Tweaking the Chaos Space Marine Codex

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**Pilau Rice**

Here is my attempt at tweaking the Chaos Space Marine Codex to make it a bit more varied and enjoyable I guess, trying to fix some of the stuff that they either missed, turned into something that you would never use or just some of the wording to make it clearer.

I don’t believe I have made anything over powered, it’s not my intention to do so, just make things worth their points a bit more.

It’s not an attempt to fit the Legions in either so it is greatly left the same as it is currently. I have however made an attempt at putting Cult Terminators into the equation although this is where I struggled so opinions and suggestions would be appreciated.

I’ve done it in an FAQ style to hopefully make it easier to go through.

Hope you like it, comments are welcome but if you don't, please be gentle

P30. Mark of Tzeentch
Change to: If given to a model that does not already have an invulnerable save, this mark confers an Invulnerable of 5+.

P32. Sorcerers
Amend to: Psyker: A Sorcerer with the mark of Tzeentch generates his powers from the Divination, Pyromancy and Telepathy disciplines.

P49. Warp Talons
Add: Warp Screech: The Warp Talon emits a high pitched wail that is disconcerting to it foes. The Warp Screech counts the unit as being equipped with assault grenades and in addition, when a unit fires over watch against the Warp Talons, it must pass a leadership test to do so.

P55. Chaos Land Raider
Special Rules: Infernal Device – on a 5+ the Land Raiders corrupted Spirit takes over and follows the Power of the Machine spirit special rule, if the roll is failed the Land Raider acts as normal as the spirit rebels.

P56. Helbrutes
Amend: Blood Rage: The Helbrute immediately recovers from any Crew Stunned and Crew Shaken results. It has the Fleet and Rage special rules until the end of the turn and must charge an enemy unit within maximum charge range. If, during this turns shooting phase, the Helbrute is not within maximum charge range of any enemy units, it must run towards the nearest enemy unit.

P60. Ahriman
Psyker: Ahriman generates his powers from the Divination, Pyromancy and Telepathy disciplines.

P62: Lucius the Eternal
Add: Chaos Artefact: Laeran Blade: A gift to Lucius from the Primarch of the Emperors Children which once contained a Daemon of Slaanesh. The Laeran Blade is a Power Sword with the Rending special rule.

P63. Fabius Bile
Amend: The Chirugeon gives Fabius +2 Attacks, +1 Strength (included in his profile) and Feel No Pain (3+).

P64. Chainaxe
Amend Type: Melee, Shred

p67. Combat Familiar
A model with a Combat Familiar makes two additional melee attacks resolved at Strength 4 AP-.

P68. Daemonic Possession
Add: Daemonic Possession adds the Daemon Special Rule to the vehicle. The Vehicles Ballistic Skill is reduced to 3 ...
... excluding your Warlord, they are too powerful for the Daemon to overcome.

p69. Chaos Artefacts
Add: Daemon Weapon: A powerful weapon with the spirit of a Daemon contained within.
S AP Type
User 3 Melee, Daemon Weapon

P69. Dimensional Key
Amend: The Keys power may be unlocked at the start of the controlling players second turn on a roll of a 5+, reduce the required roll by one for each subsequent turn, for example, 4+ on turn 3 etc. The Keys Bearer must start on the board. On the roll of a 1 the Keys Bearer takes a Strength 4 AP 3 hit as the Power of the Warp surges through the Dimensional Key.
Remove: Terrain effects.

P91. Chaos Wargear List
Special Issue Wargear: Add
Plague Knife(1): 5pts
Doom Siren (7) 15pts
Add sub note: 7: Models with Mark of Slaanesh only
Inferno Bolts (6): 10pts
Gift of Mutation: May not be selected by Daemon Prince

Chaos Artefacts: Add
Daemon Weapon: 25pts

P94. Daemon Prince
Amend: Options: May be upgraded to be a ...

