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Well here is the run down.

Basilisk - In 5th this was outclassed by the Manticore but still not all that good in 6th with a single shot that can just miss scattering the full 2d6 with barrage. You can character snipe in 6th and AP3 kills marines good. Still not all that great vs vehicles especially with the new damage table but Basilisk was always about killing Marines which it does better if it hits since cover is now worse.

Colossus - This got better as you can barrage with in your minimum range but scattering the full 2d6 all the time it still seems not worth it as it doesn't kill terminators and barrage misses a bit too often.

Gryphon - Its cheap and the reroll to hit is nice to counteract barrage in accuracy. Strength 6 AP4 is kinda meh doesn't do much vs vehicles and if your opponent is Marines. It is pretty cheap though.

Hydra - One of the few things with skyfire but its terrible vs ground targets. Its also likely to be the first thing the fliers shoot so not worth taking unless you face flier spams and then reserve it and hope you go second.

Leman Russ Battle Tank - Got better at shooting Marines with cover getting worse but got worse vs vehicles with the new damage table. With the nerfs to power weapons and 2+ saves all the rage might lose out to something with AP2 that kills terminators and does better vs vehicles.

Leman Russ Demolisher - Strength 10 AP2 is a good place to be insta gibbing nob bikers and paladins, punching through armor with ordinance AP2 and killing terminators. Range 24 looks to be a liability in Hammer and Anvil deployment. Single shot that can wiff and a one weapon wonder still apply. Worthy of consideration. A-

Leman Russ Eradicator - Still bad at Strength 6 AP4 single shot. Take a Griffon for less then half the points.

Leman Russ Executioner - 3 Plasma cannon shots on a Russ chassis fear it Marines and Terminators. Its still expensive. Opponent can easily spread out to avoid the small templates except when their transport just got toasted. Plasma Sponsons are a big NO now that they get hot and are expensive. Might be worth trying.

Leman Russ Exterminator - In 5th it was better to just take 2 Hydras. This might be worth considering in a mech list to put out more anti vehicle shots in the first turns while waiting for Vendettas to show up.

Leman Russ Punisher - 20 shots sounds cool till you realize its bs3 and strength 5 and they still get the armor saves. Range 24 is bad in Hammer and Anvil. It can now Glance AV11 vehicles to death and actually kill AV10 but still too expensive for what you get.

Manticore - This was the hands down choice in 5th edition with D3 Strength 10 templates but got nerfed in 6th edition. Manticores took a huge nerf in 6th having to fire barrage scattering the full 2d6. In 5th you could direct fire and get up to 3 templates on a target. Now you have to fire barrage and can easily just miss completely and if you do hit your other shots are likely to flip off. Manticores in 6th are still ok if your opponent has a parking lot or large units of infantry but not so hot if your trying to shoot an individual target with not much around it. The only exploding on a 6 unless you have AP2 or AP1 didn't help either. Might be still worth it but is on the chopping block from my list.

Medusa - Strength 10 AP2 like the Demolisher but gains 12 inches of range for weaker armor and open topped. You can close top it for more points but it still has weaker armor. It also costs less then a Demolisher even if you close top it. Bastion Breechers seems not worth it unless you see a lot of Land Raiders, Bastions and Fortress of Redemptions. Medusa with crew compartment to close top eems worth considering but AV12 front and AV10 sides makes it a huge target.

That being said I'm looking at swapping my 2 Manticores for either 2 Demolishers or if the range 24 is bad, 2 Medusas with closed crew compartment. What do you think?

Um...Manticores are still very nice against vehicles, what with full strength anywhere under the pie-plate.

Basilisks are excellent, and you seem too shaken by the scatter thing considering you're firing massive pie-plates.

Medusa's will get slapped around by anything stronger than a Krak Grenade, and Demolishers just have to get crazy close, so unless your entire force is mobile and in-your-face, they're gunna end up taking a ton of fire and maybe get 2 turns of shooting off.

The true strengths of the Griffon are twofold.

1) It's cheap.

2) It's accurate, which makes it a great "spotter" for something like a Colossus or Basalisk since the secondary guns in a battery still scatter from the original template. Take two Colossi and a Griffon and rain S6 AP3 cover denying ordnance on the deckchair unit of your choice.

The basic LRBT is still the way to go. I'm running them with heavy bolter sponsons now. You get to move 6", take 9 shots at 36", 6 of them at your full BS, snapfire the other 3, then fire your battle cannon. Complete Marine death, and even more on anything weaker. All this with AV14 on the front and a 75% chance of your big gun surviving the first WD hit. Take 3 for 510 points. Another trick is to take an ADL and put camo cloaks on the tanks, getting a 3+ cover.

I sometimes will take a Demolisher instead, and in a 2K force I could see getting really nasty and taking 6 tanks, 3 Demo's and 3 LRBT. I put a lascannon on the Demo so it can shoot first turn if nothing is within 24", and a heavy stubber for adding survivability to the main gun.

