Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

We completely appreciate everyone willing to give their feedback about the game/models, whether they love it or hate it, at least you're giving us insights on what tickles your fancy.

So thanks to everyone who has done so up to this point and will no doubt continue to do so. We are listening to everything that is being said and at the very least will consider it for the future.

Also please do your best to forgive any public gaffes we might have. We are still a brand new miniature gaming company, and not surprisingly have a ton on our plates at this very moment, which can sometimes make for hastily written responses when they never should be. We know there should never be such lapses, and we will continue to work towards trying to make sure that is the case.

I hope that some or all of you can make it to Salute this weekend to take a look at the models 'in the flesh'. I know from my own experience, that they look way better to my eye in person than they do when blown-up in pics on a screen (and I happen to like them on the screen).

I agree 200% Cain. That is criticism that is realistic, polite and well-intended. Well said sir.

 Vertrucio wrote:
There is also nothing to be done about it since these steel molds have already been cut.

They can acknowledge that they need to not make the same mistakes next time, instead of sacrificing the entire line on the altar of backwards compatibility. Which is my primary concern at this point. I was never going to buy these initial kits, because it's going to be at least a year until we see the first female kit, and I have no use for robotic auxiliaries without a core of sapients to build the army around. But if they came out tomorrow I would almost certainly not buy them, because these initial kits have flaws that feel like they would be deal breakers if they are allowed to persist.

Well, that escalated quickly. For that, I am sorry. I meant my comments to be far less serious and insulting than they came across. They were the result of a lighthearted conversation comparing MEdge with Mantic, and I thought the discussion should be brought here (although I dropped the Mantic references out of respect). In no way was I trying to insult the company or call out anyone personally. There is no ill will here.

To put things in perspective, despite the criticism I still plan to pledge day one and fully expect to enjoy assembling or converting all the minis I receive, including the Epirians. Do I have some criticisms? Are there some mistakes I will bring up in the hopes they won't be made again? Absolutely, and I'll do it with a bad joke or two. Does this mean I don't love the product? No. I just want it to go to medical school or I will disown you be the best it can be.


Now, I have seen some criticism of how Legoburner, et al., are handling the kickstarter, so maybe we should discuss that. How can they make this the best gaming kickstarter possible? I'm no Buzzsaw, but it seems to me like Legoburner, Yakface and the gang really know their stuff. They've done a ton of preparation. They are releasing information both in universe and out of it to keep the momentum going. They are open and communicative with the community. And they have novelty on their side, in terms of launching a wargame through their own (in)famous forum. They've certainly got Gates of Antares beat all to shart. MEdge most reminds me of Toughest Girls in the Galaxy 2, in that there is a lot of buildup and name recognition at play, with lots of artwork and pictures of existing minis.

I predict that Maelstrom's Edge will make $300,000 in the first 72 hours. (It's in USD, right?) I would say the first 24, but it is a weekend and just after Salute, so that might effect things. I also suspect the kickstarter will appear to be heavily front-loaded, but with a strong finish due to some strategically with-held revelations/stretch goals/photos of loved ones tied to chairs. What do you think?

Bob that was awesome of you, thanks for clearing it up. People are gonna be sensitive about both their baby and their money, so the kind of attitude you display above is a great one and all that
could be asked for IMHO to keep things cool and productive.

From what I gather the Kickstarter will be more than most and less. It will be unprecedented in many ways I think, in that truly there will be absolutely no empty promises, no misleads.

I certainly hope that though the initial models shown have not pleased you, the two other legs of the IP, the rules and the background, will give enough meat on the bone to the overall that you feel invested. The models are a big part certainly but there is more to chew on if you stick in I think. Hopefully you and others will be able to invest more enthusiastically in future models and designs from a satisfied rules and background position.

Again, that is very cool to see what you wrote there, restores my hope in humanity

I'm not sure what you mean by the models displeased me. I love-love-love the drones in all their forms. I also really like the Karists and the Minnows, even if I acknowledge their flaws and weaknesses. The Epirians are ...well, they're conversation starters. I've bought minis with less going for them, that's for sure. Besides, the chaps will help them fit in next to the 'dat booty' Eisenkern.

And I absolutely want to read more of the fluff. Once those novels come out in paperback, I'll be all over them.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

And I absolutely want to read more of the fluff. Once those novels come out in paperback, I'll be all over them.