P98. Khorne Berzerkers
The Unit may take terminator armour, a combi bolter and power weapon replacing its wargear at 21 points per model and remains an elite choice. They may then take items from the Terminator Weapons section of the wargear list.

P98. Thousand Sons
The Unit may take terminator armour, a combi bolter and power weapon replacing its wargear, retaining inferno bolts at 26 points per model and remains an elite choice. They may replace their Power Weapon with a melee weapon from the Terminator Weapons section of the wargear list.

P.98 Plague Marines
The Unit may take terminator armour, a combi bolter and power weapon replacing its wargear at 29 points per model and remains an elite choice. They may then take items from the Terminator Weapons section of the wargear list.

P99. Noise Marines
The Unit may take Terminator armour, a Sonic Blaster and a power weapon, replacing its wargear at 19 points per model and remains an elite choice. They may then upgrade their Power Weapon with a melee weapon from the Terminator Weapons section of the Wargear list. One Model may replace their Sonic Blaster with a Blast Master at 30 points.

In regards to the Terminator options, I am not entirely sure how they should be priced, nor how adding Terminator armour should effect the Aspiring Champion in each squad.

Amendments have been made and have been added in Red, previous versions are listed spoilered below.

10 October 2012
4 December 2013
8 April 2014

Spoiler:

**WisdomLS**

Nice list, most of the stuff makes sense and isn't overly powerful or complicated. Also I like the FAQ presentation, easy to read and makes it seem less of a re-write.

My thoughts on some of the rules:

The mark of tzeentch change would need to be looked at I think as some units get a very cheap 5++ from it.

Sorcerer - I'm unsure here, fluff wise obviously they should get div but I'm not so sure balance wise, needs to be looked at as a codex not a unit in this case, the codex was not designed to have easy access to twinlinked and ignores cover on any unit. Perhaps just have ahriman gaining Divination.

Warp Talons & Landraider - Perfect rules, why aren't these in the book.

Chainaxe - I think Fleshbane is a little too powerful in the current MC heavy meta.

Daemonic possession - I think becoming a Daemon (and the 5++ it come with) are a little much, perhaps just causing fear making it a little harder to hit in combat sometimes. Fully agree with the no eating the warlord rule and would extend it to include all IC's or perhaps even characters. Could maybe word it so that a LOS check can be made to avoid it.

I think the doomsiren is a little powerful to make available to lots of characters especially at that points cost, also it makes Lucius less desirable.

I agree that cult terminator would be nice but upgrading the cult troops seems a very awkward way of doing it. A new unit entry would be best but as this is an FAQ style I think as an upgrade to terminators would be the best way to go. As far as points goes it would require alot of playtesting to get fair as they could easily be broken so perhaps they are best left out and hold out hope for the suppliments.

**rohansoldier**

Can't say I disagree with any of this.

The lack of cult terminators especially is a major oversight imo.

I am not sure I am too keen on the loss of access to biomancy but divination for mark of tzeentch does make a lot of sense.

How about this?

Unmarked Sorceror - As codex
Nurgle - Nurgle powers, Biomancy, Pyromancy
Tzeentch - Tzeentch powers, Divination, Pyromancy
Slaanesh - Slaanesh powers, Telepathy, Pyromancy

I think that fits the particular Gods quite well.

I especially like the Warp Screech for the Talons. Those guys need grenades and at 30pts a man there is no reason for them not to have them.

I like the changes to the dimensional key as right now you need to put the character with it on a bike, jump pack or steed to get into combat quickly.

If it was kept as is with the killing a model restriction, then I think there should be some way of stalling your reserves until the key is activated. Perhaps the warp portal is temporarily closed until the key opens it.

I am glad that there is a generic daemon weapon in your changes, but I would like to see a god specific one for nurgle, slaanesh and tzeentch as well.

