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Personally, when I see the Terminator entry in C: SM, it seems that you'd be a bit foolish to pick them over Assault Termies. Sure they have good firepower like Assault Cannons and Cyclones, but apart from that, you're spending 200+ points just for 5 Stormbolters. I know you get the benefits of Terminator Armour but apart from the mediocre firepower you'd be better off taking Assault Termies in almost all circumstances.
So with that, here's what I propose for the new Tactical Terminator entry.

Tactical Terminators - 185pts
Unit: 4 Terminators, 1 Sergeant (Character
WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv2+

Wargear: Storm Bolter and Power Weapon. Terminator Armour

Options
May add 5 Terminators for 35 Points each

Any Terminator may swap his Power Weapon for one of the following:
- Power Fist: 5pts
- Chain Fist: 15pts

In addition, any model may swap his Storm Bolter for one of the following
- Combi Plasma/Melta/Flamer: 10pts
- Twin Linked Boltgun with Special Issue Ammunition for 10pts

For every 5 models in the unit, one model may choose one of the following options:
- Swap his Storm Bolter for a Heavy Flamer for 5pts or an Assault Cannon for 25pts
- Take a Cyclone Missile Launcher for 25pts

Special Rules
And They Shall Know No Fear
Combat Squads
Chapter Tactics

Counts as an Elites choice. Alternatively, a single squad may be taken as a retinue for a Chapter Master in Terminator Armour or Captain Lysander. This does not take up an FOC slot but otherwise counts as an HQ choice.

As you can see I've tried to add a bit of variation to the weapon choices a bit. They're cheaper I admit, but they lose their Power Fist, which they can just upgrade bringing them back to their original cost. They're small changes, but I feel they'd make this unit a much more viable choice over Assault Termies.

What are your thoughts on these changes?

seems pretty sweet although id probably put combi-weapons as +5 for combiflamer and +10 for combiplasma or combimelta, the reason being the combiflamer requires them to get close while only using a boltgun - ie a nerf to long range but decent short range, whereas a plasma is fireable from a longer distance and very deadly on a model that is much harder to kill than a sternguard, and a unit of such is rather a scary prospect. The melta being +10 is because a deepstriking termi squad with a few meltas could very easily strike, waste a tank, and then proceed to move charge and waste another tank or unit the turn after, again in a far more effective and hard to deal way than sternguard

Just my two cents love the idea of special issue ammo though, imo deathwing should have this too

now I think about it though, where does this leave sternguard?

Bobug wrote:
seems pretty sweet although id probably put combi-weapons as +5 for combiflamer and +10 for combiplasma or combimelta, the reason being the combiflamer requires them to get close while only using a boltgun - ie a nerf to long range but decent short range, whereas a plasma is fireable from a longer distance and very deadly on a model that is much harder to kill than a sternguard, and a unit of such is rather a scary prospect. The melta being +10 is because a deepstriking termi squad with a few meltas could very easily strike, waste a tank, and then proceed to move charge and waste another tank or unit the turn after, again in a far more effective and hard to deal way than sternguard

Just my two cents love the idea of special issue ammo though, imo deathwing should have this too

now I think about it though, where does this leave sternguard?

10 ppm cheaper and still in their suicide melta/flamer role. More effectively as they can not die when DSing

I like your ideas but I think you are still gimping them too much because you are used to terms being awful and you are trying to make them average. They should be elite units. Limited in deployment. Special issue ammo should go stock into their storm bolters - combi weapons at +5 points retaining special issue ammo and 2 heavy weapons options per 5. Give them +1 toughness and add a wound or add feel no pain. Increase their point cots to 48 points. Any model can trade storm bolter with special issue ammo for thunder hammer storm shield at no additional cost. I'd consider taking that squad - for it's versatility but could really only take them in large games as their points would be enormous.

I agree with Xenomancers. Terminators are suposed to be the cream of the crop, and should be slightly cheasy, prehaps with a number cap, if anything. I think the first change we should make is giving them T5. If any Terminator can be instagibbed by Joe Cultist with a Lascannon, I don't think there would be many of them left. This change decreses their odds of being FRFSRF'd to death, and makes them able to have a chance of surviving more of the big stuff, which is exactly what I think you need on a 200+ point unit of five models.

The idea of giving them access to Special Ammunition is interesting, but I'm not sure where that would leave Sternguard Marines. Maybe if you could take Specail Ammunition at a flat rate for the whole squad, prehaps fifty points, that would be good. Make the upgrade called 'Sternguard Terminators', and make it clear that these are sternies in TDA, and it would be fairly fluff friendly. This would have the side effect of encourging people to take larger Terminator Squads, which I would like to see.

