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Topic.... Why do people do it. Bringing none is foolish and bringing one is ultimately the same as bringing none... You're asking for it to get blasted out of the sky.

Because,
#1 There Cheese.
#2 Sometimes people play for fun.
#3 nice attempt at trolling .

cause some people don't like being "that guy"

cause the model isn't that great looking for a lot o' folks

cause some people enjoy themed armies (my renegades employ no deamons or marks of any kind, super fun to play)

Cause in FA every single option is really really effective

and uhh... yeah that's what i could come up with. But F*** it i have 1 cause i decided to expand

I don't think they're cheese. Without them the CSM dex really isn't that good. It gives the book the competitive punch it needs

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
I don't think they're cheese. Without them the CSM dex really isn't that good. It gives the book the competitive punch it needs

I think oblits are better, Now I don't know the Chaos dex but I'll compare it to IG.
Helldrake = Vendetta
Guards is competitive without Vendettas same for chaos.

Really, it does? CSM has other options, the Hellchicken is just the most obvious and easiest to employ. Not running it doesnt mean you auto-lose because you dont have the "ultimate CSM weapon" it means you want to actually try and have TACTICS in your army instead of "i win buttons" instagibbing everything.

Which it isnt even as great as people hold it as. Its annoying as hell to me, but not end-all strong. Only reason i even pay attention to it as tau is because it rips my troops off the board in 3 turns if i leave it alone without any support from the rest of its army, but aside from that it really doesnt do much to me. As an ork player i literally ignore it since it doesnt hurt bikernobz as much as people think and oooo he killed 5 boyz out of a 30man blob sowhat...i got 100 more behind that. Taking out the lootas is the only issue, and they usually get him first since he cant kill them all in 1 wave.

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
I don't think they're cheese. Without them the CSM dex really isn't that good. It gives the book the competitive punch it needs

Do you play CSM? That's why you don't think they're cheese. Look at their impact on a game and then look at say, the Stormraven. Then compare prices and durability. Are you insane? I'm sorry you don't like the rest of your book, but it's really not that bad. Although meqs in general have a hard life against Tau and Eldar now.

The Vendetta is more badly priced than the helldrake (which is still undercosted), but the Vendetta doesn't hoover up all your scoring units instantly. What the Vendetta DOES do is make mockeries of most lists' counters to the Hellturkey. That's the problem.

Dalymiddleboro wrote:There's never an acceptable reason to bring less than 2 heldrake

How about these reasons?

- They show up late. First blood is important, and helldrakes start the game off the board. Furthermore, their limited mobility means they're awfully likely to be forced to fly off the board, or else enter hover mode, which means they're dead. The amount of time they actually spend on the table, and the ability to use movement to cut off good targets mean they put down less firepower than people originally think.

- They're vulnerable to interceptor fire. Something that's becoming more common these days. Furthermore, they're also vulnerable to skyfire weapons, which are also becoming more common these days. Helldrakes look real cool until a mortis dread throws 2 TL BS4 lascannons at them with an interceptor shot and blow them out of the sky before they get to do anything.

- There's only one class of target that they're good against. They don't have the Ap to handle terminators. They don't have the number of attacks to hurt MCs. They don't have the S to hurt vehicles. A torrent flamer can certainly be useful against hordes, but any good horde player will have a KEEN understanding of what displacement means. Torrent weapons routinely only killed a few guardsmen per blast against my foot guard army, and a few 5-point models here and there isn't serious anti-horde.

Vector strike does help with these things, but it doesn't change the fact that the helldrake is actually a somewhat niche weapon - only being REALLY good against bunched up wads of MEq, which you're not going to come across ALL that often (especially since half the armies in the game can't even field this type of unit).

- They're expensive. For a relatively mono-purpose weapon that arrives late and is extra-vulnerable to certain kinds of weapons (and still vulnerable to regular weapons as well. I've shot down more than one helldrake with meltaguns and lascannons before. You DO roll 6s to hit), you have to pay a pretty hefty price tag.

I mean, for those same points, you could afford a squad of 5 terminators with combi-meltas. Both show up late, and both are difficult to kill, but the terminators have a MUCH broader threat range and get to do things like contest objectives. You could also use those points for a slaanesh lvl 3 sorcerer in terminator with points to spare. He'd be guaranteed to get ecstatic seizures which, last I checked is pretty decent against most infantry units, and he comes with a force weapon to boot. And his other abilities give him army synergy too. Heck, I'd even just take a regular sorcerer with 3 telepathy powers and go on an invisibility/hallucination/psychic shreik spree.

