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To view the previous report in this series, click here. To view the next game in this series, click here. To view more battle reports in The Hand of the King series, click here.

To view the tactical overview for this report, click here.

***

Melchoir would have been furious if he weren't so out of breath. His powerfist buzzed angrily as he ran. Occasionally the disruption field on the gauntlet and the refractor field on his person would briefly make contact, shooting a zap noise and a small puff of smoke around him.

"Come on, come on! Advance!" Melchoir shouted at the top of his lungs. A massive wave of guardsmen followed their commander's lead.



Melchoir wasn't the kind of person to take offense easily, usually presuming that slights and insults weren't necessarily intended as such. When he did take something personally, though, his scornful wrath had no limits. Nobody held a grudge like Melchoir Theleos.

He had been provoked no fewer than 36 hours prior by his commanding magistrate marshal. His senior had ripped him apart over his use of Kingsguard cadets. Words like "reckless" and "wasteful" were thrown around very liberally. The officer had made a point that "the only thing they ever learned from you was how to get slaughtered". Worse, it was implied that Melchoir had recklessly wasted the finest of Folera ON PURPOSE.

If he was going to treat his soldiers like charnel, then it was deemed fit to replace his elite soldiers with chattel. He was reassigned to a new unit that had been bulked up by conscripts. "Conscripts" was actually putting it rather kindly to the outfit he recieved. There were a few pressed into service, but there were also the seriously wounded, adjuncts and staff officers stripped of rank, and even outright criminals. A vast bulk of them, though, were debtors. Foleran underclass who had found themselves indebted and unable to pay. On Folera, there was no forgiveness. There were no debtor's prisons. Here, life was spent literally as coinage. He was given little more than a rabble of scared, hopeless, untrained, unable, and altogether unsoldierly mob.

Naturally, he was now placed as one of the first ones into the fight, which was where he found himself now. The situation was incredibly dire. Just as things looked like they might be contained, enemy forces trapped in isolated pockets began a breakout which coincided with a massive enemy attack. The breakthrough must be contained at literally any cost. If the enemy forces were able to link up, it would cause a massive breach, allowing the enemy to stab straight into the heart of the Imperium's still rather tenuous foothold on the planet.

Melchoir's new group along with everyone else at hand was rushed forward, straight into the heart of the confusion with the orders to advance everywhere, anywhere, so long as the enemy began to be engaged and pinned down, so that a proper counterattack could be levied on them.

The officer looked up at a bastion as he passed by, and looked past the blockade at the heart of the position. Melchoir all but stopped in his tracks. In front of him, the enemy was in mass, prepared, and just beginning to march forward in a great assault against his still-forming troops.

"Man the barricades!" Melchoir shouted, "Prepare to engage the enemy!"

"You heard him," Sanario added, "Now is the time to meet the face of the enemy and bash it in, with great vigor!"

The Foleran forces quickly rushed forward to the barricades.



The enemy poured out of the ruins on the other side of the street. With a loud shout they steadily and sternly marched forward, blazing forward with small arms fire as they relentlessly pressed on the conscripts. They desperately attempted to return fire, those who even had weapons - those whose weapons even worked. Those guardsmen not thus blessed began to hurl rocks, chunks of debris, and even canteens and other equipment at the enemy.

Even with the benefit of the barricade, a single unit of conscripts were no match for the disciplined fire of advancing regular infantry. Panic began to set in.

The enemy charged.

Meanwhile, Melchoir and the rest of his right flank continued to rush forward into positions of cover.



As the troops advanced, the ones on the left found their position looking across the street while the right continued to swing forward. The officer looked left and could see a rolling wave of lasfire cascading up the street from his soldiers, and being returned in kind as the enemy likewise approached the street from an oblique angle. It was quickly becoming hell at point blank range.

Melchoir took up his positions and looked across the street. On the other side, the enemy was massing for an attack directly at him. The refused enemy flank was swinging around to trap his advance. The enemy were everywhere. He was about to get outflanked by the sheer numbers of them all.

"There!" the officer shouted at the men in front of him to his right, "Enemy in the open! Shoot the ones out on the street!"

The far right, though was another unit of conscripts. They clumsily fumbled with their weapons in an attempt to fire on the enemy threatening the far right of the entire Foleran attack. Despite their efforts, the enemy managed to get across the street and prepare to attack through the ruins.

Melchoir gave the order to independent fire and returned his gaze to the left. The enemy was just beginning to cross the street. Across from them, the barricade was empty. Where the hell was his infantry?



In a panic, the conscripts had broken and fled from the pressing enemy. A nearby officer had managed to rally them enough to get off a controlled volley, but after that, the conscripts quickly disintegrated. Men threw down their weapons (if they had them), and ran as quickly as possible back through their own ranks in a desperate search for safety.

All along the line, the enemy poured out onto the street. There were just too many of them. They were everywhere!

The officer knew he'd need a miracle to save himself, save the mission, and maybe even save everything. He turned to the priest.

Sanario lifted his hands into the air and shouted in a loud bellow, "Oh great and gracious God-Emperor of all Mankind. Savior of the human race. Deliverer of all his children. We beseech your blessing now. Spread thy saving hand over thy servants, and bring down upon us thy power, that it may glorify thy name, and render service to those who thou hast deemed sacred in thine holy eyes.

Show unto us now a sign of your mercy, and of your might..."


***

The stormtrooper sergeant didn't like sloppy, and this whole operation was a mess. He considered it his personal duty to make order out of chaos, not only on the battlefield, but in all aspects of his life. His small literature collection was alphabetized. His hellgun was maintained within 0.05% of specified regulations. Cleaning up messes wasn't just his job, it was his life. That he had the opportunity to be a sergeant in the Kingsguard seemed rather convenient for both parties.

Their orders had been crude but simple. The marshal in charge of his division had hastily put out over the vox net "Find the enemy, and kill them there". The last 24 hours had been ones of pure adrenaline. The stormtrooper and his unit had already been dropped into six different hotspots. Each was an explosion of violence straight out of the valkyrie. The birds actually stayed circling nearby, ready to pick them back up at the faintest sign that the crisis had passed, and regular soldiers could handle the rest. They had had only an aggregate of four hours of rest, but most of this time was spent swapping out spent laspacks, grabbing a quick bite to eat, and loading up the valkyries with reinforcements before going straight back out into the fight.

