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Chaos Army List

1 Daemon Prince Tzeen, Power Armour, Wings, Black Mace

1 Chaos Lord, Nurgle, Burning Brand, Power Axe

5 Plague marines, 2 plasma guns, meltabomb
6 Plague marines, 2 plasma guns, meltabomb
6 Plague marines, 2 plasma guns, meltabomb

35 cultists

1 Forgefiend, 3 ectoplasma
1 Mauler
1 Mauler

Necron Army List

1 Overlord, phaseshifter, warscythe, command barge, mindshackle scarabs
Royal court, 2 necron lords, with res orbs

20 Warriors, Ghost arc
20 Warriors, Ghost arc

1 Doom Scythe
1 Doom Scythe

Mission: Relic
Nightfighting first turn
Warlord traits: Useless

Deployment


Chaos won the roll for deployment and decided to go first.

Chaos lord deployed with the cultists centrally.

Royal Court Necron lords are in each 20 warrior block.

Roll to seize, necrons seize.

Necron Turn 1



Everything advances, command barge moves behind some cover, all fire is ineffective.

Chaos turn 1


Mauler fiend 1 moved behind cover, with the daemon prince,

Maulerfiend 2 advanced full and attempted to charge the ghost arc but was off by 2

The Forgefiend advance and fired 3 plasma into the warrior block, but rolled 2 ones for gets hot, however they didn't glance. The one that hit scattered onto the ghost arc and failed to pen.

Necron turn 2


One Doom Scythe came in, and fired its death ray across both maulers killing them both, it then fired its tesla fired at the forgefiend and kill it. (After reading its rules after the game i found out it couldn't target my forgefiend with its tesla.)

Everything else advanced and fired into plague marines who didn't take any casualties.

Chaos turn 2



Two plague marines advanced on their respective ghost arcs and attempted to charge, they failed their 7 and 6 inch charges respectively.

The Daemon Prince hopped over the ruins and charged a warrior block, losing a wound to overwatch, it wiped out the unit and consolidated back over to the ruins.

The cultists pick up the relic

Necron turn 3


The second doom scythe came on a killed 5 plague marines.

The first doom scythe moved 18, then fired its death ray backwards through the plague marines and into the daemon prince instant deathing it, and killing two plague marines.

The warriors and ghost arc 2 killed 2 more plague marines.

The ghost arc 1 killed two plague marines who were about to be charged by the command barge.

The Command barge charged the plague marines, the melta bomb destroying the chariot. The overlord failing to do anything. He held.

Chaos turn 3


The cultists with the relic and lord charge the overlord. The Chaos lord issues a challenge, fails his mindshackle scarabs and is wounded.

The two plague marines charge the ghost arc and do a glance.

Necron turn 4


Both doom scythes leave the battle. The warriors and ghost arc wipe out the plague marines.

The chaos lord fails his mindshackle again and dies, the cultists break and drop the relic.

Chaos turn 4


The cultists rally and pick up the relic again.

The plague champion dies in a challenge thanks to mindshackle scarabs

Necron turn 5


The overlord kills the remaining plague marines.

The cultists lose all but 4 thanks to the combined shooting of the warriors ghost arcs and doom scythes. they failed their moral check and flee.

Victory Necrons.

[Edit]Post game review:

Well one doom scythe on turn two killed two maulerfiends and a forgefiend(450 points) and then on the next turn killed two plague marines and my daemon prince for a total for 778 worth of my units before my turn 3.
My unit of cultists with the chaos lord should never have charged the overlord since it was such a waste he just sat in challenges and the rest of my guys couldn't attack. Champion of chaos is really bad against a single character, they can just sit safely in combat with huge squads.

One Doom Scythe came in, and fired its death ray across both maulers killing them both, it then fired its tesla fired at the forgefiend and kill it. (After reading its rules after the game i found out it couldn't target my forgefiend with its tesla.)

Holy Jaysus, ouch!
And they took the DP down too?

Write up a little tactical analysis for us if you have the time, interesting matchup imo.
I thought initally Chaos didnt have much to deal with the flyers but had the tougher/harder units.

Nice pics btw and easy to follow.

Yea the the doomscythe killed over half my army, it got the daemon prince on the next turn firing the death ray backwards. Pretty brutal. Not much i could do. After that it was just hold the relic and hope, but my trusty cultists legged it.

