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 judgedoug wrote:

Second, the miniatures are really not that good.

In your opinion. I like the majority of what I've seen, and what I don't like, I feel I can easily modify via third party parts (which is an aspect of the hobby I enjoy).

Third, the rules are really not that good.

Again, in your opinion. I am liking what I am seeing. I haven't had any practice games yet (have you?), but if there is something I'm not liking, I'll be able to provide feedback since many of the rules are still in beta. Are they perfect? Probably not, I have yet to find a game that is (even Malifaux, my favorite game, has rules that I don't particularly care for).

tl:dr: Your opinions are not facts. Nor are they shared by everyone.

For the record, here's my post about starting a different thread:

 Manchu wrote:
Guys, let's please keep it on-topic. If you want to start a thread comparing miniatures across companies, please start one in Dakka Discussion. Thanks.

It was in response to someone posting a ton of huge images of non-MEdge miniatures in the MEdge N&R thread. This has really been blown out of proportion, especially considering users have not stopped or been stopped from criticising MEdge in the N&R thread.

 MajorTom11 wrote:
And your post reads like 'I honestly believe I get to impose my tastes and ideas on others and am extremely confused and angry when people don't fall in line. I am super special and I know better than anyone else'.

And just a general statement here:

Like it, hate it. It doesn't matter, you do what you want. But when you start stating your opinions as fact, whether positive or negative, you become completely useless to discuss anything with. White Knights and Haters are entrenched and toxic to any real conversation. Your mind is made up, that's cool, but if you get a bug up your bonnet that people don't see it your way as if that is offensive in and of itself, then you have issues, whoever you are.

The idea that these threads have been overly moderated is a joke. You are confused, moderation means taking moderating actions via the powers only mods have. It means suspending and banning people, erasing offensive posts and such. No one was moderated, not one post has been removed, anywhere. What you have is a bunch of mods speaking as themselves as consumers just like anyone else. I know that a lot of people can't handle that, Mods being people with opinions and an interest in the hobby, but there you are. You can say that so many mods make you uncomfortable, especially if you really believe that they are just waiting to ban you the second you peep. I get that, really. But the FACT is that it never happened, and never will. They have been hands off to the point of it being a mistake in my opinion, because some of you surely broke the rules and were real donkey-caves at some points. So... don't spin this yarn you got moderated to death the entire time, because you absolutely, positively didn't.

The idea that the conversation has been sanitized to be universally positive and all criticism stamped out is very demonstrably false. All you have to do is read. Yes, one mod answered defensively of the product many times and rebutted other peoples opinions with his own. A lot. But argueing/debating is not moderating. The tone of things has been overwhelmingly crappy precisely because SAS/Mods took the high road and let from what I can see 8-10 people make a daily hobby of crapping on this venture while pretending to be 'helping' - without doing anything in response but giving polite responses and doing their best to address the things they could, and admitting they can't change the things they can't. It's not what some of you wanted to hear, but just because they can't accommodate you doesn't mean they are gakking on you or not hearing you. They may not be able to change something, they may not agree with you at all. That is something they are allowed to do btw, not agree with you personally. It doesn't make them jerks. If they listened and considered that is pretty good already if you ask me.

So honestly, you guys should have every right to like this, or not. You have every right to speak for yourselves within the general, universal rules of this site. What you shouldn't be allowed to do, in my opinion, is turn your opinions into facts and repeatedly warp the conversation in a malicious manner by claiming to be victims when you are anything but.

My 2 cents.

Moving onto happier things, hey, a heck of a lot of pledges past 24hrs! Looking like full bases may happen, and that for me was one of the things I really didn't care for. I think that will be a big help to the game and for modellers, and I certainly think the opportunities for making cool poses that leverage the HIPS plastic will explode once you have base scenery options to play off of... A Hunter busting through a wall, Angels GS'd to be flowing between boulders and whatnot with a little GS work. Could be very cool indeed IMHO.

I think I'd like to put this on a large placard and start using it to install order about these parts...

Gather around kiddies and let me expand your minds...


A private forum isn't a democracy, a private forum is one of those islands ruled over by someone in aviator shades, big hat and far too many medals, it can be a great place or a terrible place, depending on how El Presidente's police carry out the law (and the suggestion that the mods on this forum are heavy handed is absolutely Grade A fething laughable, they are an exceptionally tolerant and decent bunch, the whining in this thread about their bias and draconian behavior is total bollocks). Now this privately owned island belongs to someone, well, a couple of someones, and they've decided to go into business, so they put up some billboards.

That's entirely their prerogative, and if you are the sort of delicate flower who can't possibly cope with that because your sensitive (and deluded) brain is under the impression that you're offense at someone advertising their wares on THEIR OWN WEBSITE causes you to get the vapors, well I do declare that you should ship your arse elsewhere...

Similarly, bitching that you don't like this and that about the content is fine, but finding yourself surprised that your personal opinion isn't treated as gospel, or that your method of expression is dismissed for the bleating it is, leaves noone to blame but yourselves.



This just in, Dakka is making a game, Dakka is also allowing you to post your criticisms on Dakka, and you're still complaining that Dakka isn't doing enough for you to 'express yourself' because of the way in which you're being asked to voice your criticisms...

