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Analysis of the farsight deathstar and why it is oh so special!!!!!

Here is what it can do

Deepstrike (with no scatter If you have farsight be warlord)
JSJ (the jet move could be 3d6 if shadowsun is the warlord i think this is the best choice)
Infilitrate (some debate is being had as to if infiltrate confers to units joined)
Shoot at 8 different targets SHOOT AT 8 TARGETS!!
4+/2+ cover save thanks to shadowsun shroud/stealth
Everything is twin linked
Everything ignores cover
Can get - stubborn, monster hunter, tank hunter (for the unit) the others are the model only so have little use
Has 100% look out sir
Hit and Run at Init 5 (cant be tied up in combat unless you want to!)
Shortest range gun 18" with jsj it can keep at least 24" from most targets
Drones are BS 3 (twin linked, ignore cover, pinning)
Volume of fire unit (40-46 total shots twin linked, ignores cover)
Quality of fire Unit (11-17 ap1/ap2 twin linked ignores cover shots)


Weaknesses -
AP3 assault weapons that reach them (kroot bubble wrap them to ward this off for a bit, and since kroot can infilatrate you got bubble wrap on the go!)
AP3 ignores cover weapons (how many of these are there? helldrake is a popular one for sure!!! got to deal with that))
AP3 blast weapons (not THAT dangerous if you spread out, due to the tau base size its hard to get more than 1-2, usually 1
AP3 large blast (a bit harder to dodge)
Psykers
Is not fearless, but can get stubborn, so morale could be an issue
The necron anti plasma thingy, but just use the other guns!!



LOAD OUT CHANGED DUE TO THE APRIL TAU FAQ ALLOWING YOU TO TAKE 2 OF A SINGLE WEAPON AND NOT HAVE THEM BE TWIN LINKED!!!

Farsight
Shadowsun
Bodyguard C&C, Multi Spec, Nuero Web Jammer, Puretide engram chip, Drone Controller, Vectored Retro Thrusters ((i love the idea of the commander tau with all his sensors of doom!!!!))
Bodyguard Plasma, Plasma, Target Lock
Bodyguard Plasma, Plasma, Target Lock
Bodyguard Plasma, Plasma, Target Lock
Bodyguard Fusion, Fusion, Target Lock
Bodyguard Missile Pod, Missile Pod, Target Lock
Bodyguard Missile Pod, Missile Pod, Target Lock
10 gun drones (including shadowsuns you could take up to 17, which you dont really need, just abalative gun drones!!)

To reiterate the above items this is a VERY unique deathstar. Able to kill 18-20 MEQ a turn!! and most of it can kill TEQ with that ap2/1

Furthermore, Most every other death star I can think up on the spot is assault in one fashion or another and cannot target that many different threats.

What this truly means is even though it is a "death star" unit it is effecitvely an army as it can always be 100% effective with its shooting not trying to kill one unit at a time. The one draw back beinf it is only one squad, which is a negative in that their is one target to shoot/assault (especially assault) but a massive bonus due to the force multipliers.....

So try and see it from the aspect not of "its alot of points in one unit" as it can mess up an entire army with the mass of targets (count em 8!!) it is able to shoot at with all that dakka which most of is ap2/1 that people cannot hide from as it ignores cover.


UNITS TO BE TATGETED AND DESTROYED!!!


Daemon Codex

Anything with breath of chaos -- template, wounds on 4+, ignores armor and cover

Flamer units all have it and are jump infantry so hit them with - 10 drones, shadow 1x fusion, farsight plasma and the airburst/missile suit - Will net you 6-7 kills guarantee killing a unit of 5

Super fast slaneesh assault unit (daemonettees) if a full unit of 20 (do people take 20?) same units as above can do....18 wounds, so 5+ save...11-12 dead from one round of shooting ouch for daemonettes!! Then lets let them charge and just do an overwatch from 46 shots....11 wounds, 7 dead.

Unless you leave Farsight somewhere else, you cant infiltrate with him in the squad.

Also i though that whole IC with infiltrate giving whole squad infiltrate was still in debate and should be noted.

Asides from that, i believe something that will drop in that danger close should just take danger close weapons, 6 out of 7 body guards should have some combo of plasma fusion and flamer with a target lock (if possible doubles of the same so they can focus there own priority target (tank/meq/teq ect) but this is also debated.)

as well the pure damage output would only take out at most somthing like 20 odd TEQ or 6-8 vehicles its great if they survive but they better take out that enemy deathstar first or they will have bad times.

Key thing to point out about the Puretide Engram chip: It gives the model those rules. Now that's fine because Tank hunter, Monster Hunter, and Counter Attack are all "contagious" rules, only one model has to have it. But Furious Charge isn't. SO there's no way to get a strength 6 farsight, sorry.

