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So I was thinking about making a squad of rough riders to go along with my Tallarn. The GW models are a little pricey and awkward, so I planned on converting mine, but that's another matter entirely. It is looking to be quite a project, with school and work and all, and I'm wondering if they're even worth it. I would be using them with a mech vet list utilizing an outflanking Al'Rahem and an astropath. Are they worth spending the time, money, effort, and points to get? If so, how should I use them?

No.

Duly noted.

No, they are not worth it. However I would give the motorcycles!

What makes them so worthless exactly?

You can't assault out of reserves, meaning they run onto the board somewhere, get all shot up and then are almost completely worthless.

Ah, I should really get a 6th ed rulebook, I didn't know that one -_- That's what I get for leaving the game for two years lol

I was planning on getting a squad to hide behind artillery as a counter assault unit. With the new rules there is no way to get a first turn assault or to assault from reserves. If you are still keen then check out Victoria lamb's miniatures for mounted legs.

Give you A scenario? I'll give you THE scenario.

You have a large piece of terrain that blocks LOS and is near an objective, and your opponent doesn't have any deepstrikers or outflankers or very fast units like jetbikes, or fliers.

You start them out on the board completely hidden. When your opponent gets close to the rough rider trap, you run out and nail it with hunting lances.

Unless what's approaching them is I6 or has a 2+ save or has an invulnerable save, or has any serious capabilities in overwatch (charging against flamers is a strict no-no), or is a land raider or a flier.

If all of these conditions are true, then you can probably make some decent work out of a single squad of rough riders. If not, you're just going to have to wait until the next guard codex comes out.

Armies on Parade. Best use of rough riders.

Rough riders work nicely with mechanised forces because they can hide behind the chimeras and russes. They are either entirely out of view or they get a decent cover save. In that situation its probably a good thing if your opponent starts shooting them with troops they have dropped into your rear line, because it means they aren't shooting the rear of your tanks

Also given the charge range of rough riders its unlikely that they will catch a lot of small arms fire, unless you've failed your charge. Adding meltas can also help with any land raider problems that may arise.

They are fairly decent on the charge if you give them Kamir they are str 6 int5 and have an additional 2 attacks on the charge as well as 10 additional str3 attacks so a unit of ten on the charge with kamir has 30 plus attacks more than enough to obliterate a tac squad give them plasma or melta and they can nuke transports. On the flipside they are incredibly squishy T3 5+ save means everything apart from Ork shootas and lasguns are cutting through your armour which means overwatch is going to drop one or 2 riders, the models themselves are tall making it difficult to get a decent cover save although you do have move through cover or ignore difficult terrain (can't remember which) and finally they take a fast attack slot and with the vendetta costing about the same as a 10 man squad with 2 plasmas. But in the end they have their place several of my opponents have been suprised by the amount of hurt they can dish out its a personal choice in the end i like them i have a full squad of the Tallarn riders and they look awesome on the table all i can say is try them out hug cover and try to divert attention away from them as a guard player that shouldn't be to difficult

 Ailaros wrote:
Give you A scenario? I'll give you THE scenario.

You have a large piece of terrain that blocks LOS and is near an objective, and your opponent doesn't have any deepstrikers or outflankers or very fast units like jetbikes, or fliers.

You start them out on the board completely hidden. When your opponent gets close to the rough rider trap, you run out and nail it with hunting lances.

Unless what's approaching them is I6 or has a 2+ save or has an invulnerable save, or has any serious capabilities in overwatch (charging against flamers is a strict no-no), or is a land raider or a flier.

If all of these conditions are true, then you can probably make some decent work out of a single squad of rough riders. If not, you're just going to have to wait until the next guard codex comes out.

This makes me sad. It's so true, but for a unit I think is hilariously cool.

You can tell how highly GW thinks of rough riders by their continued awful rules in every book and never getting a model update.

Best use of them is putting them in your collection so people can ask "Horses?! in the far future?"