We will have a limited print run of about two hundred paperbacks of each novel available at Salute. Obviously as the co-author of the books I would love to have hard copies available full time, but printing is expensive so it really depends on how well the launch is received. It's definitely something we'll keep in mind moving forward as we want as many people as possible reading the background to our universe. I also intend to explore putting them on other digital ebook stores soon for those that don't have Kindle.

Ouch, kindle.

I guess I'll have to pay someone to buy me a copy at Salute since I'm not going to be there.

As for the Epirians. I do think they are a bit blocky, and that's okay. I just wish they had a slightly more realistic approach. (Irony since I collect Space Marines.) I'm okay with a little bit of static, if they just had more realistic weaponry or a tad more chest armor to compliment the shoulders. Am I saying I wouldn't play with them or buy a squad just for the hell of it? No.

By what I mean concerning realistic weapons, I'm all for sci-fi but, perhaps make them a tad smaller, and take a cue from say Mass Effect with their design. I'm not saying go all 100% ham and super future with them but, just make them a little smoother and less brickish?

I feel like they are too big to be realistic, and too blocky to look that way but, in the same token not blocky enough or large enough to be iconic like, let's say the Starcraft Marines rifles. I'm sure that avid modelers could chop off the weapons and replace them with Anvil Industry or Zinge weapons however.


That being said, I also love the contractor's robots and mechs, along with the concept of transferable knowledge. The faction I will support and put time into will be the Karists as I adore everything so far about them from design to fluff. The sprues look very nice btw. Also I don't get the complaints with Minnows. They're not perfect but, no where near bad. I love their maw design. A smidgen of GS and my god, they'd be lovely.

I hope this doesn't offend, just my two cents so far.

Legoburner in response to discussing the Karist wrist on the N&R thread:
"I appreciate the point you've made and we have responded with the reasoning and fix but the announcement thread is not the best place for continued debate on it now that everything has been covered. I know you are a good guy from your great stuff in the mantic threads, but this announcement post is linked to our livelihoods so we need to keep it fairly on track with the reveal rather than a 2 page dissection of a single feature on a single model. Feel free to start a thread elsewhere if you want to discuss it further as we are not trying to censor anything."

Thankfully, Bob made a thread that is outside of the N&R thread where it can be discussed. But, for the last page I've read a handful of posts still discussing the models and a large pile of sycophantic posts calling for politeness and demanding everyone stop criticizing anything about the game. I am wondering if I will see these same posts applied to any other company's discussions on Dakka.

Now... I am obviously the poster boy for Maelstrom-hate because I posted the first critical post on the N&R thread.

But, seriously, does everyone think I hate Dakka and legoburner and yakface? I've been here for years and made a ton of posts and generally try to be helpful. I enjoy the lively discussions, especially from some key members, who have very critical eyes and acerbic wit but are generally correct about companies putting out garbage. It's not like other forums full of x-lovers/y-haters or grognards hating anything made past 1990.
However, just because Dakka is making a game does not mean it is a sacred cow.
Maybe because I love Dakka that I would hope that a game that it creates will be the best on the market?

According to some posters, I should be polite, and keep my mouth shut, and not say anything if what I say is going to be negative about Maelstrom's Edge.
But that's not what Dakka is, for me.

Maybe Maelstrom's Edge's sculpts are "good enough" for people willing to look past some glaring flaws, but I expect the best from this site, especially if they hope to compete with a rapidly-crowding market.

Looking at the Epirian contractors, at the moment I feel that they have a blocky look about them that reduces the 'wow' factor, personally, I know it not going to happen but I'd really like to see them with some alternative arms (and heads) from Cadians, UAMC Marines (which I have loads of spare at the moment), PIg Iron etc, since for me the Epirians are falling into the convert for other uses category......corporate security, rebel miners, combat engineers for my UAMC Marine company, starship crew etc.

While I'm interested in the background, I'm more likely to buy into Maelstrom Edge for the figures to use for my own homegrown settings.