 Desubot wrote:
Unless you leave Farsight somewhere else, you cant infiltrate with him in the squad.

Also i though that whole IC with infiltrate giving whole squad infiltrate was still in debate and should be noted.

Asides from that, i believe something that will drop in that danger close should just take danger close weapons, 6 out of 7 body guards should have some combo of plasma fusion and flamer with a target lock (if possible doubles of the same so they can focus there own priority target (tank/meq/teq ect) but this is also debated.)

I added a note for infilitrate


What do you consider danger close? since they can jsj on 3d6 they will never have to be that close. Even if you want rapid fire plasma all the time you could be as a unit within....10-12" of your targets (get it targets) and then jump back an average of 9-10" so your a good 20" back.

I personally dont want to get close enough for flamers....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:
Key thing to point out about the Puretide Engram chip: It gives the model those rules. Now that's fine because Tank hunter, Monster Hunter, and Counter Attack are all "contagious" rules, only one model has to have it. But Furious Charge isn't. SO there's no way to get a strength 6 farsight, sorry.

Thankfully the list isnt counting on assautling anything to win, we are still tau after all!!

 Desubot wrote:
Unless you leave Farsight somewhere else, you cant infiltrate with him in the squad.

That's actually debatable, too, I tend to think when they said "can't attach during infiltration" they were only saying you had to attach the IC BEFORE you made the choice to infiltrate the unit. Main point is they really boffed the infiltrate rule and it needs a FAQ.

Theorius wrote:


What do you consider danger close? since they can jsj on 3d6 they will never have to be that close. Even if you want rapid fire plasma all the time you could be as a unit within....10-12" of your targets (get it targets) and then jump back an average of 9-10" so your a good 20" back.

I personally dont want to get close enough for flamers....

Well by danger close i mean, you want to get these models into the best possible position for maximum damage, meaning, rapid fire range for plasma, and melta range for FB which is 9" but this is only the no scatter drop style of farbomb. (and for now the only one i will consider as its the only thing not debated atm (this may change once faqs start rolling out))

the flamers where kinda of joke but its not a bad thing to have in case of hoard style armies, but bad joke is bad.

otherwise the only style for far bomb would be to give them all missile pods and plasma, and use them as a long range poke for most of the game jumping back and forth with shadow sun wlt. but then you lose out on the versatility of killing multiple different targets (or specificly just dealing with land raiders)


(though thinking about it, can you imagine 72 twin linked burst cannon shots if you gave them nothing but Bcannons?)

how much does this all cost?

 Desubot wrote:

Theorius wrote:


What do you consider danger close? since they can jsj on 3d6 they will never have to be that close. Even if you want rapid fire plasma all the time you could be as a unit within....10-12" of your targets (get it targets) and then jump back an average of 9-10" so your a good 20" back.

I personally dont want to get close enough for flamers....

Well by danger close i mean, you want to get these models into the best possible position for maximum damage, meaning, rapid fire range for plasma, and melta range for FB which is 9" but this is only the no scatter drop style of farbomb. (and for now the only one i will consider as its the only thing not debated atm (this may change once faqs start rolling out))

the flamers where kinda of joke but its not a bad thing to have in case of hoard style armies, but bad joke is bad.

otherwise the only style for far bomb would be to give them all missile pods and plasma, and use them as a long range poke for most of the game jumping back and forth with shadow sun wlt. but then you lose out on the versatility of killing multiple different targets (or specificly just dealing with land raiders)


(though thinking about it, can you imagine 72 twin linked burst cannon shots if you gave them nothing but Bcannons?)

What you disucssed was part of my thought process, I thought about all plasma and missiles but then I cant pop vehicles, so I went with fusions. Basically the way it is set up above 3 of the suits are mass killers (with the drones) the other 3 plus shadowsun kill tanks.

72 burst cannons, I would have to buy more dice.....lots more...




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:
how much does this all cost?

ALOT OF POINTS BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

800ish.....I will get my book in a bit and give the real cost in a bit, I wasnt going with costs yet to see if others had input on better combos, or if it should take max drones...etc...

I think it's getting closer to 1100 with farsight, shadowsun and all the upgrades. Fill up on gun drones and possibly take shadowsun's shield drones - or not, because you have 4+ cover in the open .
Deepstrike, kill everything. If your opponent has a combat army, use Counter-Attack to get ~40 S5 attacks when charged.

The counters i see to this:
1) Precision shot anything. A smart opponent will focus precision shots against the suit bringing all the buffs, so it might be prudent to spread some of the lesser signature systems around a bit.
2) Interceptor plasma/ion weapons. AP3 pieplates are going to hurt the squad if they hit before you can Thrust move to spread out
3) Bubble wrap. If your enemy knows what is coming, he can spread out his infantry to form a wall around whatever needs protecting.
4) You've tied up >50% of your points in a single unit that can't be everywhere at once and is doing a LOT of overkill even with target locks (at least 1 plasma 1 fusion and all gun drones are firing at the same target). Your opponent can exploit this by splitting up and focussing on mission objectives.

