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So, recently I played my first game with CSM, and it went just fine. Coming out of it, I came to this realization for how to improve things...

Ailaros wrote:

CaptainJay wrote:Otherwise a very enjoyable report, i feel you'll struggle against anything with large ap 2/3 blasts (tau, IG, etc) or particularly shooty armies. Or is that the main appeal of huron? To infiltrate/minimize the number of turns before you charge.

Both of those statements are correct. Good shooting, specifically anti-MEq shooting is my biggest concern at the moment.

The question is what to do about it? I feel like I've got three options. The first is to get more of my own alpha-strike abilities into the list to try and shut down those Ap3 units (which is what the havocs were for this game). The second is to take less Sv3 and more Sv2+. There isn't THAT much Ap2+ large blasts out there, after all. The third is to double down. As you note, that's what huron is for - the idea that I can just put too many Sv3+ bodies too close too fast. The way to continue with the theme would be to either add more speed to get more in the fact (raptors, etc.), or to get more Sv3+ bodies (diluting the berzerkers to CSM and taking more of them). Well, the fourth option is to buy everyone a land raider, but I don't have the cash nor models to be able to do that for now.

The question, then, is which is the best way to go, and the answer to me isn't immediately obvious.

And that, then, is what I'm turning to you all for. Three options, and a rather limited model pool to draw from. Here's a first draft of how I'd go about these:

A.) MORE DAKKA


Huron
Chaos Lord - MoK, Axe of Blind Fury, vets, sigil

10x terminators - MoK, IoW, 2x powerfists, 5x combi-meltas

18x berzerkers - powerfist, IoW
18x berzerkers - powerfist, IoW

7x havocs - 4x lascannons
7x havocs - 4x lascannons

Its the same basic craziness as before, but leaned up. The idea here being that I'd have something other than an infiltrating ENTIRE ARMY to go fishing for first blood, and it will also help against high-mobility and somewhat with fliers.

The main problem I see is that I'm giving up my iron-clad ability to win first blood, as those havocs, while rather durable, are still just 8 dudes. And I've got fewer guys rushing forward, and with worse kit, which waters down my thesis. Plus, this isn't exactly GREAT against some of the stuff threatening the big pile of berzerkers, not really having much to say against artillery or THAT much against fliers.


B.) MORE TERMIES

Huron
Chaos Lord - MoK, Axe of Blind Fury, vets

10x terminators - MoK, IoW, 2x powerfists, 5x combi-meltas 412
10x terminators - MoK, IoW, 2x powerfists, 5x combi-meltas

17x berzerkers - powerfist, IoW
17x berzerkers - powerfist, IoW

Well, it's a wing list. One that infiltrates and has MoK. I'm kind of unsettled by the sacrifices I'm making, though, removing 6 berzerkers and the sigil from the lord. Also, of course, there's not much by way of shooting, which I'm mostly fine with, actually (not worried about mobility, for example)... but...

C.) MORE SPEED

Huron
Chaos Lord - MoK, Axe of Blind Fury, vets, sigil, jump pack

10x terminators - MoK, IoW, 2x powerfists, 5x combi-meltas

18x berzerkers - powerfist, IoW
18x berzerkers - powerfist, IoW

14x raptors - MoK, IoW, 2x meltaguns, powerfist

This would be the proper double-down strategy. There's a 1 in 3 chance that everything but the raptors infiltrates, and the raptors are fast. That means that everything is in close combat by turn 2, or turn 3 at the absolute latest. Once again, though, not much shooting and, more importantly, 14 raptors aren't more durable than 10 terminators. And they don't come with power weapons standard either. It does get a lot of power armor bodies in my opponent's face VERY quickly, though, and would really take command of the board.

Anyways, these three are rough drafts of the concept, I'd be interested in hearing ideas for how to make any of the three styles a bit better. Keeping with the theme of "that's a nice deployment zone, I think I'll deploy there too" that I've got going on.

i congratulate you on a mighty victory for khorne i hope more follow.

PLAN A
i didnt see the havocs doing much for you in the battle report but i mainly put that down to bad rolling and the fact that practicaly everything was tied in cc, its a nice idea as you have more shooting but the idea in the list is to hit everything in cc as fast as possible, i dont see this supporting you in later turns where idealy your taking skulls and names, yet it could be usefull if things havent gone to plan or your opponet is feilding evasive units like battlesuits. id like to see you try squease a quadgun in there somewhere, but other then that i cant realy improve it.

PLANB
20 terminators is scary for some but can also hamstring you horribly if your opponent has plenty of ap2 (vidicators will end this list) as your lower model count hurts, IMO i dont like this list and wouldnt feild it if i werent for the infiltrating ability and that isnt always reliable.

PLAN C
i like this plan but i want to try make it a little better, firstly raptors are fast and providing you with some anti tank but spawn are better in cc by miles, feild a juggerlord and give him a spawn escort stick lord infront and let him take all the hits so you can use his save, then throw the unsaved wounds onto the spawn behind him messing with the wound allocation game ork nobz were famous for. the juggerlord is superior to the jumplord and spawn are realy cost effective 10pts per T5 wound, keep em blank. model wise spawn are easy to make given they are mutated blobs

At this point level you need at last two heldrakes. They are the best unit in the codex.