 EarloftheNorth wrote:
Looking at the Epirian contractors, at the moment I feel that they have a blocky look about them that reduces the 'wow' factor, personally, I know it not going to happen but I'd really like to see them with some alternative arms (and heads) from Cadians, UAMC Marines (which I have loads of spare at the moment), PIg Iron etc, since for me the Epirians are falling into the convert for other uses category......corporate security, rebel miners, combat engineers for my UAMC Marine company, starship crew etc.

While I'm interested in the background, I'm more likely to buy into Maelstrom Edge for the figures to use for my own homegrown settings.

I do not think the UAMC arms would be compatible with these guys, though.

 judgedoug wrote:


According to some posters, I should be polite, and keep my mouth shut, and not say anything if what I say is going to be negative about Maelstrom's Edge.
But that's not what Dakka is, for me.

Maybe Maelstrom's Edge's sculpts are "good enough" for people willing to look past some glaring flaws, but I expect the best from this site, especially if they hope to compete with a rapidly-crowding market.

I think you may have the wrong end of the stick, tbh. No-one has a problem with you saying what you dislike. But people can, and will disagree with you. I've no dog in this fight, and I've found some of your criticisms mildly over-exaggerated/picky for the sake of being picky (and I don't think I'm the only one). I'm not sure you should take disagreement as, 'put up and shut up', in the same way you shouldn't necessarily dub anyone else as being 'sycophantic' for disagreeing with you.

Less of a broad brush about other people would probably go down better, y'know?

Now... I am obviously the poster boy for Maelstrom-hate because I posted the first critical post on the N&R thread.

There's Maelstrom-hate? Most of what I've seen is the same criticism over and over, namely that the Epirians are too blocky. Which is true. It's been explained technically why that is, which is fair enough. Some people like it, some dislike it. Some think it's not the best, but it'll do.

I'm really not sure I'd qualify that as 'Maelstrom-hate', although it does have a tendency to get boring to read about as a criticism after you've read it for the umpteenth dozen time.

 Ketara wrote:
There's Maelstrom-hate? Most of what I've seen is the same criticism over and over, namely that the Epirians are too blocky.

I'm personally having trouble remembering when I said the Epirians were blocky. My first criticism was over the Karist's broken wrist.

My criticisms, reposted so you can see that at no point, I said that Epirians were "blocky"

The kneepads were designed by someone who has no idea how kneepads work. They will slip off the moment the dude takes a step.
The shoulder armor is held on by wishes.
The rifle is somehow even brickier than a Bolter and must weigh about 40 pounds.
There is no abdominal armor despite that being the most vital part of armor (and the reason that modern military has abdominal armor). (and medieval militaries) (seriously no one likes getting shot or stabbed in the gut) (why the shoulder pad fetish?)
The assless chaps. Seriously. Do they have a butt flap as well? Do they eat a lot of Activia yogurt?
THE HEAD SIZE. Their heads appear to be larger than the armored versions of the other two models. and their arms are huge. Like also they appear to be thicker than the dudes in powered armor. (wait, I got it... do the powered armor dudes FIT INSIDE the Epirian skin-suits?)
Actually, these guys look like someone gave hydrocephalic Hobbits some Nerf guns that were spray painted black.
This is a great example of the George Lucas effect - only a few people saying "YES!" and not enough critical eyes saying "NO" before going into production. This is why there is a need for Professional Naysayers that someone can hire, who is not close to the project, and say "this is a terrible design." Oh, man, I wish GW and Mantic would hire one of those.

and then

Since the Epirians appear to by physically larger than the powered armor gents, one must assume that either the Epirians are a foam rubber suit that is worn by another, normal-sized entity. Or that the Karists are small and slender and the Epirians of the future are uplifted children, retaining the same rough head-to-body ratio as a toddler.

Here's another that's good, but not mine

"Yea, I'd certainly never buy one (the gun). If they're supposed to be futuristic, they certainly should have better sights. There's no stock, so that's gakky enough. But since there's no stock, you can assume they shoot rounds with low recoil, so why would you need the gun to be so damn bulky if it shoots a crappy round."

 judgedoug wrote:

snip

Okay. 'brickier'. 'thicker'.

You could have also used 'Chunky', 'square' and a dozen other words to describe the same effect I'm talking about. . The main reason you're ambivalent about them/dislike them, is the same reason as most other people who are ambivalent/dislike them, which was my point. I never said you specifically said the word 'blocky', I was more referring the overall aesthetic issue some people have.