Trasvi wrote:
I think it's getting closer to 1100 with farsight, shadowsun and all the upgrades. Fill up on gun drones and possibly take shadowsun's shield drones - or not, because you have 4+ cover in the open .
Deepstrike, kill everything. If your opponent has a combat army, use Counter-Attack to get ~40 S5 attacks when charged.

The counters i see to this:
1) Precision shot anything. A smart opponent will focus precision shots against the suit bringing all the buffs, so it might be prudent to spread some of the lesser signature systems around a bit.
2) Interceptor plasma/ion weapons. AP3 pieplates are going to hurt the squad if they hit before you can Thrust move to spread out
3) Bubble wrap. If your enemy knows what is coming, he can spread out his infantry to form a wall around whatever needs protecting.
4) You've tied up >50% of your points in a single unit that can't be everywhere at once and is doing a LOT of overkill even with target locks (at least 1 plasma 1 fusion and all gun drones are firing at the same target). Your opponent can exploit this by splitting up and focussing on mission objectives.

Its actually just over 900!
1- precision shots dont ignore the 2+ cover last i checked, everything has two wounds, but some of them items could be spread out
2 - ap3 large pie plates maybe small ones can only hit 1 suit typically due to size of bases and spreading out (PRIORITY TARGET NUMBER 1!!!
3- What will bubble wrap do? we ignore cover, we can shoot whatever we want.....
4) Thats just it, IT CAN be everyone and do anything (shoots 8 different targets) as to overkill i dont see 1 plasma, 1 fusion, and the gun drones as overkill.....thats a standard unit shooting in most cases... Split up? split up where? If my horde of 19 models is in the center of the board i can shoot to either side ignoring cover....I can move shoot move on 3d6 getting an average of 10" I AM EVERYWEHRE I WANT TO BE!!! Go for mission objectives I am going for tabling you. Lets assume even a 1500 point list I still have 600 points of dudes it isnt the whole army!

Theorius wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
I think it's getting closer to 1100 with farsight, shadowsun and all the upgrades. Fill up on gun drones and possibly take shadowsun's shield drones - or not, because you have 4+ cover in the open .
Deepstrike, kill everything. If your opponent has a combat army, use Counter-Attack to get ~40 S5 attacks when charged.

The counters i see to this:
1) Precision shot anything. A smart opponent will focus precision shots against the suit bringing all the buffs, so it might be prudent to spread some of the lesser signature systems around a bit.
2) Interceptor plasma/ion weapons. AP3 pieplates are going to hurt the squad if they hit before you can Thrust move to spread out
3) Bubble wrap. If your enemy knows what is coming, he can spread out his infantry to form a wall around whatever needs protecting.
4) You've tied up >50% of your points in a single unit that can't be everywhere at once and is doing a LOT of overkill even with target locks (at least 1 plasma 1 fusion and all gun drones are firing at the same target). Your opponent can exploit this by splitting up and focussing on mission objectives.

Its actually just over 900!
1- precision shots dont ignore the 2+ cover last i checked, everything has two wounds, but some of them items could be spread out
2 - ap3 large pie plates maybe small ones can only hit 1 suit typically due to size of bases and spreading out (PRIORITY TARGET NUMBER 1!!!
3- What will bubble wrap do? we ignore cover, we can shoot whatever we want.....
4) Thats just it, IT CAN be everyone and do anything (shoots 8 different targets) as to overkill i dont see 1 plasma, 1 fusion, and the gun drones as overkill.....thats a standard unit shooting in most cases... Split up? split up where? If my horde of 19 models is in the center of the board i can shoot to either side ignoring cover....I can move shoot move on 3d6 getting an average of 10" I AM EVERYWEHRE I WANT TO BE!!! Go for mission objectives I am going for tabling you. Lets assume even a 1500 point list I still have 600 points of dudes it isnt the whole army!

1) It's only a 4+ cover save isn't it? Or 2+ if you're in real cover, which you can't guarantee. But the point is that the suit with all the signature systems and shadowsun are the force multipliers in that unit, and precision shots *will* get directed, saves *will* be failed and he will go down drastically reducing the firepower of the unit. Its a pretty tough unit, but any Tau player should know that if you force your opponent to roll enough dice they will eventually get some 1's.

2) The other side of being a big unit is that an average scatter roll is still going to hit something, and even a small blast is going to get 7 hits if it doesn't scatter - this is on interceptor, so before you've had a chance to JSJ. And a savvy player would target the drones with blast weapons to get more hits on their smaller bases . After you JSJ it's a different story, but my riptide would have a bit of fun with this unit.

