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luke1705 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I don't think in any situation is it a good idea to focus Riptides. They are the tankiest models in the game from a point to durability ratio.

Unless you are running harridans and there are no flyers in the sky. Wounds on 2+ and ignores the Wraithknight's Armour. Has a 3+ and FNP of it's own. Literally, we just bring our own pacific rim. Two of them would be 24 shots (to 4 different targets). You want to see wraithknights hide in cover all game?

Wraith Knights have a reason to fear a Brarbed Hierodule or Harridan, but Riptides still get their 2+ save. All they fear is assault, and that is what knights are good for.

tag8833 wrote:

luke1705 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I don't think in any situation is it a good idea to focus Riptides. They are the tankiest models in the game from a point to durability ratio.

Unless you are running harridans and there are no flyers in the sky. Wounds on 2+ and ignores the Wraithknight's Armour. Has a 3+ and FNP of it's own. Literally, we just bring our own pacific rim. Two of them would be 24 shots (to 4 different targets). You want to see wraithknights hide in cover all game?

Wraith Knights have a reason to fear a Brarbed Hierodule or Harridan, but Riptides still get their 2+ save. All they fear is assault, and that is what knights are good for.

True. The tactically-superior choice would probably be to bring the Hierodule for cheaper so that you could do more to menace the rest of the army. It is, for most intents and purposes, plenty durable in its own right.

luke1705 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I don't think in any situation is it a good idea to focus Riptides. They are the tankiest models in the game from a point to durability ratio.

Unless you are running harridans and there are no flyers in the sky. Wounds on 2+ and ignores the Wraithknight's Armour. Has a 3+ and FNP of it's own. Literally, we just bring our own pacific rim. Two of them would be 24 shots (to 4 different targets). You want to see wraithknights hide in cover all game?

That's all very nice, but please point me to the part where anyone said anything about Wraithknights. This is about fighting an army with Riptides and Knights and Crisis Suits in it. To which I was saying, that Riptides are the last target you should be focusing on, they will make back their points in shots that could have been directed elsewhere

Bear in mind my perspective is without the Harridan as those aren't considered legal in my parts yet and even if it was I'm not sure I'd trade it for 4 other FMC's.

Here's the thing from my perspective. Knights can't hurt an FMC list. A list based around 3 Flyrants, 3-4 Crones, and 2-3 Harpies (Either 3/3 or 4/2) is pretty immune to knights. That being said in passing you can probably pull one down simply through St. 8 Vector strikes, Onslaughting into different arcs not covered by the shield, haywire missiles, and devourers.

Focussing on the Knights to the exclusion of everything else is a losing proposition as well. Focussing on Riptides to the exclusion of everything else is a losing proposition.

The odds of stripping a HP off a Knight with it's 4+ shield in the right arc is .43 per Hive Tyrant. However a Tyrant does .88 wounds to a Riptide.

A Riptide has the firepower to hurt an FMC. A Knight doesn't.

A Riptide has 5 wounds. A Knight has "6".

A Riptide can hurt itself trying to be better. A Knight can't.

A Riptide can manuever indepently of other Riptides. Knight's can't if they want to keep that re-roll shield.

I'm not seeing a good reason with a tyrant, when presented the choice between a Knight and Riptide that are fully functional, to go for the Knight unless it's shields are in a different arc. That's assuming Troops aren't anywhere to be seen. In a list that has 6 models (troops hide as long as possible), all pretty equally tough, you make the decision to go after what you can hurt the fastest and can hurt you the most. Hence, focus on the Riptides and troops unless opportunity or the scenario pushes you into the Knights.

Agreed, Riptide focus offers greater ability for damage and enemy firepower reduction.

And if they're 3++ing then you're even more likely to survive too.

 ductvader wrote:
Agreed, Riptide focus offers greater ability for damage and enemy firepower reduction.

And if they're 3++ing then you're even more likely to survive too.

They won't take the 3++, they get a 2+ against everything but vector strikes. They will Nova charge for the HBC to pluck a flyrant out of the sky.

Of course they will, and having wounds on them will make them question taking that risk.

But without VT's a nova charged Riptide is only going to inflict .32 wounds with the cannon and another .13 from it's non VT smart missiles. In other words a Tyrant will die in around 6 turns (assuming I fall out of the sky once and without FnP). A Tryand kills a Riptide in 5-6 turns assuming the Riptide never hurts itself.

None of this takes into account the increased ability of the Tryant via psychic powers (Warp Blast, Psychic Shriek, Catalyst).

In others words in a list with 3 Knights and 3 Riptides the focus from a tyranid tyrant should be on tearing down the Riptides if the troops aren't available because that is the most bang for your buck as well as the largest reduction in enemy capacity when you kill one.