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
At this point level you need at last two heldrakes. They are the best unit in the codex.

That reasoning does not follow. You don't need to run a unit just because it is the 'best unit.' If the Heldrake filled a role that his list needed or patched up a dire weakness, then that's another story. (Ignoring that Ailaros isn't going to run Heldrakes anyways on principle.)

I'm really digging Plan C, Huron with huge infiltrating choppy squads looks extremely tasty. I'm convinced that CSM can be very competitive if they can assault turn 2, otherwise they get shot up to bits in today's meta.

Wondering if you would try out a couple of Maulerfiends instead of the Raptors? And I think you would have points left over to put the Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut to boost his staying power.

 Talore wrote:

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
At this point level you need at last two heldrakes. They are the best unit in the codex.

That reasoning does not follow. You don't need to run a unit just because it is the 'best unit.' If the Heldrake filled a role that his list needed or patched up a dire weakness, then that's another story. (Ignoring that Ailaros isn't going to run Heldrakes anyways on principle.)

Thank you talore.

I also agree with blackskull that spawns are better than raptor in this situation.

Dalymiddleboro wrote:At this point level you need at last two heldrakes. They are the best unit in the codex.

Nope.

Blackskull wrote: the fact that practicaly everything was tied in cc, its a nice idea as you have more shooting but the idea in the list is to hit everything in cc as fast as possible, i dont see this supporting you in later turns where idealy your taking skulls and names, yet it could be usefull if things havent gone to plan or your opponet is feilding evasive units like battlesuits.

That's an interesting way of putting it. Units like havocs aren't there to make up for holes in killing power so much as a way of trying to catch myself when the strategy itself fails. It's sort of hard to make a case for why this is better when I could always just double down.

Blackskull wrote: 20 terminators is scary for some but can also hamstring you horribly if your opponent has plenty of ap2 (vidicators will end this list) as your lower model count hurts, IMO i dont like this list and wouldnt feild it if i werent for the infiltrating ability and that isnt always reliable.

There's a lot fewer guns out there that are Ap2 than are Ap3+.

Plus, these are khorne terminators. I can lose a third of their number and still hit just as hard as if I were full strength.

Blackskull wrote: i like this plan but i want to try make it a little better, firstly raptors are fast and providing you with some anti tank but spawn are better in cc by miles

Yeah, I really don't see this.

Spawn have T5, but they only have a 5++, and they're more expensive. 5 spawn are 150 points, while 163 gives you 9 raptors. The spawn take 68 bolter hits to put down, while the raptors take 54. Yes, the spawn are more durable, but not by a huge margin, and I WILL come across S10 or force weapons which will basically laugh at the spawn, and the raptors won't care.

Meanwhile, you can spend more points on the raptors than you can on the spawn. Both can take MoK, but the raptors can then take an IoW, while the spawn can't. In this case, assuming 3.5 is the average roll of 1D6, the MoK spawn put down 27.5 S5 WS3 I3 attacks, while the raptors put down 36 S5 WS4 I4 attacks. And they get frag and krak grenades.

And the raptors can take a real close combat weapon with the champ, and they can take meltaguns which, in addition to the fact that raptors get bolt pistols and spawn get nothing means the damage output from raptors is markedly better than spawn. And they can even be more flexible with deepstrike. And their IoW means they can reroll charge range.

If you just want a damage sponge, I can see MoN spawn filling that role nicely, but I don't see how they're just straight better than raptors.

Uktena66 wrote:I'm really digging Plan C, Huron with huge infiltrating choppy squads looks extremely tasty. I'm convinced that CSM can be very competitive if they can assault turn 2, otherwise they get shot up to bits in today's meta.

I was looking through the codex last night and realised that CSM really has only one long-range anti-tank weapon: the lascannon. Nothing is better in the list. Furthermore, their special weapons are really just plasma and melta guns.

Practically the entire codex is taking the same unit and giving it the same weapon options. And they're all units that are just better in close combat with the ability to become MUCH better in close combat (with +T, or +I FNP, or Rage and Furious Charge). Really, CSM is close combat marines: the army with some rudimentary shooting options (and a bale flamer) thrown in.

If pretty much the point of CSM is close combat, then, then why not try and do that as best as possible?

Uktena66 wrote:Wondering if you would try out a couple of Maulerfiends instead of the Raptors? And I think you would have points left over to put the Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut to boost his staying power.

Don't get me wrong, I love me the maulerfiend. The reason I'm kind of cool on it at the moment is that I want to abuse first blood with my army, and having a few AV12 vehicles is sort of spoiling what I'm trying to do.

Anyways, talking on the battle report linked to at the top, I've got a bit of a problem. In order to infiltrate an IC with something in this army, I've got to waste one of my D3's giving infiltration to just the IC.

This is actually a strong argument for either style C, or for getting rid of the khorne lord altogether. But that means I flip the berzerkers down to MoK CSM, but that means that I get more points back to spend on other stuff.

Anyways, talking on the battle report linked to at the top, I've got a bit of a problem. In order to infiltrate an IC with something in this army, I've got to waste one of my D3's giving infiltration to just the IC.

Pardon my confusion here. So if an IC is attached to a unit you still have to use an extra one of your D3's to infiltrate the unit plus the attached IC? I did not know this. Bummer.

