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2012/09/03 19:30:22
Subject: Double-Feature! Tzeentch Daemons vs Nob Biker Orks + Necrons vs Triple-Raven Blood Angels (Competed)
SabrX dropped by my place over the weekend and we had ourselves 2 games. Both of us were trying out some new stuff.
I wanted to try out my new Tzeentch daemons, with screamers and flamers. He wanted to try out his new Nob Bikers. That was game 1.
For game 2, he wanted to try out his triple-stormraven BA list against my GT crons. I was happy to oblige, but because I hadn't built my 5th scythe yet, I just added another Destroyer Lord and more wraiths. So here we have 4 scythes versus 3 ravens. A whole bunch of wraiths versus FNP assault terminators and assault marines. This should be an interesting match.
BTW, I am riding a 2-game winning streak against SabrX. However, before that, I lost to him 3 straight! He's beat my daemons before, and he's actually done so not once, but twice. However, he has yet to beat my necrons, both in 5th and in 6th.
This is an extension of my GT necron list. Going from 1500 to 2000, I wanted to add another night scythe. However, because I didn't finish building it in time for this battle, I just opted to throw in more wraiths instead.
2000 Blood Angels
We used the dakkajet as a proxy for the 3rd stormraven.
How many lawyers does it take to change a light bulb?
-- Fifty-Four -- Eight to argue, one to get a continuance, one to object, one to demur, two to research precedents, one to dictate a letter, one to stipulate, five to turn in their time cards, one to depose, one to write interrogatories, two to settle, one to order a secretary to change the bulb, and twenty eight to bill for professional services.
2012/09/03 22:41:33
Subject: Double-Feature! Tzeentch Daemons vs Nob Biker Orks + GT Necrons vs Triple-Raven Blood Angels
You have ruled this galaxy for ten thousand years
Yet have little of account to show for your efforts
Order. Unity. Obedience.
We taught the galaxy these things
And we shall do so again.
4500 pts
2012/09/04 13:57:56
Subject: Re:Double-Feature! Tzeentch Daemons vs Nob Biker Orks + GT Necrons vs Triple-Raven Blood Angels
Daemons: I'm not really sure which way this game is going to go. My opponent's got 2 very dangerous deathstar units whom I really want nothing to do with in assault. Only my screamers stand a chance against them in assault and that is if I get the charge and have the protection of Fateweaver. Otherwise, I think his nob bikers can potentially overwhelm any of my units in assault, and even if they don't, he's got 60 ork boys that can back them up. Also, orks have very under-underrated firepower. Despite his poor shooting, my opponent can sure put out a lot of dakka. I can't under-estimate his shooting lest I see any one of my squads wiped out by it. Yes, his shooting has the potential to do that. And with his nob bikers, my opponent's got good mobility as well. I can't expect to dance around his units like I can some other armies. His only disadvantage is that his bikers can't go up ruins. Fortunately for him, there was only 1 ruins in the entire map and we ended up playing 5 objectives. Finally, my opponent has much, much more resilient scoring units than I do. Besides his warbosses, his entire army is composed of sturdy, resilient troops.
On the other hand, my firepower is just downright scary. I can potentially wipe out 1 mob of 30 boyz in a single volley with my flamers if he packs them close to each other. I can also potentially cripple or perhaps even wipe out an entire unit of nob bikers with my flamers if I can get them into good flamer range (and if they are bunched up). My ranged shooting is decent though its range is somewhat limited (but then again, so is ork shooting). As for assault, the only dedicated assault unit I have are the screamers. They are deadly, however, they are only 1 unit. Even if I can get the charge off and hurt his biker, I need to be careful of his counter-charge as it can really hurt me. So with regards to assault, the orks should have the advantage here. With regards to mobility, with jump infantry, jetbikes and a flying monstrous creature, I've actually got more speed than my opponent. However, my troops are slow and weak. Worse yet, in a multiple-objectives game, I'm going to have to put them at risk in order to get to the objectives. Fortunately, for me, my opponent may be too pre-occupied with my "non-scoring" units to go after my troops, or at least so I hope. Because if he does, they are going to fold faster than you can say "supercalifragiliciousexpialidocious".
Anyways, without much experience in my new army, I'm going to say this game is going to be almost a coin flip. It's going to be a game of cat-&-mouse and can really go either ways depending on who gets the first offensive action.
Fortunately for me, I get them and everyone comes in without mishap, though a couple do scatter.
I decide to just run my forces. The screamers move flat-out (I just love their flat-out move).
Orks 1
Spoiler:
SabrX advances his orks cautiously, making sure to keep them spread out and trying to stay about 18" away from me.
The orke horde cometh!.....slowly. Bet that must be a first.
He then decides to throw caution into the wind. I guess he decided not to play the cat-&-mouse game and instead is trying to force the action.
I hope he really is as confident as he seems. At least his guys are spread out to try to limit my flaming ability.
Ork boys then run.
Daemons 2
Spoiler:
All of my reserves come in.
I try to aim 2 units of horrors onto the objective in the ruins but they both scatter off. Doh!
I deepstrike 1 unit of horrors deep into his deployment zone to force his boys to go back to deal with them.
The last unit of horrors deepstrike into my right deployment zone for the objective. They are there also to force my opponent into a decision - go after my squishy troops near the objective or my nasty flamers?
But before he can make the decision, he has to survive my onslaught. Fateweaver zooms forwards. Both unit of flamers go afte his right nobs (with Warlord). Screamers after his left nobs to hopefully try to tie them up.
BTW, my left flamers won't all be able to fire their Breath of Chaos.
Horrors shoot down 6 ork boys.
After shooting from both units of flamers and the pink horrors, the nob biker unit is reduced to just 2 power klaws and the warboss, all of whom are wounded. My opponent makes the mistake of having his painboy near the front of the unit and he gets wiped out.
Fateweaver breaths, gazes and tries to spawn a biker from the left squad. Spawning fails, but he does put 2W on the nobs.
Screamers then assault. Thanks to Fateweaver, they only take 1W to Overwatch fire.