Charge the overlord was pretty depressing as well, since i have over 100 attacks that were wasted since i had to challenge.

Nice report. Those doomscythes are nasty, I feel your pain, lol. Though correct me if I am wrong, I thought you couldn't take a dedicated transport if the unit you are taking it for is too big to fit in the first place. How did he get two ghost arks for his 2 blobs of 20 warriors? Unless 6th changed this, i honestly haven't looked into it, but I can't imagine them changing that from 5th. Not a big deal if he did make that mistake, it's easily rectified if you just put 5 warriors in each ark.

Too bad about the fight. Necrons are really tough and doom scythes are fething ridiculous at times (even though he played it illegally).

MSS (Mindshackle scarabs) are the shiznit. They're another one of those ridiculously good wargear items that the crons possess.

 WhiteWolf01 wrote:
Nice report. Those doomscythes are nasty, I feel your pain, lol. Though correct me if I am wrong, I thought you couldn't take a dedicated transport if the unit you are taking it for is too big to fit in the first place. How did he get two ghost arks for his 2 blobs of 20 warriors? Unless 6th changed this, i honestly haven't looked into it, but I can't imagine them changing that from 5th. Not a big deal if he did make that mistake, it's easily rectified if you just put 5 warriors in each ark.

You can take the transport. You just can't deploy in it until the unit is reduced to a size that can fit in there.

He can deploy it without the warriors in jus like marines do with razorbacks.

But Doomscythes, firing death ray across two units, is ok but then i think you need to shoot the tesla at one of those units... and i dont think it has a 360 field to shoot anyways...

He played the Doom Scythe correctly, the Death Ray does not nominate a target and per its rules can nominate any point with 12" (LOS not a requirement), and can still fire its Tesla at any dedicated target. It sucks and it's broken, but he didn't cheat. He did however get incredibly lucky with the distance roll when he barrelled your DP.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Steffo wrote:
Charge the overlord was pretty depressing as well, since i have over 100 attacks that were wasted since i had to challenge.

Which is why that was a huge mistake, not to mention the Scarabs. A better move would have been to detach the Lord and try and make it that the Cultist champion is the one to suffer Mindshackles, meaning then there is no requirment to challenge and you can bludgeon him to death.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
He played the Doom Scythe correctly, the Death Ray does not nominate a target and per its rules can nominate any point with 12" (LOS not a requirement), and can still fire its Tesla at any dedicated target. It sucks and it's broken, but he didn't cheat. He did however get incredibly lucky with the distance roll when he barrelled your DP.

Though I don't have my codex with me at the moment, I'm pretty sure the teslas need to fire at a unit hit by the deathray (though someone with the codex please prove otherwise if I am wrong). However, besides that, he illegally fired his doom scythe because you need to declare all targets at once. You can't fire 1 weapon, see its results and then fire your other gun at a completely different target. In other words, he saw the damage he did with his deathray and then decided to fire his tesla elsewhere afterwards. You need to declare all targets before you fire. Not saying he purposefully cheated, but it's a common enough mistake that many people make.

Steffo wrote:
Charge the overlord was pretty depressing as well, since i have over 100 attacks that were wasted since i had to challenge.

Which is why that was a huge mistake, not to mention the Scarabs. A better move would have been to detach the Lord and try and make it that the Cultist champion is the one to suffer Mindshackles, meaning then there is no requirment to challenge and you can bludgeon him to death.

Ah, but the Necron Lord can still challenge the the cultist champion (or the Lord if he so charges as well independently of the unit). But more importantly, the cultists aren't fearless. If they assault separately, they run the risk of getting swept should they lose combat.

 jy2 wrote:
However, besides that, he illegally fired his doom scythe because you need to declare all targets at once. You can't fire 1 weapon, see its results and then fire your other gun at a completely different target. In other words, he saw the damage he did with his deathray and then decided to fire his tesla elsewhere afterwards.

We can't really know that from the report as it currently stands. The report simply says he used the deathray, then fired the TD, which could easily mean that he declared both at the same time and chose to resolve the DR first.

jy2 wrote:Though I don't have my codex with me at the moment, I'm pretty sure the teslas need to fire at a unit hit by the deathray (though someone with the codex please prove otherwise if I am wrong). However, besides that, he illegally fired his doom scythe because you need to declare all targets at once. You can't fire 1 weapon, see its results and then fire your other gun at a completely different target. In other words, he saw the damage he did with his deathray and then decided to fire his tesla elsewhere afterwards. You need to declare all targets before you fire. Not saying he purposefully cheated, but it's a common enough mistake that many people make.