3) Bubble wrap would get you too far away from your main target to fire effectively at their juicier targets. 12" is only a few models deep at max cohesion, and the blob is large enough that getting everything to optimal firing positions may be tricky.

4) It can only shoot 8 targets *if* everything shoots at a different unit, which is pretty pointless. You can probably engage 3 targets effectively, with a ~18" firing distance for the majority of your firepower. That's hardly everything everywhere all the time.

IMO it would be more prudent to use Farsight's warlord trait - the worst thing would be for you to lose a thousand points to a deep strike mishap; this unit wants to have its farthest member 12" away from your opponent when you land, but it's coming in at 7" across packed up for deep strike, meaning your closest model will be only about 6 inches away. And that's only engaging one unit, and you want to be shooting at least 3 which means you're potentially going to have enemies on close by on 3 sides when you come in. Would you risk the game betting that you won't roll >6 for scatter?
Your other 500-600 points are going to buy you a few units of kroot or firewarriors, a pathfinder squad and maybe a broadside unit? That's not particularly threatening, and against the wrong army or with bad dice those 4 units could be tabled before Farsight comes on. It's a well recognised problem with 'death star' units that they suffer if there are too many targets: this unit does better than most, but still can't engage everything.


It is a very powerful unit. I'm going to try it out for a while because it's so brutal. There are very few counters to it, and they're not super effective - no 'hard' counters that I can think of except perhaps 3 interceptor riptides. It will destroy 2 squads of marines per turn on average dice without markerlights. It's deadly, and will probably decimate most opponents who aren't expecting it. But it's not invulnerable or all-powerful.

Trasvi wrote:

Theorius wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
I think it's getting closer to 1100 with farsight, shadowsun and all the upgrades. Fill up on gun drones and possibly take shadowsun's shield drones - or not, because you have 4+ cover in the open .
Deepstrike, kill everything. If your opponent has a combat army, use Counter-Attack to get ~40 S5 attacks when charged.

The counters i see to this:
1) Precision shot anything. A smart opponent will focus precision shots against the suit bringing all the buffs, so it might be prudent to spread some of the lesser signature systems around a bit.
2) Interceptor plasma/ion weapons. AP3 pieplates are going to hurt the squad if they hit before you can Thrust move to spread out
3) Bubble wrap. If your enemy knows what is coming, he can spread out his infantry to form a wall around whatever needs protecting.
4) You've tied up >50% of your points in a single unit that can't be everywhere at once and is doing a LOT of overkill even with target locks (at least 1 plasma 1 fusion and all gun drones are firing at the same target). Your opponent can exploit this by splitting up and focussing on mission objectives.

Its actually just over 900!
1- precision shots dont ignore the 2+ cover last i checked, everything has two wounds, but some of them items could be spread out
2 - ap3 large pie plates maybe small ones can only hit 1 suit typically due to size of bases and spreading out (PRIORITY TARGET NUMBER 1!!!
3- What will bubble wrap do? we ignore cover, we can shoot whatever we want.....
4) Thats just it, IT CAN be everyone and do anything (shoots 8 different targets) as to overkill i dont see 1 plasma, 1 fusion, and the gun drones as overkill.....thats a standard unit shooting in most cases... Split up? split up where? If my horde of 19 models is in the center of the board i can shoot to either side ignoring cover....I can move shoot move on 3d6 getting an average of 10" I AM EVERYWEHRE I WANT TO BE!!! Go for mission objectives I am going for tabling you. Lets assume even a 1500 point list I still have 600 points of dudes it isnt the whole army!

1) It's only a 4+ cover save isn't it? Or 2+ if you're in real cover, which you can't guarantee. But the point is that the suit with all the signature systems and shadowsun are the force multipliers in that unit, and precision shots *will* get directed, saves *will* be failed and he will go down drastically reducing the firepower of the unit. Its a pretty tough unit, but any Tau player should know that if you force your opponent to roll enough dice they will eventually get some 1's.

2) The other side of being a big unit is that an average scatter roll is still going to hit something, and even a small blast is going to get 7 hits if it doesn't scatter - this is on interceptor, so before you've had a chance to JSJ. And a savvy player would target the drones with blast weapons to get more hits on their smaller bases . After you JSJ it's a different story, but my riptide would have a bit of fun with this unit.

3) Bubble wrap would get you too far away from your main target to fire effectively at their juicier targets. 12" is only a few models deep at max cohesion, and the blob is large enough that getting everything to optimal firing positions may be tricky.

4) It can only shoot 8 targets *if* everything shoots at a different unit, which is pretty pointless. You can probably engage 3 targets effectively, with a ~18" firing distance for the majority of your firepower. That's hardly everything everywhere all the time.