I've basically retired my Manticores, as although I love it the LRBT is just better. People always talk about d3 shots but really the average is 2 and I at least seem to get a lot more singles than I do triples. On shot is suddenly not that great if it misses. AV12 dies fast, but it certainly draws fire away from my other units. I don't have Basilisks, I've considered them for an all foot list but I haven't built them yet. The other artillery looks awfully specialized to me, and more importantly they take up HS slots I want for my tanks.

bb

Manticore can still direct fire to reduce BS scatter. Barrage only scatters full 2d6 is you are firing indirectly (cant see target, or target is within minimum range). Griffon and collosus must always fire indirectly, but every other artillery piece cant still put more accurate shells downrange.

Put a lascannon on the demolisher to give it a longer range option when advancing, and also synergize with ap2, killing vehicles and TEQ.

I'm really liking the Exterminator with HB sponsons, as it really provides a good quantity of fire in a hardy platform. With pieplates, you sometimes start running out of good targets, either due to opponent spacing models well, or just not enough models to hit (like that last pesky terminator). This decreases the amount of hits you can get with blasts, so sometimes bullets is better.

All of the artillery have viable uses now, and I see myself using them all at least once or twice to get a feel for them. They each fill a different role, and no one piece will ever be the no brainer choice. Griffons excel at low points games, where you can take a few and still have plenty of points for other stuff. Colossi wreck anything that relies on hiding in cover up to terminator armor with ease and would work great for a shooty list. Medusas make great anti TEQ, armor, and building, making them finally feel like the siege weapons they're always portrayed as. Basilisks have obscene range, high S and Ap, ability to fire directly, and look awesome. You could take any of them in a list and, if you built it with them in mind, do fairly well.

No love for the Leman Russ Punisher?

gaovinni wrote:No love for the Leman Russ Punisher?

It's not as horrible as it used to be. Still to expensive, still the range is too short. But rolling 20 dice for snapfire on a flyer is sort of interesting, assuming you don't have anything better for shooting flyers. And, of course, you do. Lot's of them. I'd like other options for that gun, beyond the Vulture. Put it on a chimera chassis for 75 points and I would be all over it.

bb

McGibs
Where does it say Manticores can fire directly without using the barrage rules in the 6th ed rulebook?

In 5th edition it said that ordiinace barrage specifically could choose to fire direct or indirect.

gaovinni
Added why Punisher doesn't make the cut.

6th says that the only time Ordnance barrages can't fire direct is when they don't have line of sight or the target is inside their minimum range.

beerbeard wrote:The basic LRBT is still the way to go. I'm running them with heavy bolter sponsons now. You get to move 6", take 9 shots at 36", 6 of them at your full BS, snapfire the other 3, then fire your battle cannon. Complete Marine death, and even more on anything weaker. All this with AV14 on the front and a 75% chance of your big gun surviving the first WD hit. Take 3 for 510 points. Another trick is to take an ADL and put camo cloaks on the tanks, getting a 3+ cover.

I agree with ^ and what ever the Russes cant kill ( Terminators ) I still have plenty of...

6 Vendetta, 3 squads of Melta Veterans :'D /evil laughter

beerbeard wrote:

gaovinni wrote:No love for the Leman Russ Punisher?

It's not as horrible as it used to be. Still to expensive, still the range is too short. But rolling 20 dice for snapfire on a flyer is sort of interesting, assuming you don't have anything better for shooting flyers. And, of course, you do. Lot's of them. I'd like other options for that gun, beyond the Vulture. Put it on a chimera chassis for 75 points and I would be all over it.

bb

In friendly games I can tell you from experience that it is damn fun (and yes expensive) especially when you go for the HB sponsons. 29 shots and S 5 seems to do something to just about anything even though about 50% of the shots miss. It is actually highly effective against small squads. It can (but is still quite a waste) kill small 2+ armor units rather well.

Basilisk: Better against tanks with the while plate being S9, and re-roll to pen. Better against infantry with the worse cover around. Better in some missions, where the range matters.
Hydras can roll up a flank spitting out a lot of snap shots. 4 S7 twin-linked and 3 S5 is decent. Yeah, you're only hitting on 6's, but you can cover some good ground. In a game where you're up against a few flyers, you'll be really happy to have them.
Russ Eradicator clears objectives suprisingly well. If AP4 is enough, it solves all those 2+ cover problems. I'd consider it as a 3rd heavy slot.
Russ Executioner: doesn't have the gets hot rule, and gives you some much needed AP2. Even if you're only touching 1 or 2 models per template, that's significant vs 2+ save opponents.
Russ Exterminator: It's a nice option if you aren't taking hydras. Good number of high strength long range twin-linked shot.
Russ Punisher: Other than snap shot spam, still over-costed and under-ranged.

