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As long as it stays on topic and polite, there's no need for that.

Occasional suggestions/warning to do just that seem to be doing OK.

And now that we have some additional clarification as to the "WHY" behind it all, I'm guessing it will be even easier to avoid any unpleasantness.

Dead Blue Clown wrote:
But then, why wouldn't I just keep quiet in the first place?

Because you want to sell books.

Dead Blue Clown wrote:
But the sales figures prove you wrong, as do our royalty cheques - now, I'm still not happy about the hardbacks

Why? You yourself say your checks are in larger amounts. Presumably, having book after book on the NYT Best Seller List helps grow your readership. I mean, I guess the checks would be larger if the folks who are still reading your books are paying a lot more for them. But what happens when the number of customers starts to dwindle rather than increase?

Dead Blue Clown wrote:
but I'm not going to pretend they're killing BL because 3 people on Dakka Dakka prefer to call me an idiot and a liar than accept a tedious fact as truth because it doesn't match their uninformed guesses.

If you actually read this thread, you will find a few more than three people upset about BL's recent strategy. And they're upset about more than a change in the release schedule. Everyone I know in person who was reading the HH series has pretty much stopped. Same goes for a lot of the people who care enough about the HH series to post in this thread. And it's not because the writing has tanked or there are no more interesting stories to tell. So what does that leave?

Dead Blue Clown wrote:
Far easier, and far wiser, to stay quiet in the first place.

I quite agree. There is an irreducible conflict of interest between consumers and the companies trying to sell them things. Best leave papering that over to marketing.

My group continues to read all of the HH books as they come out. Then again, all 7 of us have tablets on which we enjoy reading them, so the format change hasn't been a big deal at all.

Again, hallelujah for the ability to reclaim space

 cincydooley wrote:
all 7 of us have tablets on which we enjoy reading them, so the format change hasn't been a big deal at all

Yep, this keeps coming up ITT -- jah-joshua regularly chimes in with that point. If print is more costly by comparison, why not market it as a luxury format by creating "collector editions" or slightly larger paperbacks and jacking up prices? Then again, the "hardback edition" ebooks (lolwut) are still pricey ... seems the same as the cost of the trade paperback, right? Same goes for the "enhanced edition" ebooks.

 Manchu wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
all 7 of us have tablets on which we enjoy reading them, so the format change hasn't been a big deal at all

Yep, this keeps coming up ITT -- jah-joshua regularly chimes in with that point. If print is more costly by comparison, why not market it as a luxury format by creating "collector editions" or slightly larger paperbacks and jacking up prices? Then again, the "hardback edition" ebooks (lolwut) are still pricey ... seems the same as the cost of the trade paperback, right? Same goes for the "enhanced edition" ebooks.

I hate to beat the dead horse, but all the BLs release schedule and pricing structure does now is reflect the whole of the publishing industry.

I mean, I just bought digital copies of the new Chuck Klosterman and Chris Kyle books, and each of those was $12.99.

We hear a lot of doom and gloom about publishing and bookselling but where is the evidence that there is less consumer demand for fiction? Is this not the era of book-driven media power houses, from Lord of the Rings through Harry Potter to Twilight and Hunger Games and many others? There is a healthy market for this stuff. Of course the increasing prevalence of mobile platforms is shaping that market but let's not just buy into publishers playing the victim card.

As the digital market develops, publishers are capitalizing on the opportunity to reduce costs and increase price. You don't have to make your living writing pulp scifi to figure that out. Read the news: It's not just book selling chains going under. There's fierce price competition and a strong and largely successful marketing push to convince consumers that digital books should not cost less than print books. For crying out loud, Apple is currently embroiled in anti-trust litigation for its price-fixing conspiracy with major publishing houses.

The idea that BL is just aligning itself with "the realities of the publishing industry" is not the full story, if you ask me. For example, if I want a digital copy of a new Star Wars novel, I don't have to get it from the Del Ray website. No, what's driving BL is much closer to home. Think about it: insipid "collector's editions," a preference for exclusivity over the retail market, and seeming indifference to consumer price sensitivity. BL is developing much more along the lines of its parent company rather than this nebulous, monolithic concept of "the publishing industry."

 Manchu wrote:

Dead Blue Clown wrote:
But then, why wouldn't I just keep quiet in the first place?

Because you want to sell books.