IMO it would be more prudent to use Farsight's warlord trait - the worst thing would be for you to lose a thousand points to a deep strike mishap; this unit wants to have its farthest member 12" away from your opponent when you land, but it's coming in at 7" across packed up for deep strike, meaning your closest model will be only about 6 inches away. And that's only engaging one unit, and you want to be shooting at least 3 which means you're potentially going to have enemies on close by on 3 sides when you come in. Would you risk the game betting that you won't roll >6 for scatter?
Your other 500-600 points are going to buy you a few units of kroot or firewarriors, a pathfinder squad and maybe a broadside unit? That's not particularly threatening, and against the wrong army or with bad dice those 4 units could be tabled before Farsight comes on. It's a well recognised problem with 'death star' units that they suffer if there are too many targets: this unit does better than most, but still can't engage everything.


It is a very powerful unit. I'm going to try it out for a while because it's so brutal. There are very few counters to it, and they're not super effective - no 'hard' counters that I can think of except perhaps 3 interceptor riptides. It will destroy 2 squads of marines per turn on average dice without markerlights. It's deadly, and will probably decimate most opponents who aren't expecting it. But it's not invulnerable or all-powerful.

You dont need pathfinders, the blob needs no help to hit!

I agree it has weaknesses assault, morale, psychics - but it also has the ability to keep all this issues at a distance, it doesnt need to take chances or gamble.

1) 4+ in open yeah good point, cant say its 2+ all the time . The bodyguars provide 100% look out sir
2) I dont deep strike....like ever but its an option for others, and honestly me as well, i may find it worth it some day.....my group also agree that IC's can infilitrate others which is still debatable by the people at large....
3) I still dont agree, still hae 20" on plasma, and 36" missile pods, plus the goal is laregely to kil everyone so just peel the bubble wrap to get to the cndy center sooner or later. No worres here.
4) 8 is obviosly the max, 1 is the minimum.....optimal depends on the forces you face, but i agree 2-3 is likely to be the target. How mant people do i need to shoot? how many units most armies have? under 10? over 10? still going to bring the pain somewhere every turn.

Ive only played it once against an opponent that has not played tau in awhile let alone this death star and he conceded after 2 rounds of shooting (was dark angels) I felt bad, all his cover saves were stripped, the shroud was useless, his ravenwing bikes he said he has never seen die that massively in one turn wiping 2 units in a turn never got to shoot the termies as they did not show up turn 2 but it would not have mattered. I had killed most everything he had.

Oh by the way the bubble wrap works both ways, I keep the blod surrounded by kroot so I had my 2+ save if needed and when he focus fired my kroot they would GTG.

Here was his list from memory

sammael
3 ravenwing command with dakka banner
termies regular (never saw em though)

5 bikes atk bike
5 bikes atk bike
night shroud
some land speeders cant remember how many but more than 2 i was sure
2x tac units (it might have been one combat squaded
devastators i think?


I had

The blob

4x 10 kroot - they protect the blob as best they can and hold/contest objectives if needed, but I plan to vapoo everyone

2 riptides with interceptor (i didnt even get to use the interceptor on the teq, sad face) might switch one for longstrike though....dunno....


After playing my one game at 1500 I think this star is super deadly at this points level where their are less things people may take that can kill it. It may have more trouble at 1850-2000 where people have more big guns and cool toys.....

Deathwing comment - My opponent by the way is tooling a new list he thinks can take it. He is going to try a dual crusander land raider with the dakaa banner and power field. His bikes then can ride near the raiders so they get the banner and the field bubble (or so he tells me)

Can I just say:

Farsight and shadowsun in the same squad is Heresy

Also I think you should grab a couple shield drones for this squad. It wouldn't hurt to be able to block things such as Baleflamers.

 DakkaHammer wrote:
Can I just say:

Farsight and shadowsun in the same squad is Heresy

Also I think you should grab a couple shield drones for this squad. It wouldn't hurt to be able to block things such as Baleflamers.

Im a big fluff guy and thematically i like the potential story of how they joined up!

Shadowsun went hunting farsight and the clashed then farsight told her why he left, maybe puretide told him a secret about the true nature of the ethereals and he convinces her to join him to over throw the space pope!!!

I really, really like the idea of running a Farsight/Shadowsun bomb and plan to toy with it some. I figured I'd pick your brain regarding optimization of the suits' loadouts, though. I'm basically planning on using the unit you described above but with every suit armed with fusion/plasma or 2 fusions, if my opponent agrees to that (or it doesn't get FAQ'd). In larger games, I might even add a Librarian for Gate of Inifinity madness and some much-needed psychic defense. Now THAT'S an expensive unit.