In a tournament, a squad of them assaulted my tactical squad, and the Tactical squad went on to annihilate the entire squad with snap shots. The squad charging them had no casualties. Completely wiped out.

Kirasu wrote:You can tell how highly GW thinks of rough riders by their continued awful rules in every book and never getting a model update.

Best use of them is putting them in your collection so people can ask "Horses?! in the far future?"

To be fair, though, they USED to have a role. They used to be a unit that you kept in reserve and were able to threaten half the board with a huge pile of attacks that ignored armor saves without your opponent getting the ability to shoot at them first.

Now none of that is true, thanks to 6th ed.

It's more 6th ed's fault than it is a problem with rough riders. We'll just have to wait for a new codex to see if they become worth taking again.

I wonder if they can be used as a fast way to move melta.

Vets or command squads in chimeras are probably better, but not as fast.

Charging is hard to do regardless of the units you use. Especially t3 units that can be torn apart or burned by overwatch.

Nothing is more frustrating than having a few overwatch casualties and failing a charge.

Actually, stormtroopers are better. 10 horses with Sv5+ running into the enemy's guns to deliver 2 BS3 melta shots aren't as good as 7 guys with Sv4+ that can deliver their 2 BS4 melta shots directly into melta range without being attacked first, and often on side or rear armor to boot.

And stormies can just land and shoot stuff, they don't have to worry about taking dangerous terrain just by moving through cover or having to worry about a poor assault roll or overwatch.

Plus, they now both have Ap3 weapons, so not as much loss by taking hellguns now either.

 Ailaros wrote:
Actually, stormtroopers are better. 10 horses with Sv5+ running into the enemy's guns to deliver 2 BS3 melta shots aren't as good as 7 guys with Sv4+ that can deliver their 2 BS4 melta shots directly into melta range without being attacked first, and often on side or rear armor to boot.

And stormies can just land and shoot stuff, they don't have to worry about taking dangerous terrain just by moving through cover or having to worry about a poor assault roll or overwatch.

Plus, they now both have Ap3 weapons, so not as much loss by taking hellguns now either.

I didn't say they would be the best option in this role, but perhaps a way to use them for someone who is hellbent on using rough riders.

With 2 melta guns 5 of them are still 10 points cheaper than the base cost of stormtroopers. It's not points well spent, but it is cheaper.

Best scenario for rough riders-your opponent deploys a shelf, they got to the shelf and hold the gak out of it.

I know I'm being very negative, but I can't possibly see the rough riders as being worth putting time, effort, and money into. The guard codex has quite a few good choices in it that the points and money are better spent elsewhere

Rough Riders are rather hard to pull off. They can still make a mess of regular marines and most necrons, additionally they can mess up most any small enough groups. For a guard army it's a pretty unexpected counter punch. 105pts buys you 20 S5, I5 attacks that slice through most armor. I've had a lot of luck keeping them behind chimeras and using as a counter charge unit after an incoming monster (nids) or assault marines wreck face. The challenge is picking your target so that your sacrifice is not completely a loss and keeping them protected as the enemy advances.

With out having the outflank rule and with 6th editions changes to reserves it has indeed become a waste to try holding them back, best to have them creating a threat zone which keeps power armor enemies away.

I'm personally hoping to pull my RR squads back out in a foot list, keeping them sheltered with a blob behind defense walls. If only a priest could be mounted on a horse....

 YotsubaSnake wrote:
You can't assault out of reserves, meaning they run onto the board somewhere, get all shot up and then are almost completely worthless.

This. They used to be ok (but unpopular due to occupying the same slot as the Vendetta) since you could hold them in reserve and then use an 18+D6" charge move to threaten anything that tried to get into assault range of your main shooting units, and they had AP 2 weapons to ensure they did damage once they got there. As a cheap counter-assault unit you could pretty reliably wipe out squads that cost a lot more than your cavalry, and the mere presence of all those AP 2 lances could force your opponent to make bad choices to avoid them.