Something like this perhaps:

Nurgle -

Range - melee
Strength - User
AP 3
Special - Poisoned 4+, Daemon Weapon

Slaanesh

Range - Melee
Strength - User
AP - 3
Special - Rending, Daemon Weapon, Concussive, Blind

Tzeentch (bring back the Deathscreamer from the previous codex with a bit of a twist)

Range - 24"
Strength - 4
AP - 3
Special - Fleshbane, Daemon Weapon

In the case of the Deathscreamer, the D6 is rolled for number of shots in each shooting phase and a wound is taken on a roll of 1.

I reckon these weapons would run around 25-35 pts each.

Finally, I would like to see a rule introduced that a champion who is fighting a challenge against an opponent of their own Initiative step (i.e an I 4 champion vs an I 4 marine sergeant) and they kill eachother at the same time, then the chaos character would get to roll on the boon table before they are removed as a casualty, therefore giving them a chance to be saved by their patron god if they roll + 1 wound, spawn or dark apotheosis.

**Pilau Rice**

WisdomLS wrote:
Nice list, most of the stuff makes sense and isn't overly powerful or complicated. Also I like the FAQ presentation, easy to read and makes it seem less of a re-write.

Thanks very much for the comments. I'll try to address your thoughts as best I can

WisdomLS wrote:

The mark of tzeentch change would need to be looked at I think as some units get a very cheap 5++ from it.

True, perhaps a points increase? I kept it as it was to make the mark of Tzeentch more attractive as I believe it is the least used due to the reduction it suffered.

WisdomLS wrote:
Sorcerer - I'm unsure here, fluff wise obviously they should get div but I'm not so sure balance wise, needs to be looked at as a codex not a unit in this case, the codex was not designed to have easy access to twinlinked and ignores cover on any unit. Perhaps just have ahriman gaining Divination.

But it would still be fairly restricted, although I do see your concern, will see if there are any other comments sharing your thoughts. Ahriman should certainly have it, should it be in addition to or in place of?

WisdomLS wrote:
Talons & Landraider - Perfect rules, why aren't these in the book.

Thank you

WisdomLS wrote:
Chainaxe - I think Fleshbane is a little too powerful in the current MC heavy meta.

Increase the cost again? We did go for a 6 adds an additional attack but fleshbane was the lesser of the two, it is still AP4.

WisdomLS wrote:
Daemonic possession - I think becoming a Daemon (and the 5++ it come with) are a little much, perhaps just causing fear making it a little harder to hit in combat sometimes. Fully agree with the no eating the warlord rule and would extend it to include all IC's or perhaps even characters. Could maybe word it so that a LOS check can be made to avoid it.

Here I would disagree, Fear is relatively redundant and a Rhino isn't going to get close enough to those units that it would effect. The 5++ makes it a bit more durable and the price of Daemonic Possession as it is doesn't warrant using it.

WisdomLS wrote:
I think the doomsiren is a little powerful to make available to lots of characters especially at that points cost, also it makes Lucius less desirable.

Which is one of the reasons for the Laeran Blade. It will only be available to Lords and Sorcerers with the Mark of Slaanesh so not a big increase. You can already squeeze a large number of Doom Sirens in your Slaanesh Force, why shouldn't the Lord have one to?

WisdomLS wrote:

I agree that cult terminator would be nice but upgrading the cult troops seems a very awkward way of doing it. A new unit entry would be best but as this is an FAQ style I think as an upgrade to terminators would be the best way to go. As far as points goes it would require alot of playtesting to get fair as they could easily be broken so perhaps they are best left out and hold out hope for the suppliments.

It is clunky I know, but adding it to the Elites sections would add another couple of pages to the book

Thanks again, hopefully we get some other comments to work with.

rohansoldier wrote:
Can't say I disagree with any of this.

The lack of cult terminators especially is a major oversight imo.

I am not sure I am too keen on the loss of access to biomancy but divination for mark of tzeentch does make a lot of sense.

How about this?

Unmarked Sorceror - As codex
Nurgle - Nurgle powers, Biomancy, Pyromancy
Tzeentch - Tzeentch powers, Divination, Pyromancy
Slaanesh - Slaanesh powers, Telepathy, Pyromancy

I think that fits the particular Gods quite well.