Yeah, it says in the rule for infiltration that if an IC without infiltration joins a unit that does, the unit can't infiltrate.

I thought that Huron's rule was something that allowed them to infiltrate (like al'rahem allows units to outflank), but instead the warlord trait gives units the infiltrate special rule. With all the restrictions that entails.

So I just realised that if I set the core list up like this...

Huron

10x termies - MoK, IoW, champ with fist, 6x combi-meltas, chainfist

20x CSM - MoK, IoW, champ with fist, 2x meltaguns
20x CSM - MoK, IoW, champ with fist, 2x meltaguns


... I'd have 500 points to spend on something else. There's a lot of else I could get for this. The question, though, still, is what. What's the thesis?

 Ailaros wrote:
So I just realised that if I set the core list up like this...
... I'd have 500 points to spend on something else. There's a lot of else I could get for this. The question, though, still, is what. What's the thesis?

I thought the thesis was how to hit 'em fast and hit 'em hard?

Lets see, you don't want drakes, spawn or maulerfiends .... so that leaves bikes! You could even embed a biker lord or a juggy lord. Those are my favorite lords - tough as nails and hard to insta kill.

I hate you dropped the berzerkers, I like to think that paying the extra 4 points per model for fearless and WS 5 is well worth it. Personally I'd go juggy lord w/ bikers just to get berzerkers back.

Also, any thoughts about adding in some cheapo cultists just for objective grabs?

Well, I needn't per se. 500 points could restore the two troops, and buy me a third 20x berzerker squad if what I wanted more of was durability. It's just a matter of if that's the right way to go.

I'm also not straight against a small squad of cultists hanging out in reserves either, so long as the rest of the points were well spent.

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, it says in the rule for infiltration that if an IC without infiltration joins a unit that does, the unit can't infiltrate.

I thought that Huron's rule was something that allowed them to infiltrate (like al'rahem allows units to outflank), but instead the warlord trait gives units the infiltrate special rule. With all the restrictions that entails.

Where did you find this?
Because the rule explicitly says that if at least one model has Infiltrate, then the whole unit can infiltrate.
You can just give Infiltrate to Huron (or any other IC) and, if that IC BEGINS the game with the unit, then you can infiltrate the IC PLUS the unit.
Notice that warlord traits are rolled before the game begins, and the rules for IC explicitly allow an IC to BEGIN a game within another unit.
Also, the rules for Independent Characters say that while it is joined to a unit, it is considered as part of the unit "... for all rule purposes.."

However, a FAQ on the topic would be much appreciated

Change the theme but improve the strategy.

Swap out MoK for MoS, IoW for IoE, and buy ccw for 19 marines (exclude champ).

spam pred with side lc. Pray you hit flyers with snap firing tl ac & 2 lc.

Ailaros, I think this will do what you need to do for your heavy slot...

Predator - 115pts
LC Sponsons

Predator - 115pts
LC Sponsons

Predator - 115pts
LC Sponsons

It gives you the Dakka you need, gives you survivability, gives you versatility, and gives it to you at a cheaper cost than the Havoks (345pts vs 362pts). They also don't have silly morale issues and fit the theme of your list that Mark of Nurgle Obliterators don't give you. Personally, if your willing to go over a few points (388pts) and like the Obliterators for their versatility, 2+/5++ and T5, two Oblits with MoN plus VotLW is 158pts. Team them up with the Preds and I think you have Chaos marines best heavy selection spread. I would also suggest, for some extra points, you can ditch the Power Fists and get Lightining Claws and Melta Bombs for your Zerker Champs and get a Melta bomb on your Lord.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit: The champs would have a single Claw for re-rolls due to the Shread (I believe for wounds) special rule and keep you at your Init. The MBs give you anti-vehicle/MC capability.

Also if you do decide to go with a 3rd unit of Zerkers and your looking for a HQ, I would mention a Dark Apostle as he allows everyone in his unit to re-roll 'to hit' in melee. I feel for a Khorne themed army he fills in for a Sorc very well and if you put him and your Lord/Huron in the same unit it can be a heck of a Deathstar offensively. Also Gift of Mutation is a great way to boost a guy for a few points.

Diablix wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, it says in the rule for infiltration that if an IC without infiltration joins a unit that does, the unit can't infiltrate.

I thought that Huron's rule was something that allowed them to infiltrate (like al'rahem allows units to outflank), but instead the warlord trait gives units the infiltrate special rule. With all the restrictions that entails.

Where did you find this?
Because the rule explicitly says that if at least one model has Infiltrate, then the whole unit can infiltrate.
You can just give Infiltrate to Huron (or any other IC) and, if that IC BEGINS the game with the unit, then you can infiltrate the IC PLUS the unit.
Notice that warlord traits are rolled before the game begins, and the rules for IC explicitly allow an IC to BEGIN a game within another unit.
Also, the rules for Independent Characters say that while it is joined to a unit, it is considered as part of the unit "... for all rule purposes.."

However, a FAQ on the topic would be much appreciated

In order for an IC to join a unit at deployment (not counting reserves) it has to be deployed in coherency with the squad it wants to join. You first Infiltrate the unit you want to Infiltrate and then run into the issue of the IC not having Infiltrate, as it hasn't joined the unit yet. If you try the reverse the unit isn't allowed to deploy anywhere outside your deployment zone, as it doesn't have infiltrate.

