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Is there any validity to the idea of using cult troops in the Elite slot instead of paying for a marked lord to make them troops?

The idea seems sound to me. I'm a guy who actually prefers a crap ton of regular CSM in my troops slots because they're cheap, cheerful, and relatively shooty. I've specifically been thinking of running 2 squads of 10 x Plague Marines with Double Specials, and since I don't really want to spam them what would be the harm of simply having them in the elites slot? I normally use Huron as my HQ due to the sheer amount of utility he brings to a list and I try to get a Sorcerer in there for a couple rolls on biomancy to buff my troops. I'd like to get PMs into my list for their resiliency and their ability to take on high toughness targets with poisoned weapons. As far as I can tell, it's the only way to get poisoned attacks into a Chaos List without rolling on the nurgle table or getting a lucky Boon roll.

So I guess another question would be: What is the best way for CSM to deal with High Toughness.

What does dakka think? I'm trying to keep things "In Codex" so keep allies discussions to a minimum.

Got demolisher cannon? It gives you vitamin "feth your draigostar". Also gives you a healthy dosage of "MoN obits? Well...looks like your obliteraters just got....*shades*....obliterated."

ÝYYYYYYEEEEEEEAAAAAHHHHHH

 Kain wrote:
Got demolisher cannon? It gives you vitamin "feth your draigostar". Also gives you a healthy dosage of "MoN obits? Well...looks like your obliteraters just got....*shades*....obliterated."

ÝYYYYYYEEEEEEEAAAAAHHHHHH

I have several concerns about Vindicators that make them less desirable than two PM squads. First is the fact that if they are targeting single model MCs then there is a distinct possibility that the pie plate will scatter. Even if they don't scatter they will be able to do a maximum of one wound per turn, not a good out put for the investment. Even with a stormbolter, a single weapon destroyed could ruin your day. Cover neuters the effects of the Demolisher shell as well, but doesn't effect the PMs quite as much since they put out multiple shots.

So, while the vindicator does seem ideal for doubling out pesky paladin models and nurgle models, I don't think it fits the specific criteria for MC hunting.

gpfunk wrote:I've specifically been thinking of running 2 squads of 10 x Plague Marines with Double Specials, and since I don't really want to spam them what would be the harm of simply having them in the elites slot?

Why bother?

For 260 points, you get 10 T5 wounds with FNP and two meltaguns. For 264 points, you get 18 T4 wounds and two meltaguns on a scoring unit. Against bolters, the plague marines have only 126% the durability of the CSM (so, not THAT much more), while the CSM have WAY more durability against guns with better Ap, better S, or especially both. It takes only 12 meltagun-style hits to wipe out those plague marines, while it takes 21 to do the same to the CSM (going on twice as many shots to achieve the same effect).

Yeah, you also get plague blades, but you get a worse initiative, and the worst close combat stuff ignore FNP anyways, while the CSM get nearly TWICE as many attacks as the plague marines, so they're better in close combat. And they have OVER twice as many bolters as the plague marines, so they're better at shooting too.

In this case, you should stick to your usual instincts. Plague marines give you a slight advantage in durability against a few classes of weapons, while the CSM give you more durability against others, and have more killing power. And they score.

Now, if you were talking about something that you couldn't get form CSM, like a 4++ save, or sonic weapons, then that might be another story, but with plague marines, I don't see why you should bother, really.

Khorne Beserkers in an Elite slot? Sure, they'll probably get wiped out to a man over the course of the game so its not that big of a loss. Thousand Sons are shelf pieces (despite their 4++ IMO), and Noise Marines could be used as an Elite (though why not have them also be scoring if you can?) But PM in an Elite slot? It just seems silly to pass up the chance to take them as scoring units if you are going to take them at all. Especially given how hard to kill a Nurgle Chaos Lord can be.

And as has been pointed out to Ailaros in other recent threads, 10 PM are just as durable (statistically) as 18 CSM and are Fearless without needing an Icon. But still, I wouldn't bother taking 10 PM in a single unit. May as well just run the cheaper CSM if you are going to do that; a big advantage of PM is the ability to take double special weapons in small units.