I especially like the Warp Screech for the Talons. Those guys need grenades and at 30pts a man there is no reason for them not to have them.

I like the changes to the dimensional key as right now you need to put the character with it on a bike, jump pack or steed to get into combat quickly.

If it was kept as is with the killing a model restriction, then I think there should be some way of stalling your reserves until the key is activated. Perhaps the warp portal is temporarily closed until the key opens it.

I am glad that there is a generic daemon weapon in your changes, but I would like to see a god specific one for nurgle, slaanesh and tzeentch as well.

Something like this perhaps:

Nurgle -

Range - melee
Strength - User
AP 3
Special - Poisoned 4+, Daemon Weapon

Slaanesh

Range - Melee
Strength - User
AP - 3
Special - Rending, Daemon Weapon, Concussive, Blind

Tzeentch (bring back the Deathscreamer from the previous codex with a bit of a twist)

Range - 24"
Strength - 4
AP - 3
Special - Fleshbane, Daemon Weapon

In the case of the Deathscreamer, the D6 is rolled for number of shots in each shooting phase and a wound is taken on a roll of 1.

I reckon these weapons would run around 25-35 pts each.

Finally, I would like to see a rule introduced that a champion who is fighting a challenge against an opponent of their own Initiative step (i.e an I 4 champion vs an I 4 marine sergeant) and they kill eachother at the same time, then the chaos character would get to roll on the boon table before they are removed as a casualty, therefore giving them a chance to be saved by their patron god if they roll + 1 wound, spawn or dark apotheosis.

Thanks for reading and commenting.

I didn't go with amended Sorcerers of the other Gods as I believe they are pretty accurately portrayed with the given powers in the Codex, Tzeentch was the only one that I felt needed changing to fit more inline with their background. But then WisdomLS did raise a good point.

Regards to the Daemon Weapons this is one of the reasons why I added the Doom Siren, Plague Knife and Inferno Bolts as Special Issue Wargear so a Lord could choose these, rather than a specific Marked Daemon Weapon. I also left it with a Generic Daemon weapon as no doubt, if they do decide to release God Specific supplements, these will be included there. You could argue then why did I attempt to add Cult Terminators, but these should have been included more that specific Daemon Weapons in my opinion. It is a shame that we don't have either.

**PredaKhaine**

I like the tightened up helbrute rule

I like divination on the Sorceror of Tzeentch - it actually would give Tzeentch a boost and we might see more on the table.

The problem with Berzerkers is how do you make them better? Again, atm no one really takes them for comp, and any improvements in order to make people play them more have to be limited because they can have a squad size of 20 - a small change could become game dominating. Giving the axes fleshbane gives them an edge which against most units will change a 3+ to a 2+ to wound. At the moment, no-one takes axes as the upgrade just isn't worth it - and you'd still have to pay for it.

I like the unmarked demon prince option too.
My Chaos army might take one if that was the case

**Buttons**

I think Slaanesh sorcerers and daemon princes should definitely get biomancy, noise marines were surgically modified to their current state, Fabius Bile has his mutated super marines as well, and the EC were the first legion to really dabble in messing with the genetics and bodies of space marines. Honestly I would say guys with a mark of Slaanesh should get biomancy and telepathy, pyromancy doesn't seem quite as important as modifying your body or controlling the minds of others does to Slaanesh.

**TubbyDino**

Can a swooping Daemon prince use psychic powers?

**PredaKhaine**

How about giving warp smiths and sorcerers the ability to refuse a challenge?
Or if a character is leading cultists then they could refuse?
That'd bring back scheming hq's and represents the fact that chaos marines really don't care about cultists most of the time.

**welshhoppo**

I think they should change the cult options so that when you add a mark to a CSM unit, it becomes a cult unit, much like the old CSM 3.5 book. But then you could increase this to have Terminator cults and chosen cults, with added rules for each.