So the answer does really point to it's self...

MeanGreenStompa you have shown me the light! Critique is bad! GW is not overpriced, their designs are not lackluster, Restic and Finecrap is awesome, Kickstarters delivering 2 years past their promise date is just means were are impatient, And the shoulders and arms designs of the eperians is just misunderstood artistic expressions

You are completely missing the point. You can keep saying people are telling you not to criticize. But you are playing the victim, because you can criticize all you want.

Just have the sense to realize your opinions are not facts, and if you state them as such, you are combative, entrenched and toxic. Don't come to a forum if you aren't willing to entertain that other people may feel differently. Start a blog dude.

Or, be a civil, polite person and put 'I think' in front of stuff and you will probably find your critique is heard, respected and engaged with. You can criticize til you are blue in the face. Forcing your conclusions on everyone without recourse is not critique, it is bullying and self centered garbage.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
MeanGreenStompa you have shown me the light! Critique is bad! GW is not overpriced, their designs are not lackluster, Restic and Finecrap is awesome, Kickstarters delivering 2 years past their promise date is just means were are impatient, And the shoulders and arms designs of the eperians is just misunderstood artistic expressions

No, critique is fine, personal opinions stated as 'truth' is being a gakker. Cheerleading for a downfall and fluttering your fan and sneering is also being a gakker. Several people in this thread read like petulant gakkers.

This isn't GW's forum, GW, when it had a forum, tolerated no 'critique' at all and baned you if you tried it. Dakka is not some draconian regime, it's about as tolerant a forum as I've ever found online, that's why I remain here when I've long ago left others.

GW's designs aren't all lackluster, I personally believe most of their designs are bloody great.

I don't like the shoulders on the Eperians, but once I saw them painted in a non-metallic that didn't draw the eye, I disliked them a whole lot less. And whilst we're comparing to GW, the Catachans are, in my opinion, a good deal worse. For a company starting up and launching a boxed set, I think Medge is looking very good and look forward to seeing some factions that appeal to me personally in the future.

I was going to post a reply to you Judgedoug but there is really no point.

Criticise away........

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

No, critique is fine, personal opinions stated as 'truth' is being a gakker. Cheerleading for a downfall and fluttering your fan and sneering is also being a gakker. Several people in this thread read like petulant gakkers.

GakkerGakker

I think people feel more open to all out flaming the project because they feel like they own a small part of it "Oh I post on Dakka, I totally have a say in this!" despite what their views on the Modding in the official thread.

I also think that it looks like MEdge got a lot more criticism that it actually did because it seems to be the same names repeating the same things over and over across multiple pages.

I'm personally looking forward to this little group putting the perfect game together, with the perfect sculpts and perfect, completely original background

Well done to the SAS staffers for their adult responses and reasoning. That is how companies should react to negative things online!

 MajorTom11 wrote:
And your post reads like 'I honestly believe I get to impose my tastes and ideas on others and am extremely confused and angry when people don't fall in line. I am super special and I know better than anyone else'.

And just a general statement here:

Like it, hate it. It doesn't matter, you do what you want. But when you start stating your opinions as fact, whether positive or negative, you become completely useless to discuss anything with. White Knights and Haters are entrenched and toxic to any real conversation. Your mind is made up, that's cool, but if you get a bug up your bonnet that people don't see it your way as if that is offensive in and of itself, then you have issues, whoever you are.

Are you responding to my post, or the one I was satirizing that I replied to?
Wait, you are just reiterating the post I quoted: " if you dont like it dont come to this thread to hang gak on it. "



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MajorTom11 wrote:
The idea that these threads have been overly moderated is a joke.

You are correct, this thread has not been; the N&R thread has been, with private PM's sent to members of Dakka telling them not to criticize the game within the N&R thread. So that is not moderation?

 judgedoug wrote:

 MajorTom11 wrote:
And your post reads like 'I honestly believe I get to impose my tastes and ideas on others and am extremely confused and angry when people don't fall in line. I am super special and I know better than anyone else'.

And just a general statement here:

Like it, hate it. It doesn't matter, you do what you want. But when you start stating your opinions as fact, whether positive or negative, you become completely useless to discuss anything with. White Knights and Haters are entrenched and toxic to any real conversation. Your mind is made up, that's cool, but if you get a bug up your bonnet that people don't see it your way as if that is offensive in and of itself, then you have issues, whoever you are.

Are you responding to my post, or the one I was satirizing that I replied to?
Wait, you are just reiterating the post I quoted: " if you dont like it dont come to this thread to hang gak on it. "



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MajorTom11 wrote:
The idea that these threads have been overly moderated is a joke.

You are correct, this thread has not been; the N&R thread has been, with private PM's sent to members of Dakka telling them not to criticize the game within the N&R thread. So that is not moderation?

BS Judgedog. Complete fabrication. Mod participation in a discussion does not equal acts of moderation. If you have insecurities and the tag alone means you feel constantly threatened, that's on you. Your FEELING that you MAYBE have been moderated in this thread is completely subjective and your own. The FACT is that you haven't, nor has anyone else.