After 36 S5 AP2 attacks (!!!), I only manage to put 4W on 4 bikers plus 2W on his warboss. He doesn't even lose a single model yet, though everyone except the painboy now has a wound. Wow, that was not what I had expected at all. I thought I would have done a lot more damage than that. In return, he kills 3 screamers (they are 2W apiece). If not for Fateweaver, it would have been worse.
Orks 2
Spoiler:
His nob bikers decide to go after my horrors instead. His Warlord breaks off from the unit and moves back with the boys.
Orks decide to advance instead of going after my horrors in his deployment zone.
Only a few is in range to shoot and they take down 2 horrors.
However, his other unit of shoota boyz fire at Fateweaver. All of them happen to be within range so that's 60 shots. He rolls better than normal and I believe 7-8 successfully manages to wound. After re-rolls, Fateweaver fails only 1 save....but more importantly, he fails his LD and goes back into the Warp!!!
However (again), even without Fateweaver, my screamers roll well with their attacks and my opponent rolls poorly on his saves. Just like that, his nob bikers get swept!
Finally, his unit of 2 nob bikers charge my pink horrors. They fail the Fear test and we both don't do any damage at all!
Daemons 3
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 3.
Screamers go after his boys.
Flamers go after his other boys.
Their shooting wipe out 19 boys.
The other unit of flamers fires Daemonic Gaze and kills 6 boys.
Screamers then assault his boys. The combination of Overwatch and ork attacks kill off 4 screamers. Ouch!!! That's how you beat daemons....with volume of attacks.
Screamers kill 6 orks in return.
In the nob biker-pink horror combat, once again the nobs fail their Fear test and we both stay stuck in combat with no wounds to each other.
Orks 3
Spoiler:
Boyz go after my troops rather than my flamers. I believe shooting takes down 2 horrors.
His Warlord runs the opposite way and hides.
Orks win combat yet again.
For the 3rd straight combat, his nob bikers fail their Fear test.
Daemons 4
Spoiler:
Overview of the top of Turn 4.
Flamers go after his boys.
Flamers are just waiting for the combat to finish and for some BBQ.
Horrors make it to the objective.
Boys get wiped out.
Orks finally finish off my last screamer.
Combat rages on. Despite failing his 4th consecutive Fear test, I believe he puts 1W on my Warlord (the Herald on disc).
Orks 4
Spoiler:
Orks go after my horrors. My opponent still has a very slim chance of getting the draw and in order to do that, he needs to be able to kill off my troops.
Combat continues to be a stalemate.
His boys assault my horrors rather than shoot them (upon my recommendation). However, assault goes terribly bad for him as he fails to kill a single horror!!!
Daemons 5
Spoiler:
Flamers go after his nob bikers and Warlord as well as to protect my horrors on the central objective.
My other flamers prepare to assault.
That's all she wrote.
I finally kill off 1 biker in assault.
Orks 5
Spoiler:
Just for sh*ts and giggles, his Warlord assaults my horrors in order to try to kill my Warlord.
He succeeds in wiping out my Warlord and we call the game there.
SabrX has got all 3 bonuses - First Blood (Space Chicken), Linebreaker (Warlord and nob biker) and Slay the Warlord for +3 VP's.
I've only got 1 bonus point - Linebreaker. However, I've got 3 objectives - on top of the ruins, the center and in his deployment zone for a total of +10 VP's.
Daemons: I was pleasantly surprised with the performance of my daemons. The new screamers and flamers are really nasty. I thought I would have more problems with the nob bikers, but the new Tzeentch units came through and just obliterated them (though in all fairness, the dice played a part in the screamer-biker assault).
My strategy for them is the same as my strategy for my Maximum Threat Overload necrons - just throw a lot of threats at my opponent all at once and force him to make some difficult decisions. Put a lot of pressure on the opponent. Almost every unit in my army is a threat. The screamers and flamers are a threat for their immense offensive capabilities. Fateweaver is a threat because he is a force multiplier that just makes the army so much harder to kill. In my mind, he is the glue that bonds the army together. Even the pink horrors are a threat, at least to his objectives. The decision they force the opponent to make is this....should he kill the squishy troops on the objectives or my ultra-killy nasties? In order words, play the mission or play to eliminate the threats?
With that said, I think it's better to have more threats in the army. By breaking up my screamers into 2 units and the flamers into perhaps 3 units, I think the army would be even more dangerous. However, due to the lack of models, I decided to leave my list the way it was instead of using proxies (I did proxy 1 model).
Another strategy you have to watch out for is the timing of your offense. In most cases, it's best to present it all at once (unless your opponent just doesn't have the tools or firepower to deal with deathstars). That's what I did. That's what my opponent didn't do. If SabrX hadn't played so aggressively, I probably would have waited with my onslaught until the right moment where I could pounce with almost every threat at once. However, my opponent advanced his bikers without the backup of his ork boys (they were a little too far behind and would take possibly 2 turns to make their counter-attack). Basically, he made the decision quite easy for me....just focus on his 2 biker squads and deal with the boys later. Had he presented a more united front, the decisions would have become a lot tougher for me. It's all about forcing your opponent into making tough decisions and that's what a coordinated assault with maximum threat does. Both my daemons and SabrX's orks are Maximum Threat armies which was why I thought this would be a cat-&-mouse game with the victor being the one who gets his offense going first. Also, when it comes to running MTO (Maximum Threat Overload) armies, I probably have the experience advantage as my opponent normally plays a more traditionally shooty army (Tau, mechdar, Sisters) whereas I play typically more aggressive armies (MTO necrons, daemons, tyranids).
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2012/09/16 13:24:46
Great report - as a matter of form you mention Screamers have 2 wounds each, I thought they remained 1 wound models with Flamers going to 2 wounds.
Could you comment (maybe you will in the post game) a bit on the different playstyle for this Daemon list versus 'traditional' assault oriented Daemon lists?
Wacky game Jy2! I was surprised the left Nobz Biker unit survived shooting from two Flamer units. I expected them to get wiped out.
