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If you are following the rules of the codex for an Allied detachment then you would be able to take 2 , since It does explicitly say in the SW codex that you can take 2 HQs per 1 HQ FOC slot.

So it might need clarification but can the Space wolves take two Rune Priest per single HQ slot as allies?

As of right now, the answer is a solid 'maybe'...


The Leader of the Pack rule (which along with restricting your wargear choices also grants the two HQ per slot) applies to 'Space Wolf Armies'... There is some debate as to whether an allied detachment or a force with Space Wolf allies counts as a Space Wolf army, and whether or not it actually should matter if they do or not.


Until GW FAQs it, nobody really knows. My instinct is that GW will rule that all rules that normally apply to unit selection apply to allied detachments as they would for a primary detachment, aside from the slot limits.

I see no issue with it - as you've mentioned, the Codex tells you you get 2 *units* per *slot*, and the Allies detachment gives you a slot - it doesn't tell you that you can only take one unit for that slot. Otherwise, we'd see other retinues and the like suffering such as Command Squads or Royal Courts. Not to mention Imperial Guard platoons...

Insaniak does raise a good point about whether you can class this as a "Space Wolf" army... but it's worth bearing in mind that even in the BRB, the term "army" isn't explicitly defined.

 Super Ready wrote:
I see no issue with it - as you've mentioned, the Codex tells you you get 2 *units* per *slot*, and the Allies detachment gives you a slot - it doesn't tell you that you can only take one unit for that slot. Otherwise, we'd see other retinues and the like suffering such as Command Squads or Royal Courts. Not to mention Imperial Guard platoons...

Insaniak does raise a good point about whether you can class this as a "Space Wolf" army... but it's worth bearing in mind that even in the BRB, the term "army" isn't explicitly defined.

Why would unlocked units that do not take an FOC slot suffer under allies? Taking a Farseer lets you take a unit of Warlocks without taking up two slots. So I see no issue with taking allied Farseer/Warlocks or SM Captain/Command Squad. I would agree with Insaniak, you have an IG army with allied SW units. You do not have a SW army.

Homer

Why would unlocked units that do not take an FOC slot suffer under allies? Taking a Farseer lets you take a unit of Warlocks without taking up two slots. So I see no issue with taking allied Farseer/Warlocks or SM Captain/Command Squad. I would agree with Insaniak, you have an IG army with allied SW units. You do not have a SW army.

There have been some YMDC people who have taken issue with the specific text from the SW codex. It's not really an issue with other codecies as far as I know. In any case, you can read this thread to see what has been said...

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/464701.page

Apparently, some people feel that it is abusive for SW's to take 2 HQ characters for one HQ slot on an allied FOC.

I thought it was pretty simple, an allied army is still an army of *that* codex, with it's own self contained force org chart, I don't see why anything else should really come into it.

Just because a Space Wolf army is an allied detachment, it doesn't make it any less a Space wolf army?

The issue is with the vagueness of the rules leading to doubt as to whether an allied detachment is considered an 'army' in its own right.

The thinking is that an allied Space Wolf detachment isn't a Space Wolf army... it's merely one of the two detachments that make up the army.

Going to say that is a really gak way of looking at, very un-friendly and if I was against an opponent that said 'no' to me running two in one (as the codex states) I'll tell them to jam it. Also as there is no GW definition for an army, any Force Org containing units from a given codex I would call an army.

I think in a nut shell, this is a bit that is allowing people to be rule-lawyers and the fact is (as people have said) it's a choice you pay for, it isn't free.

I'm with you TheTrans . But you'll find many users on Dakka who specifically hunt for conflicts, vagueness and lack of specificity in the various rules with the express purpose of limiting everyone's options. In my experience here on Dakka, the Space Wolf codex gets a lot of this kind of attention - particularly since the 6th edition roll over where it is virtually guaranteed that wording of passages in the rulebook will cause unintended issues with the codex.

As for this particular issue - while it is still unresolved as far as I know - our interpretation probably isn't in the minority.

But also, the Leaders of he Pack rule (p81 SW Codex) is a note attached to the HQ slots of the standard Force Organisation Chart.
A chart which, if SW are taken as Allies, isn't even used.

You can worm and weasel and rules lawyer all day long, you would still be wrong. I am using a SW army, even as an allied detachment. Are they a collection of units chosen from Codex: Space Wolves? If the answer is yes then they get all the benefits of all rules in their codex, not just the ones you like and are ok with having to fight against.

 Captain Antivas wrote:
You can worm and weasel and rules lawyer all day long, you would still be wrong. I am using a SW army, even as an allied detachment. Are they a collection of units chosen from Codex: Space Wolves? If the answer is yes then they get all the benefits of all rules in their codex, not just the ones you like and are ok with having to fight against.

But it's still a rule for an HQ chosen from a standard organisation chart (p81), which an ally force doesn't use.
The Leader of the Pack rule isn't a blanket "2for1 on HQ slots".
Forget the argument of "is it an Army or not", Leaders of the Pack is attched to a chart which, as an ally, isn't used.