 Hulksmash wrote:
But without VT's a nova charged Riptide is only going to inflict .32 wounds with the cannon and another .13 from it's non VT smart missiles. In other words a Tyrant will die in around 6 turns (assuming I fall out of the sky once and without FnP). A Tryand kills a Riptide in 5-6 turns assuming the Riptide never hurts itself.

This doesn't seem even close to right, but it is pretty close. HBC does 0.17 Rends and 0.28 unsaved wounds for a total of 0.44 Wounds to a tyrant per turn. SMS does 0.14. A total of 0.58 Wounds.

I realized that I was thinking of HBC as Twin Linked because of Buffmander, and that isn't a thing any more. I'm also used to HBC riptides getting marker light support and there is no more room in an 1850 list for marker lights if you are trying to run 3 Riptides and 3 Knights (that is why none of the riptides have VT as well).

Riptides also have a higher survivability in my memory because of Stimulant Injector and Eath Caste Pilot Array. I guess Flyrant vs HBC Riptide, flyrant is doing 0..89 wounds to a riptide per turn. So assuming the Flyrant doesn't fail a grounding test, it will kill a HBC riptide with no upgrades.

It will generally take a flyrant 5.6 rounds of shooting to kill a Riptide. However it can kill an imperial knight in 3.4 rounds if it isn't hitting the shield. If it is, it takes 6.8. If the Shield get rerolls, because GW sucks, then it will take 13.6 turns. So a Imperial Knight is squishier. Also more of a threat to scoring units which Flyrants generally are not.

I think we generally agree that the crisis suites should die first, but after that, I'm not sure that the riptides are the way to go.

Also we are screwed if someone only takes 2 Riptides so that they can give VT to them, and adds a skyray.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Of course they will, and having wounds on them will make them question taking that risk.

But without VT's a nova charged Riptide is only going to inflict .32 wounds with the cannon and another .13 from it's non VT smart missiles. In other words a Tyrant will die in around 6 turns (assuming I fall out of the sky once and without FnP). A Tryand kills a Riptide in 5-6 turns assuming the Riptide never hurts itself.

None of this takes into account the increased ability of the Tryant via psychic powers (Warp Blast, Psychic Shriek, Catalyst).

In others words in a list with 3 Knights and 3 Riptides the focus from a tyranid tyrant should be on tearing down the Riptides if the troops aren't available because that is the most bang for your buck as well as the largest reduction in enemy capacity when you kill one.

Wait wait what? I was with you all the way till the last sentence, it seems we interpret the information at hand differently... Riptides being so cheap, such a small pricetag, low in damage output vs our main offensive units according to your maths, and so so durable for the price, seems like these are the last things you want to focus... yes you can trade positively if you spend all game shooting at them with a Flyrant, however you should focus more immediate threats that not only hit harder, but die easier. Crisis Suits --> Knights --> Commander --> Riptides. Seriously. Riptides last. Just for example as Tag said, assuming that maths is correct, and optimal positioning, you can just about kill all 3 Knights in the amount of time it takes to kill just one and a half Riptides. Other than Psychic Shriek rolls, I don't think you should ever throw your damage output away sinking it into Riptides.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Of course they will, and having wounds on them will make them question taking that risk.

But without VT's a nova charged Riptide is only going to inflict .32 wounds with the cannon and another .13 from it's non VT smart missiles. In other words a Tyrant will die in around 6 turns (assuming I fall out of the sky once and without FnP). A Tryand kills a Riptide in 5-6 turns assuming the Riptide never hurts itself.

None of this takes into account the increased ability of the Tryant via psychic powers (Warp Blast, Psychic Shriek, Catalyst).

In others words in a list with 3 Knights and 3 Riptides the focus from a tyranid tyrant should be on tearing down the Riptides if the troops aren't available because that is the most bang for your buck as well as the largest reduction in enemy capacity when you kill one.

Wait wait what? I was with you all the way till the last sentence, it seems we interpret the information at hand differently... Riptides being so cheap, such a small pricetag, low in damage output vs our main offensive units according to your maths, and so so durable for the price, seems like these are the last things you want to focus... yes you can trade positively if you spend all game shooting at them with a Flyrant, however you should focus more immediate threats that not only hit harder, but die easier. Crisis Suits --> Knights --> Commander --> Riptides. Seriously. Riptides last. Just for example as Tag said, assuming that maths is correct, and optimal positioning, you can just about kill all 3 Knights in the amount of time it takes to kill just one and a half Riptides. Other than Psychic Shriek rolls, I don't think you should ever throw your damage output away sinking it into Riptides.

Let me break this down for you. I'm pretty sure I've addressed it multiple times but we'll try one more time.

Troops & Etheral/Commander are going to be hidden/not on the table. We're all in agreement that when they show up we kill them. Yes? Good.