The sergeant looked out of the back hatch of the valkyrie. It had stayed open all this time, the pilots wanting to be able to get the stormtroopers out with as little delay as was technically possible. Without proper strapping, the sergeant had ordered his men to link arms and hold on tight as they careened across the battlefield with the back door open.

The light above the sergeant flashed red.

"Alright, let's move!" the sergeant shouted as his men quickly got up to their feet and prepared their repelling lines. In the whir of a moment, the light flashed green. "Go, go go!" the sergeant shouted as the Kingsguard piled out of their transport in a death-defying zipline freefall towards the earth.

The stormtroopers started firing their weapons almost before they hit the ground.



The stormtroopers with flame throwers lit them up, casting a sheet of fire cascading up onto the low tower in front of them, nearly clipping the valkyrie as it sped off into the air. Burning enemy soldiers screamed as they cascaded off the other side of the battlements. Shocked by the sudden carnage, the enemy inside were useless to resist the careful yet extreme blast of violence that overtook them from their aerial assailants.

"Tower is clear!" the sergeant shouted as the last survivor dropped off the roof of the bunker. He turned and looked at an enemy walker sprint around the corner. Before the stormtroopers could react, the striding monstrosity fired a blast of plasma from its cannon at the bunched up troopers. The shot only narrowly missed, melting a few antennae on their long-wave voxes, but otherwise exploding into the grass behind them.

The Kingsguard prepared krak grenades in anticipation of a fight, when from behind them, another pair of valkyries swooped in and in seconds disgorged their cargo.



The sergeant ordered his men to turn and advance around the side of the bastion, running away from the walker as it was ripped apart by meltagun fire from the other stormtroopers. They didn't have to run long before they sprung up behind some more enemy soldiers.

They were caught completely unawares as the stormtroopers leveled their flamethrowers and unleashed a billowing blast of fire into their backs.

Meanwhile, the other stormtroopers quickly engaged the forces in front of them. One of them leaped forward and riddled an enemy unit that had made it across the road with hellgun fire just as it prepared to charge in against some nearby guardsmen.

The other pounded into the far exposed flank of the enemy, the cracking thunk of hellgun shots riddling soldiers and nearby boulders. In a snap decision, the enemy charged forward at the Kingsguard.



The stormtroopers continued to pour fire into the enemy as they bolted out onto the road, getting cut down by the stormtrooper's overwatch before barreling into their adversaries. The combat quickly devolved to a fight between fists and combat knives.

The sergeant turned and looked ahead of him after he finished directing the fire only to see a chainsword careening right towards his face. Helpless to dodge the blow, the sword hit him square in the face, the spinning teeth grinding into his helmet. The sergeant lurched back, temporarily blinded as his helmet's optics went dark. He ripped off his helmet and threw it at the enemy sergeant just as he was leveling his pistol.

The stormtrooper always relished a challenge. He dropped his hellgun and pulled out his combat blade. The enemy sergeant recovered and fired his pistol at the sergeant, but the shot bounced helplessly off of his carapace armor. The stormtrooper moved in and made a lightning strike for his opponent's face. He lurched backward, giving him the opportunity to throw a high side-kick, knocking the enemy's chainsword from his grasp. The enemy stumbled backwards and fired his pistol at point blank range, but the shot went wide and glanced off of the stormtrooper's pauldron.

With a fluid motion, the stormtrooper drove his combat knife into his enemy's other hand, causing him to drop the pistol, and with a swift, hard boot to the gut sent the enemy sergeant collapsing to the ground, breathless. The stormtrooper quickly walked back and found his helmet, lifting the visor to be able to see while his head was protected.

The other stormtroopers in his squad had likewise been able to finish off their foes with only minimal casualty. The sergeant looked around and saw that the entire flank was now clear of enemies.



He turned and looked at one of the other squad of stormtroopers who had already started to advance up the road. It looked like the next fight had already begun before the first one had ended.

Leave it to the Kingsguard.


***

Melchoir craned his neck up as the valkyries flew overhead and dropped off some reinforcements. With amazing speed and professionalism, the Kingsguard cleanly began to dispatch the threat on his right flank. The sound of hellguns reassured the officer as his conscripts came huddling up next to him.

This changed everything.

Melchoir looked around as the enemy stampeded down upon the barricades, charging in with reckless abandon.





"Reckless use of Imperial resources?" Melchoir sneered, "We'll show WHO who needlessly endangers the lives of his men!"

Melchoir turned around, looking to a large group of conscripts behind him. "Send in the next wave!" he shouted at the top of his lungs. As quickly as they were ordered, more men rushed forward into battle.



The officer watched as the enemy undrewent a deluge of fire from a mass, charging throng of reinforcements. The few survivors of the original left-side position unloaded their lasguns at point blank range. Bodies began to pile up on the street and the assault began to falter.

A massive explosion rocked the road as a fuel bomb was lobbbed at short range, causing a great fireball to erupt in the middle of the enemy. The assault began to slow and then to stop. Soon, panic began to sweep the enemy, as they began to retreat back across the road, Foleran forces mercilessly gunning them down as they began to break and flee.

Melchoir looked about him at the mass of men at his command.



"Well what are you doing here?" Melchoir barked at the conscripts huddling around him, "Attack!"

The conscripts looked around nervously at the chaos around them.

"Your commanding officer told you to MOVE!" Sanario bellowed, "In the name of all that is holy and sacred, in the name of your God-Emperor, and in the name of his divinely-appointed subject your king, you well get in there and smite your cursed enemy!"

The conscripts were aroused, but still unsure.

"I SAID NOW!" Sanario screamed, revving his chainsword and charging towards the soldiers. As much as out of reverent compliance as of fear of the charging priest, the conscripts were quickly herded out into the open, those behind pushing forwards the ones in front as they desperately scrambled away from the eviscerator. As they charged forwards, they began to take casualties, but there were just too many of them. The enemy began to get nervous.

Then, suddenly, from up the street, a unit of Kingsguard came charging in to join the fray!