 Ailaros wrote:
Well, I needn't per se. 500 points could restore the two troops, and buy me a third 20x berzerker squad if what I wanted more of was durability. It's just a matter of if that's the right way to go.

I'm also not straight against a small squad of cultists hanging out in reserves either, so long as the rest of the points were well spent.

Well you need to have a cheapo unit for your home objective because sitting 20 CSM of any variety especially the choppy kind just doesn't fit the bill here. I don't think a bastion is an awful choice for you in this case as 10 cultists and a bastion is only 125 and you can add a quad gun and put a havoc unit in the tower for better LOS. The AV14 will keep your cultists safe until last turn where you can have them escape the rear and score. Reserves work as well but I'd still want a comms relay in the list so you improve the chance to keep them off thew board until turn 4.

Also have you considered Fabulous Bill at all? He makes one of those CSM units s5 fearless and his one unit fearless as well, he has a nice ranged weapon and isn't a slouch at combat himself really. He is like hurons slightly worse half The liquid snake to hurons solid snake if you will.

I am just expressing my opinion here however from someone who has run a lot of CSM and Chaos mixed. I think all three builds are not going to be that competative and I will say why instead of just saying 'they are not competitive.. Aside from cultists every troop in CSM codex is expensive, beserkers are expensive and are not really that impressive, they got nerfed in cc this edition and without a vehicle to protect them they are going to fall to things quickly. The problem with rhinos is that you can assault out of them, the problem with a land raider is that they are expensive, however with huron you could infiltrate an infantry unit in a dedicated transport like termies in a land raider (expensive), you could put a lord here with termi armor. If you want to run with the spawn idea which IS AWESOME by the way then run 5 spawn with a lord on a Juggy with axe
Otherwise I would put the lord on a bike instead of jump pack as it increases his T and he can do almost the same things...
If you are going to run Havoks I would run a squad of autocannons - they are cheap and have a shot at AA something, even better would be to put them behind an aegis on a quad gun for Champion and have a chump of 2 to take first few hits.
I do think that drakes do so much for an army, even this one.
I have seen Khorne lists that run like what you have or even with rhinos and they tend to get crushed to outshooting - Eldar and Tau or get smashed in CC vs Nids and Orks (although Orks are hard to be competitive now). Choas will probably do really well against this list as the points for troops and good cc stuff and anti-air is better than what CSM can do by itself, now the two together is a different story. I have used Lords on jump packs, but that is usually to jump in with a squad of oblits, so that they can jump in and on the next turn he can jump away and smash something else while the oblits fire or fire and cc. In those builds I tend to go Fist and klaw and MoN to get blight grenades and have the option of weapons but still get the extra attack since both specialist weapons....
Good luck

As for the infiltration thing, I've startedthis thread.

Filch wrote:Change the theme but improve the strategy.

Swap out MoK for MoS, IoW for IoE, and buy ccw for 19 marines (exclude champ).

I'm open to switching it out for slaanesh, but I'm not sure how MoS IoE marines are necessarily going to be better. I like the idea of FNP, but I also like the idea of FC and rerolling charge range.

BlkTom wrote:Predator - 115pts
LC Sponsons

It certainly is cheap. I've got two problems with it, though. Firstly, I don't own any CSM vehicle models. The second is that I'm not quite sure this is the best way to go.

I mean, 6 lascannons and a couple of autocannons come on havocs for even cheaper, and I already have infantry models. I mean, if we're talking about a 500 point gap, that's enough to fit 3 4x lascannon havoc squads in. 12 lascannons seems to be a lot more killing power than a few preds are going to muster.

But the bigger question at hand, is why bother with either? What am I going to come across that I can't just triple down on berzerkers for?

Also, if the answer that question mostly revolves around fliers, then why not take flakk-missile havocs?

BlkTom wrote:I would mention a Dark Apostle as he allows everyone in his unit to re-roll 'to hit' in melee. I feel for a Khorne themed army he fills in for a Sorc very well and if you put him and your Lord/Huron in the same unit it can be a heck of a Deathstar offensively.

Well, they already get to do that against space marines, and I don't know how necessary hatred is against everything else (seems like they'd get chumped pretty hard already.

I do like the idea of boon re-rolling, but I don't know if that's enough. The +Ld isn't going to be that useful on a basically fearless army, for example, and I don't know how much I need another power mace.

Eiluj The Farseer wrote: Aside from cultists every troop in CSM codex is expensive, beserkers are expensive and are not really that impressive, they got nerfed in cc this edition and without a vehicle to protect them they are going to fall to things quickly.

To the contrary.

The game I linked to above saw masses of khorne berzerkers tabling a GK player. Berzerkers are expensive, but they hit on rerollable 3's, and then wound on 3's. With up to 80 attacks on a charge that they get to reroll the range on. They ran over Mordrak and 4 ghost knights like they weren't there.

And that's the thing with khorne. The other 3 chaos gods try and make it so that you take half as much damage. Khorne works by allowing you to take twice as many casualties as the other gods, but to still have the same amount of killing power. They follow the horde mentality, rather than the marine mentality... except they wear power armor.

That's plenty competitive.