IIRC, I failed 6/7 fear tests in combat between Pink Horrors and Nobz. Screamers are ridiculous with their new rules. Apparently, flamers are decent in assault.
In hindsight, I should have baited with my two Boyz unit and have my Nobz counterattack. It's my third game playing Orks, so I have a lot to learn.
calypso2ts wrote: Great report - as a matter of form you mention Screamers have 2 wounds each, I thought they remained 1 wound models with Flamers going to 2 wounds.
Could you comment (maybe you will in the post game) a bit on the different playstyle for this Daemon list versus 'traditional' assault oriented Daemon lists?
Both screamers and flamers went up to 2 wounds apiece however they also lost their 4+ invul and now only have the standard 5+ one the rest of the daemons have.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm surprised you are using Fateweaver in a 1500pt game. For the cost of fateweaver you could have added in 9 more screamers and the masque.
I would really advise looking into getting pavane's in your list if you are using the flamers. The ability to force your opponent to clump up or pull stuff to your flamers on a bad drop is invaluable. I myself love the masque but for those that find her too fragile the blue scribes are an okay second choice.
The more you play with flamers in 6th the bigger the benefit of the new feel no pain is shown. That alone massively increased survivability for units against the flamers (which is a good thing considering their cost now).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/09/04 21:09:49
2012/09/04 23:40:18
Subject: Double-Feature! Tzeentch Daemons vs Nob Biker Orks + GT Necrons vs Triple-Raven Blood Angels
Dang, I wish I had the White Dwarf for this, I went to two stores locally to pick it up the week after it dropped (was away on business) and they were all sold out.
That list is slightly more balanced than my list (with more threats). It is something that I am working more towards. However, due to the lack of screamer models (only have 9 currently), I decided to just make it 1 large squad and compensated by having slightly larger units of flamers (I have 15).
I didn't make it (bought it off ebay), but it's made of I believe particle board (the very thin one) with the runes etched in and the larger plastic rune glued on.
calypso2ts wrote: Great report - as a matter of form you mention Screamers have 2 wounds each, I thought they remained 1 wound models with Flamers going to 2 wounds.
Could you comment (maybe you will in the post game) a bit on the different playstyle for this Daemon list versus 'traditional' assault oriented Daemon lists?
Thanks and sure, I'll comment on its playstyle in my Post-game.
Both the Flamers and Screamers got buffed tremendously in the WD. They are studs now and many consider them the new "Fiends". They'll both cheaper than fiends, have just as much mobility (more for the Screamers as they are jetbikes), arguably more killing power with Breath or S5 AP2 attacks and just as much resiliency (Screamers are probably more resilient with their turbo-boost jink saves and the ability to get to LOS-blocking terrain with their 24" turbo). Moreover, Flamers have got decent shooting even if they are out of Breath range and Screamers can do sweep attacks with their turbo-boost.
SabrX wrote: Wacky game Jy2! I was surprised the left Nobz Biker unit survived shooting from two Flamer units. I expected them to get wiped out.
IIRC, I failed 6/7 fear tests in combat between Pink Horrors and Nobz. Screamers are ridiculous with their new rules. Apparently, flamers are decent in assault.
In hindsight, I should have baited with my two Boyz unit and have my Nobz counterattack. It's my third game playing Orks, so I have a lot to learn.
I lost, but atleast I got Space Chicken.
Well played Jy2.
Yeah, it was kind of wacky. I was surprised you actually played as aggressively as you did with your nob bikers. You probably exposed a little too much of your right squad (from your perspective, the left squad who got flamed by my flamers). If you could have baited me with just 2 models exposed (that is, with only 2 models where all my flamers can hit), then you probably would have been much better off. But I felt that you went a little too far forwards with that one unit.
The battle between the screamers and your left nob bikers actually exceeded my expectations. With Fateweaver dead, I thought that your bikers would eventually grind out my screamers with attrition, but the dice just wasn't in your favor in that combat as I attacked first and made most of my attacks/wounds while you failed most of your saves/FNP.
I believe your nob bikers failed 5 Fear tests and your warboss failed 1 so again, dice wasn't on your side in that game. Yeah, flamers are much improved in assault. I'd still try to avoid assault with them, but they can hold their own against normal squads.
I don't know about trying to bait me with your boys. They were just way too slow compared to the bikers and I would have seen that coming from a million miles away. I would have just kept my distance and shot them up with warpfire from the Flamers and force you to retreat them. Instead what I think hurt you is that you were a little too aggressive with your bikers. You moved them too far forwards to the point that it would've probably taken your boys 2 turns to try to make the counter-charge. And the Arena of Death you were hoping to use to protect the bikers from my flamers and screamers actually probably back-fired. As jetbikes, they didn't stop my screamers at all and probably protected them from your ork boys counter-attack instead.
Yeah, overall we are both inexperienced with our armies. I think with more experience, we shall both get better.
calypso2ts wrote: Great report - as a matter of form you mention Screamers have 2 wounds each, I thought they remained 1 wound models with Flamers going to 2 wounds.
Could you comment (maybe you will in the post game) a bit on the different playstyle for this Daemon list versus 'traditional' assault oriented Daemon lists?
Both screamers and flamers went up to 2 wounds apiece however they also lost their 4+ invul and now only have the standard 5+ one the rest of the daemons have.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm surprised you are using Fateweaver in a 1500pt game. For the cost of fateweaver you could have added in 9 more screamers and the masque.
I would really advise looking into getting pavane's in your list if you are using the flamers. The ability to force your opponent to clump up or pull stuff to your flamers on a bad drop is invaluable. I myself love the masque but for those that find her too fragile the blue scribes are an okay second choice.
The more you play with flamers in 6th the bigger the benefit of the new feel no pain is shown. That alone massively increased survivability for units against the flamers (which is a good thing considering their cost now).
I'm still new with this daemon build. I will probably be tinkering with it and trying different combos. I do run the Masque on occassions and can see the synergy. However, believe it or not, I was actually trying to keep it themed by running pure Tzeentch. Also I lack the models for another unit of screamers at the moment.