In the end, yes. You can run them as Elites if you want to. They're an Elite choice by default after all. That doesn't make it the "best" or "most effective" decision though, and I'd advise against it.

 Ailaros wrote:
For 260 points, you get 10 T5 wounds with FNP and two meltaguns. For 264 points, you get 18 T4 wounds and two meltaguns on a scoring unit. Against bolters, the plague marines have only 126% the durability of the CSM (so, not THAT much more), while the CSM have WAY more durability against guns with better Ap, better S, or especially both. It takes only 12 meltagun-style hits to wipe out those plague marines, while it takes 21 to do the same to the CSM (going on twice as many shots to achieve the same effect).

May not be averages but I do get a save against everything but Strength 10. I like to try and give my opponent multiple things with which to use their meltaguns on. These PMs will be moving forward, and with meltaguns only having a 12" range, I should have to only weather one round of that before being in combat. Units that can take a lot of meltaguns (as in more than 2) will either be expensive, or fragile. So, while the lower initiative will hurt me, unless the squad has meltaguns AND a lot of power weapons, I should be okay.

Yeah, you also get plague blades, but you get a worse initiative, and the worst close combat stuff ignore FNP anyways, while the CSM get nearly TWICE as many attacks as the plague marines, so they're better in close combat. And they have OVER twice as many bolters as the plague marines, so they're better at shooting too.

Twice as many attacks that will do nothing (or close to it) to the kind of creatures I want these guys to take on. I like their poison attacks because they're a semi-reliable way to help me deal with MCs. It doesn't matter if I have more S4 attacks that can't wound. Bolters are also close to useless against MCs, wounding on 6+ or not wounding at all. They're more efficient against normal troops and generic units that aren't terribly hard to deal with in the grand scheme of things, but they are far less useful against MCs. Which is exactly what I want them for. A specialist, in codex unit, that has some way to deal with crazy high toughness values that are creeping into my local meta. (Can't wait til that Wraithknight my eldar friend ordered comes in :/)

In this case, you should stick to your usual instincts. Plague marines give you a slight advantage in durability against a few classes of weapons, while the CSM give you more durability against others, and have more killing power. And they score.

More regular infantry killing power. Which I don't really need more of. I don't need to have a specialist unit to deal with normal infantry. Codex:CSM has plenty of that. I do need something that can deal with MCs without me having to waste tons and tons of lascannons and missiles. I actually already spam normal CSM for the reasons you have mentioned. They offer a good, durable foundation that can deal a lot of hurt to enemy troops choices and fragile elites. The Plague Marines are being used to deal with the holes and gaps in my list.

Now, if you were talking about something that you couldn't get form CSM, like a 4++ save, or sonic weapons, then that might be another story, but with plague marines, I don't see why you should bother, really.

So, while you may not think that plagues are worth it, you think that there are other cult troops that you would put in an Elite slot? Specifically Thousand Sons and Noise Marines? I assume that's because they have something that you can't emulate with Marked CSM, yes?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

cowmonaut wrote:
In the end, yes. You can run them as Elites if you want to. They're an Elite choice by default after all. That doesn't make it the "best" or "most effective" decision though, and I'd advise against it.

What would be the "best" and "most effective" method of dealing with High Toughness MCs then? In codex for CSM? At the very least they'd be useful to tarpit the monstrosities for awhile. One round you have the champion challenge, next round the MC has to kill all the PMs or be stuck for another turn. Fearlessness helps, and the fact that they can actually hurt the blasted things is a big plus. I usually need my lascannons to take out transports and tanks. It's just unfortunate that my opponents generally bring both. Every shot that those MCs tank is another one that could've blown up a tank or transport. There's got to be a better way.

I could see working in some noise marines as an elites slot filler. Ignores Cover and Blastmasters go a long way in 6th with cover everywhere.

I like my plague marines because of fearless. That 1 guy left from a squad that just took a few plasma hits can still score (if hes a troop of course) and hide fairly well.

A Daemon Prince can make Smash attacks at S10 in close combat. Just putting that out there...