 Ketara wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:

snip

Okay. 'brickier'. 'thicker'.

You could have also used 'Chunky', 'square' and a dozen other words to describe the same effect I'm talking about. . The main reason you're ambivalent about them/dislike them, is the same reason as most other people who are ambivalent/dislike them, which was my point. I never said you specifically said the word 'blocky', I was more referring the overall aesthetic issue some people have.

Well, no, you directly referred to my initial post about the Karist's broken wrist and then attributed all Epirians-are-blocky posts from _all of the other people who also dislike the sculpts_ directly to me.
So, I'm _not_ the poster boy. Right.

 judgedoug wrote:


Well, no, you directly referred to my initial post about the Karist's broken wrist and then attributed all Epirians-are-blocky posts from _all of the other people who also dislike the sculpts_ directly to me.
So, I'm _not_ the poster boy. Right.

Reread, I'm questioning if there actually is any 'Maelstrom-hate' generally. If that's not what you're getting from the words, please reread with the knowledge that that is my intention.

Frankly, I'm really confused about where you'd get the idea that minor comments about kneepads/gun sights qualify as 'Maelstrom-hate'. I mean, wouldn't you agree that it seems a bit of an extreme phrase, for what is 90% of people criticising the blockiness? (or whatever word you choose to represent that). Let alone for there to be a 'poster-boy' for it. It all just seems to be such overblown language.

 judgedoug wrote:

 EarloftheNorth wrote:
Looking at the Epirian contractors, at the moment I feel that they have a blocky look about them that reduces the 'wow' factor, personally, I know it not going to happen but I'd really like to see them with some alternative arms (and heads) from Cadians, UAMC Marines (which I have loads of spare at the moment), PIg Iron etc, since for me the Epirians are falling into the convert for other uses category......corporate security, rebel miners, combat engineers for my UAMC Marine company, starship crew etc.

While I'm interested in the background, I'm more likely to buy into Maelstrom Edge for the figures to use for my own homegrown settings.

I do not think the UAMC arms would be compatible with these guys, though.

Maybe, maybe not the torso seems to roughly the same size as the cadians and UAMC marines.......I really do however need a source of cheap shoulder pads for the UAMC arms.


One thing I noticed in the scale comparison is that next to the Epirian, the Cadian seems podgy....



which I've never felt while looking at them in person, which makes me wonder how much of a distorted view I'm getting of the blockyness of the Epirians.

Wow you're right the Cadian looks like a wad of used chewing gum next to the Epirian to me lol.. very kinda... mushy. You are so familiar with the model that you kinda just pass it over as a scale reference without taking in the details, but when you really look and compare those two in specific you are right, there is a story to see there. Detail on the Epirian to my eye is quite superior in definition. Proportionally, shoulders are a bit wider but the rest seems pretty darn close to GW heroic, which has been stated is the intended scale (even if I personally prefer true scale as well aesthetically).

I believe this was done to try get cross compatibility/part swappability with as much of the market as possible. It makes it so the minis have added value for many in terms of the spectrum of possible uses/applications as models or as parts.

Again, not at all saying that you can't dislike them. Not one bit. But I think it is worth looking at that, realizing proportionally, in the heroic scale, they are actually pretty good looking compared to a comparable baseline Cadian at least on a detail and techinical level if not a style one?

To the shoulder pads question, to me, they always had a use for me in terms of being a place to put markings, squad identifiers etc. If minis were all super realistic, then there wouldn't be a lot of free, flat area to do something creative graphically. That being said, I'm not saying a hyper realistic mini has anything wrong with it, just different flavours, different choices. What annoys you for being unrealistic may be a familiar and welcome utility and look for others. Neither being wrong or right of course.

Scale wise, for the 'this head wouldn't fit in that' and so on, the Cadian is either 8 feet tall or that space marine is the mugsy bogues of the astartes... heroic is heroic, there will always be a... chibi-esque aspect in terms of deforms to suit an individual model aesthetic, balanced vs the effort to maintain cohesion across a line. They don't always match up, kinda par for the course. Dark Eldar heads would never fit in their helmets, the helmets are proportions to be nearly the size of a bare head in most heroic cases, so long as the face is not visible. DE jetbike rider blankface cobra commander head comes to mind. Given they are already squished for the scale in many ways, a 'true fitting' helmet would be disproportionately huge in a lot of cases. The preceding, of course, being merely my personal observation and opinion on the matter, YMMV.