Regarding the PM's, I have no real comment on these PM's you say you received, or your interpretation of them. I didn't see so I can't comment. But, even if I take how you interpreted them as 100% correct (which I have some doubts on based on your general interpretations of Mod action as stated), sounds like someone asked you something, you said no, and NO MODERATION actually happened lol, or we wouldn't need vague allusions, you would be able to go 'Right here, in public!' and I would say nothing. If the best you can do is point to 2 posts asking to keep things on topic out of 100 plus pages, with no warnings, bans, suspensions or otherwise going on, then get off it.

The only, thing, the ONLY thing ever said was if you are going to spend 6 weeks harping on 1 model (general 'you') for aesthetic purposes, please move it to a discussion dedicated to that. The main thread is focused on the business of the kickstarter, and really, it shouldn't take a giant intellectual leap to understand that with a project of this size, segregating disucussions a bit so there isn't a 180 page N&R mega-thread that is unfollowable and largely off-topic to the stated purpose of the thread is a good idea. So, you were not asked to censor your taste or opinions, but to create another thread dedicated to that specific type of review and discussion which is exactly what was done, and said thread has been 100% unmoderated to the point I think it was a mistake to be so light handed with some posters at certain times. That is what happened, and it's black and white.

Ironically, the only real attempt to stop criticism I have seen has been by people speaking in the same fashion as you who keep demanding that their own views not be argued with at all.

You: Epirians are bad sculpts and there is no way you could say there are no problems with them. (or something to that effect)
Someone else: Well, actually I like the Epirians!
You: Censorship!!! Moderation!!!

SAS, Dakka and the MODS have all heard your critiques, most of which, if not all, have been perfectly valid and legitimate if you are speaking for yourself and engaged with you in discussion. Nothing you or anyone else wrote has been deleted. No one did anything to you. At all. Or anyone else for that matter. The only people being asked to stop saying something, ironically, is people who say they like it lol.

So, don't confuse people asking you to stop dictating their own opinions, or not requiring your personal approval of their own ideas and thoughts, as saying you can't also have your say. Critique is fine. A gakky ass attitude that is bordering on spam in it's repetitiveness is not.

So, look, I'll write my own critique of things I don't like -

Epirian chaps don't thrill me either. I dislike western motif's in sci-fi though I understand the vibe that was trying to be captured. Oddly, doesn't bother me in the concept art. I am not a big western guy so I am not sure the chaps would have really stuck out to me until mentioned though, strangely.

Upper arms on contractors do have problems in proportions in my opinion, though oddly they are only noticeable at certain angles... it seems to me that the CAD artists had a very 'front/back' focus when working on them, perhaps to the detriment of the side view on them.

Tempest wrist is annoying and I would do some work to fix em on my models.

Hex bases on flyers are distracting for me for cohesiveness, I will just glue the stem to a regular base if there are spares to be had.

And there is my critique. No one will erase it, and just by saying 'in my opinion' I bet it comes off a hell of a lot differently than your versions of 'critique'. I have no problem, and neither does anyone on the staff of Dakka or SAS, with anyone feeling differently either positively or negatively. It's how you are acting and speaking, not your taste that is the problem.

So, in short, get off it with the over moderated and no critique crap, it's bunk and absolutely scientifically, objectively verifiable to be completely untrue to anyone who reads these threads start to finish who understand the difference between a mod participating in a discussion, and an act of moderation (i.e doing something only a mod can do). Otherwise, it's all just people's opinions.

FUNDED! Woo! I for one am super stoked to be part of this!

Congrats SAS!

Yeah, I'm super stoked too . Hit 70K and the last stretch with just a few minutes left to go, and ended up with over 800 backers!

I'm guessing discussion will now / soon end up dividing into different threads in the MEdge section, rather than being consolidated into a single thread in N&R and here. I'd love to discuss more on the rules as the beta is released!

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
MeanGreenStompa you have shown me the light! Critique is bad! GW is not overpriced, their designs are not lackluster, Restic and Finecrap is awesome, Kickstarters delivering 2 years past their promise date is just means were are impatient, And the shoulders and arms designs of the eperians is just misunderstood artistic expressions

No, critique is fine, personal opinions stated as 'truth' is being a gakker. Cheerleading for a downfall and fluttering your fan and sneering is also being a gakker. Several people in this thread read like petulant gakkers.

This isn't GW's forum, GW, when it had a forum, tolerated no 'critique' at all and baned you if you tried it. Dakka is not some draconian regime, it's about as tolerant a forum as I've ever found online, that's why I remain here when I've long ago left others.

GW's designs aren't all lackluster, I personally believe most of their designs are bloody great.

I don't like the shoulders on the Eperians, but once I saw them painted in a non-metallic that didn't draw the eye, I disliked them a whole lot less. And whilst we're comparing to GW, the Catachans are, in my opinion, a good deal worse. For a company starting up and launching a boxed set, I think Medge is looking very good and look forward to seeing some factions that appeal to me personally in the future.