One thing your bomb is going to fear is fast assault units, particularly those with high I that make HnR difficult to pull off. Since it's pretty unlikely that having your deathstar shoot at 8 different units is going to be a useful attribute, I'm thinking I may switch out a few target locks for flamers. Most of those fast choppy units are fairly fragile, so an extra 2-4D3 hits on them before they even get to touch you might be really helpful. Overwatch from this unit is already going to be bloody insane, but if you're not making good use of the target locks, why not? It'd also be nice to have the ability to fry 8 guardsmen or Boyz per suit at once, if you really had to clear some room, for whatever reason.

On a similar note, I've thought about slapping on a few counterfire defense systems. I don't know that doing so would help as much as using flamers, but it looks like switching in 4 of them nets you an extra 0.8 TH/SS termie kills, if my math isn't failing me.

I'm really looking forward to dropping a thousand points of Tau right in my friend's face and seeing what happens. This could get interesting.

MilkmanAl wrote:
I really, really like the idea of running a Farsight/Shadowsun bomb and plan to toy with it some. I figured I'd pick your brain regarding optimization of the suits' loadouts, though. I'm basically planning on using the unit you described above but with every suit armed with fusion/plasma or 2 fusions, if my opponent agrees to that (or it doesn't get FAQ'd). In larger games, I might even add a Librarian for Gate of Inifinity madness and some much-needed psychic defense. Now THAT'S an expensive unit.

One thing your bomb is going to fear is fast assault units, particularly those with high I that make HnR difficult to pull off. Since it's pretty unlikely that having your deathstar shoot at 8 different units is going to be a useful attribute, I'm thinking I may switch out a few target locks for flamers. Most of those fast choppy units are fairly fragile, so an extra 2-4D3 hits on them before they even get to touch you might be really helpful. Overwatch from this unit is already going to be bloody insane, but if you're not making good use of the target locks, why not? It'd also be nice to have the ability to fry 8 guardsmen or Boyz per suit at once, if you really had to clear some room, for whatever reason.

On a similar note, I've thought about slapping on a few counterfire defense systems. I don't know that doing so would help as much as using flamers, but it looks like switching in 4 of them nets you an extra 0.8 TH/SS termie kills, if my math isn't failing me.

I'm really looking forward to dropping a thousand points of Tau right in my friend's face and seeing what happens. This could get interesting.

I am trying to think of a fast enough unit that can catch them without dying to bad before they got there (or 2-3 of em) wyches in vehciesl?

The unit is highly accurate can deal with all armors/cover etc, unless someone has like...2+ invul saves which I hear some demon units can do? but you should be able to kite them long enough for torrents of fire to win.

Demons and DE were what sprang to mind, and I'll probably be playing against Demons pretty often. If you get hit by more than 1 unit of...well, anything, you're probably going to lose just about all of the drone bubble wrap and might break. If you can keep multiple units from assaulting you in the same phase, things should be okay, I suppose, but that's tough to do against armies that can fly to you in a hurry or DS fast units all around you. I don't that strategy as a HUGE weakness, but it's something to think about if the rest of the opposing army has a lot of shooting that crisis suits don't like.

MilkmanAl wrote:

One thing your bomb is going to fear is fast assault units, particularly those with high I that make HnR difficult to pull off.

Hit and run is only based on the highest initiative in your unit, nothing about the other unit. And this unit can actually hold its own in combat - using the Neurochip t give counter-attack you're on 38 S5 and 28 S3 attacks.

Since it's pretty unlikely that having your deathstar shoot at 8 different units is going to be a useful attribute, I'm thinking I may switch out a few target locks for flamers. Most of those fast choppy units are fairly fragile, so an extra 2-4D3 hits on them before they even get to touch you might be really helpful. Overwatch from this unit is already going to be bloody insane, but if you're not making good use of the target locks, why not? It'd also be nice to have the ability to fry 8 guardsmen or Boyz per suit at once, if you really had to clear some room, for whatever reason.

The problem is that a large amount of shots (28 from gun drones) are possbly better spent shooting a different target than the plasma/fusion combo you'll have on the crisis suits. Target Lock on everything means you don't waste fusion shots on guardsmen or pulse shots on landraiders. Regarding flamers, I think one of this unit's biggest problems will be positioning. 9 battlesuits and 14 gun drones is a large unit and it's going to take a fair bit of work to get them all into good firing spots (especially if they have plasma), so I think flamers would be even more problematic.
As for the extra hits on overwatch.... possibly useful, but overwatch this this unit is already killing 4;4 marines *on average* on the charge. Couple that with shooting the round before and your positioning on JSJ, I think it's unlikely for a unit to be able to assault you - you should be able to clear out a large enough buffer zone. Each flamer adds only 0.33 kills to that - is it really worth the tradeoff in shooting versatility, considering how likely we are to win the combat outright anyway?