You are making up rules. It is not attached to any FoC. In a Space Wolves army each HQ slot can be filled with two HQ choices. With an allied detachment I am taking a Space Wolves army and I have 1 HQ slot to fill, which can be filled with 2 HQ choices. Stop putting arbitrary limitations that don't exist.

Contrary to your belief it is written to be exactly what you said it is not. It is a blanket 2 for 1 deal. Like it or not, it is what it is.

 Captain Antivas wrote:
You are making up rules. It is not attached to any FoC. In a Space Wolves army each HQ slot can be filled with two HQ choices. With an allied detachment I am taking a Space Wolves army and I have 1 HQ slot to fill, which can be filled with 2 HQ choices. Stop putting arbitrary limitations that don't exist.

Making up rules? No, just looking in the Codex.
Where is the rule "Leaders of the Pack" found?
Page 81 in a large box labeled "Standard Missions"
There then follows the standard organisation chart. Followed by:
HQ*
*Leaders of the Pack
Am I wrong? Am I making that up? Is it found anywhere else?

It is directly tagged onto the HQ of a standard chart. Is an ally using a standard chart?
Standard Missions. Standard Force Organisation chart.

Agreed.

Let's read the Rules...We have Codex : Space Wolves which says

Codex : Space Wolves, P. 81

In a Space Wolves army, each HQ 'slot' allow you to take up to two HQ choices. This means that in a standard mission a Space Wolves army may take one, two, three or even four HQ choices. This represents the constant presence of heroes determined to burn their name into legend.

However, packs of Space Wolves work best when led by a single dominant personality, each hero respected for his own abilities. To represent this, no two ( HQ ) characters may bear the same saga, nor may they bear the same psychic powers or wargear combination. Space Wolves are far too individual and proud for such unimaginative tactics.

I put the parentheses around the HQ in the second paragraph to take into account the clarification provided by the Space Wolves FAQ. (page 6 of the FAQ)

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2420319a_Space_Wolves_6th_Ed_V1.pdf

About what an army is - and thus what a "Space Wolves Army" is, the 6th Edition Rulebook which says

P. 109 of the BRB under the heading allied detachments

If you wish, your army can include one allied detachment for each primary detachment in your army (normally one, but if you're playing a larger game this might be two). As with the primary detachment, all units in the allied detachment must be chosen from the same codex, and this must be a different codex to the one used for the primary detachment.

That means that your army consists of the combination of BOTH detachments. Hence your army consists of units chosen from one or two codecies.

However, there is also this blurb from the BRB...

As detailed in each army's codex, all the forces you can use are categorized to tell you something about the roles they are meant to play in the army.

Which is really unfortunate because it uses the word "army" with two completely different meanings. In the first use, each detachment is an army because they are chosen from an "army's codex". In the second use of the word, they use army to mean all of the units you put on the table.

So now we have to answer the question, "What is a Space Wolves Army?" There are three possible answers.

1) Any army that includes at least one detachment from the Space Wolves codex. (The broadest interpretation)
2) Any army whose primary detachment is from codex Space Wolves. (Middle of the road)
3) Any army whose entire list comes from codex Space Wolves. (The strictest interpretation)

However, the rules really don't support answer number 2 at all. Of all of the rules in both the BRB and the codex, nowhere does it refer to the army as being the primary detachment. It refers to the combination of both detachments as an army and it refers to each detachment (being chosen from one "army's codex") as an army. Therefore, we're left to pick between option #1, or option #3. My vote is for option #1, because it is the interpretation that requires the fewest number of exceptions.

 Grugknuckle wrote:

Let's read the Rules...We have Codex : Space Wolves which says

It's not just what the rule says... Context is also relevant. Look at where the rule is.

 grendel083 wrote:

It is directly tagged onto the HQ of a standard chart. Is an ally using a standard chart?
Standard Missions. Standard Force Organisation chart.

Well from that point of view I'll have to ask is a primary detachment using a standard FOC? No it isn't. Therefore, leaders of the pack does not apply to primary detachments either? So now my rune priests don't have to have different wargear and psychic powers as long as I take an allied detachment.

You're saying that "Leaders of the Pack" only applies for standard missions? So if it's an apocalypse game, I don't have to have different wargear?

No...That doesn't really come out right does it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And besides...What is the big deal? If your opponent wants to have two SW characters in an allied detachment, he still has to pay points for them - and they ain't cheap either.

 Grugknuckle wrote:
Well from that point of view I'll have to ask is a primary detachment using a standard FOC? No it isn't. Therefore, leaders of the pack does not apply to primary detachments either? So now my rune priests don't have to have different wargear and psychic powers as long as I take an allied detachment.

If using allied Space Wolves, Leaders of the Pack wouldn't effect the FOC anyway, as You're not using a SW FOC.
For an allied detachment, only one HQ slot is allowed anyway, so duplicate wargear isn't an issue

You've missed my point. Your argument is that the leaders of the pack rule is only used for standard missions. If you're correct, then I don't have to obey the leaders of the pack rule for wargear when we play a non-standard mission - like an apocalypse game, or patrol mission or whatever. I don't think that's consistent.