Anyways, again, you can hate it, and you don't need a 'good' reason, that's up to you and no one can gain-say your personal opinion. That being said, just contain that personal opinion to yourself personally, and stick inside Dakka's basic rules, and I think everyone and everything will be fine.

The owners are not asking for special treatment from what I can see, they are simply asking for the most basic forum rules to also apply to them too. Nothing special added, but nothing basic taken away either. That seems darn fair to me.

*Stares at the Cadian some more* wow my brain is trying to tell me it's out of focus compared to the Epirian... though paint job quality may have a bit to do with it.

Let me just say that I actually do l̶i̶k̶e LOVE the Epirian Contractors.

They also will look better and do look better with different colour schemes.
I like this one from the ones given best, as the chaps are not as confronting when they are a similar or neutral colour compared to the pants. It makes it look more like cool scifi work wear/overalls than chaps.
Also I'd paint the shoulder and knee pads a more muted, less attention grabbing colour, like black, or the same green colour as the chaps.
And that red thing doesn't suit any scheme... What even is it?



They're not perfect, but they do have a lot of potential. I would happily add them to my collection with a bit of converting.

They have a few flaws OTHERWISE I REALLY LIKE THEM!
I am confident in my modelling skills to adapt them to my vision of what I would want it to look like. Modelling is pretty much the whole of the Hobby for me, even though I may consider getting into the gaming side of this, considering how well thought out and planned this is. I only buy models I really like. I would buy the Epirian Contractors based on that premise! They are unique and have an aesthetic that appeals to me and I can see their beauty under all the little flaws.
They just ooze a rough and ready burly mercenary engineer. .All the flaws I see are easily and happily fixed for me. It actually even creates more of a challenge which I prefer. Just making kits like copy and pastes is never as rewarding.

Suggested changes for mk2
-The guns need to be less blocky IMO (Mostly Just the blocky barrel and Impotent looking clip), an Autogunesque rifle would look perfect with these guys and still might be easily noticeable at a distance.
-The biceps seem as wide as the head. Although this doesn't bother me too much as it actually kind of suits the whole aesthetic IMO.
-The arms also look a tad bit chicken winged. Only the ones taking aim. Or maybe it just looks a tad bit off without a stock/rifle butt.
-The hats are a bit blocky and helmets might have suited better IMO.
And, as I said above. What is that red cable running from the neck to the belt?
If it has something to do with the background I can totally understand but purely aesthetically it kind of breaks the 'flow' and painting it red is kind of jarring.
-Shoulder and knee pads are a tiny bit off for me. minor reshaping/resizing would do it do me.
-Also I'd obviously model the clenched fist had to be anything but...

I have no problems fixing these myself. However others will not fork out money unless their expectations are met in the kit. It does seem solely based on reviews here on dakka that for a significant amount of people these expectations are not met. Developers, welcome this criticism and take it as free market research added to you're already (I'm sure) extensive supply. I am sure you are already doing this as well. I see a lot of potential and this is the beginnings of hopefully something really great. Best of luck!!!

I am also really liking the Karists squads, more so than the Epirians I'm afraid. I will definitely be getting some of these as well. Will also be making some minor conversions, fixing a broken wrist, ect. but they are really sweet. I am not 100% liking the Minnows or the drones (which most others seem to love). Though they may look better in person.
.

 Flying Pooo wrote:

And, as I said above. What is that red cable running from the neck to the belt?

I think it's a zip.

I don't know what the red thing is. Decorative? It doesn't work as a zipper as the clothing underneath it is layered. Symbolic to the Foundation?

It's red or orange-red in all the concept art, so that's what it got painted, but I think it's the shape of it rather than the colour that makes it stand out.

 EarloftheNorth wrote:

Maybe, maybe not the torso seems to roughly the same size as the cadians and UAMC marines.......I really do however need a source of cheap shoulder pads for the UAMC arms.

Actually, you may be right. The relatively normal size UAMC arms might be an improvement over the current cabbage patch kids arms. The difficulty will be either modifying the torso to look like body armor or just painting it like body armor.
There's not much that can be done about the legs, though. Unless the outer layer is supposed to be some sort of kevlar? It's almost impossible to bend your knees in kevlar pants, let alone with a single strap kneepad :/

Though you have my interest piqued now. I wonder how the Epirian torso would look on UAMC legs?