Combat knives and pistols drawn, the stormtroopers, even encumbered in their heavy armor, sprinted forward past the conscripts and threw themselves at the enemy, viciously hacking and slashing as the enemy's advance quickly stopped against the force of a trainload of carapace angrily rushing at them.

The stormtrooper sergeant called out his enemy's counterpart as the two squads clashed.



Faced with a brutal melee and a mob of their enemy swarming them, the enemy soldiers broke and ran. Everywhere their assault had been ruined. Everywhere Foleran forces were counterattacking across the street.

Their rout of the shattered survivors was complete.

Melchoir turned back towards the forces behind him. "All soldiers, advance on the enemy! Cut down their retreat!"

He turned and looked at Sanario.

"Let's recklessly endanger something."


***

Melchoir's powerfist fell to the ground with a clunk.

The officer unhooked his refractor field generator and placed it on the ground. His flak armor shortly followed.

It was dark, now, and the officer was freezing. Sweat and blood coated his uniform. The red made a curious pattern with the white of where his shirt had been covered by his armor. The officer grunted as he started to unbutton his fieldblouse. Something in the past few hours had scratched or grazed his arm. Not too shabby for all he'd been through. Hundreds under his command had gotten it worse.

Melchoir peeled off his uniform shirt. Underneath, his flesh was raked over by three huge, ghastly scars that ran across his chest and down his torso. Melchoir couldn't help but remember the chaos terminator lord who had nearly ended his life that day. If there was anything that could be said about Melchoir Theleos, it was that he knew the meaning of sacrifice. Countless scars and a steel rod in his left arm were proof enough of that.

The officer contemplated this as he stared at the tub filled with nearly scalding hot water that his orderly had prepared for him. Next to it was an ammo can that held a brush and a bar of soap. Perhaps that was what had happened. It wasn't that he didn't understand the costs, or the risks, but that he was willing to bear them. To face the odds with a certain coldness, stoically immune to the results like thankless civil servant that he was.

When he had served under Cmd. Marshal Clinton, briefly, he noted that he signed his letters and communiques with his personal motto "Blood Conquers All". The officer pondered this as he entered the steamy waters of his bath. Perhaps that was it. His cadets had been too valuable to sacrifice, at least, in the eyes of a magistrate marshal who didn't understand the meaning of the word. Units had now been given to sacrifice under the command of someone who knew how to sacrifice them.

The officer tried to clear his head as he reached for the soap. Perhaps he just needed to stop taking things so personally.

What was important was victory. He had helped achieve it. His duty was done. In the end, that was the only thing that really mattered.


***

Some very good points were made with this list and it does seem like the conscripts look like a good idea.

Maybe if you could spare some points for a lord commissar you could give them LD 10... which would give you more flexibility regarding sending them up the field (more tactical flexibility)

They may also be a problem in the Hammer and anvil battles due to the depth of the table but im sure you have thought of that.

Finally, id have to say that in my honest opinion this list really would struggle against the majority of the other more prevalent armies which appear to be in your games group. This army looked good against T3 5+ save troops with minimal tech or mech.

Im glad you have finally had a fun game in 6th ed but this may not consistently happen with this current list. You may actually find games with this list more painful for you when you realize that you probably wont get better than a draw out of most games.

Here's a thought: Find some points (easier said than done) for Priests to go with the first Conscript wave (1 each). They're a substantial leadership boost (5->7), especially with a re-roll, and boost to the Conscripts in close combat, should they be fortunate enough to get there. Throw in the fact that Chenkov's Stubborn bubble and the Regimental Standard's re-roll bubble are both 12", and you've actually got a unit that can actually get stuck in for a bit if that's something that is advantageous for the particular mission. You could just put in one other priest, and you'd have enough to do one, both, or no squads with priests, depending on what needed to happen in the mission. I'm brainstorming a little here, and you're already paying a lot of overhead for those conscripts, but it might be something to consider.

Biophysical wrote:
Here's a thought: Find some points (easier said than done) for Priests to go with the first Conscript wave (1 each). They're a substantial leadership boost (5->7), especially with a re-roll, and boost to the Conscripts in close combat, should they be fortunate enough to get there. Throw in the fact that Chenkov's Stubborn bubble and the Regimental Standard's re-roll bubble are both 12", and you've actually got a unit that can actually get stuck in for a bit if that's something that is advantageous for the particular mission. You could just put in one other priest, and you'd have enough to do one, both, or no squads with priests, depending on what needed to happen in the mission. I'm brainstorming a little here, and you're already paying a lot of overhead for those conscripts, but it might be something to consider.

This is a good idea. You can also tack him onto your combat CCS if the mood takes your fancy (we all know you love this combo so not only does it add to your fun list but it will also increase your tactical flexibility with your army as a whole and increases your options).

Seems like you finally had a game that was fun for you.

I do have to ask though. Deathstrikes? Really? They've never seemed good on paper or in practice did they actually DO anything?

I'm sad to see the duravets go as i have a particular soft spot for them. Its shame you cant take a couple of stormtroopers as troops since they seem to get s**t done

I'm just appalled at seeing you have to fight against someone using an entire army of Star Wars miniatures. I mean, come ON.

I am pleased that your well-painted army carried the day!

--B.

TheMicah25 wrote:Finally, id have to say that in my honest opinion this list really would struggle against the majority of the other more prevalent armies which appear to be in your games group.

I don't see it. The biggest problem I've been having is with troops getting wiped off the board. With this list, they respawn, meaning there's always troops on the board. Meanwhile, the loss of the vet special weapons isn't that big of a deal as they scarcely got to use them. Meanwhile, deathstrikes hate everything, including AV13 necron vehicles, and including gunlines, and including anything that was relying on a jink save (no cover you say?).

The only thing that this list is missing is anti-flier, but in this case it's a calculated gamble. If the only thing my opponent's fliers have been particularly good at is throwing troops off of objectives, and if I can now just throw them right back on, then it doesn't mean as much. Furthermore, if I can clobber my opponent's troops choices with a combination of deathstrikes and stormtroopers, then I'm going to win the objectives games. No troops on my opponent's objectives + infinitely respawning troops on my objectives? Sounds like a plan to me.