The easiest (and best) way to resolve this is to just know that Space Wolves can always take 2 HQ choice per HQ slot on the FOC with the caviat that their wargear and psychic powers etc. must be unique.

 Grugknuckle wrote:
You've missed my point. Your argument is that the leaders of the pack rule is only used for standard missions. If you're correct, then I don't have to obey the leaders of the pack rule for wargear when we play a non-standard mission - like an apocalypse game, or patrol mission or whatever. I don't think that's consistent.

That's exactly what I'm saying.
Apocalypse and Patrol games don't exactly follow the rules at the best of times.
All I ask is you look at Page 81. Where is the rule found?
In a big box labeled "Standard Missions". Added as a Note attached to the HQ on a standard FOC. I'm not wrong on its location am I?
If a non-standard mission is being used, the rule simply doesn't come into play.
Same as if the the FOC isn't being used, as with allied detachments.

It's location, no. It's meaning, yes.

 Captain Antivas wrote:
It's location, no. It's meaning, yes.

Please explain.
I'm more than happy to be proven wrong, but I'm not seeing it.
If you're not using a Standard Mission, or using the Standard FOC, then there's no permission to use that rule.

According to your logic Grendel no Space Wolves Army can ever take advantage of the rule in question. Even if the primary detachment is Space Wolves they can only have 1 HQ per HQ slot. Congratulations, you just broke the codex!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 grendel083 wrote:

 Captain Antivas wrote:
It's location, no. It's meaning, yes.

Please explain.
I'm more than happy to be proven wrong, but I'm not seeing it.
If you're not using a Standard Mission, or using the Standard FOC, then there's no permission to use that rule.

I have already. You refuse to see it.

The problem is that you can play a standard mission with allies now. That is - a standard FOC now has an allied FOC and a fortification slot on it.

So we're back where we started.

 Captain Antivas wrote:
According to your logic Grendel no Space Wolves Army can ever take advantage of the rule in question. Even if the primary detachment is Space Wolves they can only have 1 HQ per HQ slot. Congratulations, you just broke the codex!

Then you're not getting my logic.
If you're using Space Wolves as the primary force, the rule would absolutely be used. I've not said different.
If you're using another army with a SW allied detachment, you're not using their standard FOC chart, so Leaders doesn't come into play.

The BRB makes it clear that the Standard FOC INCLUDES the allied FOC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Side note : grendel083 , how did you do this?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/321627-.html?m=2

 grendel083 wrote:

 Captain Antivas wrote:
According to your logic Grendel no Space Wolves Army can ever take advantage of the rule in question. Even if the primary detachment is Space Wolves they can only have 1 HQ per HQ slot. Congratulations, you just broke the codex!

Then you're not getting my logic.

I am not sure that you understand the implications involved with your own logic.

If you're using Space Wolves as the primary force, the rule would absolutely be used. I've not said different.

You don't have to say it specifically. Your logic leads us down that road.

BRB Page 109 tells us what to do when your FoC does not have Allies or Fortifications. You refer to the chart in the rulebook. So, if you are not using the Codex FoC and using the BRB version the Leaders of the Pack rule is not present so we don't get to use that rule. Like I said, you broke the codex.

If you're using another army with a SW allied detachment, you're not using their standard FOC chart, so Leaders doesn't come into play.

You are still using a Space Wolves army, as Greg has already pointed out. There are two definitions of the word "army". You have to look at the context to decide which applies.

 Grugknuckle wrote:
The BRB makes it clear that the Standard FOC INCLUDES the allied FOC.

Well I admit I missed that, and concede my point.
Although that does then bring up the point that Leaders rule has only been applied to HQ slots (compulsory and optional) on the primary detachment, and as yet has not been included on the allies HQ. Weaker point I know, but one that should be brought up and discussed. Page 81is quite clear on which slots Leaders is applied to, and as yet the allied HQ isn't one of them.

Side note : grendel083 , how did you do this?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/321627-.html?m=2

The flame? It's some copper rod, with small clay marbles glued around it. Bit of greenstuff to fill the gaps.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Captain Antivas wrote:
BRB Page 109 tells us what to do when your FoC does not have Allies or Fortifications. You refer to the chart in the rulebook. So, if you are not using the Codex FoC and using the BRB version the Leaders of the Pack rule is not present so we don't get to use that rule. Like I said, you broke the codex.

Point taken.
In which case, yes I think the rule is broken.
If you don't use the Codex chart the rule isn't applied anywhere, and there's no mention of if it is applied to an Ally HQ. It's a mess.

 grendel083 wrote:


The flame? It's some copper rod, with small clay marbles glued around it. Bit of greenstuff to fill the gaps.

Very nicely done. It looks perfectly Orky.

 Grugknuckle wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:
The flame? It's some copper rod, with small clay marbles glued around it. Bit of greenstuff to fill the gaps.

Very nicely done. It looks perfectly Orky.

Thank you
Wanted the model to inspire thoughts of WAAAGH!