Nobody gets this anymore?
Yes IMHO the Eperians shoulders and arms are wrong and i posted it a few times, but only because SAS doesn't seem to address it, if they would have said "we will look at it and if needed we will do a redesign on it (and the karist wrist)" you wouldn't have seen me repeat it a few times.
There are so many firms who have beautiful and realistic designs (Anvil, Dreamforge, wargames factory etcetera) so if they want to expand the range they have to address these issues. I hope when Medge becomes successful that we will see tanks, hopefully similar to this to separate them from other makers.

And i want Medge to succeed my partner in crime didn't want to pledge, so i have to wait until it hits retail.

And I think that tank looks ridiculous... And I'm a dedicated treadhead.

Something something, something 'the beholder' ... I think those folded manga tanks look like they've already been through a major accident, I imagine them moving by an accordian-like wheezing movement, accompanied by sad hanna barbara music... Still, that's just my opinion on them.


Giving criticism on the arms, or anything, is fine, expecting them to stop and redesign at this stage in the development, when it was made clear early on that the entire thing is basically finished and ready to roll out even prior to the KS, is 'optimistic'.

And these are small details. Frankly once you have your army painted up and ready to play, noone other than the worst of the worst OCD is going to give a flying toss about wrists and so on. These details, highlighted for scrutiny on a screen, aren't going to matter one jot on the tabletop.

These aren't boutique figures, these are figures for a tabletop game, they are lightyears ahead of the clip together stuff we had in several GW editions and, again, this is a fledgling company's first forays into multipart plastics and the aesthetics of the various factions and the way they look now compared to how they're going to look in a couple of years once it's all solidified in 'lore' and the background and factions have found their feet. Give me some pig iron backpacks and headswaps and I'll have those epirians looking the way I want them in a few hours... But I can say precisely the same thing about the Cadians, and GW's had years to get them to my personal specifications!!!!

I forgot to mention i meant on the next iteration or on the next eperian release they should at least consider the critique concerning the epirian arms and the karist akward wrist.

Dreamforge, anvil and wargames factory aren't boutique miniatures either. (only Wargames factory could be considered a "big" company while the others are small). And theirs designs (taste aside) seem to be not anatomically awkward.

I see you are not a fan of the tachikoma style tanks, instant addition to the book of Grudges

I am 200% certain they will man... they may not necessarily agree with the most severity of some people's objections, but certainly, they want to do better every single time. No one is happy a potential customer is unhappy. Just a matter of realizing you can't please everyone, but you should still try

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
I forgot to mention i meant on the next iteration or on the next eperian release they should at least consider the critique concerning the epirian arms and the karist akward wrist.

This. I know it's already too late for the first wave but it's possible that they might be willing to sacrifice aesthetic continuity in favour of doing the job right the next time around.

I just wonder, what in the world makes you two think they aren't listening and will not make improvements next time? They'd have to be mental not to want to improve the marketability of their product. Anyone in business would have to be mental not to.

I completely agree with you, but phrasing it like it is even up for debate when they already 100% confirmed they will be doing this off the bat weeks ago is odd to me. Will the next models be perfect? Probably not to everyone, that's kinda impossible to achieve. BUT certainly they will be looking with redoubled scrutiny at the models when new ones come up, as has been said.

That issue is a non-issue in so far as their intention to consider EVERYTHING that was said, positive and negative.

 MajorTom11 wrote:
I just wonder, what in the world makes you two think they aren't listening and will not make improvements next time?

They deliberately chose not to even make it possible to do so with the Kaddar Nova, the Shadow Walkers and the Epirian Handlers. They could have shown WIPs during the campaign, but they chose to show nothing at all rather than show something early enough that it could be changed before it went to tooling. So far, the strongest evidence that they are willing to listen to criticism is that they'll let you beta test their rules for them, if you paid them for the privilege.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 MajorTom11 wrote:
I just wonder, what in the world makes you two think they aren't listening and will not make improvements next time?

They deliberately chose not to even make it possible to do so with the Kaddar Nova, the Shadow Walkers and the Epirian Handlers. They could have shown WIPs during the campaign, but they chose to show nothing at all rather than show something early enough that it could be changed before it went to tooling. So far, the strongest evidence that they are willing to listen to criticism is that they'll let you beta test their rules for them, if you paid them for the privilege.

See, my impression of the Kaddar Nova/Bot Handler/Shadow Walker was that they were so far along that they couldn't have made any changes, no matter what input from the community. At least not without major delays.

I would have liked to have seen WIPs, but I am sure it was mentioned somewhere that even though they weren't complete they were finished as far as design went, and it was basically behind the scenes production and tooling that had to be completed.

Any changes to the design at this late stage would have slowed things down too much and SAS did not want to do that.

Edit: Ninja'ed by Tibbsy, who said exactly what I was thinking but in much fewer words

I've been thinking about this thread a bit the last few days, and had this question for folks like Alex / Bob. Isn't revealing new releases (even if they are not finished), rather than showing something at an early concept phase and seeking community feedback, how most miniature companies functionally operate?

The company I always think of when I consider this project is Dropzone Commander, who made their game before Kickstarter was really a thing, and just straight up revealed and launched it. People didn't love everything, but they probably did have a higher success rate of how much people liked most sculpts (it helped that they started out in resin, and only went to injection molded starter sets later, so the insane detail was easier to achieve).