Eiluj The Farseer wrote: If you want to run with the spawn idea which IS AWESOME by the way then run 5 spawn with a lord on a Juggy with axe

Why are spawn better for this than raptors or bikes?

Furthermore, why is a khrone lord with an axe necessary at all (outside of the lord making berzerkers scoring)? It's not like I don't have enough anti-infantry.

Eiluj The Farseer wrote:I have seen Khorne lists that run like what you have or even with rhinos and they tend to get crushed to outshooting - Eldar and Tau or get smashed in CC vs Nids and Orks (although Orks are hard to be competitive now).

How?

My worries about tau are pretty low, as they can kill 95% of my army in shooting (which will be tough when things are infiltrating - not very much time), and I'll still table them in close combat once I arrive. Meanwhile, I'm rather curious how khrone lists are getting out-chopped by orks.

I guess I can see nids being a bit more of a problem with MCs, but given that krak grenades work against them now, and there's a big old pile of them, and I can put some beefy CC dudes in specifically to challenge them...

BlkTom wrote:Personally, if your willing to go over a few points (388pts) and like the Obliterators for their versatility, 2+/5++ and T5, two Oblits with MoN plus VotLW is 158pts.

Well, MoK (or MoS, if I decide to go that route).

Anyways, I'm not averse to them either. The question is once again what are they for? I guess I like the idea of being able to have some catch-up units in case of extreme mobility annoyances, and they do have TL for handling fliers, I suppose. Also, it would be more terminators in an army with terminators, and with up to 4 power fist attacks per model per squad, they'd even be shockingly beaty in close combat as well.

But they do suffer from the whole being off the table for awhile thing. I guess this is less of an alpha strike risk so long as they're starting the game in reserves. I guess the question, though, is if I want some powerfists and a bit of shooting that jumps out of deepstrike, then why not just take more terminators?

Red Corsair wrote:Well you need to have a cheapo unit for your home objective

No I don't.

My opponent has objectives, I'll just take his.

Red Corsair wrote:I don't think a bastion is an awful choice for you in this case as 10 cultists and a bastion is only 125 and you can add a quad gun and put a havoc unit in the tower for better LOS.

That's an interesting take on the dakka option. 4 autocannon havoks with a quad gun in some AV14. Plus worthless scoring unit. The question would be one of what else I'd put with it.

Red Corsair wrote:Also have you considered Fabulous Bill at all? He makes one of those CSM units s5 fearless and his one unit fearless as well, he has a nice ranged weapon and isn't a slouch at combat himself really. He is like hurons slightly worse half The liquid snake to hurons solid snake if you will.

Yes, I will.

And yes, bile is... very interesting. I don't like him for the damage he can put out (an Ap- force weapon? Hmm...), but he WOULD be a different way to do the berzerkers. One squad loses WS5 down to WS4, and another squad loses WS5 to 4, but gains +1S... Which means S6 khorne berzerkers... with an S10 powerfist...

I suppose the biggest draw for this is that it's all rather cheaper, costing 80 points per squad cheaper than the berzerkers for most of the same power.

It's certainly an interesting idea...

Interesting twist on the Infiltration interpretation. I need to read the rule again when I get back home tonight!

Looking at your lists I have a few general thoughts.

If your gambit is Huron's infiltrate ability you should account for the randomness. One unit is guaranteed to infiltrate, number two very likely, but number three is more likely to have to do some foot slogging. It might be the requirements are the same for infiltrating unit and one that needs to run for a few turns more, but consider not making identical units but tailoring them a bit for their likely task.

I think you should keep the Berserkers. Imagine the dissappointment of your CSM unit infiltrates, runs up on turn 1 to set up a charge and then fails a morale check...

As you noted a Khorne unit that gets into combat will win most of the time even if they are just a few left. Your units are pretty big and the question is if it is poor economy. Shaving of a few models here and there might get you another unit (or even two?) without any noticable decrease in efficiency.

Problem with havocs in this army is that you will split your team in two. If there is one thing Oblits have going for them it is that they can move upfield while firing. Still I think it would be more "in theme" with Fast Attack elements. Khorne Bikers? Bikers are pretty cheap and it would be a great way to get your lords mobile protection.

I played a 750 game last night against my bro who was trying his eldar out or the first time in 6th with the new dex.

My list:

Fabulous bill
7 MoK IoW CSM
20 MoK IoW CsM
2 MoK Mutilators each separate unit (trying them out)

His List:

Lvl 3 farseer (guide, fortune, doom, lucky fether)
10 Guardians w BL
10 Direavaengers
5 warp spyders
5 Swooping hawks
5 rangers
3 shining spears

He mauled me, but whats worse is I realized that with the new battle focus and fleet army wide I could never catch him! and with pseudo rend he just slaughtered me. we played to turn 3, actually he got three I got 2 due to a lack of models after his turn three shooting.

He didn't bring a great list too. He wanted to try everything and basically 10 DA and 5 WS rended all my stuff to pieces with the bikes and guardians coming in mopping up.