 Super Ready wrote:
A Daemon Prince can make Smash attacks at S10 in close combat. Just putting that out there...

Main problem being that he takes up an HQ slot. I find that the utility of the Sorcerer is a greater force multiplier than the daemon prince which would basically just be used to go after MCs. Then there's the fact that they're T5, and so can be doubled out by any other MCs that choose to smash as well if he fails even one save.

 Wingeds wrote:
I could see working in some noise marines as an elites slot filler. Ignores Cover and Blastmasters go a long way in 6th with cover everywhere.

I like my plague marines because of fearless. That 1 guy left from a squad that just took a few plasma hits can still score (if hes a troop of course) and hide fairly well.

5 Noise Marines & blastmaster will run you 125 points
5 Plague Marines & a pair of plasma guns will run you 150

Since they're not scoring, you don't need to worry about objective camping. With that in mind, I think the Noise Marines do a better job of hiding in a ruin or behind an ADL blasting away.

Yea, I can add as well. Just throwing out there that a fearless unit is sometimes nice to have. Especially if they're scoring.

And yes, that was my idea for some Noise marines, park them in some cover and have them blast away.

Wait, you want to take plague marines so that you can handle monstrous creatures in close combat? Why? Plague marines are bad in close combat, what with not getting many swings per point, and they're slower. They're furthermore really bad against MCs, who are the exact units that are going to have S10 Ap2 weapons (or some other form instant death). Even if you still get FNP, you're still going to lose the squad of plague marines faster than the CSM. Also, don't forget that you can use krak grenades on monstrous creatures now, which means that having half as many plague knives doesn't stack against twice as many krak grenades as well as you might think.

In any case, you're going to do better shooting the monstrous creatures than charging them with plague marines. I mean, if we're talking about elite choices, you'd get a LOT more mileage out of 260 points spent on combi-plasma+power axe terminators or by taking chosen with a bunch of special weapons.

Or shooting them with tri-lascannon predators. That would be my preferred way to handle monstrous creatures in this codex.

Or a lord with a murdersword, or a sorcerer with a force weapon, or, or...

Yea, force weapons are your best bet in the chaos dex against MC's. A sorcer with axe rocking invisibility comes to mind.

 gpfunk wrote:
Is there any validity to the idea of using cult troops in the Elite slot instead of paying for a marked lord to make them troops?

The idea seems sound to me. I'm a guy who actually prefers a crap ton of regular CSM in my troops slots because they're cheap, cheerful, and relatively shooty. I've specifically been thinking of running 2 squads of 10 x Plague Marines with Double Specials, and since I don't really want to spam them what would be the harm of simply having them in the elites slot? I normally use Huron as my HQ due to the sheer amount of utility he brings to a list and I try to get a Sorcerer in there for a couple rolls on biomancy to buff my troops. I'd like to get PMs into my list for their resiliency and their ability to take on high toughness targets with poisoned weapons. As far as I can tell, it's the only way to get poisoned attacks into a Chaos List without rolling on the nurgle table or getting a lucky Boon roll.

So I guess another question would be: What is the best way for CSM to deal with High Toughness.

What does dakka think? I'm trying to keep things "In Codex" so keep allies discussions to a minimum.

I wouldn't. I have a death guard army, and I would avoid using PMs in a non-scoring capacity. PMs are super resilient, but not very killy. That makes them great for mid-field, and deep objectives as they can get there and still weather the storm. If they aren't scoring, then they shouldn't be stopping on objectives. If they aren't stopping, they aren't holding. If they aren't holding, then resiliency becomes a secondary attribute for your needs. In that sense I would avoid non-scoring PMs. If you have a surplus of scoring CSMs, then you must be looking to use your elites slot for killing. At killing, there are a number of better options.

- Choosen would fit the bill, weighing in at about the same cost as the PMs while adding some aggression. Don't go overboard with the tools and they won't get super expensive. They can also be marked to add the toughness (but not the FNP/poison/etc). Afraid of high strength? Take an extra annonymous powerfist. That's better than a Sgt with a powerfist in this edition.