Every other major miniatures company I can think of does it this way, too - GW, PP, Wyrd... sure, sometimes you'll get to see a WIP from the latter two, but not for feedback. PP recently released a WIP of a fist from the new troll character warbeast, and everyone assumed it was a Gargantuan since the fist was so huge. They've been criticized for their proportions before of course, but despite that reaction here they released the model without any changes - the WIP was just to tease people that it was coming.

Personally, your sketches Alex haven't necessarily appealed to me more than the models, and looking at the Epirian artwork they were working from, I think it looks just as good. To me, as Tom notes, the models are just the result of doing something extremely hard - injection molded plastic, and being brand new to it. Dreamforge spoiled us a bit with their first efforts, as Mark Mondragon is a demigod - but even with their kits, there are learning curve items, like how many pieces some of the parts had to be broken into.

So, I think maybe some of the difference here is you, Bob, and some others here whose opinions I quite value (cincy, Buzzsaw) see a company that isn't soliciting or listening to feedback... and I see a company that is just dealing with a production method that takes months, and so there is a lot of momentum to the learning curve - things get incorporated, but not immediately like a resin company could (even though most of them don't!) since their molds have a life of something like 20-50 casts and can then be replaced, not 20,000 - 50,000!

Regarding the new models - again, my understanding of the process is, those models are probably already with the toolmaker being analyzed for toolability - look how long there was a delay between Dreamforge showing off models and then getting the plastic parts! So, even if they show WIPs of those (which I would love to see) everything in this box, if it truly will deliver this year as projected, is already too far along to change due to production methods. The mistakes made so far, I simply see as learning curve items due to how hard this process is, and that they will absolutely take the feedback onboard for the future.

So, I think that's where we differ! A few of you guys who I really respect seem to think the company is not listening, but it's more like, a company that is listening but these kinds of corrections will only show up 6+ months down the line. But if they are going to act like any of the major miniature companies out there, WIPs will not be shown to then be changed based on response, but just to tease releases - and behind the scenes, they'll take on the feedback and make adjustments for the best commercial result. Given the reaction, you can be just about 100000000% sure that they will do everything they can to avoid the reaction to the contractors and that single wrist! But there's so much momentum with plastic design, that these improvements (which I think they would have undertaken anyway, but it's underscored by the reaction) will not be visible until models released next year.

I hope that was coherent - I really have been thinking about this a lot, and I think that might explain a bit of the different reactions here... I think we all agree on what can be improved, but the process here is a bit unlike what you see with small indy companies doing small resin casting runs, and much more like the process of the companies doing major miniatures releases and who have a longer development cycle as a result of the method, scale, etc. I'm certain they're taking the feedback onboard, but unfortunately, you'll just have to wait 6 months to see the fruit of that due to the nature of injection molding! Just look how long it's taken Mark at Dreamforge (who I am totally in love with) to get things going on the Shadokesh, as a great example of this (and I do note that he recently showed a render of them, which was awesome and I hope we'll see some renders of future MEdge releases, too).

I think RiTides basically has it right,

everything that showed up in the KS is too far along into the production process to be changed, both because a bunch of cash has already been spent on it, and because production schedules are a thing... they are already working with several plastics manufacturers which will be more tricky than picking a single one just so they can get things done

if you miss your deadline to hand over files, agree to parts breakdowns or whatever you could easily wait many, many months before you reach the top of the queue again

I certainly hope they will take on board some of the criticisms of their design (eg the Karist wrist should have been spotted as a problem),

but I think we have to be prepared for them to stick to their original decisions on others like going for old skool heroic proportions rather than a more modern true scale look

while I prefer true scale/less heroic designs as mainly a painter/collector nowadays, I do admit it's easier to see what's going on at a glance at a distance on a gaming table with heroic stuff....

I see Maelstroms edge as a wargame with minis attached rather than minis with a game attached

(now in both cases the companies will care about everything, but will differ over where sacrifices have to be made to achieve the best overall experience they feel they can deliver)

 RiTides wrote:
I've been thinking about this thread a bit the last few days, and had this question for folks like Alex / Bob. Isn't revealing new releases (even if they are not finished), rather than showing something at an early concept phase and seeking community feedback, how most miniature companies functionally operate?

Yes, it is. But the proof is in the pudding: Dropzone Commander's PHR are interesting, aesthetically pleasing designs, and the fact that they were designed without outside assistance doesn't detract from that. Mantic, on the other hand, makes ugly models with tiny legs and thus does not deserve the same level of trust.

Personally, your sketches Alex haven't necessarily appealed to me more than the models, and looking at the Epirian artwork they were working from, I think it looks just as good.

Noted, but the Epirian Contractor concept art is nine heads tall. The miniature based on that art is something closer to 5.5 heads, so the fact that the concept does not possess the flaws introduced in the translation to a 28mm heroic scale miniature should not be surprising. Mine was intended as much more WYSIWYG concept art of 6.4 heads - like the miniature the proportions are distorted to make the head, hands and feet larger and the arms, legs and torso thicker than they would be in real life, but in a way that doesn't stand out so much as being wrong.

To me, as Tom notes, the models are just the result of doing something extremely hard - injection molded plastic, and being brand new to it.