But honestly, I still see Fatey as probably the best HQ for this list. My concern really isn't my offense. 8 flamers will pretty much kill most units dead, bunched up or not. Only the most resilient of deathstars may survive them and in that case, try surviving 16 flamers and a screamer assault as well! Rather, my concern is that, even with wound allocation gimmicks, it is still a soft list that can die fairly easily to volume-of-fire. In that regards, I need Fatey for survivability. Not only for his re-rolls but for the fact that he is just a bullet magnet. He just makes my units much, much more survivable.
I think at 2K, the list that I will migrate more towards is Nick Navanti's (yermom here on dakka) Nova-Open daemons. He's got it spot on with Fateweaver, 3 units of flamers, 4-5 troops, 3 units of screamers and 2 pavane daemon princes (or perhaps 1 pavane and 1 bolt).
calypso2ts wrote: Dang, I wish I had the White Dwarf for this, I went to two stores locally to pick it up the week after it dropped (was away on business) and they were all sold out.
Guess there's always ebay or trying to find the PDF's online.
Guess there's always ebay or trying to find the PDF's online.
I ended up taking the e-bay route last night - I have a tourney coming up and I really need the actual rules to play in it, and I couldn't bring myself to torrent a pdf copy. I really wish they offered downloadable WD content.
I agree with your assessment of Screamers - I wish I had more than 9, but they were more a novelty in the past - at least I was able to cannibalize a few from Tzeetch Chariots. The only advantage I see for Fiends with respect to Screamers is their Fleet makes them slightly faster for assaults and I5 lets them avoid combat casualties for large units.
Daemons: I was pleasantly surprised with the performance of my daemons. The new screamers and flamers are really nasty. I thought I would have more problems with the nob bikers, but the new Tzeentch units came through and just obliterated them (though in all fairness, the dice played a part in the screamer-biker assault).
My strategy for them is the same as my strategy for my Maximum Threat Overload necrons - just throw a lot of threats at my opponent all at once and force him to make some difficult decisions. Put a lot of pressure on the opponent. Almost every unit in my army is a threat. The screamers and flamers are a threat for their immense offensive capabilities. Fateweaver is a threat because he is a force multiplier that just makes the army so much harder to kill. In my mind, he is the glue that bonds the army together. Even the pink horrors are a threat, at least to his objectives. The decision they force the opponent to make is this....should he kill the squishy troops on the objectives or my ultra-killy nasties? In order words, play the mission or play to eliminate the threats?
With that said, I think it's better to have more threats in the army. By breaking up my screamers into 2 units and the flamers into perhaps 3 units, I think the army would be even more dangerous. However, due to the lack of models, I decided to leave my list the way it was instead of using proxies (I did proxy 1 model).
Another strategy you have to watch out for is the timing of your offense. In most cases, it's best to present it all at once (unless your opponent just doesn't have the tools or firepower to deal with deathstars). That's what I did. That's what my opponent didn't do. If SabrX hadn't played so aggressively, I probably would have waited with my onslaught until the right moment where I could pounce with almost every threat at once. However, my opponent advanced his bikers without the backup of his ork boys (they were a little too far behind and would take possibly 2 turns to make their counter-attack). Basically, he made the decision quite easy for me....just focus on his 2 biker squads and deal with the boys later. Had he presented a more united front, the decisions would have become a lot tougher for me. It's all about forcing your opponent into making tough decisions and that's what a coordinated assault with maximum threat does. Both my daemons and SabrX's orks are Maximum Threat armies which was why I thought this would be a cat-&-mouse game with the victor being the one who gets his offense going first. Also, when it comes to running MTO (Maximum Threat Overload) armies, I probably have the experience advantage as my opponent normally plays a more traditionally shooty army (Tau, mechdar, Sisters) whereas I play typically more aggressive armies (MTO necrons, daemons, tyranids).
Thanks for showing us the upgraded Daemons in action. Eager to try my new and improved Tzeentch stuff along with my new Plaguebearer models. Great tactical analysis as well. Looking forward to seeing the Flyer on Flyer action in the next report as well. Your reports almost always provide an insight into one of the armies I play (or a similar style) so I appreciate the opportunity to learn a bit about 6th while not being able to get many games yet in the new edition. I don't push the competitive envelope with my lists but seeing you guys go head to head with tough lists is very informative. Thanks!
7K Points of Black Legion and Daemons 5K Points of Grey Knights and Red Hunters
2012/09/05 18:49:45
Subject: Double-Feature! Tzeentch Daemons vs Nob Biker Orks + GT Necrons vs Triple-Raven Blood Angels
Great game! Love seeing the themed army actually. I think you were able to keep it all pure Tzeentch and competitive! I am glad the demons are looking more lethal here in the early phase of 6th. Would like to see that list face up against your GK for some real fluff action lol!
I'm still new with this daemon build. I will probably be tinkering with it and trying different combos. I do run the Masque on occassions and can see the synergy. However, believe it or not, I was actually trying to keep it themed by running pure Tzeentch. Also I lack the models for another unit of screamers at the moment.
But honestly, I still see Fatey as probably the best HQ for this list. My concern really isn't my offense. 8 flamers will pretty much kill most units dead, bunched up or not. Only the most resilient of deathstars may survive them and in that case, try surviving 16 flamers and a screamer assault as well! Rather, my concern is that, even with wound allocation gimmicks, it is still a soft list that can die fairly easily to volume-of-fire. In that regards, I need Fatey for survivability. Not only for his re-rolls but for the fact that he is just a bullet magnet. He just makes my units much, much more survivable.
I think at 2K, the list that I will migrate more towards is Nick Navanti's (yermom here on dakka) Nova-Open daemons. He's got it spot on with Fateweaver, 3 units of flamers, 4-5 troops, 3 units of screamers and 2 pavane daemon princes (or perhaps 1 pavane and 1 bolt).