- Terminators are more expensive, but once marked are more resilient than PMs and more efficient at killing. Combis address your need for plasma while giving you more cc punch.

- Other cults troops would have their place, but I would consider them a fluffy angle before an efficient angle.

- Possessed aren't terrible if you can accept the random aspect and paying a premium for them.

I was dropping Collossus and basilisks shells on 30 plague marines a few games back. Those jerks made more 5+ FNP rolls than I have ever seen. I could not for the life of me wipe out any of the squads, by turn 5 there was still a solitary PM sitting on each objective.

PM seem the way to go, gonna ally typhus, zombies and some PM with my guard I think.

 Ailaros wrote:

gpfunk wrote:I've specifically been thinking of running 2 squads of 10 x Plague Marines with Double Specials, and since I don't really want to spam them what would be the harm of simply having them in the elites slot?

Why bother?

For 260 points, you get 10 T5 wounds with FNP and two meltaguns. For 264 points, you get 18 T4 wounds and two meltaguns on a scoring unit. Against bolters, the plague marines have only 126% the durability of the CSM (so, not THAT much more), while the CSM have WAY more durability against guns with better Ap, better S, or especially both. It takes only 12 meltagun-style hits to wipe out those plague marines, while it takes 21 to do the same to the CSM (going on twice as many shots to achieve the same effect).

Yeah, you also get plague blades, but you get a worse initiative, and the worst close combat stuff ignore FNP anyways, while the CSM get nearly TWICE as many attacks as the plague marines, so they're better in close combat. And they have OVER twice as many bolters as the plague marines, so they're better at shooting too.

In this case, you should stick to your usual instincts. Plague marines give you a slight advantage in durability against a few classes of weapons, while the CSM give you more durability against others, and have more killing power. And they score.

Now, if you were talking about something that you couldn't get form CSM, like a 4++ save, or sonic weapons, then that might be another story, but with plague marines, I don't see why you should bother, really.

Except for the fact that plague marines live against heldrakes

Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

gpfunk wrote:I've specifically been thinking of running 2 squads of 10 x Plague Marines with Double Specials, and since I don't really want to spam them what would be the harm of simply having them in the elites slot?

Why bother?

For 260 points, you get 10 T5 wounds with FNP and two meltaguns. For 264 points, you get 18 T4 wounds and two meltaguns on a scoring unit. Against bolters, the plague marines have only 126% the durability of the CSM (so, not THAT much more), while the CSM have WAY more durability against guns with better Ap, better S, or especially both. It takes only 12 meltagun-style hits to wipe out those plague marines, while it takes 21 to do the same to the CSM (going on twice as many shots to achieve the same effect).

Yeah, you also get plague blades, but you get a worse initiative, and the worst close combat stuff ignore FNP anyways, while the CSM get nearly TWICE as many attacks as the plague marines, so they're better in close combat. And they have OVER twice as many bolters as the plague marines, so they're better at shooting too.

In this case, you should stick to your usual instincts. Plague marines give you a slight advantage in durability against a few classes of weapons, while the CSM give you more durability against others, and have more killing power. And they score.

Now, if you were talking about something that you couldn't get form CSM, like a 4++ save, or sonic weapons, then that might be another story, but with plague marines, I don't see why you should bother, really.

Except for the fact that plague marines live against heldrakes

It takes on average 20 Baleflamer hits to kill 10 Plague Marines. It takes on average 21.2 Baleflamer hits to kill 18 Chaos Space Marines.

 Ailaros wrote:
Also, don't forget that you can use krak grenades on monstrous creatures now, which means that having half as many plague knives doesn't stack against twice as many krak grenades as well as you might think.

I've never found krak grenades effective against T8. Ever. I use them to assault tanks, and they do alright with that. But having to roll a 6 with one attack each...I just don't see it doing anything impressive against an MC.

In any case, you're going to do better shooting the monstrous creatures than charging them with plague marines. I mean, if we're talking about elite choices, you'd get a LOT more mileage out of 260 points spent on combi-plasma+power axe terminators or by taking chosen with a bunch of special weapons.