Now, that leaves Knights and Riptides. Riptides have higher damage output towards you than Knights. They are more likely to knock you out of the sky for the Knights (low probability but massively higher than 3 heavy stubbers). They are easier to kill than a shielded side of a Knight. They have less "wounds" than a Knight. Riptides have a roll that can cause wounds to themselves that increases their firepower and putting wounds on them makes this a choice.

So, to recap. There may be an opportunity to damage a Knight. If there is you take it. But if you have a choice between a shielded knight (highly likely) or a Riptide you take the Riptide. Killing a Riptide is exponentially better for your army than a Knight. This assumes and FMC based list.

It looks like my wife and I may get to play in a local 2v2 2000pt tournament on the 4th, which sounds like an awesome date as long as we can get a sitter.

We're looking at

Tyranids:
2x Flyrant with Electro
2x Ripper w/DS
2x Mawloc
150pts of something, possibly a 3rd Mawloc. Biovores even.

Eldar:
Jetseer x2
Jetbikes
2x Wraithknights
2 to 3 Dire Avenger filled Wave Serpents

It will be all book missions, which makes me consider taking more ripper broods and letting her bulk up on firepower while I handle mission objectives. I have NO idea what meta to expect as this isnt at our usual location, but her dual Wraithknights make me feel a lot better about running into Eldar or Knights.

 Iechine wrote:
It looks like my wife and I may get to play in a local 2v2 2000pt tournament on the 4th, which sounds like an awesome date as long as we can get a sitter.

We're looking at

Tyranids:
2x Flyrant with Electro
2x Ripper w/DS
2x Mawloc
150pts of something, possibly a 3rd Mawloc. Biovores even.

Eldar:
Jetseer x2
Jetbikes
2x Wraithknights
2 to 3 Dire Avenger filled Wave Serpents

It will be all book missions, which makes me consider taking more ripper broods and letting her bulk up on firepower while I handle mission objectives. I have NO idea what meta to expect as this isnt at our usual location, but her dual Wraithknights make me feel a lot better about running into Eldar or Knights.

Sounds like a lot of fun. Can you self-ally? A number of tournaments seem to be allowing that. You could get 3 flyrants decked out plus 3 deep striking ripper squads along with a Mawloc for 995. That would hit like a ton of bricks and compliment your wife's eldar very nicely

I have to find out, that was something Im hoping to be able to do but I havent gotten in touch with them yet (GW in Bowie) as we just saw the facebook post about it today.

 Hulksmash wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Of course they will, and having wounds on them will make them question taking that risk.

But without VT's a nova charged Riptide is only going to inflict .32 wounds with the cannon and another .13 from it's non VT smart missiles. In other words a Tyrant will die in around 6 turns (assuming I fall out of the sky once and without FnP). A Tryand kills a Riptide in 5-6 turns assuming the Riptide never hurts itself.

None of this takes into account the increased ability of the Tryant via psychic powers (Warp Blast, Psychic Shriek, Catalyst).

In others words in a list with 3 Knights and 3 Riptides the focus from a tyranid tyrant should be on tearing down the Riptides if the troops aren't available because that is the most bang for your buck as well as the largest reduction in enemy capacity when you kill one.

Wait wait what? I was with you all the way till the last sentence, it seems we interpret the information at hand differently... Riptides being so cheap, such a small pricetag, low in damage output vs our main offensive units according to your maths, and so so durable for the price, seems like these are the last things you want to focus... yes you can trade positively if you spend all game shooting at them with a Flyrant, however you should focus more immediate threats that not only hit harder, but die easier. Crisis Suits --> Knights --> Commander --> Riptides. Seriously. Riptides last. Just for example as Tag said, assuming that maths is correct, and optimal positioning, you can just about kill all 3 Knights in the amount of time it takes to kill just one and a half Riptides. Other than Psychic Shriek rolls, I don't think you should ever throw your damage output away sinking it into Riptides.

Let me break this down for you. I'm pretty sure I've addressed it multiple times but we'll try one more time.

Troops & Etheral/Commander are going to be hidden/not on the table. We're all in agreement that when they show up we kill them. Yes? Good.

Now, that leaves Knights and Riptides. Riptides have higher damage output towards you than Knights. They are more likely to knock you out of the sky for the Knights (low probability but massively higher than 3 heavy stubbers). They are easier to kill than a shielded side of a Knight. They have less "wounds" than a Knight. Riptides have a roll that can cause wounds to themselves that increases their firepower and putting wounds on them makes this a choice.

So, to recap. There may be an opportunity to damage a Knight. If there is you take it. But if you have a choice between a shielded knight (highly likely) or a Riptide you take the Riptide. Killing a Riptide is exponentially better for your army than a Knight. This assumes and FMC based list.