But they're not. If people were complaining about the resolution of fine detail on the models or that the sides of the models didn't have enough detail, those are complaints that could reasonably be laid at the feet of HIPS. But those are not the things people are complaining about. Being injection-moulded plastic isn't why the Scarecrow and Hunter only have one hand, or why the Epirians' arms are as thick as their legs.

 AlexHolker wrote:

To me, as Tom notes, the models are just the result of doing something extremely hard - injection molded plastic, and being brand new to it.

But they're not. If people were complaining about the resolution of fine detail on the models or that the sides of the models didn't have enough detail, those are complaints that could reasonably be laid at the feet of HIPS. But those are not the things people are complaining about. Being injection-moulded plastic isn't why the Scarecrow and Hunter only have one hand, or why the Epirians' arms are as thick as their legs.

Of course that is why - I'll repost (some of) the considerations for making a model viable in plastic:

• sprue space (hands)
  
• mould draw angles and ease of ejection (hands, arms)
  
• target part count
  
• width of parts
  
• strength of parts
  
• clutch of parts
  
• target number of models on each sprue
  
• ease of assembly
  
• posing flexibility
  
• cross-range compatibility (including with future/unreleased models)
  
• fit to the rules
  
• fit to the fiction
  
• fit to the artwork
  
• price of the sculpt
  
• price of the mould
  
• revision count of the sculpt (and price of subsequent revisions)
  
• sculptor talent
  
• sculptor attitude, motivation and relationship
  
• target price of the model
  
• weight of the sprue
  
• potential rival models in the marketplace (past present and future)
  
• potential compatible models in the marketplace (past present and future)
  
• losing a timed place in the tooling company's production queue
  
• balancing release dates with ongoing company costs and risks
  

...and many more things.

Once again, we are sitting on a good number of models and sculpts which did not get tooled because they were not good enough (including those done by some very well known sculptors). Sure you can make an absolute perfect model, but not on the first try and not without sacrificing elsewhere in the above list, and pretty much every item that has been complained about in this thread is down to one or more of the above factors, not incompetence or errors in judgement.

I can't unsee that wrist and its just as bad now more angles/schemes have been shown.

 dragqueeninspace wrote:
I can't unsee that wrist and its just as bad now more angles/schemes have been shown.

It is plastic, if you dont like it, one snip of the handle on the top of the gun, then reglue and voila:

The Maelstrom's Edge Kickstarter has finally finished, and we're delighted to have had 813 backers, and to have raised $70,105 towards the project. Although we put a lot of initial investment in to get the project to this point, the money from the Kickstarter is huge as it allows us to begin making purchase orders for the content of the box set, knowing that we'll have amazing backers waiting for what we've created. The campaign has also let us add lots of additional content to the box, and we're really pleased with what everyone will receive.




The last few days of funding were really exciting for us, and we're absolutely thrilled to have unlocked several key stretch goals and rewards towards the end of the Kickstarter. These include:

For reaching $45,000, every $90 pledge includes a free terrain sprue, which contains a number of different building components that you can combine with plasticard, card, foamcore or found objects to create unique buildings that share a distinctive Maelstrom's Edge style. We're delighted with the positive feedback we've had for the terrain sprue, and are really excited to see what people build with it!

As well as the main game, we've devised a space-based card game set in the Maelstrom's Edge universe, where players use their fleets to compete for resources and planets under threat from the Maelstrom. This is a complete standalone card game, and every deck included with the $90 pledge is enough for 2 players to play a game, perfect for between battles of the miniatures game!

We announced the names of some of the amazing writers who have agreed to write short stories set in the Maelstrom's Edge universe in the future, including Alastair Reynolds, Aliette de Bodard, Karin Lowachee, Jaine Fenn, Liz Williams, Rob Ziegler and Jeff Carlson, as well as more stories by our lead writers Stephen Gaskell and Tomas L. Martin. We have lots of plans for more fiction in our setting, and will be releasing new stories regularly through our website over the coming months.

For reaching $55,000, we are going to be recording 4 more audiobooks set in the Maelstrom's Edge universe, on top of 'Transit' by Stephen Gaskell, which was made available during the Kickstarter. The audiobooks will be free to all backers, and we will be sending you a link that lets you download them from the Maelstrom's Edge website as and when they are ready. Writing and recording an audiobook takes a little time so we won't be sending these immediately but you'll be the first to know when they are available!

As a reward for all of our faithful Kickstarter backers, we had a poll to see which additional model you'd like in the box set. You voted for a second Large Angel for the Karists, which we have added to what you get in the box! This additional Angel model is exclusive to our Kickstarter backers and won't be included in the retail version of the box set.

For reaching $60,000, we are able to manufacture custom bases for the larger models in the set, which have the distinctive notches on either side, to indicate where the front and rear arcs of the models are which is important to the game. In addition, it allows more posing and conversion opportunities for models mounted on bases. These new bases will be added for the 4 Spider drones, the 2 Hunter Mechs and the 2 Large Angels, in whichever pledge they were purchased. This was a really big goal for us, so we're really pleased it got unlocked!