I refer you to this, which I already covered in my last post:

"People never really seem to grasp just how insignificantly tiny the vocal minority of forum voices really are. If I was posting on here or Facebook to justify BL's actions and "save" a handful of potential sales... I mean, I literally can't even imagine a world where that would be true. It's so disheartening when people take communication and turn it into marketing, or believe everything is so base and ugly. But even if it was those things, assuming it would make any difference at all to sales is just madness. Far easier, and far wiser, to stay quiet in the first place. Dan never says a word, and his sales are doing fine. There's never, ever any need (or desire) to bounce onto a forum and try to "save" your sales or justify your publisher's actions to the handful of people that will see it. That's just nonsense. It staggeringly misunderstands the scale of it all. "

You had your fun imagining nonsense reasons for why I post. I think it might be cool if you stopped it now, especially when you're directly calling me a liar. I explained, clearly, that your accusations for why I reply/post are nonsense. If the italic text is still somehow a fabrication you just can't accept, that's your call, but you're straying into personal attack territory.

 Manchu wrote:
The idea that BL is just aligning itself with "the realities of the publishing industry" is not the full story, if you ask me.

Of course it's not the full story. It's a significant part of the story, and no amount of denial will change the fact that the entire publishing industry is switching to trade paperbacks over mass-market. But I told you the rest of the story, too: it makes them a lot of money in a struggling industry, and it makes them a lot more money than they made previously. Is there some thrilling conspiracy you need to be true, dude? Is there some reason the banal and obvious truths just aren't enough? Because this is getting ridiculous.

@Manchu

You know Baen only does in house ebooks right? One of, if not the largest, Sci-Fi publishers in the business sells on their website only for Ebooks. But yeah, BL isn't lining up with the Industry.

Honestly I still see these books sell. I still talk to people reading them. Guess what, they didn't even notice the transition except that there was a bit of a gap between releases. We ARE a very small minority. And even in our small minority there are a bunch of people (myself included) who still purchase and read. You need to stop pushing your personal opinion as fact.

Manchu, if you'd like to get in on this whole "digital books fad" I'll gladly mail you one of my old kindles. You can store tons of books on it and its only a half inch thick!

It's almost like something from start trek!

Everyone you know stopped reading Horus Heresy?
Unless you have just two friends ,I call Shinanigins on this.
Why are you busting DBC's balls does he come to your job and knock the broom out of your hand?

There are still plenty of bestselling authors like Carrie Vaughn and Rob Thurman who only see release in paperback. The industry is constantly trying to "switch" into a new format to raise the price. Remember the new, Larger-Edition mmpbs from a few years ago that were an inch taller and $2 more expensive? Have you seen the new Walmart-sized mmpbs? This is just standard practice. The big publishers have switched all their lit fiction and required reading to trades despite having a near-captive audience and rock-steady sales. It is about money, yes, especially short-term greedy thinking. You can defend it all you want, but it is still just another action by another company trying to take advantage of loyal customers.

I'll believe it really is the only way to keep publishing when I see the romance section go all-trade paperback.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eisenhorn wrote:
Everyone you know stopped reading Horus Heresy?
Unless you have just two friends ,I call Shinanigins on this.
Why are you busting DBC's balls does he come to your job and knock the broom out of your hand?

Everyone I know who cared about the HH also stopped reading. Local stores also aren't selling them as well. Heck, just look at how many fewer HH discussions there are on all sci fi fandom sites. Compare the number of recent threads about the Heresy to the number that popped up when 1000 Suns and Prospero Burns came out. Are you suggesting that huge numbers of people are buying these books but just no longer feel like talking about them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:
Manchu, if you'd like to get in on this whole "digital books fad" I'll gladly mail you one of my old kindles. You can store tons of books on it and its only a half inch thick!

It's almost like something from start trek!

I'll take that challenge. A free kindle would really open up a lot of digital doors...

 Manchu wrote:
Presumably, having book after book on the NYT Best Seller List helps grow your readership. I mean, I guess the checks would be larger if the folks who are still reading your books are paying a lot more for them. But what happens when the number of customers starts to dwindle rather than increase?

We have the template GW uses. You start shifting books over more and more to exclusively available only through GW official outlets (BL site, GW stores and website) so they can keep 100% of the profits combined with instituting policies penalizing retailers who want to sell your stuff used.