Fair enough - I guess this is really specific for your list. Being that I run 8 MC's and only 2 of them are flying, I think I would focus the Knights. That being said, if I was building specifically to beat that list and not TAC, cramming as many Flyrants in as I can might just be a better option.

I think the FMC list is a TAC list. It performs well against pretty much any match up. That said it isn't the list I run. I run a combined FMC list with Daemons for some added flexibility. I give up 3 FMC's but gain psychic support and the ability to summon units I need on the field. It fairs extremely well against Knights/Tides.

I do agree with you that if you are primarily ground pounding then Knights are the priority target. Since they then do far more damage to your army than Riptides ever could.

Once more into the Charity Tournament Breach dear friends.

Once more I approach, though this list should at least make Shuppet and a few others happy (largely because I'm focusing on painting for the next few weeks to get things done and not letting myself fall for the terrible nature of Trygons.)

Rules for the Tournament are as follows....

1800 points
No Unbound, LoW or Fortifications
Allies are allowed
Warlord Traits are rolled for at the beginning (So, obviously, aim for MoA. Go go Battleforged lists!)

What I have planned currently is the following...

Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers
Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers

Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Malanthrope

10 Termagants
10 Termagants
11 Termagants
3 Tyranid Warriors - Barbed Strangled, Devourers
4 Ripper Swarms - Deep Strike

Crone
4 Shrikes - 1 Twin Boneswords, 3 Lash Whip and Bonesword, Toxin Sacs, Flesh Hooks

Carnifex - 2 x Twin Devourers
Carnifex - 2 x Twin Devourers
Tyrannofex - Acid Spray, Electroshock Grubs

Seems stable so far, right?

Flyrants and Carnifexes provide a solid bunker in the terms of volume of shots, Crone is there to deal with enemy flyers or just be a nuisance and Vector strike lone ICs to ID them to death. T-fex is a nice solid bunker of anti-infantry and the Shrikes are my noble unit to murder big critters that come along.

But I have a second choice... for the cost of the T-fex and the Rippers I can take a third Flyrant and field 2 Force Org charts (as I will have 4 troops).

Ultimately I'm weighing the value of a 3rd Flyrant against a T-fex and some Rippers.

Opinions?

I like 3 Flyrants. But i'm a sucker for FMC's.

Here's a little conundrum... how do the Agile and Onslaught rules work together?

Agile says to pick one from:

1) Don't run and fire all weapons

2) Run once and fire 1 weapon

3) Run twice and don't shoot

Onslaught lets you "run and then shoot in the same shooting phase".

It's not clear how it would work with options 2 and 3. How would you all play it?

That's interesting, and I'm not sure. What actually has Agile in the dex?

Nothing in the dex has it, only things like Hierodules and the Hierophant.

nothing in the dex. But the Barbed heirodule has it.

RAW, onlsaught would let you run and still shoot.

RAI, im thinking make it so that you can run and shoot 2, or run twice and shoot 1. Basically just upgrade one step on the agile chart.


Ninja'd

 Eihnlazer wrote:
nothing in the dex. But the Barbed heirodule has it.

RAW, onlsaught would let you run and still shoot.

RAI, im thinking make it so that you can run and shoot 2, or run twice and shoot 1. Basically just upgrade one step on the agile chart.


Ninja'd

That seems totally reasonable to me...so I expect the official answer to be the complete opposite!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Once more into the Charity Tournament Breach dear friends.

Once more I approach, though this list should at least make Shuppet and a few others happy (largely because I'm focusing on painting for the next few weeks to get things done and not letting myself fall for the terrible nature of Trygons.)

Rules for the Tournament are as follows....

1800 points
No Unbound, LoW or Fortifications
Allies are allowed
Warlord Traits are rolled for at the beginning (So, obviously, aim for MoA. Go go Battleforged lists!)

What I have planned currently is the following...

Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers
Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers

Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Malanthrope

10 Termagants
10 Termagants
11 Termagants
3 Tyranid Warriors - Barbed Strangled, Devourers
4 Ripper Swarms - Deep Strike

Crone
4 Shrikes - 1 Twin Boneswords, 3 Lash Whip and Bonesword, Toxin Sacs, Flesh Hooks

Carnifex - 2 x Twin Devourers
Carnifex - 2 x Twin Devourers
Tyrannofex - Acid Spray, Electroshock Grubs

Seems stable so far, right?

Flyrants and Carnifexes provide a solid bunker in the terms of volume of shots, Crone is there to deal with enemy flyers or just be a nuisance and Vector strike lone ICs to ID them to death. T-fex is a nice solid bunker of anti-infantry and the Shrikes are my noble unit to murder big critters that come along.

But I have a second choice... for the cost of the T-fex and the Rippers I can take a third Flyrant and field 2 Force Org charts (as I will have 4 troops).

