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That is true.
But we're talking about buying counterfeit products from overseas.
As long as I am not selling them or buying a gigantic bulk the law has no problem with it.
I usually don't even have to pay additional taxes on it, which I have to do if I am import shirts from threadless.com

Alpha 1 wrote:
Selling counterfeit products is a criminal offence in Canada and the United States and I think it is considered a criminal offence in UK , I remember that in 2009 I think the London Police did a huge anti counterfeit sweeps in some of the really popular markets in the city.

Recasts are not counterfeits unless they explicitly try to pass themselves off as legitimate. Counterfeiting is different from plain infringement in that it includes the intent to defraud. Recasts are produced with different materials to different quality standards with different packaging at greatly different prices. The recasters I know also explicitly state what they are during transactions.

They are smaller too, so nothing like the GW models at all.

Makumba wrote:
They are smaller too, so nothing like the GW models at all.

That would be down to a flaw in the reproduction process, it isn't the case in the ones I've knowingly seen.

Yonan counterfeit is an unauthorized copy and even if the recast models did not contain the GW logo or other trademarks I can guarantee that GW has all of their designs trademarked meaning if you recast a Space Marine and call it a replica or even said it is not an official product it is still considered counterfeit because you have copied a very specific design that is owned by GW. Now owning said counterfeit even making them is not illegal it becomes illegal when you start to sell and distribute them.



Kangodo: You are right buying counterfeit is not illegal but there are other reasons why I am against buying these products and you can find them here when I made my first post

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/360/603645.page

In criminal law. To forge; to copy or imitate, without authority or right, and with a view to deceive or defraud, by passing the copy or tiling forged for that which is original or genuine. Most commonly applied to the fraudulent and criminal imitation of money.

Law Dictionary: What is COUNTERFEIT? definition of COUNTERFEIT (Black's Law Dictionary)

Some countries do have weird laws about reproducing stuff you don't own the IP for so it's perfectly possible the recasts areproduced and sold from a place where it's legal to do so and sent toward the rest of the world where owning said recasts is also legal, making the whole process 100% legal too.

Probably my favorite thing is how the propaganda war for Intellectual Property has been lost as those who were pre-teens in the time of Napster have reached adulthood. People keep trying the same tired slogans the MPAA and RIAA came up with 10+ years ago and they're just sounding hollow.

Azrael13, I thought your point about asserting what other people's motivations are being untenable was fantastic. It's very strange to hear people go "My reason is X" and immediately have someone say "The reason you do it is Y". And it's always done as part of trotting out an old propaganda talking point from a lobby group.

Yonan's point about counterfeiting involving the intent to defraud is also excellent. Furthermore this whole thread is based on the situation that you know that the models across the table are recast. There's not even an attempt to deceive on the other player's part.

I also find the transfer of material argument to be fairly persuasive. That the recast actually constitutes a new work (albeit a derivative one) because of it's change into a different material. I know when Finecast came out there was a big upsurge in recasters offering Finecast models in metal and resin. They even took the time to fill in all the micro bubbles and repair the miscasts before they made their moulds. So you ended up with a transfer to a different medium and a better quality product.

 frozenwastes wrote:


I also find the transfer of material argument to be fairly persuasive. That the recast actually constitutes a new work (albeit a derivative one) because of it's change into a different material. I know when Finecast came out there was a big upsurge in recasters offering Finecast models in metal and resin. They even took the time to fill in all the micro bubbles and repair the miscasts before they made their moulds. So you ended up with a transfer to a different medium and a better quality product.

Fairly, as in not at all.

I'm with many others here in that I don't have a problem playing a nice guy fielding recasts. But some of the attempts at claiming the moral high ground are pretty dubious, like this "transfer of material" argument. There is no way on our little green earth that copying an item but using a slightly different medium is anything but copying. I'll leave the other assertions as they've been done to death.

GW has destroyed any good will that I ever had for them. I might be a little put off that said friend isn't supporting a gaming store (local or otherwise) by using recasts, but I could not care less about the financial implications for Games Workshop.

I'd play them, it's like buying montreal style bagels even if you're in ottawa.. Same recipe, just a different guy mad 'em.

Interesting to hear so much justification for stealing. That is absolutely what recasts are. Regardless of the impact to GW or your hatred of them or their prices, it is unethical.

I don't expect that this will change any of your opinions, but deep down you know that it isn't right.