Actually dude you may have convinced me to buy them because the UAMC have the extra pair of legs, two extra sets of arms, and four extra heads per sprue, and the Epirian torso will fill in for the lack of third torso on the UAMC sprue.

Hmm... I don't suppose you have extra UAMC you wanna sell?

 judgedoug wrote:

 EarloftheNorth wrote:

Maybe, maybe not the torso seems to roughly the same size as the cadians and UAMC marines.......I really do however need a source of cheap shoulder pads for the UAMC arms.

Actually, you may be right. The relatively normal size UAMC arms might be an improvement over the current cabbage patch kids arms. The difficulty will be either modifying the torso to look like body armor or just painting it like body armor.
There's not much that can be done about the legs, though. Unless the outer layer is supposed to be some sort of kevlar? It's almost impossible to bend your knees in kevlar pants, let alone with a single strap kneepad :/

Though you have my interest piqued now. I wonder how the Epirian torso would look on UAMC legs?

Actually dude you may have convinced me to buy them because the UAMC have the extra pair of legs, two extra sets of arms, and four extra heads per sprue, and the Epirian torso will fill in for the lack of third torso on the UAMC sprue.

Hmm... I don't suppose you have extra UAMC you wanna sell?

Sorry, I've been looking for some more myself will no luck.......I'm really wishing I picked a few more up when they were available, but they were always hard to find in stock in the UK, even before the Kickstarter debacle.

I'm still fuming that my dog ate three sprues of UAMC. Some of the heads survived, at least.

I really hope we get to see some renders of the robots before they go to tooling. They look like they should be awesome, but imagine if they ended up with ball joint ankles or tiny feet that just make them look sad...

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

The Books:

I have not read the books, but I would love to read some reviews of them in this thread. Please hide all spoilers, because I want to read them as soon as they are available in paperback.

I grabbed the books and they have been enjoyable so far. I'm almost finished with them and very much like what I've read to this point.

My one criticism is that the books seem like they were literally one book split into two for the sole purpose of getting a little extra revenue out of them. Totally my impression, of course. There may have been other reasons to split it.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
There has also been a whiff of accusation about the inspiration for Maelstrom's Edge that cannot safely be discussed in the original thread.

Scuzzy pointed out that the name, and possibly some of the thematic elements, of MEdge sound very similar to his own game, Vor: the Maelstrom. I am not familiar with that universe at all, so I can't really speak to the accuracy of his claims, but feel like they should be addressed. If you know much about Vor: TheM, please share your thoughts on the matter. Let's either validate the comparison or put a rightful end to it.

Here is a picture of some Vor minis I found. I don't see many similarities right off...

Honestly the first thing I thought of when I read the initial blurb was "Wow, this reminds me a lot of VOR". I found another similarity in the novels with the description of an alien being pretty similar to the Zykhee race from VOR.

We won't be able to put any end to this, but the respective parties are/have discussed the issue and I'm sure are working it out.


My issue with the models so far is with their proportions. The GW style "heroic" proportions were chosen, and that is a bit baffling to me given the state of technology and competition these days.

I also don't believe I've seen any of the artist or sculptor's names and I'm curious as to why. Especially given that the game's success will most likely rest more on their shoulders than anyone else's involved in the project.

~Eric

 EarloftheNorth wrote:
One thing I noticed in the scale comparison is that next to the Epirian, the Cadian seems podgy....



which I've never felt while looking at them in person, which makes me wonder how much of a distorted view I'm getting of the blockyness of the Epirians.

It is actually quite amazing to see the difference between how models with exaggerated proportions (aka 'heroic' scale) look in a close-up picture compared to when you see them in real life from a normal distance (3-5 feet).

I too have always looked at Cadians on a table and thought: Those are awesome looking models and a great looking army. I never once considered just how abnormal they looked until you really study them in a comparison picture against other models...but even knowing that, does that change how good they look on the table from a normal distance? Not to me it doesn't.