Ultimately I'm weighing the value of a 3rd Flyrant against a T-fex and some Rippers.

Opinions?

You know me, I loves me some Tyranofex. I think both choices are strong. So personally I would go with the figs I am most comfortable using (the Tyrano).

I played an 1850 match against a mech-heavy Iron Hands+IG allies list a few days ago. He was packing 6 leman russes (3 executioners, 1 LRBT, 1 exterminator, 1 demolisher) two tri-las predators, a predator infernus and a plasma-vet chimera squad.

My list had one Dakka-Flyrant (I initially had 2 but dropped the second one because my opponent was a new player and I didn't know beforehand if he had AA or not), two venomthropes, the living artillery formation, Tgaunts and 4 dakka-fex's.

I was initially apprehensive because of all those blasts. Buuut in the end, the match was an exercise in hilarity. He won the roll-off to go first, so at the start of the game he took a couple of pot-shots at my gaunts, who happened to be rocking a 3+ from the venomthropes. I informed of him of what the 'thropes and shrouding does, so he decided to try to focus down my venomthropes first- which kind of proved to be a bit of a blunder. The 'thropes were both in ruins, and so were rocking 2+ saves, and he spent four turns dumping every point of dakka he had in his list into those two venomthropes. lol

I don't know why he was so insistent on killing them, I guess after the first turn of throwing over a 1000 points of shooting at one and not causing a single wound it just became personal, but by the time they were killed at the top of turn 5, they'd easily tanked 4-5000 points of shooting between the two of them. lol

Also, my Flyrant killed an entire Leman Russ squadron in a single shooting phase via rear-armor shots.

t'was a good day for the 'nids.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:
Once more into the Charity Tournament Breach dear friends.

Once more I approach, though this list should at least make Shuppet and a few others happy (largely because I'm focusing on painting for the next few weeks to get things done and not letting myself fall for the terrible nature of Trygons.)

Rules for the Tournament are as follows....

1800 points
No Unbound, LoW or Fortifications
Allies are allowed
Warlord Traits are rolled for at the beginning (So, obviously, aim for MoA. Go go Battleforged lists!)

What I have planned currently is the following...

Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers
Flyrant - 2 x Twin Devourers

Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Malanthrope

10 Termagants
10 Termagants
11 Termagants
3 Tyranid Warriors - Barbed Strangled, Devourers
4 Ripper Swarms - Deep Strike

Crone
4 Shrikes - 1 Twin Boneswords, 3 Lash Whip and Bonesword, Toxin Sacs, Flesh Hooks

Carnifex - 2 x Twin Devourers
Carnifex - 2 x Twin Devourers
Tyrannofex - Acid Spray, Electroshock Grubs

Seems stable so far, right?

Flyrants and Carnifexes provide a solid bunker in the terms of volume of shots, Crone is there to deal with enemy flyers or just be a nuisance and Vector strike lone ICs to ID them to death. T-fex is a nice solid bunker of anti-infantry and the Shrikes are my noble unit to murder big critters that come along.

But I have a second choice... for the cost of the T-fex and the Rippers I can take a third Flyrant and field 2 Force Org charts (as I will have 4 troops).

Ultimately I'm weighing the value of a 3rd Flyrant against a T-fex and some Rippers.

Opinions?

Something to consider - a third flyrant, in addition to the psychic abilities that it brings, will bring a third electroshock grubs upgrade (which looking back it seems like you haven't given to any of your flyrants). Although it might not be ideal to kit out a tyrant that can't use all of it's weapons each turn, having that haywire flamer (which ignores cover remember) it is still very potent. If you can bring 3 templates to bear on a tank turn 1 (which is actually a lot easier done than you might think, even without onslaught) you have a really solid chance at first blood even if it's AV13 or higher. And that's even without rolling any psychic powers that could bust a tank. Remember also that since the psychic phase isn't in the shooting phase any more, you can effectively "split fire" by targeting one unit with a malediction or witchfire and target another in the shooting phase. They just bring so much to the table. I never leave home without them

If you want to free up points for Rippers (which I would if I was you) just drop a Gant squad.