Unfortunately the combination of AP 3 lances, worse cover saves, and the ban on assaulting out of reserve killed them. You have no save against incoming fire, and you can't hit the most expensive targets anymore. Meanwhile Vendettas only got better, making this a pretty obvious choice. The only thing Rough Riders are still good for is looking pretty on your display shelf.

75 points for 2 melta guns and 3 lances.
On the charge you get 7 S5 AP3 attacks.

It's a long way from good, but it's also dirt cheap; 30 points cheaper than storm troopers.

Sure, I'd take 5 of them for 75 points. You can always use another pair of melta guns, especially fast moving ones. Worst case is your opponent guns them down and you're out 75 points. Which is when you should point out your didn't max vendettas.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
75 points for 2 melta guns and 3 lances.
On the charge you get 7 S5 AP3 attacks.

It's a long way from good, but it's also dirt cheap; 30 points cheaper than storm troopers.

Sure, I'd take 5 of them for 75 points. You can always use another pair of melta guns, especially fast moving ones. Worst case is your opponent guns them down and you're out 75 points. Which is when you should point out your didn't max vendettas.

-Matt

That is actually a very nice unit now that beasts move 12". If only they didn't compete with vendettas (and vultures), I would certainly bring some.

Peregrine wrote:Unfortunately the combination of AP 3 lances, worse cover saves, and the ban on assaulting out of reserve killed them...

... and random assault ranges, and overwatch, and fleet no longer allowing you to assault after you run, and wound allocation removing the closest lancers, and the addition of focus fire rules.

It's sad just how big of a steaming dump 6th ed took on this unit.

 Ailaros wrote:

Peregrine wrote:Unfortunately the combination of AP 3 lances, worse cover saves, and the ban on assaulting out of reserve killed them...

... and random assault ranges, and overwatch, and fleet no longer allowing you to assault after you run, and wound allocation removing the closest lancers, and the addition of focus fire rules.

It's sad just how big of a steaming dump 6th ed took on this unit.

All of these things can be factored for and make for a nice tactical challenge. They are an interesting unit that can be a nice cheap diversion, if nothing else. Rather than believing the internetz give them a try yourself.

Flinty wrote:All of these things can be factored for and make for a nice tactical challenge.

So does taking a guard army that has nothing but lasguns and meltabombs.

If you want any chance at winning whatsoever, you wouldn't actually do this, though. Likewise, there are so many rules going against rough riders at the moment, that success with them is going to be more dependent on luck than player skill.

 Flinty wrote:
All of these things can be factored for and make for a nice tactical challenge. They are an interesting unit that can be a nice cheap diversion, if nothing else. Rather than believing the internetz give them a try yourself.

But WHY should you factor those things out and take a "tactical challenge" instead of a unit that's actually good? Rough Riders were semi-decent in 5th when they were a simple "point and shoot" weapon that could consistently come out of reserve and immediately kill a target. In 6th they lost quite a bit of offensive threat, and there are now so many obstacles to delivering that threat that it just isn't worth it. You probably won't lose the game automatically if you like horses and take a few, but there really isn't any compelling reason to desperately try to find a use for the unit. Just let it go, and give them a nice comfortable retirement home on your display shelf.

What's with allies? Is there any ally IC that can join cavalry to boost them? Space wolves, probably
I have some rough riders and I have no idea, what to do with them. Maybe suicide attack on tanks?

 Freakazoitt wrote:
What's with allies? Is there any ally IC that can join cavalry to boost them? Space wolves, probably

No. Adding a character might soak up a couple wounds, but it's not going to change the fact that the rest of the squad is only T3/no save, and the cost increases to the point that they're no longer a cheap throwaway unit. You might as well just go for TWC at that point.

Maybe suicide attack on tanks?

Why would you ever do that with a fragile assault unit when you have some of the best suicide melta units in the game?

I have some rough riders and I have no idea, what to do with them.

Put them on the display shelf. Hope that 7th edition makes them better.