I don't find myself playing against a lot of deathstars these days and mainly see my army spread out a lot more which means that fateweaver can't support the majority of units, plus I always hate it when paying him and his wave doesn't come in (which seems to happen more often than not). I haven't been running the wound allocation tricks on the flamers mainly because it seems like for the price of the herald you can get another 3-4 flamers (depending on upgrades). I really like taking full squads of 9 flamers, getting to place two models on the outside of the circle usually means i can get 5 sometimes 6 flamer templates off on the deepstrike. I also use the slashing attacks on the screamers a lot more than I thought I would. The only real problem I've run across with the daemons is flyers. There just is not a points effective way to deal with them with daemons so I've adopted the strategy of ignore them. This past weekend I played in a 3 round tournament plaing against 2 guard and a necron army. All told I played against 3 vendettas, 2 vendettas, 2 scythes/dakkajet. I failed to kill a single flyer the entire day and still ended up taking best general out of about 30 people so the strategy seems to be working. Luckily I didn't run into any gunboat storm ravens, or triple dakkajet combinations (i did see triple raven and triple dakkajet).
2012/09/05 23:33:20
Subject: Double-Feature! Tzeentch Daemons vs Nob Biker Orks + GT Necrons vs Triple-Raven Blood Angels
Warmaster wrote: I don't find myself playing against a lot of deathstars these days and mainly see my army spread out a lot more which means that fateweaver can't support the majority of units, plus I always hate it when paying him and his wave doesn't come in (which seems to happen more often than not). I haven't been running the wound allocation tricks on the flamers mainly because it seems like for the price of the herald you can get another 3-4 flamers (depending on upgrades). I really like taking full squads of 9 flamers, getting to place two models on the outside of the circle usually means i can get 5 sometimes 6 flamer templates off on the deepstrike. I also use the slashing attacks on the screamers a lot more than I thought I would. The only real problem I've run across with the daemons is flyers. There just is not a points effective way to deal with them with daemons so I've adopted the strategy of ignore them. This past weekend I played in a 3 round tournament plaing against 2 guard and a necron army. All told I played against 3 vendettas, 2 vendettas, 2 scythes/dakkajet. I failed to kill a single flyer the entire day and still ended up taking best general out of about 30 people so the strategy seems to be working. Luckily I didn't run into any gunboat storm ravens, or triple dakkajet combinations (i did see triple raven and triple dakkajet).
Yeah, against flyers, there's really not much you can do about them. The policy I'vd adopted towards flyers is to just ignore them as well. How you beat flyers is to have resiliency in your army to the point that you should be able to survive their airstrike. There's where Fateweaver comes in. I think that without him, my units won't really be able to survive the onslaught of a mainly flyer army (I'm talking about necrons with 5+ scythes). It's not a full-proof plan as they can still try to shoot down Big Bird first, but at least your opponent will have to waste a lot of firepower against Space Chicken. And every turn where he is not focusing on your core units is a turn where you are closer to victory (or at least to not getting tabled ).
The slashing attacks of the screamers are pretty cool. However, I don't find myself using it very often mainly because I almost always want to try to get the assault with them instead (with a few exceptions). If you sweep attack the opponent, that means more often than not that he is in a good position to assault your screamers, especially if he has any sort of assault units. Otherwise, he will just shoot them down and that is not really what you want, unless your flat-out move can land you to safety behind some LOS-blocking terrain.
As for Fateweaver builds, you want to keep them together until it is time to pounce. Then you split them up. And with Fatey being a FMC, flamers being jump infantry and the screamers being jetbikes, you've actually got a huge threat range even if they are together. But ultimately, playing a Fateweaver build is a playstyle that perhaps not all will enjoy playing. If you like to play a more spread-out daemon build, then it's perfectly fine to take other units instead of Big Bird. He is a good HQ, but there are many different builds in the book that can arguably be just as good and more importantly, more suitable to one's playstyle.
BladeWalker wrote: Thanks for showing us the upgraded Daemons in action. Eager to try my new and improved Tzeentch stuff along with my new Plaguebearer models. Great tactical analysis as well. Looking forward to seeing the Flyer on Flyer action in the next report as well. Your reports almost always provide an insight into one of the armies I play (or a similar style) so I appreciate the opportunity to learn a bit about 6th while not being able to get many games yet in the new edition. I don't push the competitive envelope with my lists but seeing you guys go head to head with tough lists is very informative. Thanks!
No problem. Part of the reason I like doing these reports is that I like to showcase my findings regarding which units are good or which units aren't good and the synergy between them and the armies. I think it is informative and useful information for the readers, especially to those who are thinking about running such units.
And while I enjoy competitive games, I think showing off these units in competitive games provide a wealth of information. If I use such units in casual games against casual players, then it's sometimes hard to judge how such units will do against more competitive armies. However, using these units against already competitive builds provides a good benchmark that can be scaled down to even the more casual games. You get to see how they perform against the really good armies and hopefully can get a better idea of how they play. Then when you go up against less competitive armies, it's easier to just scale down (for example, use just 1 unit of flamers instead of 2) so that the fight is more even.
I should be starting the next batrep a little later today.
Red Corsair wrote: Great game! Love seeing the themed army actually. I think you were able to keep it all pure Tzeentch and competitive! I am glad the demons are looking more lethal here in the early phase of 6th. Would like to see that list face up against your GK for some real fluff action lol!
Yeah, I'm going to try to go a little more themed in my battles if I can help it, though they will still be competitive ones. I think with the new Tzeentch units (screamers and flamers), it's easier to run a fluffy competitive army because IMO, Tzeentch is now the strongest daemon build. Of course, my list isn't fully optimized but just pure Tzeentch will be able to handle most armies out there.
Necrons: If this was still 5th Edition (5E), I would probably say that my necrons would have the advantage but now in 6th Edition (6E), I don't know. That was because in 5th, I would just get into assault with his units and his Sanguinary Priests, being Independent Characters, could be singled out in combat. Thus, I would kill him and stop FNP fairly easily. Now in 6th, that is no longer the case as you can't single out those annoying Priests. While it's true that you can issue a challenge to them, they don't have to accept. Now, FNP is more annoying than ever as it is much harder to stop.