Oh and I know this isn't really tactics-related (but I am looking forward to the tactical applications that I will discover this Friday) - assembled my Dimachaeron and I'm very excited. I haven't proxied it in game so this will be my first time using him and after seeing the sculpt in person I don't really care if he's just a bullet magnet (but I'll do what I can to make sure that isn't the case )

Oh and sorry for the weird orientation for the pictures - I can't seem to fix it but when you click on the picture it's oriented correctly, as well as in all of my preview programs. If anyone knows how to fix that I'd love to hear it

Long time lurker on this thread and was curious on y'alls opinion on a few things. At my FLGS we play 2k games strictly by the book meaning as many CAD's, Formations and Apoc allies that you could fit. Only limitation is that Unbound normally plays with Unbound, and super heavy LoW list normally need to bring two list in case no one wants to play against them. I am a Tyranid player at heart and when it comes to the local tournaments and league play I am one of the more competitive player. My more competitive list is built around Dakka Flyrants and a Tyrannofex in the hopes to convince people to shoot him. For this months League I had been playing the following list:

HQ:
3 Dakka Flyrants w/ Electro grubs
Elite:
Brood of 2 Zoanthropes
Venomthrope
Troops:
3 Minimum broods of Hormagaunts
Minimum brood of Warriors w/ barbed strangler
Heavy:
Tyrannofex w/ Electro grubs
2 Single Dakkafexes

Formation: Living artillery node
3 Biovores
Exocrine
3 Warriors 2w/ deathspitters and one with a venom cannon.

If there was one thing that list did it was destroy light armor and infantry. Only real issue I have is with heavy armor which id have to glance down or hope my carni's get close enough or high toughness like Wraithknights. So I was thinking of trading out the Dakkafexes for two Vindicare Assassins. Potentially limiting my mobility can be a bummer but the potential to actually shoot something on turn one in some games, explode a high armor vehicle, or focus on a wraithknight and with some luck kill it with 2 shots. Seems like a lot of gain for losing something everything else in my army does good at.

And I take hormagaunts over deep striking ripper broods because I have terrible luck on scatter and they are the fastest Obj Sec in the codex without a formation. Zoanthropes are together for the off chance they get to warp blast I have much better luck with 2 shots rather than one, assuming I make it to the To Hit portion.

Ok, just got back from vaca and it seems that I sort of missed out on some of the topics here. So here is my take, or mini-tactica, on how Tyranids can deal with multiple Imperial Knights, especially the dreaded Adamantine Lance Knight formation.

First off, what is the Adamantine Lance formation? Basically, it is a formation consisting of 3 Imperial Knights, either Paladins, Errants or a mix of the 2. In this formation, if a knight stays within 3" of another knight, then they get a bunch of bonuses. First of all, they get to re-roll their Ion Shield saves. That's a 4++ re-rollable save and a 3++ re-rollable save for the Seneschals. Next, they get to re-roll their charge attempts. Finally, each knight gets D3 Hammer of Wraths instead of just 1 HoA attack.

I'm going to break this tactica down into 4 parts. First of all, I'm going to talk a little more in-depth about 1) the knights - their strengths and their weaknesses. Then I'm going to talk about how to deal with them with both 2) foot-bugs and 3) flying bugs. Finally, I will discuss how to deal with the latest craze which people are calling the 4) Pacific Rim Imperial Knights.


I. The Ecology of the Imperial Knights.

I'm not really going to go into the different knights that are out there. That isn't the point of my tactica. Rather, I'm going to go into the strengths and the weaknesses of an Imperial Knight (IK) build, because to properly be able to defeat the enemy, one must know thine enemy. If you can know their strengths and weaknesses, then you can better formulate a strategy to take them on. In particular, I will refer to an Adamantine Lance (Adlance) IK build as that will be the future of competitive, tournament IK builds.

First of all, one thing you have to understand is an Adlance IK build is just like a deathstar army. You have about 60% of an 1850 army invested in just 3 units consisting of 3 models. Like a deathstar army, they tend to stay together until your opponent feels that it is time to break them apart in order to kill 3 different units. And just like a deathstar army, they share the same weaknesses in many respects.


Strengths of the Imperial Knights.

1. They are tough for Tyranids to take out with shooting. While we can take them out with shooting, if our units do not have the mobility to get into their different armor facings, most likely we will be shooting at AV13 with 4++ or 3++ saves (re-rollable if they are in the Adlance formation).

2. Destroyer weaponry. D-weapons will just kill our bugs in Assault. We have few assault options against the knights. We need to gang up on them with multiple monstrous creatures or our MC's will die before they can even get to swing. And even if we do gang up against the knights, they are still better at killing multiple MC's than we are at just trying to kill 1 knight! Basically, we are very inefficient when it comes to killing knights in assault.

3. Mobility. Knights are actually very mobile. Other than our FMC's and some of our fast attacks, they are more mobile than most of our bugs. It is actually quite hard to out-maneuver them unless you are running a Tyranid Airforce (or Skyblight). In most cases, they should be able to dictate where the assaults will take place and they should be able to get the charges off against our bugs unless we park our bugs in cover.

4. Board Control. The knights can actually control the board/table better than our bugs. That is because currently, most competitive Tyranid builds run nidzilla. The knights just excel in tearing up our nidzilla builds. We are forced to keep our big guys at bay in order to wait for the right opportunity to attack. In this case, we cannot advance against the knights with our big guys the way we normally can against other armies.