I might consider perhaps downgrading the deathstrikes to manticores and hydras, but I'm not immediately convinced that this would be a whole lot better.

Biophysical wrote:
Here's a thought: Find some points (easier said than done) for Priests to go with the first Conscript wave (1 each). They're a substantial leadership boost (5->7), especially with a re-roll, and boost to the Conscripts in close combat, should they be fortunate enough to get there. Throw in the fact that Chenkov's Stubborn bubble and the Regimental Standard's re-roll bubble are both 12", and you've actually got a unit that can actually get stuck in for a bit if that's something that is advantageous for the particular mission.

I'll consider it, but there are a lot of things that could go wrong here. Plus, it's more expensive.

In any case, the point of conscripts isn't to replace blobs. The point of conscripts is that they're the only unit that can use SiTNW.

General Ian wrote: Its shame you cant take a couple of stormtroopers as troops since they seem to get s**t done

No kidding. If I could run a stormie army I would do it in a heartbeat.

Briancj wrote:I'm just appalled at seeing you have to fight against someone using an entire army of Star Wars miniatures. I mean, come ON.

Hmm, but what's worse, well-painted miniatures from the wrong game, or a sea of grey, unpainted miniatures from the right one?

 Briancj wrote:
I'm just appalled at seeing you have to fight against someone using an entire army of Star Wars miniatures.

Playing a game is always more fun than not playing a game and whining about miniatures.

Man, your stormies kicked some serious butt this game! Nice to see.

I'm interested to see how this list will fare against one of the more powerful armies/builds you usually face to see how it holds up.

Death strikes seemed like little more than paperweights this game. 3x basilisks would have done more for 100 pts less. A little bit of damage every turn, as you put it, is better than nothing all game in my view. I don't think 3 Deathstrikes is too fluffy either. The results are absolutely not worth the justified feeling of filthiness you confess to.

DarknessEternal wrote:Playing a game is always more fun than not playing a game and whining about miniatures.

Oh yeah, and that too.

NWansbutter wrote:Death strikes seemed like little more than paperweights this game. 3x basilisks would have done more for 100 pts less. A little bit of damage every turn, as you put it, is better than nothing all game in my view.

So, this is the philosophy on trial here, really. Is it better to have the chance of doing nothing or doing massive damage up front, or is it better to do a small, guaranteed amount of damage over time?

My games so far have lead me to the conclusion that most games of 6th ed are decided before turn 3. As such, it would make the most sense to swing for the fences on turns 1 and 2. If, however, my observation is incorrect, then it would make the most sense to take a more conservative approach.

Yes, in this game I was unlucky with the deathstrikes, so yeah, they were basically just paperweights. Waiting until turn 5 to fire and then rolling the smallest blast size for a grand total of like 75 points of stuff killed wasn't great (although, I'd like to note that I got several turns of heavy boltering in this game, which actually killed a fair amount). The problem is that I don't know if switching them for manticores would really be better. Against infantry (especially light infantry), obviously the manticores are better, but between hellguns and lasguns, I don't really need much more anti-infantry. As you can see from this game, it's very possible to handle hordes with just small arm spam.

The problems I've been having have been against fliers and AV12 vehicles. Against these targets, I don't see the manticore as being all that useful. They can't shoot fliers, and they're only Ap4. Rather likely to cause a penetrating hit, but also really only likely to shave off a single HP. The deathstrike, on the other hand, gains Ap1, which makes a big difference. If you're likely only getting a single penetrating hit anyways, it's better to go for the one that's three times more likely to explode the vehicle, and that ignores jink saves.

I mean, the only other serious contender here is hydras, but hydras don't work against gunlines, and they're really only SO good against AV12 fliers (as in, it's still going to take a 2x hydra squad a couple of turns to take a storm raven or vendetta down, and they may well not survive that long in the first place).

NWansbutter wrote: I don't think 3 Deathstrikes is too fluffy either. The results are absolutely not worth the justified feeling of filthiness you confess to.

Right.

I think what might need to happen is that I start bringing two different lists. The anti-waac list that will try to break things up so that stuff can actually happen in a game, and the everybody else list, where I field what's more designed to create a pleasant gaming experience. In this case, the deathstrike list would be a tournament list, rather than the one I usually field.

Great batrep as always. An interesting exercise in the use of conscripts, sad to see the deathstrikes not do too much. Woulda liked to see some big booms . Question though: any particular reason you keep your artillary all on the same corner? I've noticed this in a few of your other reps. Wouldn't it be better to split them across your DZ or is it just personal preference for yourself?

Looking forwards to the next one!

 Ailaros wrote:
Yes, in this game I was unlucky with the deathstrikes, so yeah, they were basically just paperweights. Waiting until turn 5 to fire and then rolling the smallest blast size for a grand total of like 75 points of stuff killed wasn't great (although, I'd like to note that I got several turns of heavy boltering in this game, which actually killed a fair amount). The problem is that I don't know if switching them for manticores would really be better. Against infantry (especially light infantry), obviously the deathstrikes are better, but between hellguns and lasguns, I don't really need much more anti-infantry. As you can see from this game, it's very possible to handle hordes with just small arm spam.

The problems I've been having have been against fliers and AV12 vehicles. Against these targets, I don't see the manticore as being all that useful. They can't shoot fliers, and they're only Ap4. Rather likely to cause a penetrating hit, but also really only likely to shave off a single HP. The deathstrike, on the other hand, gains Ap1, which makes a big difference. If you're likely only getting a single penetrating hit anyways, it's better to go for the one that's three times more likely to explode the vehicle, and that ignores jink saves.

Well, we'll see how it goes with future batreps, but this is YOUR luck we are talking about here. I think you can pretty much bank on the deathstrikes not going off until well after turn 2, and getting minimal blast radii when they do, regularly.

Also, are you sure Deathstrikes can shoot at flyers? The rulebook says blast weapons cannot be fired at flyers in zoom mode, and I just double-checked the FAQ and it makes no mention of any exception to this for the Deathstrike. So I'm pretty sure that you cannot use the Deathstrike against flyers, which seems another strike against it (pardon the pun).