I have the Codex, there is no restriction, the Death Ray nominates a point and that's it. The Tesla is not forced to fire at something that was hit. You are right that he should have declared all targets at once however, though the report may have just made it look that way.

jy2 wrote:Ah, but the Necron Lord can still challenge the the cultist champion (or the Lord if he so charges as well independently of the unit). But more importantly, the cultists aren't fearless. If they assault separately, they run the risk of getting swept should they lose combat.

In which case the Cultists champion dies, the Cultists hold, and they bludgeon him the next round. Not ideal, but much better than sending a Lord and the Relic to their deaths. Ideally I would say they shouldn't charge at all, but combat was the safest place for them to be at that point.

Steffo wrote:
Yea the the doomscythe killed over half my army, it got the daemon prince on the next turn firing the death ray backwards.

that happens to be because doom scythes are OP they can get back twice their points the turn they arrive easily... tbh, there isnt much you can do against them, but pray to the dice gods... who i see were not realy in your favour this match... Methinks you didnt sacrifice enough people, and *accidentaly* break enough medicine...

Godless-Mimicry wrote:He played the Doom Scythe correctly, the Death Ray does not nominate a target and per its rules can nominate any point with 12" (LOS not a requirement), and can still fire its Tesla at any dedicated target. It sucks and it's broken, but he didn't cheat. He did however get incredibly lucky with the distance roll when he barrelled your DP.

Which is why that was a huge mistake, not to mention the Scarabs. A better move would have been to detach the Lord and try and make it that the Cultist champion is the one to suffer Mindshackles, meaning then there is no requirment to challenge and you can bludgeon him to death.

Yea instant deathing my DP was just the cherry on top for him.

I should have challenged with my cultist champion and just tried to survive with the relic in combat, might have lasted longer, although those warriors probably would have charged and cleaned me up. It was definitely a big mistake tho. However the cultist champ still has to challenge if the lord leaves the unit, and the mindshackle scarabs would work on him but the rest of my unit cant attack him since he is in the challenge.

Avatar 720 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
However, besides that, he illegally fired his doom scythe because you need to declare all targets at once. You can't fire 1 weapon, see its results and then fire your other gun at a completely different target. In other words, he saw the damage he did with his deathray and then decided to fire his tesla elsewhere afterwards.

We can't really know that from the report as it currently stands. The report simply says he used the deathray, then fired the TD, which could easily mean that he declared both at the same time and chose to resolve the DR first.

He didn't declare his targets at once.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

jy2 wrote:Though I don't have my codex with me at the moment, I'm pretty sure the teslas need to fire at a unit hit by the deathray (though someone with the codex please prove otherwise if I am wrong). However, besides that, he illegally fired his doom scythe because you need to declare all targets at once. You can't fire 1 weapon, see its results and then fire your other gun at a completely different target. In other words, he saw the damage he did with his deathray and then decided to fire his tesla elsewhere afterwards. You need to declare all targets before you fire. Not saying he purposefully cheated, but it's a common enough mistake that many people make.

I have the Codex, there is no restriction, the Death Ray nominates a point and that's it. The Tesla is not forced to fire at something that was hit. You are right that he should have declared all targets at once however, though the report may have just made it look that way.

The last sentence under the death ray states that the tesla has to be fired at one of the targets hit by the death ray.

Looks like you were foiled by an incident of blatant cheating…..

I'm sure next game you have the heavy support will survive a turn.

 vossyvo wrote:
Looks like you were foiled by an incident of blatant cheating…..

I'm sure next game you have the heavy support will survive a turn.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it blatant cheating. People make rules mistakes all the time. Even I am guilty of doing that once in a while. But what separates making a mistake and cheating is Intent. If he knows the rule (i.e. I've told him about it or someone else has told him about the correct ruling and he agrees with it) but he still intentionally makes the illegal play, then I would call him a cheater. Otherwise, I tend to give my opponent the benefit of the doubt (unless there are multiple such "incidents" in our game).

Very true, I overreacted a bit there.

It was probably just a misunderstanding of the rules by the Necron player, as you suggested.