 Hulksmash wrote:
@Manchu

You know Baen only does in house ebooks right? One of, if not the largest, Sci-Fi publishers in the business sells on their website only for Ebooks. But yeah, BL isn't lining up with the Industry.

Baen, as in the Baen Free Library? Where is the Black Library Free Library?

Besides, you know that Baen has a very strong political bent to their output (and has for years now) which ensures that they have a very loyal core following, some of whom loudly distrust other publishers for political reasons and will only buy SF from Baen, right?

Dead Blue Clown wrote:
you're straying into personal attack territory

By that standard, you've "directly called" me ignorant and insignificant. My reaction to your take on BL doesn't come down to calling you a liar -- which is a lame bit of rhetorical gymnastics, mind. It comes down to me not finding your arguments convincing/taking your financial interest into account. I'm not sure why you're determined to see this as a personal issue. What do I need to do, post a pic of all the books I've purchased with your name on them -- going back to Werewolf: The Apocalypse? To zoom back into the on-topic discussion: can you talk more about why you're still mad about the hardcover releases when you're making more money?

Dead Blue Clown wrote:
Is there some thrilling conspiracy you need to be true, dude?

LOL and now I'm a conspiracy theorist ... just more ad hominem. What exactly do you think my conspiracy theory is?

To be clear, my thesis is pretty simple: BL is much more in line with its parent company GW than an industry as vast and diverse as publishing generally. A publisher that had just gotten not one but many books on the NYT Best Seller List (and reliably for that matter) was not saved from the brink by jacking up prices on reformatted books. Again, BL's interests are not the same as its customers. There's nothing in it for me in a deal where I get the same quality and quantity of fiction for double the price.

I am not saying and have not said that no one should buy books from BL anymore. As I have posted ITT, I recently bought Chris Wraight's Blood of Asaheim (EDIT: oh and I forgot I also bought the web exclusive Shadowsun novella) and will probably spring for Unremembered Empire when it comes out. But gone are the days when I'll pick up every HH book, regardless of who writes it and what I've heard about it. It's no more personal for me than it is for BL.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
There are still plenty of bestselling authors like Carrie Vaughn and Rob Thurman who only see release in paperback. The industry is constantly trying to "switch" into a new format to raise the price. Remember the new, Larger-Edition mmpbs from a few years ago that were an inch taller and $2 more expensive? Have you seen the new Walmart-sized mmpbs? This is just standard practice. The big publishers have switched all their lit fiction and required reading to trades despite having a near-captive audience and rock-steady sales. It is about money, yes, especially short-term greedy thinking. You can defend it all you want, but it is still just another action by another company trying to take advantage of loyal customers.

I'll believe it really is the only way to keep publishing when I see the romance section go all-trade paperback.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Eisenhorn wrote:
Everyone you know stopped reading Horus Heresy?
Unless you have just two friends ,I call Shinanigins on this.
Why are you busting DBC's balls does he come to your job and knock the broom out of your hand?

Everyone I know who cared about the HH also stopped reading. Local stores also aren't selling them as well. Heck, just look at how many fewer HH discussions there are on all sci fi fandom sites. Compare the number of recent threads about the Heresy to the number that popped up when 1000 Suns and Prospero Burns came out. Are you suggesting that huge numbers of people are buying these books but just no longer feel like talking about them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cincydooley wrote:
Manchu, if you'd like to get in on this whole "digital books fad" I'll gladly mail you one of my old kindles. You can store tons of books on it and its only a half inch thick!

It's almost like something from start trek!

I'll take that challenge. A free kindle would really open up a lot of digital doors...

PM me your address. I'm open to anyone willing to jump on digital and realize the joys of it.

 cincydooley wrote:
Manchu, if you'd like to get in on this whole "digital books fad" I'll gladly mail you one of my old kindles.

Thanks -- but I have a kindle and a Nexus 7.

PM sent.

I can finally afford to enter the digital age!

 Manchu wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Manchu, if you'd like to get in on this whole "digital books fad" I'll gladly mail you one of my old kindles.

Thanks -- but I have a kindle and a Nexus 7.

Then I have to ask: why do you care if they move to trade paperback? Are you still purchasing hard copies of the novels?

Two reasons: (1) yeah, I prefer print and (2) since the only difference is format and not price, preference takes priority.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
PM sent.

I can finally afford to enter the digital age!