And the Manticore will also lead to feelings of filthiness (I know they would for me). So I say if you want to deal with AV12 bring a standard Russ or Basilisks (Str 9 Ap2 -- pretty close to a Deathstrike, can shoot turn 1, less dependent on luck, 35 pts cheaper) to get that job done, and for flyers, go Hydras which got nicely nerfed by having skyfire but not interceptor (so no guilt). I don't really have any answers for Storm Ravens or Vendettas other than bringing the Aegis back with an Icarus. I know that's only one gun, but it's all we've got right now barring a foray into Forgeworld territory or bringing a Vendetta of your own (I don't like that as a solution any more than you do, but in your fluff Valkyries/Vendettas are what are dropping off your storm troopers, so they are already built into your story, which makes it more palatable). Or just hope and pray the stormies can roll some clutch 6s to down those things with their meltaguns.

No real good answers. I'm struggling with the same dilemma myself since I have the same issues that you do with the options available. But I just don't know that the Deathstrike is the right fit for Ailaros.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and to add a bit more to the mix from a fluff perspective. If Melchior is being given conscripts because the brass was angry about his "reckless" and "wasteful" use of Kingsguard cadets, they sure as the Warp wouldn't give him three Deathstrikes! The fluff in the codex cites no fewer than 30 generals being executed over the loss of one Deathstrike, so rare and important are they. So there's another reason to go with something more mundane like Basilisks (which I note you already have the models for) or Leman Russes (Demolisher for Deathstrike-like stats if not range) if you're like me and prefer those kits and AV 14.

For some clarification:

The type listed in the codex is "Ordnance Barrage, One Shot Only D3 + 3", Blast*. "

But here's confusing part, the book clarifies:

"All models within range of the impact point are hit."

So I guess it can hit fliers, but can't target fliers, as the rulebook does say that specific codex entries override the broad rulings of the book.

 kestril wrote:

So I guess it can hit fliers, but can't target fliers, as the rulebook does say that specific codex entries override the broad rulings of the book.

Nope, the latest FAQ makes it perfectly crystal clear there's no hitting zooming fliers with blasts, lines, etc no matter what any codex says.

No, I'm actually assuming that neither deathstrikes nor manticores can hit fliers. It was worded poorly in my earlier post. My point was that of two problems I have, deathstrikes solve one, while manticores solve zero.

As for deathstrikes being luck dependent, well, bad luck certainly hurts everything. In the case of a deathstrike, it's the ultimate small number (a single die roll), but I'd note that, in the large scheme of things, a manticore isn't very much better (being 4 die rolls, still a long way from a "large number").

As for deathstrike fluff, I'm re-fluffing them as fuel bombs. Deathstrikes are just larger versions of a colossus - instead of lobbing up to seven 50-gallon drums, they instead catapault a single 3,000 gallon promethium barrel over on to stuff.

Anyways, this league is actually over now (this was the last game), which means the tournament is coming up in a couple of days. I've been looking over my battle reports to try and decide what is best. The core of my list has gotten a lot better over these games, which really just leaves what goes on in the support. It seems like I have three options.

- 3x deathstrikes (or, the list I used for this game). I came across a couple of gunlines this league, and the deathstrikes would certainly be useful for that (assuming they survive). More importantly, this list, more than any other, really plays the missions. The deathstrikes and stormtroopers are going to be over 1,000 points of pure hell applied directly to my opponent's scoring units. Meanwhile, my scoring units respawn. This seems like the best way to handle some of the toy-heavy lists I've been seeing of late.

- 2x melta-las exterminators, primaris psyker. This option gives me some serious defensive power, and also allows me to do anything at all against fliers. The problem, though, is that this is almost entirely defensive, as none of the important stuff in this support option fires out more than 24". I think it would be better to double down with something that supports my stormies, especially if my conscripts are going to always be on objectives.

It is certainly safer though, allowing me to go for draw games better, and look for wins with small margins, rather than wins or losses with huge ones.

- LRBT, hull lascannon, 2x hydra squad, 2x hydra squad. Certainly this handles the flimsy fliers, but I'm concerned about the AV12 fliers we have at the store. Also, this seems somewhat dubious for use against necron, as the hydras get to fire with full BS, but they're never going to penetrate AV13. This option also feels like it puts out the smallest amount of firepower of the three, which makes me feel uncomfortable as well.

On the plus side, though, it does actually lend a small bit of support to the stormies, even if it's mostly in the form of BS1 shots.

Necron fliers are only AV11: Hydras rip those apart.

Unless you meant their regular vehicles, in which case, you already have stuff for them.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Necron fliers are only AV11: Hydras rip those apart.

Unless you meant their regular vehicles, in which case, you already have stuff for them.

Necrons have some special vehicle upgrade that makes them AV13 til the first time the armor is penetrated than it reverts to AV11 and a strength 7 autocannon cant penetrate the AV13 so all the hydra can hope to do is glance it to death.

My vote goes for bringing the Exterminators. AV 14 will soak up a lot of firepower and take the heat off of your troops. Have it advance with your troops as they move up the board.

DarknessEternal wrote:Unless you meant their regular vehicles, in which case, you already have stuff for them.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

I don't see what I already have for them, though. AV13 is going to be a beast to crack open with just autocannons. It was actually one of the reasons I considered deathstrikes in the first place. The hydra and the deathstrike are the only two weapons in the entire arsenal that both can damage AV13 AND are able to ignore jink saves.

The only reason I'm considering the exterminators is because with a lascannon and 2 multimeltas I've got a pretty decent chance of making SOMETHING stick. They're also not awful against fliers as well. Only one of the 6 shots in this case is likely to hit, but that one shot will be a doozy.

seanm222 wrote:Have it advance with your troops as they move up the board.

The problem is that it wouldn't work out that way.

Looking back at my list, I see blaster/darklight spam. I see multimelta storm ravens. I see gauss weapons. I see death rays and doomsday arks. I throw the tanks in front and all I'm going to get for my trouble is dead tanks.

Really, they would be something that would hang back and shoot at fliers (along with the psyker), and keep those friggin necron chariots out of my face.

 General Ian wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Necron fliers are only AV11: Hydras rip those apart.

Unless you meant their regular vehicles, in which case, you already have stuff for them.