FNP nowadays is a blessing and a curse to my crons. It is a curse because now a model with FNP will get to use it even against my rending and warscythe attacks. It is a blessing because it is now only a 5+ against my normal attacks whereas back in 5E, it was a 4+. However, the fact that it is now much harder to get rid of (i.e. to kill the Sang. Priest) means that basically for the entire game, my opponent will be playing with 2 saves (or with 1 save when he should have none). I guess you could say that is an equalizer for my wraith wound allocation shenanigans.
However, SabrX's assault terminators are especially dangerous to my army. If there's anything that would kill my wraiths quickly, it's TH/SS termies. But not only are they deadly against my wraiths, but they will kill my Destroyer Lords as well due to the lack of invulnerable saves on them. And to top it off, assault termies with FNP are really hard to kill. I'm better off trying to avoid them, though I may not have a choice. While I don't think I will beat them in combat (especially not with his assault marines backing them up), if I had to, I probably could tie them up for a few turns with 1 unit of wraiths. Then I could try to kill off his troops with my other wraiths. So in the battle of the ground forces, I can't really say who would come out victorious. One thing I can say for sure is that I need to respect his assault terminators and marines. They are a deadly combination and if I am not careful, I may quickly end up with a lot of dead wraiths.
As for the battle of the skies, he's got 3 flyers to my 4. However, his flyers are more resilient and have the better initial firepower. But more importantly, my opponent is going 2nd. That means he will get the alpha strike on my flyers. I'd say my opponent should have the advantage in this aerial dogfight.
I think this will be another cat-&-mouse game. We've both got aggressive assault armies. But this time, it isn't the one who gets the initial assault who will probably have the advantage. Rather, I think it is the one who gets the counter-assault who may have the advantage. Because I think the counter-assault will hurt more than the initial assault.
I think overall, my necrons may still have a slight advantage. And the advantage is that my wraiths are scoring in this scenario. Thus, I've got 7 scoring units to his 3-6 (depending on how many units he combat squads). With them being scoring, I have options. I don't necessarily have to play them as aggressively as I normally do. Instead, I could bide my time and "confront" his forces later in the game. Then when all his units are tied up by my wraiths, I can sneak my weaker troops onto the objectives and try to steal the win. Hey, I never said necrons weren't a finesse army.
But I really hope the Blood Angels take it..no offense Jy2 but I havent read many battles lately where the Necrons lose and I think they are due for a beating
Money Can't Buy Happiness... But I`d Rather cry in a Ferrari
2012/09/08 14:46:07
Subject: Re:Double-Feature! Tzeentch Daemons vs Nob Biker Orks + GT Necrons vs Triple-Raven Blood Angels
I apologize, but I've been real busy as of lately. However, I promise the report will be done today.
A couple of notes regarding the game.
1. This was played before the new (v1.1) FAQ's came out.
2. We played it that if a night scythe blows up, the unit within just goes back into reserves without taking damage. This is in accordance to the Golden Throne GTFAQ, which we used as a FAQ for our rulings.
Map of the terrain. Basically, we left it the same as the previous game.
Here's a closer look at the 6 objectives. BTW, we did not play Mysterious Objectives simply because we forgot about it.
Our warlord traits. I get a good one with my Warlord being scoring.
My deployment. Foot warriors in reserves.
SabrX's deployment. He decides not to combat squad.
We then roll for the objectives. I get 3-pts, 3-pts and 2-pts on my side of the board. My opponent gets the 4-pts, 2-pts and 1-pt objectives on his side.
2 units of wraiths (with both D-lords) go towards the opposite flank.
This is sort of a risky tactic because I am dividing my forces. However, I want to force my opponent to make a decision with regards to his terminators. I want them to commit to 1 flank.
Shooting with my annihilation barge (AB) manages to only kill 1 assault marine. FNP is rough!
Wraiths run.
Blood Angels 1
Spoiler:
My opponent is playing conservatively. He doesn't commit his terminators to either flanks, though he does move out his left assault marines to try to bait my left wraiths. Basically, his forces stay together, which is a smart play on his part.
Bolt pistols put 1W on my left wraiths.
Necrons 2
Spoiler:
I get 1 doom scythe and 1 night scythe in from reserves.
So does 1 unit of warriors.
I pull a move that catches my opponent slightly off-guard. I join both D-lords to the same unit to make 1 huge deathstar. I then circle around his terminators, making sure to just stay on the peripheral of his threat range.
The other unit of wraiths swings back to help out the left wraiths.
The combined shooting of my 2 scythes take out 3 assault marines and 3 terminators. I am actually disappointed in my shooting as I was expecting to kill more assault marines (both scythes were targeting the assault marines).
I just cannot resist and take his bait. My wraiths assault his marines. I am hoping to try to gain an early advantage by destroying his scoring units, even at the expense of my scoring wraiths (hey, I've got 8 scoring units to his 3). His overwatch (with bolt pistols!) put another 1W on my wraiths.
However, assault goes horrible for me as I only manage to kill 1 marine. In return, he kills my wounded wraith. Damn FNP!
Blood Angels 2
Spoiler:
His librarian casts Prescience (re-rolls to hit) on his terminators (or was it his assault marines? I forgot).
1 raven comes in from the left.
The other raven comes in from the right. SabrX has learned his lesson to not bunch up his flyers. The last time he did that against me (when he brought 3 vendettas), I killed 2 of his birds in 1 shot with my doom scythe's deathray.
My plan backfires on me as he now commits his forces towards the left flank. He moves everyone there, thus taking my right deathstar out of assault range (will now need 2 turns to make it into combat with them!).
Red raven blows up my doom scythe! He also gets First Blood.
The blast scatters onto our assault marine-wraith combat. I think it does 1W to my wraiths.
1 unit of assault marines fire at my middle wraiths with their bolt pistols and meltas. My saves are atrocious as I lose 3 wraiths and take 1W on the 4th to his shooting!!!
Assault terminators then make it into assault. Fortunately for me, his assault marines already in combat block off some of his terminators so not all of them will get to fight.
I am fortunate to only lose 2 wraiths while killing 2 assault marines.
But after his terminators pile in, next turn will probably hurt much more. As a matter of fact, I don't see my wraiths surviving another round of combat.