Don't do it! It's a trap!

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
There are still plenty of bestselling authors like Carrie Vaughn and Rob Thurman who only see release in paperback. The industry is constantly trying to "switch" into a new format to raise the price. Remember the new, Larger-Edition mmpbs from a few years ago that were an inch taller and $2 more expensive? Have you seen the new Walmart-sized mmpbs? This is just standard practice. The big publishers have switched all their lit fiction and required reading to trades despite having a near-captive audience and rock-steady sales. It is about money, yes, especially short-term greedy thinking. You can defend it all you want, but it is still just another action by another company trying to take advantage of loyal customers.

I'll believe it really is the only way to keep publishing when I see the romance section go all-trade paperback.

This is kind of what I mean. No one's saying it's the only way to keep publishing. But it's what a collapsing (truly, honestly collapsing) physical book trade is doing to sustain itself. At no point is anyone here saying it's wise. At no point is anyone saying it's virtuous. At no point is anyone defending it. They're just pointing out that it's happening, and a few anecdotal stories about how it's killing the Heresy series are essentially nonsense.

Don't take an explanation of what's happening as some spirited defence or rampart-breaking need to suddenly tow a company line I'm usually in trouble for breaking. I'd have just stayed silent and not bothered answering if there was a negative answer to give.

 Manchu wrote:
It comes down to me not finding your arguments convincing/taking your financial interest into account.

I'm not sure I know what you mean. I haven't shared many opinions in this thread, really. It's not my job to convince you, and my opinions are limited to "It's not the end of the world, but I agree it sucks for some folks". Beyond that, I'm happy enough just telling you the truth. I once explained (on 3++) how GW views Forge World's "legality". No one believed me. It didn't matter that it was the truth, in excruciating detail, as explained to me by dozens of HQ staff, including several department managers and one of the board of directors. Because it didn't match what a few fans believed from memes and guesses, they believed I was wrong, or that I must've had an agenda.

 Manchu wrote:
To zoom back into the on-topic discussion: can you talk more about why you're still mad about the hardcover releases when you're making more money?

Some, but not all. Even for someone with my dubious (at best) sense of professionalism, some of them are just behind-the-scenes issues that aren't really cool to discuss beyond closed doors. Suffice to say, I'd never, ever throw abuse at anyone that wanted to wait for the paperbacks, or thought the hardbacks were too expensive. Collector's Editions aren't for everyone, and I'd never suggest otherwise.

But I can share a few personal perspectives, sure. Firstly, there's the fact that money doesn't really motivate me to that degree, and while there was a sea change in my budgeting once Shakes came along last year, I still don't ever want to be in a situation where I write something "for money", so to speak. I did that once with a short story years ago, and I still hate the fact it exists. (The good reviews don't help, no.).

Secondly (and very selfishly) it's annoying in terms of career-ness, because getting to claim you're a NYT bestseller is basically author/publishing gold. I remember feeling like an absolute idiot at the Heresy meeting, when everyone else at the table looked at me like I'd just peed my jeans and started drooling, because I said "I'd rather hit the bestseller list than make more money." Hitting that list means more to me than making more money on a title, but because of the new release system everything's tracked differently. GW/BL and the authors make more money, but it screws any chance of hitting the NYT list since you're not going through traditional sales channels. In a moment of severely irritating timing, the switch to hardback came just before Betrayer, too. Which meant I was the only one on the team only to hit the list once, despite Betrayer's sales absolutely blowing most other HH novels' figures out of the water. But like I said, that's just lame, selfish personal stuff, and you could legitimately argue that "Grow up, Aaron" is the best reply to it.

 Manchu wrote:
To be clear, my thesis is pretty simple: BL is much more in line with its parent company GW than an industry as vast and diverse as publishing generally. A publisher that had just gotten not one but many books on the NYT Best Seller List (and reliably for that matter) was not saved from the brink by jacking up prices on reformatted books. Again, BL's interests are not the same as its customers. There's nothing in it for me in a deal where I get the same quality and quantity of fiction for double the price.

Then we're not even arguing at all, because I agree with that thesis, as presented there in those terms. Note, however, I never said BL were saved from the brink - I wasn't justifying it in any terms like that. Just that in addition to them doing it to make more money (because business, and because duh), they're basically adopting the flailing book trade's new traditions. However, I'll also note that BL is more in line with GW now (as in, the last 6-12 months) than it was before, when it was essentially aligned entirely with the book trade. It was the book trade's complete splatter-collapse that sealed the deal, though.