If he is not selling them for profit, sure I would play with him. This is kind of a similar discussion to playing against people with scratch-built models. They are both not supporting the company and are not having to buy GW or FW products. As long as they don't look like utter junk, I'd play against someone with recasts. If they throw in custom parts and sculpts into the recast, and they look great, I'd definitely play against them.

 cvtuttle wrote:
Interesting to hear so much justification for stealing. That is absolutely what recasts are. Regardless of the impact to GW or your hatred of them or their prices, it is unethical.

Something can be legal and unethical, or the reverse even. However, the buying and selling of recast models is categorically NOT stealing, because theft involves the loss of property by the victim. It doesn't matter how often you, or other posters, state it as a fact, you will be wrong. Feel free to argue it is illegal, or that it is infringing GW's IP, but stop calling it stealing, it isn't and it is just a cheap trick using emotive language to try and reinforce your argument.

I don't expect that this will change any of your opinions, but deep down you know that it isn't right.

Again, right or wrong and legal and illegal are not necessarily allied. But, let's face it, in the grand scheme of things, it is a small wrong.

Yes, with qualifiers for me.

1) I won't play with someone using recasts of something they could have bought at the store I play at if they're a regular. That's just being a cheap donkey-cave absuing someone else's generosity (I also make snide remarks to one local TFG who buys everything on Ebay to save himself about 5%, so that's not strictly recast related)

2) I won't play against recasts of the product of smaller, independent companies. I'm a big fan of protecting the little guys so they can find their niche, so non-GW recasts are a no-go for me.

Additionally, while I'll play against someone using recasts, if their recasts of stuff which is reasonably priced and they're just being cheap, I'll let them know that. Forgeworld is the only thing I've seen recasts of, aside from a single Ironclad dreadnought one guy got in a big used lot, and recast superheavies and other stuff which is absolutely insanely priced doesn't bother me in the least, but I wouldn't condone a wholly recast army or someone recasting the few reasonably priced things, like the Terminators FW makes being only marginally more expensive than GW's while being infinitely better. I love Forgeworld's work, I want to see their artists rewarded and that branch of GW not only do well, but out-perform core GW so that GW might see some of the stuff FW does right, like communication, marketing and not fluff-raping things and otherwise being dicks, but I totally recognize their pricing structure is even more out of whack than GW, and there are limits to my support.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
Yes, with qualifiers for me.

1) I won't play with someone using recasts of something they could have bought at the store I play at if they're a regular. That's just being a cheap donkey-cave absuing someone else's generosity (I also make snide remarks to one local TFG who buys everything on Ebay to save himself about 5%, so that's not strictly recast related)

A distinction without a difference, whether the models are recast or not is redundant to your point, and the why and wherefores of "pay where you play" aren't pertinent to the topic and age been heavily debated in other threads (although I personally agree, if for no other reason than if your gaming venue doesn't have an income, it will close and you may have nowhere else to play - it's a purely selfish personal reason with no moral element.)

2) I won't play against recasts of the product of smaller, independent companies. I'm a big fan of protecting the little guys so they can find their niche, so non-GW recasts are a no-go for me.

While I empathise with the sentiment, if we are debating the morality of recasting, whose models they are is moot.

Additionally, while I'll play against someone using recasts, if their recasts of stuff which is reasonably priced and they're just being cheap, I'll let them know that. Forgeworld is the only thing I've seen recasts of, aside from a single Ironclad dreadnought one guy got in a big used lot, and recast superheavies and other stuff which is absolutely insanely priced doesn't bother me in the least, but I wouldn't condone a wholly recast army or someone recasting the few reasonably priced things, like the Terminators FW makes being only marginally more expensive than GW's while being infinitely better. I love Forgeworld's work, I want to see their artists rewarded and that branch of GW not only do well, but out-perform core GW so that GW might see some of the stuff FW does right, like communication, marketing and not fluff-raping things and otherwise being dicks, but I totally recognize their pricing structure is even more out of whack than GW, and there are limits to my support.

It isn't really your call what other people are allowed to consider reasonably priced or not. That you think that over £30 for 5 models is in any sense "reasonable" suggests you're perhaps a trifle conditioned by GW's pricing. In my opinion. You see? I think some things you think are reasonably priced are in fact quite expensive for what they represent. That they are comparatively, and arguably, better value than an over priced alternative makes them no less overpriced.