Basically you really do need range or speed to counter this or it's not a good outlook. We played Hammer and anvil and Emperors will and i placed my objective at the half and we set up 24" apart. with 18" and battle focus you are always needing a 12" charge to catch WS or DA and 10 Guided DA gets 18 hits with 3 rends each phase on average PLUS another 6 armor rolls, so they drop 5 Meq a turn then sprint away. WS are literally uncatchable with an 18" assault 2 strength 6 gun that becomes AP1 on 6's and a d6 battle focus and 2d6 jetpack withdraw you can't get the. Heaven help you if 10 of these were on your case. Thats 18 hits guided, 3 rends and 12 armor saves for a whopping 7 kills a round.

As if all this isn't bad enough when I do make the charge range they over watch with guide and kill the lead model. I was bleeding models in his and my turn. Saddest thing was the fact that with the new bladestorm, half the time I don't even get to roll dice. So he gets to dump buckets and I just pick up dead models.

Funniest part waqs when he doomed fabulous bill and the smaller unit, ran up and managed 7 rends with his DA and due to only having Bill and 4 dudes Bill needed 3 FnP checks and fails them all dying a glorious death only slaanesh can be proud of as he falls to the ground with a raging erection only for it to be sliced to pepperoni by a hail of other AS checks that weren't necessary. ROFL!

We had a blast and I got to dust off my KB models but they promptly went back in my case.

Oh btw he also seized on me. The game literally was yahtzee, him looking for 6's all game and me needing 6's for assault.

sadly you don't even mitigate this bringing huron. I'll explain;
in order to infiltrate you need to stay more then 18" away in plain sight (you'll never hide 10 TEQ or 20 MEQ) meaning despight the stupid no assault first turn rule, you can't muster it anyway. Then the fact that eldar weapons are all 12-18 means you are just doing him a favor. He gets to shoot from turn 1 and battle focus away so you need to constantly run and hope he chokes on his battle focus. Problem is eldar all have fleet so they reroll that damn run move after they shoot. The more you spend on your infantry the better each kill is for him. With a Dire Avenger at 13 points and a CSM at 13 I'll take the DA any day. 10 DA will maul 10 CSM even with bolters.

Even from fluff it drives me nuts as my CSM shoot their pistols loaded with tiny HE missile rounds only to watch his fortuned DA make all their saves... BTW sans fortune I would have got 1! While his 80's metal kids shoot their no longer needed DVD collections at me and my guys fall to the ground in ribbons.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Diablix wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, it says in the rule for infiltration that if an IC without infiltration joins a unit that does, the unit can't infiltrate.

I thought that Huron's rule was something that allowed them to infiltrate (like al'rahem allows units to outflank), but instead the warlord trait gives units the infiltrate special rule. With all the restrictions that entails.

Where did you find this?
Because the rule explicitly says that if at least one model has Infiltrate, then the whole unit can infiltrate.
You can just give Infiltrate to Huron (or any other IC) and, if that IC BEGINS the game with the unit, then you can infiltrate the IC PLUS the unit.
Notice that warlord traits are rolled before the game begins, and the rules for IC explicitly allow an IC to BEGIN a game within another unit.
Also, the rules for Independent Characters say that while it is joined to a unit, it is considered as part of the unit "... for all rule purposes.."

However, a FAQ on the topic would be much appreciated

In order for an IC to join a unit at deployment (not counting reserves) it has to be deployed in coherency with the squad it wants to join. You first Infiltrate the unit you want to Infiltrate and then run into the issue of the IC not having Infiltrate, as it hasn't joined the unit yet. If you try the reverse the unit isn't allowed to deploy anywhere outside your deployment zone, as it doesn't have infiltrate.

This is the correct order of operations for deployment. Sadly Huron takes 2 of his charges of infiltrate to infiltrate/outflank himself and an infantry unit. The only thing I know that supersedes the infiltrate/outflank rule is Saga of the Hunter wargear.

Q: Does a character with Saga of the Hunter pass on his Outflank and
Stealth special rules to a unit he joins before deployment? (p64)
A: Yes.

Red Corsair wrote:we played to turn 3, actually he got three I got 2 due to a lack of models after his turn three shooting.

He didn't bring a great list too.

Something seems fishy about that. An eldar player with a junk list tables a CSM force in two turns? That sounds like the result of an eldar player being very lucky (or you being very unlucky), rather than a structural problem.

That said...

Red Corsair wrote:with 18" and battle focus you are always needing a 12" charge to catch WS or DA

This, of course, is the structural problem.

One thing that I suppose would stop this problem is bolters. For your opponent to shoot you with a 12" gun and then fall back up to 12", then they are necessarily in double-tap range for return bolter fire. Even with fortune, that's still enough for a squad of 20 CSM to kill half the squad in a single round of shooting.

Furthermore, a bolter at single-tap range does outrange a shuriken catapult. I guess, if anything, that's the real reason to take MoK CSM over berzerkers - they can have guns. In this case, a couple of plasma guns probably would have made a difference as well.

I suppose I wonder how much long-range support would have helped here. MSM means that he can get completely out of LOS with a little savvy terrain placement, or at least dive back into cover.

Certainly some speed would have been better, I guess I agree, but what you're talking about would still give the eldar a turn or two. It seems like what would be more useful there would be to have some combi-plasma termies deepstrike. If needed, with the kind of list I'm looking for, I could always deepstrike the whole mess if I needed to.

I guess the real lesson for me here is not to take mutilators. In that case, it was rending fodder when it could have been another 7 CSM.

