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First of all,

If Abbadon rolls Dark Apotheosis does he become a Daemon Prince of all four god? Because it says in the entry that the retain the mark of their god if they have a mark and become a daemon of that god. Same question for spawn, would he be a spawn of all four gods?

Also If a character rolls of the boons chart throughout the game and has multiple boons for example Warp Frenzy : +1 attack and Cosmic Fate: Re-roll failed armour saves. In the Champions Of Chaos rule it states that " This boon lasts for the rest of the game ". If that character rolls of the boons again and get either Spawn Hood or Dark Apotheosis it states that " The champion is now a separate, unengaged, non-scoring unit that retains none of the champion's special rules or wargear ". Does this mean that the champion still retains their boons because it states that they last for the rest of the game and boons table is neither a special rule or wargear? If so the case that character if they rolled Dark Apotheosis would become a Daemon Prince that has the Warp Frenzy and Cosmic Fate boons?

I would say yes to the first question. Mark of Chaos Ascendant states Abaddon has all four Chaos Marks. Therefore, when spawned, he retains all four marks. Similarly, when DP'd, he has all four marks, so he becomes a DP of all four gods.

The second question is trickier, but I would say yes as well. How I see it working is first, is the Chaos Boon a special rule or piece of wargear? It's obviously not wargear, so is it a special rule? I would say no. Champion of Chaos, the special rule that allows you to roll, would be lost. But the boons are not special rules, they are simply something the champion now has. Since they are neither wargear nor a special rule, they are not lost.

Now, the second question is whether or not the special rule is retained by the spawn/DP, as he is not the same model. However, the rule states that when you kill a character you roll to see "what boon (if any) your champion has gained." Note, it doesn't reference the model. Next, under the Spawndom result, it states that "champion is now a separate, un-engaged, non-scoring unit". So, the champion, for all purposes is the spawn, so the boon would carry forth, regardless of the model. Similar to the way that the warlord status carries through.

However, the argument could be made that boons are a special rule. I don't know if there is any precedent for things that are neither special rules nor wargear, which might lend weight to the argument that it is either a special rule or a wargear item. I would say it is more like warlord status than a special rule or wargear item though, and thus would affect the spawn/DP.

I agree with some of what ur saying. if a character rolled on the boons table and received a stat increase, for example +1 attacks or weapon skill then it would carry through for the rest of the game even if dark apotheosis or spawnhood was rolled because there is no special rule. if a character received one of the boons special rules, such as shrouded, shred, eternal warrior from the chart he may lose this as the character does not retain any special rules after becoming spawn/DP

But it is the boon he retains which in having so gives him the special rule again. So if a Chaos Lord rolled Fragment Of Immortality and gains eternal warrior and then rolls Dark Apotheosis or Spawnhood next turn he would lose all special rules including his Eternal Warrior but then re-gain Eternal Warrior because he still has the Boon that grants Eternal Warrior.

I would agree with lloiero. The champion doesn't gain a "boon" as something which is permanently attached to him. He gains the result of the boon. I say this because I treat boons as permanent modifiers to characteristics, such that a toughness test on a lord who got the result of Crystalline Body uses toughness 5, even if it specifies unmodified. If it worked the way you suggested, you would then use toughness 4 (as Crystalline Body is a modifier in this case), which I believe to be an incorrect interpretation. Those which grant special rules to the character would be lost. Now some, which grant special rules to his attacks such as Venomous or others, like Icy Aura, I would argue he keeps, as it is not a special rule he gains, you simply apply the special rule to his attacks or what have you.

I see where you are coming from but the wording says the "Boon" lasts for the remainder of the game not the effect of the boon which would imply the actual modifiers to statelines and any special rules. Also note that the whole Champions Of Chaos rule refers to "Boons" as well and that it specifies "...refer to the table opposite to see what 'boon' ( if any ) your champion has gained." That to me says that a boon is always there and that the character always receives its effects while it is around ( the rest of the game ).

I see it as two different things. "Chaos Boons", as in those things specifically referred to in the table, and "boons", which just mean the conferred benefit. They seem to make such a distinction in their example, where they say it is the "Mechanoid Chaos Boon" and then the next one says that a "boon" lasts for the rest of the game. While you may not agree this makes a difference, GW often uses capitalization to differentiate between one thing and the next, for example, "attacks" does not mean the same thing as "Attacks"; where they mean "Attacks", they will always capitalize it.

They specifically mention "Mechanoid Chaos Boon" as an example and then next refer to "boon" to represent any result from the Boons Table. I don't see them as two different things as such, I see Chaos Boons as the name of the table that contains all the individual boons. Each boon has its own unique name after you roll and receive a boon you now have that boon for the rest of the game. And as a result of have a boon it confers a specific benefit while you have. Now if we have concluded that a boon carries through spawnhood and dark apotheosis, then even a boon that gives a special rule should carry through as well. And as I have stated and the codex states "This boon lasts for the rest of the game." not the effect of the boon.