5. Multiple Targets. Many people don't realize the advantage of being able to target multiple units, but it is actually really good. So here is what a knight can do. He fires his 2 S8 AP3 blasts at the core of your army (let's say, your venomthrope and any MC's near him) and then he fires 1 heavy stubbers at your termagant screen in front and another heavy stubber into a 3rd unit elsewhere. Now he's got the option to assault any of those 3 units which he has just fired at. Better yet, let's say his S8 blasts wipe out the venomthrope and 1 of his stubbers takes out a zoanthrope. With other units, they are basically done for the turn, but with the knight, now he can assault the termagants that he just fired at with his other stubbers. He can potentially target and kill up to 3 units in just 1 turn!!!


Weaknesses of the Imperial Knights.

So they are super resilient to our shooting, can beat us down in assault and can out-maneuver our bugs in most cases. Moreover, they can potentially kill several Tyranid units with just 1 knight in just 1 turn. How in the heck are we to deal with that? While the knights match up well to many of our Tyranid units, they do have some weaknesses for our bugs to exploit.

1. Deathstar Syndrome I. They share the same weaknesses as deathstar armies. They can only be in so many places at any given time. If you can spread out your bugs and force them into multiple directions, then you can actually overcome their mobility advantage. More importantly, if you can force them to break up, then they lose their Adlance advantage.

2. Deathstar Syndrome II - Limited Resources. Deathstar armies have limited resources. They can only take on so many units at a time. Thus, you can potentially overwhelm them by overloading them with more targets than they can handle. I am talking about MSU, or Multiple-Small-Units Tyranid builds. All deathstar armies are susceptible to armies with many, many units. They can't kill enough and the ones they kill are only worth a fraction of the points that the knights cost. Now I am not saying that Imperial Knights cannot deal with multiple units. I am saying that they tend to have trouble against these types of builds because of the limitations of the army. The formation is, after all, a formation of just 3 models.

3. Limited Shooting. The shooting of IK's is rather limited. Against particular armies, they may be adequate....but they really aren't against a Tyranid army protected by a Venomthrope/Malanthrope bubble. As long as you can keep the important bugs in cover, the Tyranid army should be able to survive knight shooting.

4. Tyranid Tarpits. Knights (with the exception of the Castigator) are more suited to handling the more elite bugs. They don't do horde particularly well, even with their stomp attacks. They will have trouble with large bodies of Tyranid gribblies or even the free gribblies spawned by our tervigons.

5. ObSec, or lack of. Knights are not Objective Secured. Thus, if the bugs are going 2nd, they can still contest objectives held by these knights.

6. Vulnerable to flyers. This is perhaps the biggest weakness of the knight. They are near helpless against flyers and flying MC's. In that regards, they will have to rely on the "support" units that make up the rest of the knight army in order to deal with flyers and FMC's. Either that or to wait for FMC's to land on objectives on Turn 5.


II. Foot Tyranids Versus the Knights.

Foot bugs will really struggle against the Imperial Knights, especially if they are going against multiple IK's a la the Adamantine Lance (Adlance) formation. This is a bad matchup for Tyranids in most cases, just as venom-spam Dark Eldar used to be a bad matchup for us in the olden days. Other than the flyrants, a ground-&-pound Tyranid army lacks the mobility to really hurt a knight army with its shooting. And while we can survive their shooting, the knights will beat our MC's in assault. As a result, they will control our movement, taking away one of the strengths of our armies - board control. So what can Ground Nids do against the knights? How do you play against multiple knights with a Tyranid footlist?


For this topic, I will use as an example one of my 1850 Take-All-Comer's (TAC) Tyranid lists:


Hive Tyrant - Wings, 2x TL-Brainleech Devourers, Electroshock Grubs
Hive Tyrant - Wings, 2x TL-Brainleech Devourers, Electroshock Grubs

Malanthrope (if Forgeworld is not allowed in your area, then substitute with Venomthrope and Zoanthrope and drop 1 gargoyle)

Tervigon - Electroshock Grubs
30x Termagants
3x Ripper Swarms - Deepstrike

26x Gargoyles

Dakkafex - 2x TL-Brainleech Devourers
Mawloc

Bastion

Living Artillery Formation:

3x Tyranid Warriors - Stranglethorn Cannon
3x Biovores
Exocrine


Tactics Against the Imperial Knights with Foot-Nids.