Literally in the final moments of the Kickstarter, we reached $70,000! This amazing achievement unlocked a free digital copy of the first novel in the Maelstrom's Edge universe, Maelstrom's Edge: Faith, cowritten by the team's lead writers, Tomas L. Martin and Stephen Gaskell. This book is already finished and we will be sending a link to all our backers as soon as we get the digital distribution logistics pinned down to give you a code to download it in the format of your choosing (mobi/epub/pdf), or gift the code to a friend if you've already bought it on Amazon Kindle. Maelstrom's Edge: Faith is part one of the Battle for Zycanthus, and the second book, Maelstrom's Edge: Sacrifice, which concludes the story, is also available on Amazon Kindle for those who enjoy reading the first book! We are keen that everyone who wants to read the books can do so, so please let us know if there are other ebook formats or stores that you would like us to make the books available on.

We are giving away some free copies of the paperback versions of the novels and right now we're collecting the names and will be in contact next week to announce the people who'll be getting copies sent in the post!

If you are a backer and your credit card company has blocked the transaction to Kickstarter (or Stripe), then don't worry, your pledge will still be held and you'll get a chance to pay again before packing and shipping begins. We'll also have the capacity to add extra terrain sprues or big boxes to your pledge at that time as well!

Making the universe, game and models for Maelstrom's Edge has been a massive undertaking by our small team and we are incredibly grateful for the support we've received from all our Kickstarter backers, and friends in the wargames community. We'd like to send a special thank you to many awesome people and companies including but not limited to Kingdom Death, Dreamforge Games, Frontline Gaming, Mantic Games, Tabletop Fix, Cool Mini Or Not, Bell of Lost Souls, Beasts of War, the D6 Generation podcast, 3++, Tabletop Gaming News, theminiaturespage, Lead Adventure, Wee Gamers, 3rd Dimension Gear, and especially all the commentors on Kickstarter and Dakka for your support, questions and feedback. We've strived really hard to make Maelstrom's Edge as good as we possibly could, and are proud of what we've made.

We've had some great input from the wargames community over the last few months, and we are listening carefully to all the requests and feedback we've had so far. When we came to launch the Kickstarter, we wanted to try and get as much of the design work completed as possible, so that our backers wouldn't have to wait too long to receive the boxed game. HIPS plastic production is a incredibly time-consuming process, and if we were to start making changes to the sprue design at this point, it would delay the launch by months or even years! We've tried to address every piece of feedback we've had as much as we can, but rest assured that even when it's not possible for us to change something locked in for this initial release, we are listening for the future, and every step of the way from here we will continue to improve on the beginnings that you have helped launch.

We are now going to turn our attention to delivering on what we've promised and getting the box sets into the hands of our backers by our delivery date of December this year, and then to launch in retail in early 2016. Keeping our backers and supporters up to date is really important to us, and we will be putting a tracker on the Maelstrom's Edge website ( http://www.maelstromsedge.com ) to keep people informed of the status of the project and the completion of key milestones. The money we've raised in the Kickstarter also lets us start planning for the future, and we have already started designing additional models for both the Epirian Foundation and Karist Enclave to add to what comes in the box set, as well as three new factions, the advanced technology of the Artarian Remnant Fleet, the rebels and revolutionaries of the Broken and the strange posthuman Kaigus Pact. Whilst these new additions will take time to develop and design, the Kickstarter funds allow us to start working on the future releases earlier than we would have been able to otherwise. In the near future we are focusing on ensuring that our backers get the content they have pledged for as quickly as possible, but we have lots of plans to expand the game of Maelstrom's Edge in the future!

Thank you all once again for your support and feedback and we look forward to getting the box set of Maelstrom's Edge in your hands very soon.

The Spiral Arm Studios team

 AlexHolker wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
I've been thinking about this thread a bit the last few days, and had this question for folks like Alex / Bob. Isn't revealing new releases (even if they are not finished), rather than showing something at an early concept phase and seeking community feedback, how most miniature companies functionally operate?

Yes, it is. But the proof is in the pudding: Dropzone Commander's PHR are interesting, aesthetically pleasing designs, and the fact that they were designed without outside assistance doesn't detract from that. Mantic, on the other hand, makes ugly models with tiny legs and thus does not deserve the same level of trust.

Personally, your sketches Alex haven't necessarily appealed to me more than the models, and looking at the Epirian artwork they were working from, I think it looks just as good.

Noted, but the Epirian Contractor concept art is nine heads tall. The miniature based on that art is something closer to 5.5 heads, so the fact that the concept does not possess the flaws introduced in the translation to a 28mm heroic scale miniature should not be surprising. Mine was intended as much more WYSIWYG concept art of 6.4 heads - like the miniature the proportions are distorted to make the head, hands and feet larger and the arms, legs and torso thicker than they would be in real life, but in a way that doesn't stand out so much as being wrong.

To me, as Tom notes, the models are just the result of doing something extremely hard - injection molded plastic, and being brand new to it.

But they're not. If people were complaining about the resolution of fine detail on the models or that the sides of the models didn't have enough detail, those are complaints that could reasonably be laid at the feet of HIPS. But those are not the things people are complaining about. Being injection-moulded plastic isn't why the Scarecrow and Hunter only have one hand, or why the Epirians' arms are as thick as their legs.