Thought about terminators. But any of the weapons that would be useful either can't wound (S4 power swords) or go at I1 (Power fists and Axes). I can rapid fire my plasmas at T8, which is still a lot of 5+ to wound, and there's the distinct possibility that it'll have cover or some psyker cast invisibility on the damn thing.

Chosen with Special weapons get crazy expensive. Glass cannons in the extreme. I'm sure they'd be focused down quickly. I considered it, but I don't have my codex so I'm unsure how much it would cost to have just the 5 plasma guns. If plagues aren't that much more durable than CSM, Chosen are 0% more durable with a crazy price tag for the ability to spam plasma. See final statement on this below.

Or shooting them with tri-lascannon predators. That would be my preferred way to handle monstrous creatures in this codex.

As I said, I really like using my lascannons to work on troop transports and heavy tanks. If I happen to kill all of those things very quickly, then I can turn my attention to the big baddies. That's usually not the case.

Or a lord with a murdersword

Overpriced piece of wargear that would only work on one MC a game. I also mentioned my HQs were basically set. Huron for some choppy and a lot of intangibles and a Sorcerer for force multiplying powers.

or a sorcerer with a force weapon, or, or...

Two wounds, options either being STR 5, AP2, Unwieldy at which point he gets smushed before he can attack or ST4 AP3 at which point he can't wound the damn thing. I can't count on rolling Iron Arm every game, so I don't consider this an answer. Least not a consistent one.

 Wingeds wrote:
Yea, I can add as well. Just throwing out there that a fearless unit is sometimes nice to have. Especially if they're scoring.

And yes, that was my idea for some Noise marines, park them in some cover and have them blast away.

Oh I was just agreeing with you and thinking out loud.

 gpfunk wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:

In any case, you're going to do better shooting the monstrous creatures than charging them with plague marines. I mean, if we're talking about elite choices, you'd get a LOT more mileage out of 260 points spent on combi-plasma+power axe terminators or by taking chosen with a bunch of special weapons.

Thought about terminators. But any of the weapons that would be useful either can't wound (S4 power swords) or go at I1 (Power fists and Axes). I can rapid fire my plasmas at T8, which is still a lot of 5+ to wound, and there's the distinct possibility that it'll have cover or some psyker cast invisibility on the damn thing.

Chosen with Special weapons get crazy expensive. Glass cannons in the extreme. I'm sure they'd be focused down quickly. I considered it, but I don't have my codex so I'm unsure how much it would cost to have just the 5 plasma guns. If plagues aren't that much more durable than CSM, Chosen are 0% more durable with a crazy price tag for the ability to spam plasma. See final statement on this below.

Saw your response for my comment as well. That's always been a thing for me. A lot of people see them and think they have to just because they can. I see 5x specials being cool, but likely overkill for the cost. Try 2-3 specials and 1-2 cc weapons. Really they are just CSM with an extra attack and a lot of options. I think they will come out at the same basic cost as the PMs. If it wasn't for the Abaddon tax I'd take them as troops a lot. Maybe I will in the future.

Looking over my options, figured I would detail them here:

Chaos Chosen - Shooty Option
1 x Chaos Champion with Plasma Gun
4 x Chaos Chosen with Plasma Gun
5 x Chaos Chosen Bullet Catchers
Total: 255

Huron infiltrates them up to where they can be firing turn one. Peck away at the MCs with 5 Plasmas a turn until they get within 18 or 12. Rapid fire 10 shots and hope the MC fails it's charge. Ideally you'll get three rounds of shooting. Still wounding on 5's against T8, but ignore armor and can fire from turn one. Fragile. Tau will have no trouble dealing with this option as they can focus fire this squad down to nothing. Quite possible to kill a large amount of the squad if you're unlucky with your Get's Hot rolls. Rely's heavily on terrain placement for optimal fire lanes and defensive bonuses.