I'm really looking forward to dropping a thousand points of Tau right in my friend's face and seeing what happens. This could get interesting.

Now that, we can definitely agree on

Hit and run is only based on the highest initiative in your unit

Oh, duh. I was confusing it with sweeping advances, for some reason. Never mind me!

The problem is that a large amount of shots (28 from gun drones) are possbly better spent shooting a different target than the plasma/fusion combo you'll have on the crisis suits. Target Lock on everything means you don't waste fusion shots on guardsmen or pulse shots on landraiders.

True. I was just thinking that if you weren't really wasting those low AP shots (like, say, when you're gunning down MEQs or TEQs) that mixing up that third piece of gear would be helpful. On second thought, given that you're pretty much using this unit to shoot at everything your opponent has all at once, that may not be wise.

Regarding flamers, I think one of this unit's biggest problems will be positioning.

Not really. I'd intended to use them purely as defensive weapons for exactly that reason unless I just had to flame the poop out of something. Maybe it'd be easier to just start with all target locks and go from there.

You're totally right about the unit being pretty respectable in combat, by the way. That's a whole lot of S5 attacks to eat, and Farsight is no slouch and slicing and dicing, despite his Tauness. That overwatch will soften up the stoutest of squads pretty well, too.

HnR is just an I test with I5 all you really want is to not roll a 6. Also if you just run a regular commander instead of shadow sun you can dump all your systems on a w4 2+ t5 suit with 100% LOS for the prescision shots and also boost your drones to bs 5 with 14 drones you generate a 27.8something hit rate. Also with the pureride chip all the usr's transfer to the unit it's in. Any ways with the drones and what ever mandatory shot will pretty much delete meq bubble wrap.


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I think the hits average to 7-8 meq wounds

You can give all of the signature upgrades to a single bodyguard for less points than a commander; its 50+pts cheaper, you just don't get LOS or BS5 drones

BS5 twinlinked is 97.2% hit rate, BS3 TL is 75% hit rate. You gain You gain 22% drone shooting - another 1.4 marines per turn, when you're already killing 20. Is that Is that 7% increase in damage worth giving up Shadowsun's permanent 4+ cover save, 3D6 JSJ (if you don't deepstrike) and infiltrate (if your group allows that)?

Unfortunately sargent Telion on an Icarus lascannon can ruin your bombs day. Really any precision shot will ruin your bombs day if you have all your systems on a frail suit. Having the vanilla commander will let you actually tank 2-3 hits before you even need to start LOS to your bodyguards.

Im glad to see more people are drinking from the farsight coolaid cup!

Wolfwood189 wrote:
Unfortunately sargent Telion on an Icarus lascannon can ruin your bombs day. Really any precision shot will ruin your bombs day if you have all your systems on a frail suit. Having the vanilla commander will let you actually tank 2-3 hits before you even need to start LOS to your bodyguards.

What special defensive skills does telion have to survive turn 1? OR FOLLOW UP what other targets in telions army make him not priority target number 1 (keeping in mind I can attack 8 priority targets if i need to)

Furthermore, only two if the items need to be on the same suit -- command and control, multispectrum sensors (but!!!! the rest are on their since you have no free slots anywhere else, so you do need to stack the support items on hm as well such as vector thrusters and drone controller.

the puretide chip can go on another unit though

Trasvi wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:

One thing your bomb is going to fear is fast assault units, particularly those with high I that make HnR difficult to pull off.

Hit and run is only based on the highest initiative in your unit, nothing about the other unit. And this unit can actually hold its own in combat - using the Neurochip t give counter-attack you're on 38 S5 and 28 S3 attacks.

Except Counter attack only effects the model with it, can't confer it to his unit. So a few less attacks there mate.


Infiltrating the unit isn't a debate btw, it just doesn't work RAW because you attach IC during deployment meaning she isn't a part of that bomb until it is deployed meaning either you deploy normal with the unit or you declare her infiltrating at which time she deploys later after the unit, or you reserve both units and she then can confer outflank by attaching in reserve. Its a good unit but its way too expensive IMO, I think it works best to just hard deploy the unit because 900+ points needs to be earning its points back every turn not waiting in reserve. other wise a DP army would clean it out turn 1.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Trasvi wrote:

MilkmanAl wrote:

One thing your bomb is going to fear is fast assault units, particularly those with high I that make HnR difficult to pull off.

Hit and run is only based on the highest initiative in your unit, nothing about the other unit. And this unit can actually hold its own in combat - using the Neurochip t give counter-attack you're on 38 S5 and 28 S3 attacks.

Except Counter attack only effects the model with it, can't confer it to his unit. So a few less attacks there mate.