Necrons 3
Spoiler:
My other unit of warriors come in.
However, neither of my blasted scythes come in!!!
My Double-D wraithstar advances.
My middle wraiths advance and get ready to pounce.
My night scythe flies off the board.
Shooting by my AB doesn't do anything.
I believe my wraith takes 1W from Overwatch fire as I attempt the charge (it turns out that I need about 11" to make the charge).
Middle wraiths assault his marines.
I kill 1 assault marine. They hold in combat.
Whoa...I actually survive combat here. I am down to just 1 wraith left. However, I manage to kill 1 assault terminator and 1 marine!
Blood Angels 3
Spoiler:
His librarian casts Prescience again. He would continue to cast it each and every round.
His last raven comes in. He then moves his flyers.
Assault marines go to help out his other assault marines.
1 raven, due to the lack of models on the board, fire at my warriors, killing 3. They fail morale and fall back.
His other 2 ravens fire everything that they can at my wraithstar. He only manages to drop 1 wraith.
In assault, I don't do any damage due to FNP. My opponent then drops 2 wraiths.
In the other assault, he finishes off my lone wraith and gets +1 VP for wiping out the unit.
His guys then consolidates towards the Arena of Death.
So far things, things aren't looking too good for my crons. I'm down 1 doom scythe. I've lost 1 unit of wraiths, with another unit just down to 1 model left. And my opponent has basically his entire army still intact. I need to have something go my way or it may well be game over very soon.
Necrons 4
Spoiler:
It's not over til its over. I still have a lot of fight left in me.
I'm not sure if my opponent realizes this (or maybe he just forgot), but my flyers automatically come in on Turn 4 and now I have a sweet shot with my doom scythe.
My 2 night scythes will go after his other raven. BTW, one of my night scythes got immobilized (velocity locked) earlier on.
Wraiths go on the offensive. I split off my Warlord solo to go after his assault marines in the Arena. My plan for him (my Warlord) is this. He assaults the assault marines. They pile in around him, thus protecting him from the terminators. Meanwhile he is contesting the arena objective, and if he should happen to kill off the unit, then he would be claiming the objective.
The 2 night scythes fire at his raven. They take off 2 Hull Points (HP's) as well as one of its guns (I believe the multi-melta).
The doom scythe and my annihilation barge then combine to strip 2 HP's from 1 raven and 1 HP from the other. I believe I also take out the lascannon on the closer bird as well. My opponent decides to evade with one of his ravens.
One of my own teslas arc into combat, killing my lone wraith and giving my opponent another +1 VP. He is now up by +3 VP's (First Blood, 2 units of wraiths down) and his assault marines consolidate away from my Warlord.
I then assault both units of assault marines.
My Warlord issues a challenge to his Sanguinary Priest. He declines. Mindshackles and the warscythe then kill 4 marines. Fortunately for me, they stay.
The other combat doesn't go as well for me as I would have liked. He makes his FNP's here and only loses 2 marines while killing off 1 of my wraiths.
Blood Angels 4
Spoiler:
His assault marines (down to just 4 models) go after my troops.
Ravens go after my night scythes. They last raven flies off the board.
Assault termies go after my wraithstar instead of my Warlord.
Ravens manage to blow up 1 scythe.
Assault marines then shoot at and assault my warriors. I actually win combat by 1! (Either that or my Overwatch fire kills 1 assault marine.)
Now for the main event. His terminators assault my wraithstar. BTW, his terminators have re-rolls to hit due to Prescience.
My D-lord issues a challenge to his terminators. He accepts with their sargeant.
Again, his own assault marines are blocking off some of his terminators and again I am really fortunate in this battle as I make all but 1 wraith invuln save against his hammers. My D-lord kills his terminator sergeant. MSS goes off, but he removes the mindshackled sergeant before he had a chance to attack his own unit. We stay locked in combat.
My Warlord continues to issue a challenge and his Priest continues to decline. I kill another 2 marines.
Necrons 5
Spoiler:
My last night scythe goes and drops off its troops onto an objective (the 4-pt one!). Doom scythe flies past his stormravens.
The deathray is devastating this time and takes out both ravens!
His priest declines my challenge once again and my Warlord kills another 2 marines.
Both my wraiths and his FNP continues to hold strong. I only manage to kill 1 assault marine and he only manages to insta-gib 1 wraith.
Finally, he is slowly winning the combat with my warriors.
Blood Angels 5
Spoiler:
His last raven comes in and goes after my last doom scythe.
The multi-melta finishes off my doom scythe.
We then go straight into assault, where his marines finish off my lone warrior and consolidate towards the 3-pt objective.
Only his Priest remains after combat.
I defy the odds and make every single save against his hammer attacks. I then kill off 4 of his assault marines.
BTW, every turn I would issue a challenge and every turn he would decline, thus taking his librarian out of the fight.
Also, all his characters have the Red Thirst and so are Fearless.
At this point, I've got a 2-pt and a 4-pt objective. He's got a 3-pt objective with his 3-man assault marine squad. We've both got Linebreaker and neither has the Warlord. He's also got +3 VP's for First Blood and killing 2 of my Fast Attacks. Thus we are currently tied.
We roll to see if the game continues and it does.
Necrons 6
Spoiler:
Both my warriors and night scythe comes in. My warriors were supposed to come in last turn but I totally forgot about them. They both go after his assault marines on my objective.
My warriors and AB go after his last raven. It's only got 1 HP remaining.
Combined shooting by my warriors in rapid-fire mode and the night scythe takes out his assault marines.
That should be game there.
Warriors and AB then take out his stormraven.
He finally manages to kill 1 wraith. I also kill 1 terminator. More importantly, my opponent just cannot free himself from this assault.
Finally, my Warlord finishes off his Sanguinary Priest.
Blood Angels 6
Spoiler:
We call the game here as there is no way my opponent can win, not with my incredible late-game rally .
The arena objective is barely contested by his last assault marine.
I've got the 4-pt objective.
As well as the 2-pt objective.
I think I've got Linebreaker, but since I didn't really check, I'll just assume I didn't. So I've got a total of 6 VP's.
