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The BRB says that Independent Characters cannot join Infiltrators during deployment unless they too can Infiltrate.

My question is, are they only an Infiltrator if they are infiltrating? If I deploy a unit of scouts within my own deployment zone, can I deploy an IC with them?

Sorry if I'm just being thick-headed, it's just that not allowing an IC to join a unit of scouts, provided that they aren't infiltrating, just seems a little counter-intuitive to me...

It does seem a little counter-intuitive, yes - but I'm reading it as that's the way it is. The rest of the rule refers to Infiltrators as the unit with the rule, without defining that they have to use it to qualify. So Infiltrators means "a unit with the rule" and not "a unit using the rule".

well I wouldnt refer to a unit that deploys normally as "infitrators"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
infiltrators**

as you would ask your opponent after you both deploy "do you have an infiltrators?"

That's kind of what I was thinking. I'm wondering if there's a difference between 'Infiltrators' and 'a unit with the Infiltrate rule.'

Units with Infiltrate are Infiltrators, they deploy last regardless of whether they are deploying within deployment zone or not.

This is a fundamental change of 6th edition(much like indirect fire).

After a re-read, you appear to be correct Kel. Infiltrating appears to be compulsory now. I hadn't realized that. Crap. Is there anyway to remove the Infiltrate rule?

Is the only criteria for ICs joining units that they are within 2" of the unit? Could you not deploy the IC first and then join the unit to the IC during the infiltration deployment phase? It would make it a bit obvious as to where the unit might be going, but if you would othewise just have deployed it normally, it shouldn;t mnatter that much.

No, because the IC would still be joining the unit during deployment. You COULD set them up out of line of sight just over 2" away and move them in in your first turn though.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Units with Infiltrate are Infiltrators, they deploy last regardless of whether they are deploying within deployment zone or not.

This is a fundamental change of 6th edition(much like indirect fire).

Actually no, that's exactly the same way they should have been played in 5th as well. The only change is that the rule is not lost when an IC joins the unit as they are simply barred from joining infiltrators during deployment unless they have infiltrate as well.

IC's are barred from joining infiltrators during deployment unless they have infiltrate as well.

If you deploy an IC, then Deploy a infiltrating unit in coherency with the IC, the IC has not joined the unit during deployment, and you are kosher.

 DeathReaper wrote:
IC's are barred from joining infiltrators during deployment unless they have infiltrate as well.
If you deploy an IC, then Deploy a infiltrating unit in coherency with the IC, the IC has not joined the unit during deployment, and you are kosher.

I've reread page 39, and I agree - but I'd still say it's open to debate. In this situation the IC would be within 2" of the unit during deployment. As I see it, this can be read one of two ways:
1) as per page 39, the IC will "begin the game already with a unit (...) by being deployed in unit coherency with it". As the IC doesn't have Infiltrate, this is disallowed.
2) the IC deploys within 2" of the unit, and this isn't considered deploying with it as the two units were placed separately.

As we're not usually restricted from placing friendly models from different units within 2" of each other, option 2 seems valid to me.

So just out of curiosity, what happens when an IC (and his unit) get Infiltrate, such as Karandras and a Striking Scorpion squad with no Exarch?

 Super Ready wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
IC's are barred from joining infiltrators during deployment unless they have infiltrate as well.
If you deploy an IC, then Deploy a infiltrating unit in coherency with the IC, the IC has not joined the unit during deployment, and you are kosher.

I've reread page 39, and I agree - but I'd still say it's open to debate. In this situation the IC would be within 2" of the unit during deployment. As I see it, this can be read one of two ways:
1) as per page 39, the IC will "begin the game already with a unit (...) by being deployed in unit coherency with it". As the IC doesn't have Infiltrate, this is disallowed.
2) the IC deploys within 2" of the unit, and this isn't considered deploying with it as the two units were placed separately.

As we're not usually restricted from placing friendly models from different units within 2" of each other, option 2 seems valid to me.

The IC can not deploy within 2" of the unit as he is placed long before the unit is on the board.