.. spookily timed in some ways...


.. now when "Talon of Horus" is late and doesn't meet deadlines all those of you who posted here are to blame yes !?

Looking good there, I was especially impressed with Mr. Hinks warrior priest and more furry errrr.. I mean wolfy work from Mr. Wraight is something I'm very pleased about.

Again Bl's art director ...? .... person who sorts out the covers anyway, deserves much kudos.

A gigantic step away from the Space Marine battle covers, here's hoping we won't see any of those again.

 BrookM wrote:
A gigantic step away from the Space Marine battle covers, here's hoping we won't see any of those again.

If you were any other man I'd kill you where you stand ... well.. sit or slump disinterestedly !



Strokes for folks, I liked the nightmarish aspect that Mr. Sullivan brings to those covers but I can totally understand how others can be wrong could be left cold by it.

The Scars artwork was previewed a while back, here's the whole piece again

Why is it one suspects "The Legion divided" may refer to the Alpha Legion, rather than the Scars...? Although, that said, there's the distinct image of White Scars fighting amongst themselves there.

I'm disappointed again by the White Scars cover, however. The cover for Scars and Brotherhood of the Storm have both been disappointing. The Talon of Horus looks great though. The Stormcaller cover looks good, but appears oddly proportioned. Almost, dare I say it, chibi.

I'd still like to find out BL's reasoning for changing the Coming Soon section to 1-2 weeks notice, though...

I've also noticed the opposite to the idea people don't listen to AD-B: due to his position as a particularly-popular BL author, I've found (the vast majority of) people are always paying attention to and agreeing with his posts, as they carry more credibility; particular in background discussions. For example, now most people dismiss the Word Bearer's conjecture about the missing legions/Ultramarines in The First Heretic.

 reds8n wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
A gigantic step away from the Space Marine battle covers, here's hoping we won't see any of those again.

If you were any other man I'd kill you where you stand ... well.. sit or slump disinterestedly !

My word, that is most stern indeed!

They were perhaps a bit too different from the established look and feel of 40k with their daemonic helmet grills and their strange bolter designs.

But as I say, never judge a book by its cover, rather by its contents. I own most of them and actually enjoyed two of them.

I once explained (on 3++) how GW views Forge World's "legality". No one believed me. It didn't matter that it was the truth, in excruciating detail, as explained to me by dozens of HQ staff, including several department managers and one of the board of directors. Because it didn't match what a few fans believed from memes and guesses, they believed I was wrong, or that I must've had an agenda.

I know it's off-topic but I'd be curious to hear about that, since I've never seen this before and I'm always curious to know how GW themselves view this whole Forge World thing...since they're apparently content to keep silent about it and let us argue with each other over it non-stop.

I can see what you mean about the weapon/armour designs.

Personally I liked the twisted kind of techno organicesque look he gave/gives stuff, at times.

Also captured the otherwordliness of the xenos or elves etc well too but MMV of course.

One assumes that the Scars book will, in some fashion or other, pick up upon some of the ideas introduced earlier in the series and touched upon again in some of the recent audio dramas, especially with regards to split or misplaced loyalties.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
@Manchu

You know Baen only does in house ebooks right? One of, if not the largest, Sci-Fi publishers in the business sells on their website only for Ebooks. But yeah, BL isn't lining up with the Industry.

Baen, as in the Baen Free Library? Where is the Black Library Free Library?

Besides, you know that Baen has a very strong political bent to their output (and has for years now) which ensures that they have a very loyal core following, some of whom loudly distrust other publishers for political reasons and will only buy SF from Baen, right?

I'm aware of their political bent. But I'm also aware of how open Baen is to new authors. But that's really beside the point. Baen sells ebooks exclusively through their site. Yes, they have a free library of some of their older titles or titles that begin large series but it's by no means enormous. The point was that BL selling all Ebooks in house isn't unheard of. Baen even has "Advanced Reader Copies" that come out several months before general release and have a cost close to "hardback" ebooks which drops upon general release. Manchu said that the publishing industry wasn't doing what BL was doing. I just pointed out that there is an element similar to what GW puts out that has been doing what GW does for years now.

Some nice covers there, especially the Njal and Abaddon ones.