There are other things in the codex that you can get that either eliminate drawbacks, or have broader killing power, or are just plain cheaper.

- You don't need them. If all you want to do is kill marines, you can give everything in your army veterans of the long war. An axe of blind fury will one-shot a tac squad on the charge. You get cheaper marines, or the same price of marines with twice as many attacks in close combat. Or you can give them Ap3 bolters. Hell, there are even silly options like warp talons.

The whole CSM codex, in fact, is soaking with stuff that can take down stuff you find in the space marine codex. Why do you need to go to all the bother for something you don't even really need in the first place?

Whether you like them or not, there are five acceptable reasons to bring less than 2 helldrakes, and that's even before you start considering the soft score arguments like cheesiness, or difficulty to transport, etc.

Personally it is a combination of things. One, the advent of an increasing proportion of interceptor. Two, if there are 3 sections of the CSM codex which are phenomenal, it is Fast, Heavy, and HQ. In fast, I can easily swap it for spawn or bikers to either freight a crazy lord on jugger/bike or bikes to shoot bolters and then crash in for cc.

Perhaps ignore fast to opt for a second HQ telepathy ml3 sorcerer. Maybe swap it out to lug in havoc autocannons, 3 lascannon predators, or even obliterators as multipurpose we-are-counter-everybory gunners.

Tons of other viable and great options. Finally, standards. Most of my group members are beginners or meq heavy players or ork players with limited units to play with. I'm not going to deploy a beast that slaughters beginner players that likely don't have anti-air options.

And that is just my opinion. Not everyone plays netlists nor the generic popular tactic. Some people play for the fluff, some people play with friends, some play themed or unique armies, heck some people just don't care for its looks or playstyle. The CSM codex has a ton of flaws feeling as though it doesn't fit in as well with the other CSM codices. Its assault units tend to not work well, its CSM are overpriced when compared to dark angel troops, it has an almost worthless upgrade (mark of Tzeentch), it is heavily favouring Nurgle, and it denies good representations of most armies besides black legion but auto-take drake it is not.

There's no reason not to bring one if you like flyers. Two or more though unbalances your army. You can play a competiive Chaos army without one.

Heldrakes are the best unit in the codex. I also refuse to bring one. Several reasons why:
1. Fluff: I run a heresy era Iron Warriors army. No Dragons yet.
2. Variety. My Tyranids are as cheesy as I can make a list, solely tailored to win through superior list building. I like my Chaos as more of a mental exercise.
3. Under estimation: When a Chaos player shows up without Heldrakes, they assume it is a weak list and lower their game, which is a mistake.
4. Countering the meta: Everyone is prepared for Heldrakes, everyone knows what they do. Anti air is wasted vs my army.

Read post, was about to say 0/10, saw replies.

Not sure I want to live any more...

I mean, for those same points, you could afford a squad of 5 terminators with combi-meltas

5 termies deters my orks WAY more than a single helldrake, i'd have to agree this is a better option. That is a 5man wall that will easily take out an entire 30man boy blob and then some untill i take it out unless i had a MANz or Bikernob unit to throw at it (and probably lose/take heavy damage in the process).
As Tau it would depend on where it landed but in general i'd say it would distract me because if i didnt remove them ASAP i would get wrecked. Again, much scarier than a chicken with bad breath.

I have been using them in the occasional games i get to play but they have never done much for me. The rear 10 armour means that some lucky punk shots can even take it down and its 170pts of model YOU MUST reserve. You have to line up shots or go into hover mode and vehicles (all vehicles ) die so easily now with all the high powered shots these days. Flying/ or Jump MC with > toughness 5 are the auto-takes since they are tougher to kill then a vehicle that wants to be a FMC

As other have said. Termies can DS but you could (if the mission warranted it) stick them on first turn. Gives you a bit more tactical options than just zoom & flame.

I think I will def be replacing them with something more tactically (and fun) to play.

I would have loved to take a troop carrying flyer (or at least something fast for troops) in CSM's!

love how the first reply on this forum was "there cheese" everything in 40k is cheese these days..

anyways, i love seeing folks bring heldrakes to the table cause it usally ends up for a very good match. I do have to aggree with any flyer, why field just one? you need a min of 2 flyers to be effective or that first one is getting blasted down. Im also been playing 40k from back in 98, so flyers are new and a wonderful addition to me.

Helldrakes are good, but are not an auto-win button. They are a good counter to MEQ armies, but there are a number of counters out there.

Now that Tau are out, there are also more counters for them. 2 markerlight hits on a helldrake change the chance of getting hit by snapshots from 6+ to a 4+. Suddenly those 3 broadsides which were dangerous to the helldrake just became deadly. Remember, Tau can ally with nearly anyone.