Perhaps it was a matter of it being a small game as well. I've noticed that larger games tend to favor CC somewhat as you just don't have nearly as much room to run away to...

Well he was lucky in his power rolls but besides that your actually a bit off thinking you can out pace them with boltguns. DA have an 18" range and can battle focus with a reroll from fleet after shooting from 18" meaning you will almost never get any of the 20 within double tap range but should get all within single tap. So 20 shots yields 14 hits and ~10 wounds for 5 dead though with fortune it is only 2.5 AND our ignoring th fact that they will kill 5 with that BS blade storm before you get to shoot half the time meaning it can be 15 single taps for 10 hits ~6 wounds and 3 dead before fortune. Its actually really sad but the CSM lose the battle of attrition every time! You are also making them cost 15 now not 13 id you keep the weapon.


I Urge you to play the new eldar if you doubt me. I thought I could win the war of attrition but the new pseudo rend is totally broken IMO. It makes 10 DA with guide able to get 3 auto wounds without saves per volley which is DEVASTATING against elite marines. Bikes and Raptors seem necessary to mitigate builds like this or you will be chasing your tail all game long. BTW his rolls were completely average with guide. Now note he could have taken guide and prescience meaning 2 far-seer can allow 4 squads of DA to auto kill 12 meq a turn without an AS roll.


I will keep trying though, as I already have the army so why not. I just think that there are certain armies that need to be considered so that you don't auto lose when playing them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And I agree with the structural problem except at 750 I need to lose 4 marines just to buy bolters making the match almost harder.

Also his list isn't trash. despite being all over the place none of his units were not worth their points.

If he's killing 3 and you're killing 2.5, you're still winning - he doesn't have as many avengers as you do CSM. I guess this would be something very much in favor of a slaanesh list as volley bolters and FNP would certainly win that matchup.

With Khorne, though, it does appear a different matter. I suppose in this case you'd need to take greater charge of field position. If your opponent has to stay 18" away from you, and you're on the objectives, they necessarily lose the game. Of course, that relies on still having dudes on the board, but there's no possible way that an eldar player can table a CSM player in 2 turns with average rolling. No how.

With average rolling, casualties are still going to be high, though, that's for certain. While that isn't so big of a deal when you can get into close combat after taking said casualties, then it's less of a deal, but if you can't make it into close combat, then yeah, you've got to do something else. Other than JUST close combat, that is.

I bet on larger games where there is less room to maneuver, this problem wouldn't be AS bad. With better field position caused by more minis on the table on your side, this wouldn't be so bad either (if they back straight away from one unit, but don't back straight away from a second unit, that second unit will catch it in close combat). That doesn't mean I'll never play small games with this army, though, where its chief advantages are lessened.

If you can't rely as much on on-table skill, then I guess you'd just need to rely on either more firepower or speed (bolters/plasma guns, or bikes, or DS terminators, or DS oblits, etc.). The question is which one?

Dire Avengers have 18" range on their weapons though, so they'll literally never be within rapid fire range until they run out of table to back away to.

I suppose another way around this is to attempt to cover weaknesses, rather than promoting strengths. I mean, I suppose there's probably a great deal of diminishing return on proper berzerkers. Once you're already better at close combat than something, how much better-er do you really need to be?

I mean, I could always have the core of my army be something more like...

Huron

20x CSM - MoK, IoW, vets, 2x plasma guns, champ with fist
20x CSM - MoK, IoW, vets, 2x plasma guns, champ with fist

In that case, I have -1A, -1WS, and fearless gets dropped to Ld10 (but there's still fearless where there's huron or a lord, or whatever), but I gain vets and I gain 20 bolter shots, and I gain a pair of plasma guns. For all that, I also gain 25 points back. It seems like a way to still dominate practically everything in close combat while also being a bit more well-rounded, getting a bit of anti-heavy-hitters power and having the option not to NEED to engage in close combat.

And, over a pair of squads, it also frees up 50 points to make support options better. Which ones to take, though...

I loved your battle report- both termies and zerkers are widely considered overcosted and outdated. In the numbers you ran, with the fearless termies, good infiltrate and the focus on taking first blood without giving an easy one this list is a strong counter to alot of prime lists at the moment (imo). Generally its gonna do really well in kill point and relic and your always gonna have the edge on secondaries.

What this list does show is how good our lords are. Particularly that aobf vet mok lord (imo the only thing that really feels khornie in our dex). TBH im out of love with zerkers- you pay for stuff that looks nice on paper but just never seems to hit the mark in games- id cut the fearless, the ws and the furious charge and use the points elsewhere. Because: the fearless: you shouldnt lose combat to often and when you do the ld9 is not so bad, the ws: its great and is probably more there to deflect hits rather than help you make them when you consider the votlw and i just feel that with 18-20 meq wounds are pretty hard to do with a 3+ so you can live without it, the furious charge- its not what it once was- i dono it can be so hard to set up- id possibly run one squad of csm mok to set up an assault and a squad of zerkers running nearby to counter assault if need be. Add to that your marine unit can take plasma guns, rapid fire and then tap an overwatch if anyone is brave enough to charge em and i think the vanilla mok marine is a fantastic buy.