1. Spread out. I know it sounds counter-intuitive for a Tyranid army relying on the protection of a Malanthrope/Venomthrope bubble, not to mention Synapse as well, but try to spread out as much as possible. Flyrants go towards the flanks. Mawloc and rippers deepstrike into their rear. Spread out as much as you can. DO NOT let the knights box-in the core or your army. There are several reasons for doing this.

a) You want to try to split them apart. When together, the Adlance knights have various buffs and are harder to kill. If you can force them to separate, then it becomes slightly easier to kill them.

b) If they box you in, then they have achieved Positional Dominance. That means they have the advantage in an objectives-based scenario as they have easy access to the objectives while forcing your army out of position with regards to the objectives. While you are playing defensively, the knights and their support units are already moving onto the objectives. Thus, when Turn 5 comes around, they are already entrenched onto the objectives whereas you are fighting your way to the objectives. Spreading out helps to alleviate this as they cannot move onto the objectives when you've got threats in their backfield or already on their objectives.

c) A knight army is one of limited resources. By spreading out, you force them to chase after your army. And with 3 main threats, it is very easy to take them out of position if they have to spend the time and effort to go after your units. Basically, you can potentially LEAD a knight away from where it wants to go (i.e. an objective or another more valuable unit). Positioning is a HUGE part of the knights' tactics and if you can control how they move, then you will have achieved Positional Dominance and gained an advantage over them.

2. Tarpit. This game is actually a game of management - time management and resources management. Your bugs might not have the tools to take down 3 knights, but if you can force them to waste their resources, then you can neutralize some of the advantages. In this case, tarpitting is an excellent tactic against the knights. Gargoyles, huge gribbly units, tervigon-spawned gribblies....all are excellent units used for these purposes. Even use your monstrous creatures if you have to. You need to be willing to sacrifice your units, but every turn you can force them to stay stuck in combat with your sacrificial unit is a turn that is to your advantage. As an army of finite resources, a knight army cannot afford to waste precious resources. Having their 370+ pt unit stuck in combat with a 120-180-pt unit for a few turns is a waste of their resources. So what advantage does tarpitting bring to a Tyranid army? This leads to the next tactic (Tactic #3).

3. Kill the rest of the army. As with any deathstar army, it is much easier to beat a deathstar army not by killing the deathstar itself, but by killing the supporting units (namely, the rest of the army). Go after the rest of the army if you can. However, you do need to keep the knights preoccupied in order to do this, and you can do so by either trying to tarpit them or to "distract" them by letting them kill sacrificial units. If you think you have the opportunity to take down a knight easily, then go for it. However, if it takes too much resources to do so, then go after the rest of the army instead. At the very least, go after the units that are on or can very easily get to the objectives (don't worry about units stranded in the middle of nowhere far from any objectives).

4. Screening. Another great tool against the knights is to screen them out. In this regards, the tervigon is very valuable as he can potentially produce layers and layers of screening units. However, do not hesitate to use other units for screening purposes as well. Throw in your biovores, the ripper swarms, the tyranid warriors, heck, even the kitchen sink if you have to. Do not assault them with the screening unit. Rather, get in the paths and force them to either assault your unit or to move around it. Again, a knight army is an army of finite resources. Screening out serves several purposes:

a) It delays them, causing them to waste resources either going around your screen or by assaulting it. Every turn you can delay the knight is a turn to your advantage.

b) It protects your more valuable units.

c) It stops their advance. If you can stop them from advancing, then you take back their advantage in the Movement phase. Namely, you can temporarily stop their Positional Dominance. They do not have Positional Dominance if they cannot control the Movement phase. Rather, you will.

5. Electroshock Grubs. ALWAYS take this upgrade whenever you can. It also has the benefit that, when a knight charges you, he has to eat 1-3 haywire shots in the process (due to the Wall of Death Overwatch). That can be a difference-maker between a dead bug and a dead knight.

6. Stay in cover. This applies especially for your monstrous creatures. If your MC is about to get assaulted and it cannot get away, then try to have it parked in area terrain. This will give it at least 1 Smash attack before (or at the same time as) the knights gets to strike.

7. When all else fails, CHARGE! It's normally better to screen out and let the knight assault you. It's also normally better to let the knight assault you if you've got Electroshock Grubs. But when you have no other recourse but to assault, then do it. Just try to do so with multiple threats in order to increase your chance for success. 2 particular units can be very useful here. The 1st is the harpy, as it will reduce the knight to Initiative 1. The 2nd is the carnifex due to its high strength and the fact that it can potentially do damage with its Hammer of Wrath attacks.





Coming up next....Part III - The Tyranid Airforce versus Imperial Knights.

A good article of you to write, man. At Mechanicon my only current plan if I run into them is to send 4 flyrants to shock one knight a turn and wait on my Carnifex to move out in the later turns.

IMHO, if someone is fielding a Knight (or more) against you, then he should let you field a Harridan (or any other LoW) against him.

Can't always do it at tournaments. In fact for some unknown reason the Harridan isn't allowed in events out here that have even limited LoW which is weird. It's not an incredibly amazing unit.