Helldrakes are less effective against horde armies. Who cares if they fry 7 orks a turn?

I would love to bring 2 of them, just don't have the $148 retail to purchase them

For one, not everyone wants to take one.
Second, they really aren't needed, as stated above.

Third, they are £45 each. Even from discount stores, that's £36+, and when I already have an entire army (that's relatively effective), that's a whole whack of moolah to add 1 model, let alone 2.

I would like a pair of Heldrakes, but when I do, they'll be magnetised, and at least one if not both, with have Hades Autocannons instead of Baleflamers anyway.

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Topic.... Why do people do it. Bringing none is foolish and bringing one is ultimately the same as bringing none... You're asking for it to get blasted out of the sky.

1. They are expensive. $75 is a lot for something that will likely be nerfed to hell next edition
2. They are big, I like to be able to carry my army in one trip from my car.
3. Other FA choices are great
4. Heldrakes are only really good against marines-Meq, take them against nids, IG, or DE and you will have problems
5. Taking too many heldrakes and they very quickly kill all of their prime targets and are no more use in the game.

Bringing one is optimal. It can get shot down, sure. It still takes a fair amount of firepower to down one and most of the time it will remove a few choice units before it goes. Its a good balance.

I just don't like the idea of a flyer that uses a flame weapon. I will probably never use a heldrake ever.

Next edition won't be out for three years... Also nid mcs are armor three. It vector strikes hive tyrants down and flames 10 gants... Not to mention the work they do on purifiers...

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Next edition won't be out for three years... Also nid mcs are armor three. It vector strikes hive tyrants down and flames 10 gants... Not to mention the work they do on purifiers...

oooo 10 guants?

It can VS a flyrant. ~2 wounds. The flyrant cant get behind a heldrake and unload a ton of str6 shots into it killing it in one turn.

I love them. So much I bought one and made 3 more with extra bits, plasticard, and greenstuff.

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Next edition won't be out for three years... Also nid mcs are armor three. It vector strikes hive tyrants down and flames 10 gants... Not to mention the work they do on purifiers...

Congrats, you just used an expensive flyer for something that a quintet of marines can do! That Hive Tyrant will not get killed by the VS, but it will shoot the crap out of the heldrake.

It will mess up purifiers, I'll give you that.

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Next edition won't be out for three years

How many codex's have been released in the past 12 months?
- CSM.............October 6th, 2012
- DA................January 2013
- CD................March 2013
- Tau...............April 2013
- Eldar.............June 2013

This has been a fairly steady stream of a codex every 2 months. Given there are 15 armies (16 of BT get their own codex), that's a re-release every 32 months, or 2 years and 8 months. Given that the CSM codex was released in Oct 2012, at current release schedules we can expect a new CSM codex in April 2015.

There is really nothing wrong with playing 2 heldrakes. Their not overly expensive, can do huge amounts of damage. People crying cheese have not found a way t counter AV 12 flyers by this point in 6th edition are keeping their head in the sand. It's just sad that the best units in CSM are in FA. Love to see a Chosen get bikes or something to loosen up the codex FOCs a bit.

It's not that simple. The BA main way to counter helldrakes, the Stormraven, is a major liability against lists with Vendettas. The Stormraven is also a liability against horde lists if you don't pay for the sponsons.

I suppose if I had the money, I could get an IG blob and my own Vendetta. That seems like not a good idea with an IG codex coming our within a year probably.

Martel732 wrote:
It's not that simple. The BA main way to counter helldrakes, the Stormraven, is a major liability against lists with Vendettas. The Stormraven is also a liability against horde lists if you don't pay for the sponsons.

I suppose if I had the money, I could get an IG blob and my own Vendetta. That seems like not a good idea with an IG codex coming our within a year probably.

and the heldrake is a major liability against vendettas as well. perhaps even bigger.

Well. The heldrake IS cheaper, doesn't take up a heavy slot, and will absorb more shots than the Stormraven. But it can only fight back with vector strikes. Sounds pretty even. The pricetag on the Stormraven is just crippling, imo.

The deal with the helldrake is that it singlehandedly destroys many meq builds. There is no build singlehandedly destroyed by fething stormravens. In fact, I've beaten some GK lists *because* they brought Stormravens. The risk/reward is much, much better on the helldrake.

the model is butt ugly and spaming them causes people to hate you and not play, yes they will win you games but they also make you increadibly unpopular, i dont use them for friendlies and i still can beat people who are useing them because i can use tactics, far as being nerfed though i belive they are a little too cheap