The next thing I'd do is say that you can take 1 special Weapon for each 3 terminators in the squad, and raise the cap on Squad Size to 12. Then you can stick them in a Spartan Assult Tank or something. I'd also decrease the price of their Heavy Weapons to encourage people to take more firepower for them. These guys are suposed to be at least somewhat shooty, after all. We're trying to make them competitive with Assault Terminators, and to to that, they need to be able to shoot well.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I like your ideas but I think you are still gimping them too much because you are used to terms being awful and you are trying to make them average. They should be elite units. Limited in deployment. Special issue ammo should go stock into their storm bolters - combi weapons at +5 points retaining special issue ammo and 2 heavy weapons options per 5. Give them +1 toughness and add a wound or add feel no pain. Increase their point cots to 48 points. Any model can trade storm bolter with special issue ammo for thunder hammer storm shield at no additional cost. I'd consider taking that squad - for it's versatility but could really only take them in large games as their points would be enormous.

And GK Paladins are so effective...

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I like your ideas but I think you are still gimping them too much because you are used to terms being awful and you are trying to make them average. They should be elite units. Limited in deployment. Special issue ammo should go stock into their storm bolters - combi weapons at +5 points retaining special issue ammo and 2 heavy weapons options per 5. Give them +1 toughness and add a wound or add feel no pain. Increase their point cots to 48 points. Any model can trade storm bolter with special issue ammo for thunder hammer storm shield at no additional cost. I'd consider taking that squad - for it's versatility but could really only take them in large games as their points would be enormous.

And GK Paladins are so effective...

Paladins are like 54 points or something outrageous and have stormbolters (they can take 2 psycannons though). Huge cost to add FNP and still only T4. I honestly cant think of a nicer target to shoot a lascannon at or hit with a power fist or a dread-knight for that matter...they even took away their unique ranged spell though it was already quite a joke. I'm suggesting you take a paladin, give it T5 FNP, Special issue ammo, combi weapon options and drop it about 6 ppm and you've got what a terminator should be. Maybe I could be off on the points but Im basically going off a thunder cavalry to figure where they should be at.

Didn't think I'd see this thread resurrected.

Well because this thread is back up and running. OP basically made the new SW terminators in his post. Small point adjustments, but they are pretty much spot on.

Good job!

Why oh why do storm bolters and combi bolters exist? Twin Link is a bunch of feth! More shots is just plain better. So much of this twin linked non sense! In real life, a double barrel shotgun shoots 2 slugs and delivers 2x the mass at the same velocity so it nearly doubles the force of impact. Does it really make it better at hitting the target? The distance between the barrel is marginal but the possibility for it to stray from the muzzle is much greater. Rifling and guns with longer barrels keeps the bullet on track better than 2 short barrels. The only time when 2 barrels hits more is when you use buck shots and that is a wider spread with a sawed off shorter barrel. Bolters use mini rocket propelled grenades so does mean that the length of the barrel is negligible? I do not think so because of the numerous depictions of a bolter ammo looking exactly like an oversized bullet with deployed stabilizer fins in mid flight.

Why cant I have a terminator for 38 pts and give him 4 bolters? Like having 2 twin linked bolters in each hand but not twin linked? That would make up for their lack of fire power. Then this dakka terminator can stand and shoot 4 shots at 24" and 8 shots in rapid fire range of 12". Then these terminators would be worth taking. Also the bolter is a shoddy weapon that has lost so much of its usefulness since 2nd edition.

Twin-linked used to be one roll to hit for two hits!

Still sounds good with bs4.

They had targeters back then for +1 to hit, too. But fast moving Tyranids gave you -2 to hit. It was a nightmare, really.

32-33ppm, start with a power sword, 4+ Inv standard, two upgrade guns per five models. 90% of the problems gone.

Before people start grumbling about not being able to mix guns and melee upgrades I don't want to have to think up another unique toy to hand the Deathwing to compensate for other people getting that unique toy of theirs.

Dakka Termi-38pts

WS1 BS4 S1 T4 W1 I1 A1 Ld9 Sv2+

Comes with free Hurricane Bolter strap on their backs like cyclone missile launchers but on every terminator!
Comes with special rule to allow firing both hurricane bolters and storm bolters.
Comes with no power sword or power fist, or any close combat weapons!
Just another storm bolter in the other hand!

Problem solved!

 Filch wrote:
Dakka Termi-38pts

WS1 BS4 S1 T4 W1 I1 A1 Ld9 Sv2+

Comes with free Hurricane Bolter strap on their backs like cyclone missile launchers but on every terminator!
Comes with special rule to allow firing both hurricane bolters and storm bolters.
Comes with no power sword or power fist, or any close combat weapons!
Just another storm bolter in the other hand!