**Slaanesh-Devotee**

Overall, I like the suggested changes very much. Particularly Infernal Device and the extra god-specific wargear options.

I think your upgrade to Cult Terminator style works quite well really, simple and effective.

Point out that, although it is possible to have many Tzeentch Sorcerors running around with Thousand Son units, as they are Mastery Level 1 they must take a Tzeentch power. Only Daemon Princes or HQ Sorceror's can upgrade their levels to get a chance to roll on Divination.
Hopefully that helps mitigate the concern over this.

**Dakkamite**

How about simply giving the Khorne Chainaxe Shred. Fits the fluff, and would make them a bit better.

Love the idea of cult terminators.

Wish Thousand Sons went back to having two wounds. Going off the fluff they should be extremely durable due to being nothing but armour. Alternatively, a bit of a weird idea have to-wound rolls against Thousand Sons be determined by the AP of the weapon hitting them - so a weapon with AP 3 wounds on a 3+. Emphasize the whole 'living armour' thing.

**dracpanzer**

Um, Drop Pods?

**Pilau Rice**

PredaKhaine wrote:
I like the tightened up helbrute rule

I like divination on the Sorceror of Tzeentch - it actually would give Tzeentch a boost and we might see more on the table.

The problem with Berzerkers is how do you make them better? Again, atm no one really takes them for comp, and any improvements in order to make people play them more have to be limited because they can have a squad size of 20 - a small change could become game dominating. Giving the axes fleshbane gives them an edge which against most units will change a 3+ to a 2+ to wound. At the moment, no-one takes axes as the upgrade just isn't worth it - and you'd still have to pay for it.

I like the unmarked demon prince option too.
My Chaos army might take one if that was the case

Thank you sir

Bezerkers did take a hit, what with their attacks being reduced by 1 and Furious Charge getting a knock down too. But I guess they are still ok and do what they are supposed to do, smash stuff in the first round. The Axes are still a problem, Fleshbane is too powerful maybe. Perhaps re rolls of ones, but then if you have hatred you have that already, or maybe go with the 6s idea or 6s ignore armour maybe? Fleshbane also makes Furious Charge less of a deal now thinking about it.

Buttons wrote:
I think Slaanesh sorcerers and daemon princes should definitely get biomancy, noise marines were surgically modified to their current state, Fabius Bile has his mutated super marines as well, and the EC were the first legion to really dabble in messing with the genetics and bodies of space marines. Honestly I would say guys with a mark of Slaanesh should get biomancy and telepathy, pyromancy doesn't seem quite as important as modifying your body or controlling the minds of others does to Slaanesh.

Which is why Tzeentch has the only amendment to Psychic Powers. Biomancy certainly fits with Nurgle and Slaanesh as you point out.

PredaKhaine wrote:
How about giving warp smiths and sorcerers the ability to refuse a challenge?
Or if a character is leading cultists then they could refuse?
That'd bring back scheming hq's and represents the fact that chaos marines really don't care about cultists most of the time.

I could, but I really wanted to keep the codex as close to the existing one as possible rather than add in a shed load of new rules, well, make a new codex, actually. It will be a long time until Chaos gets another one so whether we like it or not we are stuck with it and these changes that I made are at least possible and reasonable ones that GW could make.

Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
Overall, I like the suggested changes very much. Particularly Infernal Device and the extra god-specific wargear options.

I think your upgrade to Cult Terminator style works quite well really, simple and effective.

Point out that, although it is possible to have many Tzeentch Sorcerors running around with Thousand Son units, as they are Mastery Level 1 they must take a Tzeentch power. Only Daemon Princes or HQ Sorceror's can upgrade their levels to get a chance to roll on Divination.
Hopefully that helps mitigate the concern over this.

Thank you for your comments and pointing that out, as that is a good point, so Dvinination should not be such a worry.

Do you think that the pricing for the Terminators is about right?