If he consistently made glaring rule oversights and list calculation errors I’m sure steffo would have called him on it by now.

Also on the deathray it makes no exception to the wound allocation rules requiring line of sight. Sure you can deal the unit wounds but cant allocate to anyone you cant see.

So you can fire it backwards all you want, just none of the wounds can be allocated.

vossyvo wrote:If he consistently made glaring rule oversights and list calculation errors I’m sure steffo would have called him on it by now.

Well he suffers from forgetting to read all of his rules and just glossing over the good bits.

Leth wrote:Also on the deathray it makes no exception to the wound allocation rules requiring line of sight. Sure you can deal the unit wounds but cant allocate to anyone you cant see.

So you can fire it backwards all you want, just none of the wounds can be allocated.

Now you are getting into the realms of if the death ray is turret or hull mount with 360 or 45 degree LOS, with lots of arguments either way, it is subject to much debate, it needs to be FAQ to say its hull mounted but until then i cant justify fielding vehicles like the forgefiend, land raiders, even maulers if i go second, with two death rays a daemon prince wont survive long, plague marines are as tough as cultists, oblits have no chance. So mass cultists, havocs, helldrakes, with a quad gun seems to be the only response. Doesn't leave me many options to deal with a MSS overlord on a CCB. And i have to leave my daemon engines at home :(

Nice BR there Steffo. keep up the good work with the chaos.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

jy2 wrote:Though I don't have my codex with me at the moment, I'm pretty sure the teslas need to fire at a unit hit by the deathray (though someone with the codex please prove otherwise if I am wrong). However, besides that, he illegally fired his doom scythe because you need to declare all targets at once. You can't fire 1 weapon, see its results and then fire your other gun at a completely different target. In other words, he saw the damage he did with his deathray and then decided to fire his tesla elsewhere afterwards. You need to declare all targets before you fire. Not saying he purposefully cheated, but it's a common enough mistake that many people make.

I have the Codex, there is no restriction, the Death Ray nominates a point and that's it. The Tesla is not forced to fire at something that was hit. You are right that he should have declared all targets at once however, though the report may have just made it look that way.

jy2 wrote:Ah, but the Necron Lord can still challenge the the cultist champion (or the Lord if he so charges as well independently of the unit). But more importantly, the cultists aren't fearless. If they assault separately, they run the risk of getting swept should they lose combat.

In which case the Cultists champion dies, the Cultists hold, and they bludgeon him the next round. Not ideal, but much better than sending a Lord and the Relic to their deaths. Ideally I would say they shouldn't charge at all, but combat was the safest place for them to be at that point.

Something similar would be JoTWW, as it's a line power. The first unit hit is the targetted unit.

As for wounded outside of the guns arc, yea that's a bit of "cheating"

the deathray is hull mounted, which means it has a 45 degree frontal arc of fire. You put the start of the line anywhere within 12" of that arc and roll the 3d6. after that you draw the line/beam and count up hits/wounds. The weapon allows you to fire behind it by its torrent style rule, but it does NOT state it circumvent LoS rules in the codex and hasn't been FAQd, so it can HIT out of line of sight but it cannot WOUND out of line of sight. Its prety straight foward, any1 trying to say otherwise is blantantly cheating and trying to "loophole" a way to make the obviously hull mounted weapon into a turret...and its not. The rulebook says to go off the model in question as to hul mounted or otherwise if it does not state it in the codex. the weapon attaches on a non rotatable center piece with two "cables" on either side. If it was meant to be turret mounted, the model would have easilyl been designed to, heck a savvy converter could easilly do it with some greenstuff/plasticard, though it would be MFA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
they REALLY need to FAQ the torrent rule/deathray to state outright that it follows normal LOS rules, to end this petty debate of loophole whoring and common sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
sorry for the long post, but another thing i noticed about is the MSS. you as the controlling player (assuming its your assault phase and you character ISN'T in base to base contact already) choose which effects happen first in the fight subphase, which both challenges (moving the challengers in btb) and the MSS. the overlord would only be able to choose one of the models he had BtB contact before you challenge so your lord would have gotten off free and clear. For some reason people arent doing this little trick to counter a predictable ability. Still makes it silly fun to force a GK DK to kill itself with its own force weapon/greatsword XD