Chaos Chosen - Assaulty Option
1 x Chaos Champion (Naked)
4 x Chaos Chosen with Power Fists
2 x Chaos Chosen Bullet Catchers
1 x Chaos Rhino
Total: 261

Rhino is absolutely necessary to get them up-field. If they get into assault, which is a big if, then the Champion gets the honor of being pasted first in single combat. Hopefully the group makes their LD test and you stay locked in. Second round you've got multiple fists swinging, wounding on 4's and ignoring armor, but you have no durability whatsoever. I suppose there's a reason you never see any Chaos Chosen kitted out for melee. It has problems due to transport rules, assault rules, initiative rules, leadership tests, and it's more expensive than the plasma option. Granted you'll never kill yourself with a powerfist (Barring a fight with a Necron), but you may never kill anything else with it either.

Chaos Terminators -
1 x Chaos Terminator Champion with Power Fist and Combi-Plasma
5 x Chaos Terminators with Power Fist and Combi-Plasma
Total: 260

Cheaper, Killy, and more survivable than the melee chosen. Seriously, who play tested melee chosen? I can see what Ailairos was talking about. I hadn't looked at Chaos Terminators for awhile, so I forgot how dirt cheap they are. Ideally, they come in as soon as reserves are available, deep strike into rapid fire range of an MC and unleash 12 plasma gun shots. They try to tank as much of the next turn of damage as they can, then attempt a charge on the MC. First round is going to be another Champion beat down, and hopefully they pass their leadership. You can pay 3ppm to get them all up to LD10 so you've got a good chance of passing. Next round you've got a bunch of fists swinging, and a hell of a lot more durability. You can drop the fist on the champion if you want to save points, since he's just going to be punked anyway, or you can give him a power maul to try and sneak and wound in.

 gpfunk wrote:
Looking over my options, figured I would detail them here:

Chaos Chosen - Shooty Option
1 x Chaos Champion with Plasma Gun
4 x Chaos Chosen with Plasma Gun
5 x Chaos Chosen Bullet Catchers
Total: 255

I actually kinda like this. Put a unit far up and in a position where they can do some damage. If you are planning on sitting in terrain and shooting, I would consider taking a heavy instead of one plasma. A lascannon would make them even more annoying to deal with. It's expensive, but it can be very irritating to deal with. Maybe MoN to keep them alive longer?

Chaos Chosen - Assaulty Option
1 x Chaos Champion (Naked)
4 x Chaos Chosen with Power Fists
2 x Chaos Chosen Bullet Catchers
1 x Chaos Rhino
Total: 261

Too many powerfists in my opinion. Just like a hammer squad needs lightning claws you need fast swinging killers to do upfront damage. Take two max, and spend the extra points on power weapons and marks (especially VoTLW). I would also give a weapon to the champion. He is harder to paste if you pick easy fights and arm him to win. A Pfist will get him killed, but he has access to lightning claws. A lightning claw champ with MoS WILL win most challenges against normal units and that can be very cool. Having an armed champ is often disputed, but I think you always should if you are picking your battles right. I would say if both choosen options include the use of Huron put these dudes on foot and infiltrate/outflank in. They would make an excellent backfield unit. Hell, if Huron goes with them thats a nasty little unit.

Chaos Terminators -
1 x Chaos Terminator Champion with Power Fist and Combi-Plasma
5 x Chaos Terminators with Power Fist and Combi-Plasma
Total: 260

Again, too many fists. I take a walking squad of terminators, and I usually have two chainfists and the rest power weapons. The chainfists will give you higher success against vehicles, so you won't need the insurance of more fists. Tons of plasma is awesome though. If you walk in I would also pay for the autocannon though, more consistent shooting from the start.

I think all of these suggestions would make the units a little bit cheaper, which could then be respent on marks and other goodies if desired.

 Ailaros wrote:

gpfunk wrote:I've specifically been thinking of running 2 squads of 10 x Plague Marines with Double Specials, and since I don't really want to spam them what would be the harm of simply having them in the elites slot?

Why bother?

For 260 points, you get 10 T5 wounds with FNP and two meltaguns. For 264 points, you get 18 T4 wounds and two meltaguns on a scoring unit. Against bolters, the plague marines have only 126% the durability of the CSM (so, not THAT much more), while the CSM have WAY more durability against guns with better Ap, better S, or especially both. It takes only 12 meltagun-style hits to wipe out those plague marines, while it takes 21 to do the same to the CSM (going on twice as many shots to achieve the same effect).