And just something else I noticed,

In the champions of chaos rule it states "... your champion would now benefit from the Mechanoid Chaos Boon" not your champion would now have the conferred benefit of Mechanoid Chaos Boon.

Sorry if my reply has poor structure lol I suck a English

Sure. He benefits from the Mechanoid "Chaos Boon", which confers a "boon" of an improved armour save. To me, it seems that if your reading is correct, they would have either said "Your champion benefits from the Mechanoid boon" or "This Chaos Boon lasts for the rest of the game". Generally, when GW switches capitalization, they mean to differentiate between what they are talking about. For example, "Attack" always refers to melee attacks, whereas "attacks" can refer to both melee and shooting attacks. For an example of this, compare the wording in "Hammer of Wrath" and "Soul Blaze" in the BRB.

The way I understand it, "boon" is just a synonym for benefit, whereas a "Chaos Boon" is a specific thing. The champion does not ever receive the "Mechanoid Chaos Boon", he receives the benefit. They don't say that the Champion has the "Mechanoid Chaos Boon", they say he "would now benefit from" it. Which means what the champion really has is +1 armour, or, in the case of one granting a USR, he has the USR.

Doesn't he lose the "champion" title if he is transformed? How is a Chaos Spawn, or Demon Prince a "champion"? He is a new unit, ie no longer a champion.

Still the champion. Pg. 29: "The champion is now a separate, unengaged, non-scoring unit"

I understand what you mean now (my poor English skills kicked in) by the difference between 'Chaos Boons' and 'boon'.
I was looking at the rule sort of wrong, I thought they were specifically talking about the named boons but turns out that the word boons actually means 'A thing that is helpful or beneficial.' and that it is a synonym like you for the words blessing, benefit or favor.

So I believe you are right about this, but what about special that apply to their attacks, I mean that after all they are still special rules from the rules section of the BRB even though they effect how the model attacks, right?

I would say that the champion would keep the Venemous and Lifetaker benefits. This is because the model doesn't have the Poison USR, or the Instant Death USR. Neither are they contained within a piece of wargear, as are Blademaster and Gun Morph. I think they would be best characterized as "abilities"/"boons" of the champion, and not special rules.

However, of this I am less certain. I'd have to see if there is a precedent for benefits that are neither special rules or wargear in 6th edition.

kaisshau wrote:
This is because the model doesn't have the Poison USR, or the Instant Death USR. Neither are they contained within a piece of wargear

But it states his melee attack has these rules and melee attacks are made with close combat weapons are they not?

Yes, normally. But this confers the rule to all his attacks. Suppose the Lord was a Hellbrute with two powerfists. If you destroyed both of his fists, his attacks would still have the instant death or poison rule. Same with a lord that might have three melee weapons, or none. The rule is not written "The Champion's Melee weapons now have the instant death rule." But obviously, the champion cannot have the "Instant Death" USR, as it is said to be in "an Attack" by the BRB. So he must have a benefit that confers the USR to his attacks, regardless of source. However, as a model can have the Poison USR, the argument is less strong. But, the Chaos codex is not written in such a way as to confer the Poison USR on the model, so it seems that it would be more like the Instant Death one than any of the other special rule ones.

The question for this is really, what is a special rule? Are the rules that the champion would have, like the aura from Icy Aura, special rules? The BRB makes an allowance for special rules outside the USR... I think it depends on your definition of "special rule". On further reading, I'd say that all USR's are definitely lost, all statline bonuses are kept, and non-USR non-statline bonuses are probably lost as well. Unless someone can find me a way in which the benefits of the boons are not special rules.

Direct quote,
"The champion's melee attacks have the instant death special rule."

Melee attacks are made by weapons but then again it does not state that the champions weapons have the instant death special rule it just says melee attacks which would mean any attack made in close combat right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Special rules can be defined as,

"...an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules..."

Page 32 of the BRB

Correct. It is possible for a champion to have no melee weapons. His attacks would still have Instant Death. And yes, they probably are counted as special rules, and thus are lost.

As soon as he has no actual CCW, he then has a fake one

BRB says he is "treated as being armed with". Not that he is equipped with one. It would be different if they said "It is assumed they are armed with a single CCW". The champion still doesn't have one, so there is nothing which contains the ID rule. Thus, if he somehow lost all wargear but kept special rules, he would still retain the ID rule.

I think the thing that keeps being missed here is that the "Champion of Chaos" rule that allows you to roll on the boon table in the first place... is a special rule. It is listed as such in every unit entry in the codex that has it. So if you ascend or devolve you lose your special rules, such as Champion of Chaos.

I realize that the retention of all the abilities is a grey area and will hopefully be FAQd in the future. However, it's not fair to your opponent if they suddenly have to deal with a super prince or spawn.

That what we have said, and we know they lose the champions of chaos rule, but some of the boons are neither special rules or wargear and are thus retained RAW. The boons table is a part of the codex that you have access to as a result of either champions of chaos or gift of mutation, so it is still its own thing and is not lost to the character because it is part of the codex.