On another site, I saw someone commenting on the MEdge models saying that heroic scale was a holdover from the 80's when sculptors sucked and is now something that is dated and has no place in the current marketplace. The thing is, heroic scale was not created because the sculptors were unable to properly represent human anatomy at 28mm. I think we can all agree that sculptors have been able to properly represent the human body at much smaller scales than that for many, many years.

Instead, the sculptors purposely exaggerate certain parts of the body knowing full well that we don't typically look at our models 6 inches from our face. We look at them from 3-5 feet away on the table, or 6-8 feet away if across the table. From that distance, 28mm models scaled proportionately tend to have spindly limbs, tiny heads, and tiny guns. Sure, they look phenomenal when you pick them up and stare at them next to your face, or look at close-up pictures of them on the internet, but that is not how most of us spend our time looking at our models! For example, Wyrd makes some absolutely amazing miniatures which I am always thoroughly impressed by when I see them online or look at them up close, but when I went to Adepticon I was just walking by and browsing games of Malifaux and I honestly could not make out what a whole lot of the models even were without stooping over to take a close look at them.

It also makes assembling and painting the models way, way easier...which personally for me is another huge selling point. In a way, it kind of reminds me of some of the tricks and techniques that moviemakers have used in the past to 'trick' the viewer (mainly before CGI made it so you could do anything you want). They used to use matte paintings and other techniques that, yeah, if you looked at the frame really, really closely you could see it was BS, but when viewed from the normal movie watching position, looks fantastic.

Of course, this is all just my own personal opinions based on what I like. Ultimately there are going to be plenty of people out there who cannot stand exaggerated proportions on their models no matter what the reasoning, and I am most certainly not going to be able to convince you otherwise, and that is fine. However, like I've said a few times, I hope some or all of you might be able to make it out to Salute to see our models in person. Because I know that my reaction to seeing them in the flesh was very different to when I originally saw the pictures of them online, and I'd be willing to wager that more than a few of you might have a similar reaction to me when you actually see the models.

 Taarnak wrote:

I grabbed the books and they have been enjoyable so far. I'm almost finished with them and very much like what I've read to this point.

My one criticism is that the books seem like they were literally one book split into two for the sole purpose of getting a little extra revenue out of them. Totally my impression, of course. There may have been other reasons to split it.

Thank you for the kind words, having spent a long time co-writing, rewriting and editing the novels I'm very glad people are enjoying them.

The split in the books was due to money, but not for us to make more. As we are a fledgling company we didn't have a publishing deal, so we are putting the paperbacks out for sale at Salute on our own investment. The original length of the two books combined was too big for us to fit into a traditional binding, and we couldn't print both together as one book without pricing it at a level that we thought would be too much for people to want to buy it. As a result, we split it into the two volumes you have read. We didn't want to confuse people by having one ebook with one name and two paperbacks with different names, so we split the ebooks as well. I think we've priced them at a level that for launch ebooks is appropriate for their length - I'd be interested to know what you think about that.

You can blame me and Stephen if you like - when we started writing we originally intended it to be one 80-90,000 word novel, which is about typical for this sort of thing. But due to the complexity of trying to portray both factions in alternating storylines, the book grew and the final version was just over 130,000 words, which caused the issues with being unable to print it as a single volume. We hope that the final result is worth the extra word count, and the resultant split into two books!

 yakface wrote:
Stuff about scale...

I'll admit that the Contractors weren't my favorite models when they were first announced. But looking at the scale shot there, I can totally see how 20 of them on the tabletop are going to look pretty dang good. I really like the look of massed Cadian troops and in that picture, they look downright silly looking and the Contractors show up pretty well.

Add to that that there are numerous models that I haven't liked until I saw them in person and with alternate color schemes and I think they'll be just fine. Are there things to improve on, yes, of course. But my panties are firmly unbunched in this case.

Once again, this is not hate, but I have to disagree. To my eyes, the Cadian looks like a much more uh, confident sculpt. Stylistically, the Cadian is a much more extreme version of heroic scale, but the design and proportions make a lot more sense in that scale than on the Contractor. The difference is akin to that between a well-drawn chibi figure and an a rougher comic strip character; the 'scale' may be abnormal on both, but one of them is clearly taking advantage of the style rather than working to overcome it. That's not to say one is good and the other is bad. One of them just seems to need more development to truly shine.

Aren't the Cadian models like, 15 years old too?