Yeah, you also get plague blades, but you get a worse initiative, and the worst close combat stuff ignore FNP anyways, while the CSM get nearly TWICE as many attacks as the plague marines, so they're better in close combat. And they have OVER twice as many bolters as the plague marines, so they're better at shooting too.

In this case, you should stick to your usual instincts. Plague marines give you a slight advantage in durability against a few classes of weapons, while the CSM give you more durability against others, and have more killing power. And they score.

Now, if you were talking about something that you couldn't get form CSM, like a 4++ save, or sonic weapons, then that might be another story, but with plague marines, I don't see why you should bother, really.

My thoughts exactly.

If you're building a competitive list, running Plague Marines as troops in #5-7 and giving them two special weapons makes sense, since you can fit more melta/plasma in your army per point than if you went with squads of 10 CSM. Still, if you're taking more than one unit of a Cult Troops there's basically no reason not to slap a mark on a Sorcerer/Lord and make them scoring. You can never have enough scoring units.

Humblesteve wrote:
Comments on Power Fists and Ranged Chosen.

The idea of giving the chosen a heavy weapon isn't a bad one at all. Especially considering they'll be sitting and plinking away. I may give that a shot.

As far as the power fists are concerned, I want this squad to hunt Monsterous Creatures. The power weapons are cheaper but they don't reliably wound like a fist does, hence the number of them in each of the CC units.

 gpfunk wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
A Daemon Prince can make Smash attacks at S10 in close combat. Just putting that out there...

Main problem being that he takes up an HQ slot. I find that the utility of the Sorcerer is a greater force multiplier than the daemon prince which would basically just be used to go after MCs. Then there's the fact that they're T5, and so can be doubled out by any other MCs that choose to smash as well if he fails even one save.

Just pointing this out, you can combine those two roles with a ML3 Daemon Prince. Think of it as an upgrade from the sorcerer: better CC punches, much tougher. Get wings to make him crazy fast.

You do have to get one book power, but you can just go nurgle to get a good malediction.

It can be as expensive as you want it w/ varying mastery levels, wings or not, etc.

Why not try using a monstrous creature from the Chaos Dex..or a model that some people seem to think is a monstrous creature. The Maulerfiend, give him the lasher tendrils for a few extra points and you have a cheap multi-powerfist unit with 3a, 4a on a charge. He already has an invuln that matches the FnP of the plagues granted its one less save then a p-marine would get but if a MC smashes the plagues they won't get the armor or FnP since ID would occur and the attack would be ap2. With the tendrils you reduce the attacks and since any monstrous creature you come up against will use smash to give it a 2+ to pen you can really reduce the damage output of the enemy. Now I'm sure you are reading this going why would I put a single model against a MC when the MC will pen on a 2+? Add in 3 chaos spawn with the mark of Nurgle in front of the maulerfiend to eat some wounds, 3 spawn give 9 wounds to eat through plus with the MoN they are that much harder to wound and last I checked not many MC's can throw out 9+ wounds in a single round of combat, granted the spawn have very little to zero chance of stopping those wounds so they will most likely die as soon as the MC starts throwing out hits. However you already mentioned suiciding a termie champ or plague champ or chosen champ so I don't see how this is any different, and since there won't be any challenge shenanigans you still get the bonus from charging for the maulerfiend. Plus with piling in as long as both squads get the charge off you can still make it where the Maulerfiend is in BtB reducing the attacks of the enemy MC. That squad (2 squads technically) comes in at a little under 250 pts. Plus you get amazing movement speed out of them, both squads moving 12" and the Maulerfiend having fleet give a huge target radius and with the spawn in front it should mitigate the shots going to the maulerfiend, although if they take a ton of shots they could drop before getting into charge range but with the T6 on the spawn not many shots will wound them easily short of anti-tank weapons and if your opponent is shooting anti-tank at that squad that should be a bonus as less high-powered shots are going at the rest of your important stuff.