The big problem is that IG heavy support can cover a lot of different rolls.
Anti-infantry, anti-cover, anti-tank, anti-flyer. You have to decided how you're going to tackle each problem with the whole army, not just heavy support.
What I have learned is that ignoring cover can make the difference between winning and losing. I'll always be packing at least 1 ignore cover option.

-Matt

Basilisk's are a big no-no if you play on a standard 4' by 4' board. 36" minimum range really hurts.

I would go 2x standard LRBT with Camo Netting behind an Aegis Defence Line and a Manticore.

Medusa's are nice if you can keep them alive.

gaovinni wrote:

beerbeard wrote:

gaovinni wrote:No love for the Leman Russ Punisher?

It's not as horrible as it used to be. Still to expensive, still the range is too short. But rolling 20 dice for snapfire on a flyer is sort of interesting, assuming you don't have anything better for shooting flyers. And, of course, you do. Lot's of them. I'd like other options for that gun, beyond the Vulture. Put it on a chimera chassis for 75 points and I would be all over it.

bb

In friendly games I can tell you from experience that it is damn fun (and yes expensive) especially when you go for the HB sponsons. 29 shots and S 5 seems to do something to just about anything even though about 50% of the shots miss. It is actually highly effective against small squads. It can (but is still quite a waste) kill small 2+ armor units rather well.

I've been defending the Punisher since 5th edition. It's a great tank, always has been.

You missed two things.

Firstly, the basilisk is way, way better than you're giving it credit for. Yes, it lost a bit against vehicles (-1 on old damage chart, but it's much easier to glance now), but it gained sniping ability (which the medusa can never do), and it can always hit vehicles on side armor (which the medusa can never do), and denies cover save to anything that isn't actually inside of area terrain (which the medusa can never do), and it can hide completely outside of LOS and still kill stuff from a position of total safety from return fire (which a medusa can never do). It's even cheaper to boot.

The medusa had a tiny niche role before of blowing up land raiders, and it has gained by now also having buildings to shoot at. The basilisk is a much better tank for most circumstances, though.

That and if you don't care about shooting at vehicles at all, the colossus just got really grand.

The other big one you're missing is the exterminator. The exterminator can move at cruising speed and fire its main weapon. It is the only russ variant that can do this. Also, it can be thuggishly difficult to kill, what with the ability to give that AV14 vehicle a 3+ cover save behind an aegis. A hydra will struggle against ground targets (which are a vast majority of your targets), and are relatively easy to kill. The hydra is now a very specialized vehicle for a very particular role. The exterminator comes out as the CLEAR victor over the hydra now, especially since heavy bolter sponsons are useful again.

Testify wrote:I've been defending the Punisher since 5th edition. It's a great tank, always has been.

So I'm not alone! I don't think I've run a single list without it since I got one. Must make a fanclub...

if you want the "best" heavy support options, I personally would go with anything that can fire indirectly. So the Basilisk, Manticore and Griffon.

The griffon is very accurate and very cheap. It fires indirectly which means that models are pulled from the center of the template. Place the template over a melta gunner/plasma gunner/character in a unit and it becomes the best sniper in the game. The same can be said about the other indirect weapons, they are just not as accurate. The basilisk AP's marines which is always worth taking. The manticore can just threaten everything on the board. Since these can hide behind buildings and still fire, they gain alot of survivability.

There are just a feth tonne of fantastic options and it depends entirely on what your army needs for what you should take. I'm a fan of the Executioner, Exterminator and Battle Tank because they work well in my current lists but i could find a place for almost any of the other HS options if i made a list they fit in

Peace Out!
Jonny!

As disgusting as manticores are now, they have no board presence, no threat range to work with and they don't have 3HP on a 14/13 hull.

Demolisher w/3HB or MM
Punisher w/3HB or MM
Exterminator w/pask

Those are the IG heavies I'll choose from this edition.

Almarine wrote:As disgusting as manticores are now, they have no board presence, no threat range to work with and they don't have 3HP on a 14/13 hull.

Demolisher w/3HB or MM
Punisher w/3HB or MM
Exterminator w/pask

Those are the IG heavies I'll choose from this edition.

There is absolutely no point in putting a MM on the punisher...

gaovinni wrote:

Almarine wrote:As disgusting as manticores are now, they have no board presence, no threat range to work with and they don't have 3HP on a 14/13 hull.

Demolisher w/3HB or MM
Punisher w/3HB or MM
Exterminator w/pask

Those are the IG heavies I'll choose from this edition.

There is absolutely no point in putting a MM on the punisher...