overlordweasel wrote:
the deathray is hull mounted, which means it has a 45 degree frontal arc of fire. You put the start of the line anywhere within 12" of that arc and roll the 3d6. after that you draw the line/beam and count up hits/wounds. The weapon allows you to fire behind it by its torrent style rule, but it does NOT state it circumvent LoS rules in the codex and hasn't been FAQd, so it can HIT out of line of sight but it cannot WOUND out of line of sight. Its prety straight foward, any1 trying to say otherwise is blantantly cheating and trying to "loophole" a way to make the obviously hull mounted weapon into a turret...and its not. The rulebook says to go off the model in question as to hul mounted or otherwise if it does not state it in the codex. the weapon attaches on a non rotatable center piece with two "cables" on either side. If it was meant to be turret mounted, the model would have easilyl been designed to, heck a savvy converter could easilly do it with some greenstuff/plasticard, though it would be MFA.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
sorry for the long post, but another thing i noticed about is the MSS. you as the controlling player (assuming its your assault phase and you character ISN'T in base to base contact already) choose which effects happen first in the fight subphase, which both challenges (moving the challengers in btb) and the MSS. the overlord would only be able to choose one of the models he had BtB contact before you challenge so your lord would have gotten off free and clear. For some reason people arent doing this little trick to counter a predictable ability. Still makes it silly fun to force a GK DK to kill itself with its own force weapon/greatsword XD

I will try and work it out with my opponent and get him to think along the same lines, because shooting backwards is just ridiculous. I don't think my opponent thinks it ignores the normal LOS rules, just that it is turret mounted and can see 360 degrees. I read numerous posts to see if shooting backwards with the deathray was allowed and there are so many arguments either way. I hoped this report would of been flooded with people saying it can't be done, but there have only been a couple towards the end. Some of the heavy hitters like Godless-mimicry and jy2 both didn't object which led me to think it can shoot backwards. It is altogether confusing.

I did not know that about MSS, that is a handy little trick that is almost a must use with chaos because i have to challenge.I better kill him in the first round tho because it is all downhill from there.I will have to further read the challenge rules and the MSS rules and iron out my argument, cheers for that tip.

The deathray (and also torrent weapons like the heldrake's baleflamer) are controversial weapons that really do need to get FAQ'd. Until that happens, you just need to discuss with your opponent on how to play it.

I didn't get into it here because this thread is not about how the deathray works. But since we are already on the subject, I believe that the RAI (rules-as-intended) is that it probably should work. However, by actual RAW, overlordweasel is pretty much correct. You can't allocate wounds to units you can't see unless you make certain assumptions which the rules don't actually tell you you can do (i.e. that you don't need LOS to target a unit). It's definitely something that needs to be agreed upon and if you think you will encounter this in a tournament, best to ask the TO beforehand.

I will try and work it out with my opponent and get him to think along the same lines, because shooting backwards is just ridiculous. I don't think my opponent thinks it ignores the normal LOS rules, just that it is turret mounted and can see 360 degrees. I read numerous posts to see if shooting backwards with the deathray was allowed and there are so many arguments either way. I hoped this report would of been flooded with people saying it can't be done, but there have only been a couple towards the end. Some of the heavy hitters like Godless-mimicry and jy2 both didn't object which led me to think it can shoot backwards. It is altogether confusing.

The deathray allows you to place the start of the beam anywhere within 12" of the 45 degree arc, which also counts vertically as well as horizontal. Meaning placing the starting point directly under the weapon (which is were you draw LoS from) an illegal action in and of itself. This also goes for any weapon on a flyer as well, the 45 degree arc counting horizontal and vertical. Which to me, takes alot of the "OPness" that flyers are labeled with, as with smart positioning, its fairly easy to dodge the 45 degree arc of the 10S ap1 beam. Seriously, jump infantry and anything moving 12"+ is the death of any flyer spam army, just move directly under them, shoot them, regardless if you pop it or not, it HAS to zoom its minimum 18" with only a 90 degree turn unless certain flyers go hover mode, which then are skimmers and easy to deal with.

And yes, the MSS trick is a good counter, imagine my furry when i cant use it on draigo instead of a basic SM....while draigo makes my overlord his bitch in the challenge. GOOD THING I GET THOSE D3 HITS!!! oh wait, i missed those attacks and my entire squad and HQ is gone in one assault phase *flip table*