Its all just a thought, I've been working on using something similar to this in my normal 1250 list while also running 2 hellbrutes with reaper autocannons and a forgefiend with hades autocannons as a mobile armored shooting platform. Basically flooding the field with a high amount of AV12. I'm not sure if you have the open slots for FA or HS to fit the spawn and maulerfiend but I think it could be a very viable strategy, although you lose the shooting that Termies, plague marines, and chosen will give you. This leaves you the option to keep the plagues as troops or hell to even use them in the elites slot being an incredibly annoying midfield unit that doesn't have to worry about trying to score but more keeps the enemy from moving in to take linebreaker from you.

Daemon Prince Options-

The Catch All -
DP with Wings, Power Armor, Mastery Level 3, Daemon of Nurgle, Black Mace - 340 points

Full kitted out, he's kind of expensive. When you account that he would be replacing my Sorcerer for Psyker duties then you've got a pretty good deal on your hands. The Black Mace means he's swinging at S8 AP2, which is exactly what I need. And it goes at Initiative AND it's WS9 and Init 8 which means return attacks can hopefully be tanked. It's fast, moving 12 inches a turn has a Nurgle Power (probably shooting) and will roll twice on Biomancy. Major problems will be T5, which isn't terribly resistant to small arms fire and can be doubled out by S10. It only has a 3+/5++ save so you'll hope to roll well. It's not a terrible option, could be fun to model. And it has uses beyond killing MCs.

The Monster Hunter -
DP with Wings, Power Armor, Daemon of Slaanesh, Black Mace - 260

Coming in almost exactly at what I'd be paying for the Plague Squads, he only has one job. Get into CC as fast as possible. With a 12" move and a d6+3" run he should hopefully get there by turn 2 or 3. The difference between the above is that you're not a psyker. I lose the benefits of buffing troops or myself in exchange for a good amount of points. Cheap and cheerful. Leaves me more room to play with the rest of my list.

The Deterrent-
DP with Power Armor, Daemon of Slaanesh, Mastery level 2 - 225

He runs next to any units that you have moving forward and draws fire, using his Slaanesh Power to plink away at troops and using whatever he manages to roll on Biomancy for your troops. No wings but he still moves 6 + d6 + 3" a turn if he chooses not to shoot, which isn't a terrible loss of fire power. Cheapest way to shoehorn an MC into the list I think. Only S6. Only terribly useful against enemy MC's that want to get close to you (Aka Tyranids). The worst option, but the cheapest. You get what you pay for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Artistic44 wrote:
Thoughts on using Maulerfiends

Several things about the Maulerfiend bother me. They're WS3 and they're Init 3. Most of the MC's I have faced are higher in those categories. So, even if they are having their attacks reduced with the lasher tendrils (Which reduce it's potential damage from the magma cutters) they're still getting hits on you with 3's most of the time and going before you. Very easy to focus this thing down from range, even more so than a Daemon Prince I would say. I like Maulerfiends a lot, but I think they're dedicated tank hunters, not MC killers.

I think we have to look at your secondary question here. What MCs are you fighting and what else is in your army? Killing an MC is usually a group activity for my army. Oblits, PMs, HQ and Elite get in and help out when the MC becomes a priority. If you're just talking about fighting MCs, maybe we should look at how every unit can help. I wouldn't say the CSM codex really has any dedicated MC hunters, but instead everybody has a limited capability to handle MCs in general. What does your Heavy section look like? Everything in there is built to help.

Humblesteve wrote:
I think we have to look at your secondary question here. What MCs are you fighting and what else is in your army? Killing an MC is usually a group activity for my army. Oblits, PMs, HQ and Elite get in and help out when the MC becomes a priority. If you're just talking about fighting MCs, maybe we should look at how every unit can help. I wouldn't say the CSM codex really has any dedicated MC hunters, but instead everybody has a limited capability to handle MCs in general. What does your Heavy section look like? Everything in there is built to help.

My heavy slot is the slot I always fill last. I don't have a standard heavy selection yet. I generally switch between lascannon havocs and triple las predators. Heavy support is used strictly to kill heavy vehicles for me. The rest of my army can cover anything else I'd need. Except MCs.