Indeed. He ends up within 2", but was not placed within

So in turn one of the game, would they be joined, or just coincidentally within 2 of each other and not joined? (Thus joining at the end of their first movement phase, assuming they didn't move away...)

 Jimsolo wrote:
So in turn one of the game, would they be joined, or just coincidentally within 2 of each other and not joined? (Thus joining at the end of their first movement phase, assuming they didn't move away...)

Two separate units and are targeted as such.

Could be a bit of a risky move.

 Idolator wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
So in turn one of the game, would they be joined, or just coincidentally within 2 of each other and not joined? (Thus joining at the end of their first movement phase, assuming they didn't move away...)

Two separate units and are targeted as such.

Could be a bit of a risky move.

No, as long as the IC is in coherency with the unit then he is joined to the unit.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
So in turn one of the game, would they be joined, or just coincidentally within 2 of each other and not joined? (Thus joining at the end of their first movement phase, assuming they didn't move away...)

Two separate units and are targeted as such.

Could be a bit of a risky move.

No, as long as the IC is in coherency with the unit then he is joined to the unit.

I could be wrong (away from my rulebook at he moment), but I thought the only time a IC could join a unit is during their own movement phase? Or has that changed since last edition?

An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit by being deployed in unit coherency with it.

If you do not intend to join the IC to the unit at the end of that Movement phase, you MUST keep him over 2" away. Ergo, you can "join" him by simply not moving the units.
...*IF* they are allowed to deploy in the manner described, that is.

Everything in the rulebook says "at the end of the movement phase".

Pg 39 - "If an Independent Character does not intend to (or cannot) join a unit, it must (where possible) remain more than 2" away from it at the end of the Movement phase."

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Idolator wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
So in turn one of the game, would they be joined, or just coincidentally within 2 of each other and not joined? (Thus joining at the end of their first movement phase, assuming they didn't move away...)

Two separate units and are targeted as such.

Could be a bit of a risky move.

No, as long as the IC is in coherency with the unit then he is joined to the unit.

That is incorrect, independent Characters are considered joined to a unit if they are within 2" (coherency distance) of a unit at the end of their respsective movement phases. Deployment is not movement.

It is one of the several ways that an independent character would not be considered joined to a unit.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:
An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit by being deployed in unit coherency with it.

Except we are discussing, infiltrators. Which have to be deployed after all normal deployment. A charter without infiltrator has to deploy in the normal fashion, before infiltrators.

They can't be deployed together. The coherency portion was described above.

The IC can be deployed, then the Infiltrators can be deployed in coherency.

"An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve) by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined." P.39

 DeathReaper wrote:
The IC can be deployed, then the Infiltrators can be deployed in coherency.

"An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve) by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined." P.39

We're not going to see eye to eye on this. The IC is not depolyed with the unit, therefore is not deployed in unit coherency with it. Infiltrators deploy later.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The IC can be deployed, then the Infiltrators can be deployed in coherency.

"An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve) by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined." P.39

You did not deploy them in unit coherency with the unit, the unit was deployed in unit coherency with the IC

Technically, if the units aren't joined they're not in "coherency" at all. Coherency is a defined term which applies to whole units - they're just within 2" of each other.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The IC can be deployed, then the Infiltrators can be deployed in coherency.

"An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve) by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined." P.39

You did not deploy them in unit coherency with the unit, the unit was deployed in unit coherency with the IC

That is the same thing.

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The IC can be deployed, then the Infiltrators can be deployed in coherency.

"An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve) by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined." P.39

You did not deploy them in unit coherency with the unit, the unit was deployed in unit coherency with the IC

That is the same thing.

Yeah, who needs that silly "order of operations" thing anyway.

 DeathReaper wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The IC can be deployed, then the Infiltrators can be deployed in coherency.

"An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve) by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined." P.39

You did not deploy them in unit coherency with the unit, the unit was deployed in unit coherency with the IC

That is the same thing.

Nope, two entirely differnt things where only one complies with the actual rules.

Are you really trying to claim that {A,B} is the exact same thing as {B,A} as it pertains to a rule saying your set must look like {A,B}?