Problem solved!

Add some knee mounted Storm Bolters and maybe the odd elbow Bolter and then throw them into the Ork codex, They will fit right in!

Can also add a bolter mounted bolter...oh wait...

Terminators should be one of the following:
Strength and toughness 5 or 6
Ability to re-roll failed armour and invulnerable saves
Better Invulnerable Save (4+)

Given how TDA turns the user into a walking tank, they should be one or two of these.

Personally, I don't have a problem with Terminators as they are. But, in fairness, I'm running Wolf Guard Terminators, which are awesome, since we get to take heavy weapons and awesome melee weapons in the same unit. And for me, the main thing I use termis for are those times when it would be as expensive, or more expensive, to not take termis. One, wolf claws. A PA Wolf Guard, cost 18 points, plus 30 points for two wolf claws. A WGT costs 33 points, but can take two wolf claws for 15 points. So, exact same cost, but with a 2+ AS and 5+ IS. Two, Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield. Again, 18 points for WG, plus 15 for S-shield, and 30 for T-hammer, for a total of 63 points, or WGT for 33 points and TH/SS for 15 points, for a total of 48 points. Easy choice. Finally, chainfists. Yeah, they're expensive, but they're awesome, and PA Wolf Guard can't take them. Even with a few extra points for an assault cannon, heavy flamer, or CML, it would be stupid for me to not take termis. Not to mention, with a Company of the Great Wolf Detachment, my WGT are all WS 5.

That being said, though, I'm not that familiar with other SM codexes, so I don't know if other squads get those "why wouldn't you take them" termi arrangements. It could be that I'm missing the issue just because WGT are what they are.

Of course, if they wanted to make termis S5 T5, I ain't gonna complain.

natpri771 wrote:

Given how TDA turns the user into a walking tank, they should be one or two of these.

AV 11-11-10 2HP 5++ walker squadron. I've read someone here on dakka doing this. It was hilarious.

You know...rhinos with av 11-11-10 cost just as much as a terminator. A walker with front av 12 cost nearly 100pts.

Giving the termi av 10 or more would make them immune to blasted lasguns. at av11, they cant be glanced by bolters. I wish I could play by these rules.

They've played out to be worse than they are now
Lack of 2+ armor is huge for durability. But a hell lot of fun with exploding and wrecked termies everywhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
i guess it was 1 HP though.

Actually, that reminds me of my one beef with Termis. I'm fine with S4 T4. What I'd really love to see is an extra wound on them. I mean, they've survived long enough to earn the right to wear sacred Terminator armor, but one shot amd they're down for the count? C'mon.

I don't know what exactly you're looking for but I'm looking at the chances of killing a Terminator and I've then made some changes in my D10 system. How much tougher do you actually want them? Here's my changes:

Space Marine killing a Space Marine Terminator:

1 shot from a Boltgun
7. edition - 5,56 %
D10 edition - 1,72 %

1 shot from a Lascannon
7. edition - 37,04 %
D10 edition - 30,87 %

1 shot from a Missile launcher firing a Krak missile
7. edition - 9,26 %
D10 edition - 9,26 %

Eldar Guardian killing a Space MarineTerminator:

1 shot from a Shuriken pistol or Catapult
7. edition - 11,11 %
D10 edition - 4,65 %

Fire Dragon killing a Space Marine Terminator:

1 shot from a Fusion gun - Further than half range
7. edition - 37,04 %
D10 edition - 15,44 %

1 shot from a Fusion gun - Within half range
7. edition - 37,04 %
D10 edition - 44,1 %

Guardsman killing a Space Marine Terminator:

1 shot from a Lasgun
7. edition - 2,78 %
D10 edition - 0,98 %

Well they do need a boost in durability but given there first company status, sternguard ammo does not seem a overpowered standard upgrade.

They need a help at times so free special issue ammo sounds one way to help them become more viable

 jhe90 wrote:
Well they do need a boost in durability but given there first company status, sternguard ammo does not seem a overpowered standard upgrade.

They need a help at times so free special issue ammo sounds one way to help them become more viable

Sternguard ammo stormbolters. That's an interesting idea! But won't it invalidate sternguards? And we'll have topics like: "Redesigning Sternguards".

Or make terminator stormbolters S5 or S6 to keep up with Xeno hotness. I'd be nice to have something good other than grav.

You know what just give them another wound, done.

 Quickjager wrote:
You know what just give them another wound, done.

Too many weapons that already smoke them just double them out. I guess it would help against being shredded trivially by Eldar though.