Necrons have some special vehicle upgrade that makes them AV13 til the first time the armor is penetrated than it reverts to AV11 and a strength 7 autocannon cant penetrate the AV13 so all the hydra can hope to do is glance it to death.

Yeah, but the fliers can't take it. They're stuck at AV11 with no shield.

Also, interesting idea with the conscripts. I've been looking at them more and more lately, but I already had so many guardsmen on the table I didn't have the models to field them. Maybe I'll do a game soon where I take 2,000pts of nothing but infantry, and utilize a few blocks of conscripts to really buff the numbers.

I've definitely learned that horde armies are much stronger this edition. They seem to be getting popular in my area, and a local ork player and I are taking something like 220 infantry models between the two of us to a doubles 1k tourney. We literally outnumber every other army there by no less than 2 to 1. Conscripts with SITNW are the epitome of this, so it makes sense that they'd be taken eventually.

This is going to sound crazy, but have you thought about Creed for a list like this, or at least a lord commissar? Something that can buff those conscripts LD and get them doing more things. For example, with Creed, you could keep giving them "For the honour of cadia" to keep them fearless, or use kell to constantly give them FRFSRF, move move move, etc. Normally, Creed wouldn't have enough to boss around, but with nonstop respawning conscript squads, that won't be a problem. Plus, you can always use him to augment your regular infantry as well, so he'd be able to be flexible and help a lot of different areas in your list. And most importantly, his "money" orders do not require line of sight to work. That would be your FRFSRF, Incoming, Move move move, For the honour of Cadia, and get back in the fight. Only Fire on my Target and Bring it down explicitly state you must be able to see the ordered unit and the target. Meaning you could actually hide Creed fairly well if you needed to.

That, or you can take the manly option, buy Yarrick, and run 3 or 4 fifty man conscript blobs with SITNW and just swamp your opponent in bodies while everything behind them takes as many lascannons as they can carry.

 Ailaros wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Unless you meant their regular vehicles, in which case, you already have stuff for them.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

I don't see what I already have for them, though.

8 meltaguns, 1 eviscerator, 30 krak grenades.

DarknessEternal wrote:8 meltaguns, 1 eviscerator, 30 krak grenades.

That still seems pretty light, though, especially in a world of jink saves. I mean, look at this game, and honestly tell me that will be enough to handle 7 jinking AV13 vehicles.

WhiteWolf01 wrote:any particular reason you keep your artillary all on the same corner? I've noticed this in a few of your other reps. Wouldn't it be better to split them across your DZ or is it just personal preference for yourself?

In a way, its sort if instinctual. There are reasons, though. For one, there is generally only ever going to be one or two very good pieces of terrain to hide stuff behind. Getting the best cover often means putting them close to each other behind said cover. Secondly, its easier to keep them out of close combat (generally), if I put them in a single wad that can be double-bubble-wrapped. Thirdly, as in this case, having them overlap at an oblique angle means that the vehicles give each other cover saves, especially against faster units that can outflank around good cover pieces. It also keeps down casualties from vehicle explosions.

MrMoustaffa wrote:I've definitely learned that horde armies are much stronger this edition.

What on earth are you talking about? Your local meta must be WAY different than mine for that statement to be true.

MrMoustaffa wrote:Something that can buff those conscripts

Biophysical wrote: ...and boost to the Conscripts

TheMicah25 wrote:Maybe if you could spare some points for a lord commissar you could give them LD 10...

So, I think everybody here is missing the point of the conscripts.

Take a look back at these last 9 games. Take a close look at what my on-table infantry did. With a few exceptions, they did literally nothing but hold objectives. It doesnt' matter if they're MSU, blobs, duravets or conscripts. Guard troops choices aren't going to kill anything. It doesn't matter how you upgrade them.

Guard foot units are so fragile that they're not going to survive long enough to kill anything. Guard foot armies are so spread out, that it's going to be nearly impossible to apply enough force concentration to actually kill anything. Guard foot units are so slow that, given take-from-the-front wound allocation, you're no longer guaranteed to get into range to kill anything.

Upgrading the killing power of foot guard units that will start the game on the table is nearly pointless. As such, thinking about how to make the conscripts stronger is missing the point.

My backfield guardsmen have done exactly one thing - hold objectives. You don't need guns for this, you just need numbers. Infinite numbers is good for this. This is what the conscripts are for.

If I want to kill stuff, I can no longer look to my troops choices. This is why you see me spending very, very few points on weapons upgrades. It's better to squeeze a little more firepower into units that will actually kill stuff than to try and make my troops choices killy anymore.

 Ailaros wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:I've definitely learned that horde armies are much stronger this edition.

What on earth are you talking about? Your local meta must be WAY different than mine for that statement to be true.

I have said that exact thing many times since the edition change. And, it intrinsically has to be true to both sides. No one is going to champion their meta when it isn't what they are actually experiencing (well some people do, but let's ignore those idiots for now).

I've also been having off and on conversations with people winning or at least doing well in very large tournaments with armies that would laughed off the table only slightly slower than they were killed off the table around here and I'm completely bamboozled by it.

So I've come to this epiphany: no one knows what is objectively strong any more.

Sure, we can all nod our heads when some proven pundit says "this looks like a good army." And it probably does look good. The problem only comes up when we're all nodding our heads and saying "this looks like a bad army" and it wins anyway.

How can we say objectively foot hordes are dead when we can find tournament results of a Green Tide rolling everyone, for example? And it isn't a case of someone playing a slightly stronger army list in a sea of weak armies. The "strong" armies are always around, yet they don't always seem that strong.

The only conclusion I can draw from that epiphany is people need to stop drawing a line in the sand about what is and isn't good.

I think I can at least see why that is now; people are fielding much more diverse armies than they were in 5th. The entire paradigm of 5th edition was mechanized MSU armies, either you were one or you were geared to beat one. Now, who can predict? Sure, the hecklers will say something about all Necron flier spam, but the evidence just doesn't bear that out. People are winning with armies at major events that look like they were made by picking units out of a hat. They're also winning with foot hordes, mech infantry, flier spam, etc.