I think the reason the list works is because even tho its a t4 power armour list there is some variation with the "scary" termies that distract opponents . With that in mind i think including some bikes mobility, t5, relentless spec weps, + cover saves is gonna make a improvement and diversity to your list (it might also help you set up some engagements or catch the super fast stuff).

The infiltrate and character placement is still an issue- id suggest using a conga line with the csm troops to try and position near the important infiltrating units without them actually being in that squad and then hoping your lords can catch up. Still a real challenge.

I dont think you can really make a csm list and think about the well how am i gonna beat 3 nightscythes and 2 heldrakes- id worry more about all comers and just take the loss.

Huron
Juggerlord aobf vet ect

10 termies MoK, IoW, champ with fist, 6x combi-meltas, chainfist

20x CSM - MoK, IoW, vets, 2x plasma guns, champ with fist
20x CSM - MoK, IoW, vets, 2x plasma guns, champ with fist

6 bikes 2 plasma guns mok champ has p.axe (bikes beat raptors in 6e imo- i know its not 15 but it doesnt need to be with a lord+aobf)

I havent run the points but i think that should b pretty close if not over. If there are any left over points id hit the csm up with +1 cc wep or even think about turning one squad into bezerkers

Hokay! Good luck! looking foward to more reports

 Ailaros wrote:
If he's killing 3 and you're killing 2.5, you're still winning - he doesn't have as many avengers as you do CSM. I guess this would be something very much in favor of a slaanesh list as volley bolters and FNP would certainly win that matchup.

With Khorne, though, it does appear a different matter. I suppose in this case you'd need to take greater charge of field position. If your opponent has to stay 18" away from you, and you're on the objectives, they necessarily lose the game. Of course, that relies on still having dudes on the board, but there's no possible way that an eldar player can table a CSM player in 2 turns with average rolling. No how.

It was 3 eldar turns and yes their very much is a way for eldar to kill 27 PA dudes in 3 turns. How? Easy 10 DA with guide alone as I stated get 3 rends and force 6 saves in addition a turn, thats 5 dead a turn or 15 in three rounds of shooting that leaves 11 guys and fabius to 5 spiders, 5 hawks, 5 rangers 10 guardians and 3 shining spears over 3 turns and you seriously don't see how its possible? Granted he rolled fortune and doom but you can just as easily default a seer to have prescience, guide and psychic shriek with out even rolling on a table. More then enough to makes it doable in 3 turns.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ailaros wrote:
I suppose another way around this is to attempt to cover weaknesses, rather than promoting strengths. I mean, I suppose there's probably a great deal of diminishing return on proper berzerkers. Once you're already better at close combat than something, how much better-er do you really need to be?

I mean, I could always have the core of my army be something more like...

Huron

20x CSM - MoK, IoW, vets, 2x plasma guns, champ with fist
20x CSM - MoK, IoW, vets, 2x plasma guns, champ with fist

In that case, I have -1A, -1WS, and fearless gets dropped to Ld10 (but there's still fearless where there's huron or a lord, or whatever), but I gain vets and I gain 20 bolter shots, and I gain a pair of plasma guns. For all that, I also gain 25 points back. It seems like a way to still dominate practically everything in close combat while also being a bit more well-rounded, getting a bit of anti-heavy-hitters power and having the option not to NEED to engage in close combat.

And, over a pair of squads, it also frees up 50 points to make support options better. Which ones to take, though...

This is what I came to months ago as a result of play tests. You slowly drop the Khorne and combat factor for the much more consistent shooting factor. Why not purchase Noise marines with sonic blasters? Huron can infiltrate them dead center so they can unload turn 1, they are fearless and most importantly they strike first in HTH, your above units are 395, 20 sonic blaster marines are 400 and will win the fire fight every time forcing the khorne unit toward them. Drop 2 NM and buy an IoE and now you are even on cost and it really gets one sided.

Well, it's not even a matter of shooting being more consistent. After all, the IoW does a lot to close that gap.

It's more a question of should I spend all of my time worrying about what will kill berzerkers or berzerker-esque models and trust that with little more than FC and an extra attack, I've already got more than enough close combat with all those CSM.

But it's not just the proverbial three helldrakes I'm worried about, though. There are things that can beat up a big PA squad pretty bad, like termies assaulting out of a land raider or stormraven, certain monstrous creatures (especially the kind that attack very quickly), certain beatsticks (especially characters with a 2+ and EW) and, yes, those occasional faster-than you armies that can actually muster enough firepower (I'd actually be a fair bit more worried about venom spam than dire avenger spam myself).

I played power blobs enough to see the occasional army that could just hard counter a foot horde, especially one with relatively few models like this. The infiltration will give me a pretty sizable field presence advantage, which I think can cover a lot of the problems... but not all of them.

I do kind of like the idea of bikes to handle this, the more I think about it, mostly because it combines shooting and close combat nicely. I guess the problem is that they ARE still PA guys. I know raptors are as well, but my brief interest in them is already fading, in part for this very reason.

Anything that's going to be good against my CSM are likely also going to be good against anything else that has a 3+. I do sort of like the idea of a blind fury bike lord, though. If only it weren't a single helldrake or a volley of said boogeymen shuricats away from just plonking themselves down in the dirt.

Unless, of course, that saturation is going to be super useful for a particular reason.