4 Incinerators in a 10 man unit as well as their Soul fire shenanigans. Because Psykers are now harder to stop, you are more likely to get that power off, which can be done after you are assaulted. Which means you get to Overwatch (Flamer templates give d3 hits, and you have 4), you get your psychic attack and THEN blows are struck. The Purifiers could HALVE the size of a unit that assaults them before having to do combat. So, while most combat got worse, Purifiers seem to have been boosted to crazy levels.

How many Purifier squads take 4 Incinerators?


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CthuluIsSpy wrote:Wow, as much as I like 6th ed, I have to admit that that's a bit silly.
It should be 50% to get complete cover.

Why? They threw vehicles a bone after the drubbing they took from hull points. MCs got 25% cover rule as well.




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Also, who in their right mind would assault a purifier squad with a big squad if they have 4 incinerators? You assault them with something else first and they OW it, then you assault with your big squad.

pretre wrote:I mean, don't let me break up the pity parade, but foot guard got better not worse.

You are kidding, right?

What makes foot guard better? The boys are dying A LOT faster then before (new cover). They have the same firepower. They will have bigger problems with CC (it is way easier to kill a commissar than it was in 5th edition). What makes foot guard better? Enlighten me...

Alright, good point with the 25% cover needed to offset the HP. Not as silly now.

Well, infantry can now fire and move heavy weapons and RF weapons to their full effect (with a Snap shot penalty for the heavy weapons), granting a greater deal of mobility.
A bunch of orks coming towards you 24" away? Move back and hose them with lasfire. Also an excuse to give everyone autocannon platforms and whatever.

pretre wrote:

Happygrunt wrote:Call me crazy, but Purifiers got a HUGE boost in 6th. Why? 4 Incinerators in a 10 man unit as well as their Soul fire shenanigans. Because Psykers are now harder to stop, you are more likely to get that power off, which can be done after you are assaulted. Which means you get to Overwatch (Flamer templates give d3 hits, and you have 4), you get your psychic attack and THEN blows are struck. The Purifiers could HALVE the size of a unit that assaults them before having to do combat. So, while most combat got worse, Purifiers seem to have been boosted to crazy levels.

How many Purifier squads take 4 Incinerators?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, who in their right mind would assault a purifier squad with a big squad if they have 4 incinerators? You assault them with something else first and they OW it, then you assault with your big squad.

Mine will.

I know a lot of people at my local store would. And it might not be perfect, but the thought of 10 men halving the size of a unit before blows are struck is just too good to pass up.

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Decio wrote:Chenkov could be put to use in blobs I suppose.

pretre wrote:Umm Chenkov is a PCS. he can't be part of a blob.

Well, if you were using conscripts it would work. But there wouldn't be any
special weapons. Oh well. Or Sergeants. Calling in the next wave would ensure
limitless meatshield reinforcements. Especially if you have multiple platoons.

Think about it: Get 50 conscripts and send out in front and follow with the Infantry Squad blobs.
Repeat multiple times. Use call in the next wave to support blobs if they haven't died yet.
Use Heavy Weapons to take down armored threats.