I'm not trying to espouse some horsecrap about "it's not the list, it's the player." That's never going to be true, especially since dice are involved. I'm just trying to say that what is good and bad seems to be subjective right now. No amount of theorycraft or even personal experience is defining it for the game in general.

All we should be striving for is figuring out what is good against the people we play against.

This may come out sounding exceptionally stupid, but do you put camo-netting on your deathstrikes? i know 30 points is a bit pricey, but for a weapon that's all about NOT dying it seems like it wouldn't be too crazy to have a few camouflaged deathstrikes rather then 3 slightly easier to kill ones. Also am i just misreading but does it really give you the option to put a HEAVY FLAMER on a deathstrike?!

Also this may be another odd thought but at one point didn't you say you were fiddling around with the idea of rough riders, i don't know how good they will be, but i would absolutely love to see it.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:I've definitely learned that horde armies are much stronger this edition.

What on earth are you talking about? Your local meta must be WAY different than mine for that statement to be true.

I have said that exact thing many times since the edition change. And, it intrinsically has to be true to both sides. No one is going to champion their meta when it isn't what they are actually experiencing (well some people do, but let's ignore those idiots for now).

I've also been having off and on conversations with people winning or at least doing well in very large tournaments with armies that would laughed off the table only slightly slower than they were killed off the table around here and I'm completely bamboozled by it.

So I've come to this epiphany: no one knows what is objectively strong any more.

Sure, we can all nod our heads when some proven pundit says "this looks like a good army." And it probably does look good. The problem only comes up when we're all nodding our heads and saying "this looks like a bad army" and it wins anyway.

How can we say objectively foot hordes are dead when we can find tournament results of a Green Tide rolling everyone, for example? And it isn't a case of someone playing a slightly stronger army list in a sea of weak armies. The "strong" armies are always around, yet they don't always seem that strong.

The only conclusion I can draw from that epiphany is people need to stop drawing a line in the sand about what is and isn't good.

I think I can at least see why that is now; people are fielding much more diverse armies than they were in 5th. The entire paradigm of 5th edition was mechanized MSU armies, either you were one or you were geared to beat one. Now, who can predict? Sure, the hecklers will say something about all Necron flier spam, but the evidence just doesn't bear that out. People are winning with armies at major events that look like they were made by picking units out of a hat. They're also winning with foot hordes, mech infantry, flier spam, etc.

I'm not trying to espouse some horsecrap about "it's not the list, it's the player." That's never going to be true, especially since dice are involved. I'm just trying to say that what is good and bad seems to be subjective right now. No amount of theorycraft or even personal experience is defining it for the game in general.

All we should be striving for is figuring out what is good against the people we play against.

This.

By being left out of the ally frenzy and few people being interested in playing double FOC, everyone said that the Tyranids are utter crap. However, a friend of mine has been dominating with drop Tyranids in the local scene. He's knocked off Necrons, Guard, cheesy Nurgle stuff. Right now people are having a hard time coming with an idea of how to beat him. His list might be vulnerable to a parking lot, but with the meta moving away from that, it has allowed his list to flourish.

We might all talk "objectively" about how some game mechanics work, but with so many rule changes people are still trying to adjust. In terms of blobs I know that Ailaros has decided that the commissar can be easily sniped out of the blob. I had a similar thought when the new edition came out. However, there is not that much barrage weaponry that is being used. Also, I can't think of too many times where anyone remembered to to use their characters to knock out upgrades or other characters from opposing units.

The game isn't played computers. Your opponents have tried to adjust to the new edition as well. They are also tired, drunk or having a brain cramp just like you.

I applaud Ailaros for trying a huge portion of the codex in his search to resurrect the foot blob, but perhaps we should all try blobs in actual game play before burying them. Tonight I'm trying a Uriah power-axe blob myself. We'll see how that goes.

sandant wrote:This may come out sounding exceptionally stupid, but do you put camo-netting on your deathstrikes?

You find me 90 points and I'll consider it.

sandant wrote:Also am i just misreading but does it really give you the option to put a HEAVY FLAMER on a deathstrike?!

They can, but why bother? The heavy bolter actually gives them something to do while they wait for the missile to fire. In this game, I got to throw down nearly 20 heavy bolter shots, which actually did stuff.

sandant wrote:Also this may be another odd thought but at one point didn't you say you were fiddling around with the idea of rough riders, i don't know how good they will be, but i would absolutely love to see it.

I was, back in 5th. In 6th, there's no point to take them.

DarknessEternal wrote:So I've come to this epiphany: no one knows what is objectively strong any more.

I suppose this is true if, perhaps, in a slightly different way than you intend.

By a certain definition of objectivity, we certainly can say what is strong, without relying on tiny subjective data sets (ie. actually playing games). Deduction clearly shows how much worse assault is in 6th ed, for example, without needing to enter the messy, subjective world of empiricism.

However, if you take the definition of objective vis. a. vis. relative, rather than a vis. subjective, what you're talking about certainly makes sense. We know that most foot lists are relatively weaker than they were before, but it's kind of hard to judge them relative to other kinds of lists. For example, foot guard may well have gotten much worse relative to 5th, and mech guard may have gotten less worse relative to 5th, but that doesn't actually say anything about the power level of 6th ed foot guard relative to 6th ed mech guard.

Or, for another example, there are people that claim that GK got worse out of 6th ed. While it may be true that GK are worse than GK in 5th, it is certainly not true that 6th ed GK are now weaker than 6th ed everybody else. They may be weaker relative to what they were, but they are also stronger relative to whatever they're going to be facing now.

In this use of objectivity, then yeah, you do sort of have to wait for things to shake out. That said...

DarknessEternal wrote:The problem only comes up when we're all nodding our heads and saying "this looks like a bad army" and it wins anyway.

The problem is that with 6th ed, our point of reference has changed.

For example, if 6th ed is more reliant on randomness than 5th (an assertion that seems to be generally agreed upon), then that means that luck is a bigger factor in determining the outcome of a game. This means that it's now more possible for a crappy list to win a game than it was in 5th edition, given the opportunity for better die rolling to have a bigger impact.

In this case, perhaps the lists actually ARE weak. The fact that they win games is not necessarily because the lists are stronger than supposed. When the game itself changes, it does cause our suspicions to become suspect.