Dakkamite wrote:
How about simply giving the Khorne Chainaxe Shred. Fits the fluff, and would make them a bit better.

Love the idea of cult terminators.

Wish Thousand Sons went back to having two wounds. Going off the fluff they should be extremely durable due to being nothing but armour. Alternatively, a bit of a weird idea have to-wound rolls against Thousand Sons be determined by the AP of the weapon hitting them - so a weapon with AP 3 wounds on a 3+. Emphasize the whole 'living armour' thing.

Thanks, I think Shred might work better actually. Same question, do you think that the pricing for the Terminators is about right?

I think there are a a lot of things that we wish would come back from previous codi, doubt it will ever happen.

dracpanzer wrote:
Um, Drop Pods?

They weren't already in the codex so I didn't add them, like I said, it's not about making a new codex, just making what we have a bit better, correcting certain things and adding obvious things that they missed. Chaos hasn't ever had Droppods so aren't likely going to have them now. It is a shame, don't get me wrong, I would love to have them included, but they weren't.

**PredaKhaine**

Besides, if you want drop pods, there are always FW dreadclaws.
Well, there would be if
A)They were actually available to buy atm from FW
B)They had good rules

But other than that there's nothing stopping you

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pilau Rice wrote:

PredaKhaine wrote:
How about giving warp smiths and sorcerers the ability to refuse a challenge?
Or if a character is leading cultists then they could refuse?
That'd bring back scheming hq's and represents the fact that chaos marines really don't care about cultists most of the time.

I could, but I really wanted to keep the codex as close to the existing one as possible rather than add in a shed load of new rules, well, make a new codex actually. It will be a long time until Chaos gets another one so whether we like it or not we are stuck with it and these changes are made are at least possible and reasonable ones that GW could make.

All you'd need to do is omit the champions of chaos rule from the sorcerer/warpsmith - it'd only be a little change...

And while doing that, you could give the champions of chaos rule to the DP. I still find it weird that the biggest champion of chaos doesn't have the rule

**Pilau Rice**

PredaKhaine wrote:

All you'd need to do is omit the champions of chaos rule from the sorcerer/warpsmith - it'd only be a little change...

And while doing that, you could give the champions of chaos rule to the DP. I still find it weird that the biggest champion of chaos doesn't have the rule

Hmm, certainly from a normal Sorcerers point of view I would agree with you, they aren't the kind of guy to put themselves forward in a fight. I would possible agree with you there, not so sure about the Warpsmith.

Anyone got any comments on this one?

I wouldn't change the DP though, I like him being able to smoosh stuff rather than be in a challenge. I think the justification behind it is that he has already proven himself to be a Champion of Chaos and has already been granted Daemonhood by the Gods therefore no more rewards.

**PredaKhaine**

Pilau Rice wrote:
PredaKhaine wrote:

All you'd need to do is omit the champions of chaos rule from the sorcerer/warpsmith - it'd only be a little change...

And while doing that, you could give the champions of chaos rule to the DP. I still find it weird that the biggest champion of chaos doesn't have the rule

Hmm, certainly from a normal Sorcerers point of view I would agree with you, they aren't the kind of guy to put themselves forward in a fight. I would possible agree with you there, not so sure about the Warpsmith.

Anyone got any comments on this one?

I wouldn't change the DP though, I like him being able to smoosh stuff rather than be in a challenge. I think the justification behind it is that he has already proven himself to be a Champion of Chaos and has already been granted Daemonhood by the Gods therefore no more rewards.

The DP still can't refuse a challenge, I don't think single model units can.

All you can do is wait and let the opponant declare a challenge, which they always do cos nobody wants you to get through their squad in one turn of cc.

**Pilau Rice**

PredaKhaine wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:
PredaKhaine wrote:

All you'd need to do is omit the champions of chaos rule from the sorcerer/warpsmith - it'd only be a little change...