Infiltrating the unit isn't a debate btw, it just doesn't work RAW because you attach IC during deployment meaning she isn't a part of that bomb until it is deployed meaning either you deploy normal with the unit or you declare her infiltrating at which time she deploys later after the unit, or you reserve both units and she then can confer outflank by attaching in reserve. Its a good unit but its way too expensive IMO, I think it works best to just hard deploy the unit because 900+ points needs to be earning its points back every turn not waiting in reserve. other wise a DP army would clean it out turn 1.

only one model needs counter attack and the entire unit gets it.


infltrate is debatable - HERE IT IS FROM RULES!!! - "An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined.

and infiltrate rules

Infiltrate p.38:
Units that contain at least one model with this special rule...
Having Infiltrate also confers the Outflank special rule to units of Infiltrators that are kept as Reserves.
An IC without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment.

I personnaly plan to have it on field always, no deep strike, no reserve. It either starts in deployment and jumps all over the place or it can infiltrate(i am waiting on a faq for this))) YOU WANT IT TO BE TARGETED, you want it to mess up his plans and you are right it needs to be effective every turn as its at least half you points it not more (depending on your battle size)


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I got access to a friends daemon codex today and found a disturbing gift in their....

Breath of chaos - template wound on 4+ no armor or cover saves.....ut oh.....

I then looked up how scarce or prevalent is can be and unfortunately it is rather prevalent.

Flamers of tzeetch - jump infantry and have it base

nurlge and tzeetch gods and heralds can have it

tzeetch princes can have it.


The final scary thing is that daemons all have invuln saves.....((I knew this one obviously but alot of them have better than 5+ invuln))

How many suits will be needed to drop a typical flamer unit? If i got within 18" for the drone fire? 20 shots - 15hiits, 9.9 wounds, 4 dead flamers (4 flamers is 140 pts most seem to be taken 4-5) farsight plasma and shadowsuns fusion gun would bring in another kill on average. So to make sure you wipe a unit of 5 I would likely assign the airburst suit to them as well for another 5 shots to guarantee killing 5 of them.

Ok maybe i am not that worried.

thoughts?


TAKEN IN ARMIES COMMENT - I found 10 tzeentch mono armies and not many of them took flamers or put breath of chaos on other models so maybe it wont be that common to face?

Keep reading, Counter attack:

If a unit contains at least one model with this special rule, and that unit is charged, it must immediately take a leadership test. If the test is successful every model with counter attack special rule in the unit gets +1 attack until end of phase.

As for infiltrating, you need to also brush up on independent characters. This is the section limiting infiltration. Notice Infiltration reads that at least one model in the unit needs it, that refers to the unit not necessarily joined IC's. This is because for example the striking scorpion exarch can get infiltrate as a purchased skill, and it lets the unit infiltrate because he is a part of it. Same goes for characters that have infiltrate and can purchase a bodyguard. Yet if you read the IC rules, they can only join a unit during deployment, not before, which makes it impossible to join a normally deployed unit unless also deploying normally as well rendering infiltration useless. They can however be nominated as attached in reserve, so they can use the outflank ability of an IC but they cannot be infiltrated with the IC like shadowsun due to the restriction regarding when she can be attached to the unit.

Also, Only one unit can have a warlord trait.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Also, Only one unit can have a warlord trait.

only one unit has one, but you get to pick between the two. Remember in a tourney you cant change so i the true nature of TAC i always use shadowsuns personally.

Theorius wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Also, Only one unit can have a warlord trait.

only one unit has one, but you get to pick between the two. Remember in a tourney you cant change so i the true nature of TAC i always use shadowsuns personally.

Have you reread the USR? I am not being argumentative but thorough, I would like to hear you're rebuttal concerning what I have posted.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Keep reading, Counter attack:

If a unit contains at least one model with this special rule, and that unit is charged, it must immediately take a leadership test. If the test is successful every model with counter attack special rule in the unit gets +1 attack until end of phase.

As for infiltrating, you need to also brush up on independent characters. This is the section limiting infiltration. Notice Infiltration reads that at least one model in the unit needs it, that refers to the unit not necessarily joined IC's. This is because for example the striking scorpion exarch can get infiltrate as a purchased skill, and it lets the unit infiltrate because he is a part of it. Same goes for characters that have infiltrate and can purchase a bodyguard. Yet if you read the IC rules, they can only join a unit during deployment, not before, which makes it impossible to join a normally deployed unit unless also deploying normally as well rendering infiltration useless. They can however be nominated as attached in reserve, so they can use the outflank ability of an IC but they cannot be infiltrated with the IC like shadowsun due to the restriction regarding when she can be attached to the unit.

Yeh i just found my rule book and came back to post!

You are obviously right!!! I just figured the chip was transfering powers that helped the whole unit and when i read the first line I was like, yep! but you are correct, going to edit the top post!