And, of course, this is the tricky part. People are trying to understand relative strength from 5th ed, and people are trying to figure out relative strength compared to other 6th ed lists, both at the same time. Also, we have to add another element to the mix - time. Not everybody will pick up on things in a uniform way. There will undoubtedly be some holdouts where 5th ed lists will do just fine for years to come, and there are some places where 5th ed lists are now already an auto-loss.Add to this people who refuse to use the other definition of objectivity, and are sloppily attempting to learn new objective truths from subjective experiences WHILE doing those other two things at the same time, and things rather quickly get out of hand as far as determining what is strong and what is not.

Which all brings me to my original quote. Foot guard got much, much worse relative to 5th ed foot guard. You only need to read the rulebook to see this. If you're still being successful with HWSs or power blobs, then you're being successful with things that got a lot worse. This implies that at your local meta, everybody else got worse at a faster rate than you got worse, so you are still relatively better, compared to everyone else. That or you're playing against a meta where the opponents are a lot less skilled or a lot more lucky.

Mr. Moustaffa talks about his local meta where people ignore HWSs, and where you can just charge out in the open and not get gunned down. In that meta, some of the things that make foot guard much worse don't actually apply, as the opponents aren't actually exploiting the new advantages that they have. As it is, in my local meta, people are pretty quick to pick up on things. Were I to try power blob and HWS spam at my FLGS, my opponents would have no problem taking full advantage of all of the new things that have dismantled the competitiveness of those kinds of units.

Any plans to bring some Ratlings to the field? If we're talking relativity here, then I'd say they've gotten a bit better with 6th being able to place a few wounds now and then. I realize they compete with stormies, but two full squads could cause a fair amount of harassment to anything outside a vehicle. Only draw back I see is their low leadership. Though if your opponent is focusing on them anyway, it will at least take some pressure off your troops.

I just want to jump in and tell you not to lose hope Al. My guardsmen have been on a 5 game winning satreak against 4 marines and a grey knights force. Granted in one, our time expired or turn 4 so I got the win and in one the game went 7 turns (with me being behind for the first 6), but all but one were close, ie. within 1 victory point. The one that wasn't I tabled a marine opponent with my all foot guard and in every game it was a either my bare bones infantry squads with heavy bolters or Russes combined with infantry squads with heaavy bolters that carried the day. Foot guard are not dead, it's probably a combination of tough opponants and bad luck that have killed you so far. Stay the course, tweek your list and tactics and you'll find your stride.

 Ailaros wrote:
Were I to try power blob and HWS spam at my FLGS, my opponents would have no problem taking full advantage of all of the new things that have dismantled the competitiveness of those kinds of units.

But power blob won a major event. I'm not saying you'd win with it where you play, just that it did win a major event.

bogalubov wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

MrMoustaffa wrote:I've definitely learned that horde armies are much stronger this edition.

What on earth are you talking about? Your local meta must be WAY different than mine for that statement to be true.

I have said that exact thing many times since the edition change. And, it intrinsically has to be true to both sides. No one is going to champion their meta when it isn't what they are actually experiencing (well some people do, but let's ignore those idiots for now).

I've also been having off and on conversations with people winning or at least doing well in very large tournaments with armies that would laughed off the table only slightly slower than they were killed off the table around here and I'm completely bamboozled by it.

So I've come to this epiphany: no one knows what is objectively strong any more.

Sure, we can all nod our heads when some proven pundit says "this looks like a good army." And it probably does look good. The problem only comes up when we're all nodding our heads and saying "this looks like a bad army" and it wins anyway.

How can we say objectively foot hordes are dead when we can find tournament results of a Green Tide rolling everyone, for example? And it isn't a case of someone playing a slightly stronger army list in a sea of weak armies. The "strong" armies are always around, yet they don't always seem that strong.

The only conclusion I can draw from that epiphany is people need to stop drawing a line in the sand about what is and isn't good.

I think I can at least see why that is now; people are fielding much more diverse armies than they were in 5th. The entire paradigm of 5th edition was mechanized MSU armies, either you were one or you were geared to beat one. Now, who can predict? Sure, the hecklers will say something about all Necron flier spam, but the evidence just doesn't bear that out. People are winning with armies at major events that look like they were made by picking units out of a hat. They're also winning with foot hordes, mech infantry, flier spam, etc.

I'm not trying to espouse some horsecrap about "it's not the list, it's the player." That's never going to be true, especially since dice are involved. I'm just trying to say that what is good and bad seems to be subjective right now. No amount of theorycraft or even personal experience is defining it for the game in general.

All we should be striving for is figuring out what is good against the people we play against.

This.

By being left out of the ally frenzy and few people being interested in playing double FOC, everyone said that the Tyranids are utter crap. However, a friend of mine has been dominating with drop Tyranids in the local scene. He's knocked off Necrons, Guard, cheesy Nurgle stuff. Right now people are having a hard time coming with an idea of how to beat him. His list might be vulnerable to a parking lot, but with the meta moving away from that, it has allowed his list to flourish.

We might all talk "objectively" about how some game mechanics work, but with so many rule changes people are still trying to adjust. In terms of blobs I know that Ailaros has decided that the commissar can be easily sniped out of the blob. I had a similar thought when the new edition came out. However, there is not that much barrage weaponry that is being used. Also, I can't think of too many times where anyone remembered to to use their characters to knock out upgrades or other characters from opposing units.

The game isn't played computers. Your opponents have tried to adjust to the new edition as well. They are also tired, drunk or having a brain cramp just like you.

I applaud Ailaros for trying a huge portion of the codex in his search to resurrect the foot blob, but perhaps we should all try blobs in actual game play before burying them. Tonight I'm trying a Uriah power-axe blob myself. We'll see how that
goes.

Haha, just to prove me wrong my optimism for blobs and Guard play was rewarded by getting blasted off the table. By turn 4 I had one vendetta and 4 guardsmen left out of the 7 tanks, 2 flyers, 60 guardsmen and 20 sisters that I brought. Deathmarks with Crypteks are pretty deadly.

I guess you can never bring just 1 of anything. By having one 30 man blob with Uriah it was a pretty easy choice for my opponent to mark them for death.