The Blood Angels have First Blood and he's killed 2 of my Fast Attacks. He might have finished off my last wraith as well on his Turn 6 (we did quickly do that combat) but I don't quite remember. I'll just assume that he did.
Necrons: I must say that this game was a much tougher battle than the results would indicate. It just isn't easy to kill FNP marines, especially those FNP terminators. With the exception of the doom scythe deathrays, my opponent was getting FNP against all my attacks....and I couldn't even reliably take out his sources of FNP! Assault BA has just become better overall in 6th.
The choice of a triple-raven list was an interesting one. Against a flyer or mech-heavy list, the extra firepower does help. But personally, I would take no more than 2. There was a time when I didn't have any flyers on the table and during that time, his 3 stormravens really didn't do much. They just killed a couple of warriors and couldn't penetrate the invuln of my wraiths. That's 600 pts of firepower there that is overkill and inefficient against normal infantry. I think the key to his army is more FNP assault marines. I'd rather swap out the 3rd unit of stormraven (and perhaps 1-2 terminators) for 1 more unit of assault marines. I'd also try to get some fists in there, though against my MSS lords, they wouldn't really help much (I'd just challenge them). But in a TAC list, fists are invaluable, at least in a couple of squads. More importantly, however, was the fact that my opponent just didn't have enough scoring units. Despite the early beating I was taking, I easily locked up his troops so that they couldn't make it to the objectives. I didn't even need to kill them really, just to immobilize them so that my scoring MSU troops can swarm the objectives.
As for my wraithwing, it isn't particularly balanced as well. I would probably throw in another night scythe at 2K and more troops as opposed to more wraiths or the 2nd D-lord, but at the time, I didn't have my 5th scythe completed yet. I was even considering swapping out 1 doom scythe (+ change) for a night scythe and another annihilation barge as well. I want to incorporate more shooting into my TAC list.
In the game, I set out to do what I wanted to do, and with a little bit of luck at the end, I think I achieved my goal. My strategy was to ignore his deathstar initially and go after his troops. Then lock up his deathstar later in the game after I have dealt with his troops so that they can't go rampaging around. I had a much harder time trying to achieve this than I had thought, but the fact that I had 8 scoring units gave me a huge advantage. Because now he can't just ignore my wraiths and go after my troops. Because my wraiths are scoring, he had to go after them. The durability of the wraiths almost matched the durability of his troops and both ended up tarpitting each other. That worked in my favor as I still had troops able to go after objectives while all his ground units were tied up.
My D-lords were beastly in this game. I actually learned how tough they are after my last battle against Janthkin. 8 grey knights with nemesis force weapons against his normal Overlord and I still couldn't win combat! The D-lord, being T6, is even tougher than the Overlord. I knew one of those guys could take on an entire unit of assault marines just by himself. The trick was to protect him from a terminator counter-assault. But as for the MVP, I'd have to give it to the unit of wraiths who tied up his terminators for the rest of the game.
Blood Angels: (by SabrX)
The first half of the game went well. Two Wraith units gone, three of my scoring units were in tack, took out a Death Ray, and my Storm Ravens were all still a live. Then it started going down hill. My Storm Ravens got demolished by the Night Scythe and remaining Doom Scythe. Destroyer Lords are T6 and 2+, making them extremely hard to kill. In fact, Jy2's Warlord solo and defeated a full squad of Assault Marines + Sanguinary Priest without help. Jy2's last Wraith Unit made an unbelievable number for 3++ against my Thunder Hammers. The second Destroyer Lord made mincemeat against anyone he was in contact with. He kept issuing challenges, leaving my Librarian out most of the right. Combat locked my units for the rest of the game, allowing Jy2's Warriors to finish off my small Assault Marine units and grab high value objectives.
Luck certainly played a huge factor in this game. It swung in my favor the first half, but swung in Jy2's favor in the second half. Unbelievable! A single unit of Wraiths and two Destroyer Lords takes on two Assault Marine units and Assault Terminators, all with FNP! Believe me when I say Destroyer Lords or any Lord is a one many army. Lesson learned, give the Sanguinary Priest a Power Fist. Sergeant can answer challenge and IC have high survivability thanks to 'Look out sir!'
Mission and Warlord trait was definitely in Jy2's favor. There's just too many objectives and all but two of Jy2's scoring units have high mobility. Yet another reason why Jy2's 2K variation of his 1.5k tournament winning list reigns supreme. His list easily adapts to most missions.
Overall, I really like fielding triple Ravens. If it weren't for Jy2's single Doom Scythe being delayed a turn, I might have won the air battle. I made a huge mistake parking two of my Storm Ravens next to each other. Next turn, Jy2's Death Ray took out both. Storm Ravens definitely have enough fire power to rival that of Tesla Destructors. Plus, they are extremely effective against elite ground targets. It's also great having Power of the Machine Spirit enabling Storm Ravens to shoot at a second target.
This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2012/09/10 16:08:10
Ouch, Necrons aren't doing so well... kind of what I expected to happen, but I figured the Wraiths would at least be able to win a couple combats. The dice seem to have turned on you this game jy2!
Great game so far, in his turn three he should have used his fliers to block your death stars movement though. Doing this would have denied you the charge and bought him another turn. I wonder how the FAQ would have changed strategies, if you were able to re embark in your NS. Doesn't look like the death ray ruling would have changed much of anything. Also I have to give SabreX credit he is definitely improving as a player from when you first started these, or maybe he is really finding his mark in this edition. Good stuff fellas!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andilus Greatsword wrote: Ouch, Necrons aren't doing so well... kind of what I expected to happen, but I figured the Wraiths would at least be able to win a couple combats. The dice seem to have turned on you this game jy2!
Curse of the GT, after I won my first and my brother his the dice gods took a steaming dump on us LMAO! Superstitious I know but it never seems to fail!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2012/09/08 19:25:39
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
Karak Hirn Dwarfs - 2500 
Bet that must be a first. 
7K Points of Black Legion and Daemons 
5K Points of Grey Knights and Red Hunters 