Now putting a multimelta on a demolisher MIGHT have a use, but that would only be if you see a lot of landraiders. One of those with multimeltas and a lascannon would be the biggest middle finger to enemy to armor every. And just to be safe, throw pask on for kicks and giggles

Still need to try pask with a punisher, x3 bolters, and a heavy stubber though. That tank setup makes me smile everytime I think about it

MrMoustaffa wrote:
Now putting a multimelta on a demolisher MIGHT have a use, but that would only be if you see a lot of landraiders. One of those with multimeltas and a lascannon would be the biggest middle finger to enemy to armor every. And just to be safe, throw pask on for kicks and giggles

Still need to try pask with a punisher, x3 bolters, and a heavy stubber though. That tank setup makes me smile everytime I think about it

I used to run it against my friend's nids. BS4 and re-rolls to wound against monstrous creatures and throws out plenty of dakka against zooanthropes/hive guard too.

Testify wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:
Now putting a multimelta on a demolisher MIGHT have a use, but that would only be if you see a lot of landraiders. One of those with multimeltas and a lascannon would be the biggest middle finger to enemy to armor every. And just to be safe, throw pask on for kicks and giggles

Still need to try pask with a punisher, x3 bolters, and a heavy stubber though. That tank setup makes me smile everytime I think about it

I used to run it against my friend's nids. BS4 and re-rolls to wound against monstrous creatures and throws out plenty of dakka against zooanthropes/hive guard too.

The punisher or the demolisher combo? Both sound like some great fun to be honest.

Also, isn't pask a character? If so, does that mean his punisher or exterminator could allocate any 6's they roll at will as precision shots?

Good thread, very interesting info coming out. Question: how does Lumbering Behemoth work in this edition?

I didn't see anything in the FAQ about it, can you move at combat and count it as 1 extra weapon that doesn't snap fire? Likewise can you claim this if cruising?

MrMoustaffa wrote:Now putting a multimelta on a demolisher MIGHT have a use, but that would only be if you see a lot of landraiders. One of those with multimeltas and a lascannon would be the biggest middle finger to enemy to armor every. And just to be safe, throw pask on for kicks and giggles

In 5th liked to use overlapping multimeltas to create death zones. The demolisher's general role makes it a good carrier, plus the ranges mesh well. Now if only russes had PotMS.

gaovinni wrote:There is absolutely no point in putting a MM on the punisher...

Well, actually I would say MM goes well on ANY russ, as the MM wall of death is there irrespective of the tank's main gun and whether or not you fire it. And the punisher still has a useful gun. Too bad about the HB shots but who really cares about those?

MrMoustaffa wrote:Also, isn't pask a character? If so, does that mean his punisher or exterminator could allocate any 6's they roll at will as precision shots?

It's not as important as it could be since he doesn't ID t4 or ignore 3+, but this is still a good question

More Dakka wrote:Good thread, very interesting info coming out. Question: how does Lumbering Behemoth work in this edition?

I didn't see anything in the FAQ about it, can you move at combat and count it as 1 extra weapon that doesn't snap fire? Likewise can you claim this if cruising?

Not sure, if I remember right, the NOVA faq rules it as one additional weapon that can be fired at normal BS along with the ordnance weapon in the turret. No such luck on the GW faq as far as I'm aware though.

My club has been confused about this ruling as well, as we have several guard players, and none of us have found a definite yes or no on the matter. We treated it as a russ that stayed still could fire at normal BS even after firing a battlecannon, but I don't believe this is right.

Didn't YMDC just have a huge thread arguing over this?

MrMoustaffa wrote:

Didn't YMDC just have a huge thread arguing over this?

If there was even the slightest room for interpretation then yes, I would assume there is a HUGE thread about it!

Ailaros
All the arty got worse overall because they are less accurate having to fire barrage and scattering the full 2d6 if not a hit even if it has LOS and the new vehicle damage table has only a 1/6 chance of explosion with none of the arty being ap2 or ap1. I found my Manticores missing an aweful lot if there wasn't a parking lot or massed troops when always firing barrage.

Exterminator seems worth considering but is the increased AV for its points premium over say an allied TL Autocannon dread worth it. I'm finding that IG has issues putting out enough anti vehicle firepower turn 1 as you have to wait for your vendettas turn 2 or later.

Almarine
Never liked sponsons on a Demolisher. You want to keep moving because of your range 24 main gun to get in range and then to avoid getting auto hit and only get use out of one of them if moving. Hull Las cannon is ok but BS3.

Punisher just seems too expensive for what it does. its even more expensive if you add Pask. It did get better vs horde orks/nids with cover getting worse but against Marines its the same.

Dunno if its worth using Pask he's so expensive and croaks if the tank dies doesn't get to hop out and commandeer another tank like that other guy. Exterminator is worth trying out dunno about HB sponsons.

I thought lumbering behemoth was obvious. At combat speed, you may fire the main gun as normal in addition to any other firing you choose to do. This means that up to 6", you can fire one weapon at proper BS, the rest of the weapons at snap fire, and then the main cannon as normal.