See... you are doing it again. Presenting your opinion as facts.

Sure, you know exactly how to fix these things FOR YOU. This absolutely doesn't mean that your solutions work for everyone, or that they are in any way better to anyone BUT YOU.

Guess what dude, I didn't like your re-designs at all. Especially the exo-armor, it looks like a power suit but your hands solution looks stuck on and awkward at best to me, unpractical too. So you can talk as if you know 100% for sure how to 'do it right', but I wouldn't buy your idea. It's nothing to do with the proportions, it was just a bad concept in my eyes, especially the fore-arms and the clear 'outbreak' head (that would be super unfeasable on a miniature btw). So, you are already losing your perfect score. I'm glad two people gave you a pat on the back for it, and it is cool you went to the effort, but it seems at least a few just politely refrained from gakking on it. Funny how the comments of 4 or 5 people can fool you into thinking you are a majority when it may well be that others, potentially many, are too exhausted by a certain kind of attitude to speak eh? Food for thought.

The difference between you and I is I'm not trying to speak for anyone else. My critique and views are just my own and I know it. There is a big difference between saying 'I didn't like your designs at all' and 'Your designs are bad. People don't like them'. One is subjective, the other objective, and you are not an authority, sorry, to define the objective facts of the wargaming market single handedly and without feedback yourself.

If you want everyone to play the game the way you play, I can come on here and undermine most every post you make too. I can make a daily hobby of it too. I can offer you blunt, self-important and sometimes just plain rude comments under a thin veil of 'critique'... telling you 'only I know how to fix your designs, listen to me, not the 800 other people who liked it enough to buy it. Me and my 4 pals here are not satisfied, please proceed with making your game just for me, a la carte if you would.'

It really seems there is no point to having a discussion with you, or engaging with you about this topic for anyone who doesn't agree with you. You have no room, it seems to me, to limit the importance of your own opinion vs the bigger picture. Does it mean you are wrong? Maybe not, maybe you are right about your points! I can't decide that. But it doesn't change that the way you are presenting them is really poor in my view, or that is hilariously ironic that you are complaining about people not listening to you.... that's pretty rich dude lol. Can you show me I would be wrong on those last few points? Honest question. I am sure you don't think you are behaving in the way I am describing, and you probably think I am being a jerk to you. But honestly man, I and I am sure many others here are genuinely TRYING to engage with you, but the with me or against me attitude makes it really tough to address your concerns or make you feel listened to. You can't continue to take personal offense that people don't do things 'your way' as if they promised to do it and broke your trust. You can't evaluate a production process based on nothing but how you think it should work. You have no idea what is where, how much, what the deals in place are or who is doing what. Who are you to just arbitrarily decide 'they didn't show us model x when they had time for that one'. Based on what lol, how the hell did you arrive at the conclusion, knowing nothing specific about the finish state of the production process lol?

Come on man, you gotta give a bit here, take a step back and really try to assess what you are sounding like, and leave some room for not knowing some things...
Again, nothing about this is about you not having the right to have an opinion or talk about it. It's about how you are talking to people, not what you think.

 legoburner wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

To me, as Tom notes, the models are just the result of doing something extremely hard - injection molded plastic, and being brand new to it.

But they're not. If people were complaining about the resolution of fine detail on the models or that the sides of the models didn't have enough detail, those are complaints that could reasonably be laid at the feet of HIPS. But those are not the things people are complaining about. Being injection-moulded plastic isn't why the Scarecrow and Hunter only have one hand, or why the Epirians' arms are as thick as their legs.

Of course that is why - I'll repost (some of) the considerations for making a model viable in plastic:

• sprue space (hands)
  
• mould draw angles and ease of ejection (hands, arms)
  
• target part count
  
• width of parts
  
• strength of parts
  
• clutch of parts
  
• target number of models on each sprue
  
• ease of assembly
  
• posing flexibility
  
• cross-range compatibility (including with future/unreleased models)
  
• fit to the rules
  
• fit to the fiction
  
• fit to the artwork
  
• price of the sculpt
  
• price of the mould
  
• revision count of the sculpt (and price of subsequent revisions)
  
• sculptor talent
  
• sculptor attitude, motivation and relationship
  
• target price of the model
  
• weight of the sprue
  
• potential rival models in the marketplace (past present and future)
  
• potential compatible models in the marketplace (past present and future)
  
• losing a timed place in the tooling company's production queue
  
• balancing release dates with ongoing company costs and risks
  

...and many more things.

Once again, we are sitting on a good number of models and sculpts which did not get tooled because they were not good enough (including those done by some very well known sculptors). Sure you can make an absolute perfect model, but not on the first try and not without sacrificing elsewhere in the above list, and pretty much every item that has been complained about in this thread is down to one or more of the above factors, not incompetence or errors in judgement.

So are the next wave miniatures already fixed? are we allowed to see the designs? Are we allowed to comment on them? Are the critiques of the current designs and models noted and incorporated in the next wave (designs models)?
Are these design/model issues because it was your first venture into HIPS? Or do you think we are over reacting and there is nothing wrong with your designs and we are just haters.

How about no one answer him til he actually reads the many answers he has already received lol?