And while doing that, you could give the champions of chaos rule to the DP. I still find it weird that the biggest champion of chaos doesn't have the rule

Hmm, certainly from a normal Sorcerers point of view I would agree with you, they aren't the kind of guy to put themselves forward in a fight. I would possible agree with you there, not so sure about the Warpsmith.

Anyone got any comments on this one?

I wouldn't change the DP though, I like him being able to smoosh stuff rather than be in a challenge. I think the justification behind it is that he has already proven himself to be a Champion of Chaos and has already been granted Daemonhood by the Gods therefore no more rewards.

The DP still can't refuse a challenge, I don't think single model units can.

All you can do is wait and let the opponant declare a challenge, which they always do cos nobody wants you to get through their squad in one turn of cc.

Yeah, but if he doesn't declare then it's a bonus, I would rather have the option of not having to challenge rather than being forced to challenge every time. I think GW did it this way so you don't end up with super duper Daemon Princes.

**PredaKhaine**

Fair enough

**Pilau Rice**

PredaKhaine wrote:
Fair enough

They would be awesome though.

Back to Sorcerers, would you want your ML3 Sorcerer rolling on the Boon table? I guess Sorcerers are more for a support role, hence the lack of Fearless. If you remove Champion of Chaos you would lose the roll on the Boon table, but would that be a benefit?

**rohansoldier**

I agree with sorcerors not having the champions of chaos rule although in the fluff they are sometimes as hungry for power and glory as the chaos lords.

Warpsmiths are also a support character imo like the sorceror so maybe they should be omitted too.

Lords and Apostles are the fighty characters so they definately should keep it.

Maybe there should be a rule or upgrade introduced that lets a character either re-roll the boon roll or roll twice and choose the result?

Although they would lessen the point of taking the dark apostles (which I can totally see becoming a 0-5 choice in a Word Bearers supplement like the Spiritseers are in the Iyanden one).

**pelicaniforce**

You could say "retaining inferno bolts," instead of "excluding."

Aside from that, there are still supplemental hq choices that are superfluous, and options for the troops squads that are sort of pointless from design perspective.

**PredaKhaine**

On further reflection, I think Sorcerers should still get the boon table for killing a character (with all that entails) but they should be able to not have to issue a challenge imo - thats about the least change possible from what they are now.

**Pilau Rice**

Ok, so I think I am going to add back in Champion of Chaos on the Sorcerer and just keep it as it is.

I don't think there's a better way of doing it without getting to complicated.

pelicaniforce wrote:
You could say "retaining inferno bolts," instead of "excluding."

Aside from that, there are still supplemental hq choices that are superfluous, and options for the troops squads that are sort of pointless from design perspective.

That would be a better way of putting it yep

Can you explain your last comment a bit further please?

**pelicaniforce**

Sure. Sometimes people write army books like this. People wanted to know where the chaos techmarines were in the army list. So now there are, cosmetically, chaos techmarines. The problem is that they are hard to care about.

So the tweaks do not fix some of those problems with the codex, and they also sort of operate on those principals:

**Pilau Rice**

Certain things I'm not going to be able to change by merely tweaking. If I wanted to do a full overhaul I could address these issues, but it's not something that I am going to do as I don't believe GW would make radical changes to the existing codex. Nothing I have done is to extreme to believe that GW wouldn't consider making the changes. That's my way of thinking at least and part of the reason why I have done it as an FAQ rather than a new Chaos Space Marine Codex.

**Slaanesh-Devotee**

I think, going from your FAQ style overhaul, you should leave Champion of Chaos as it is for now, both the rule and who it applies to. Sorting it out would be a much more complex rule 'tweaking'.

**Dakkamite**

Thanks, I think Shred might work better actually. Same question, do you think that the pricing for the Terminators is about right?

I think there are a a lot of things that we wish would come back from previous codi, doubt it will ever happen.

Sorry man, don't have enough experience with the codex to say

**Pilau Rice**

In that case then, I think it's done. Thanks to everyone who commented and added their opinion!

I guess it's ok then as there hasn't been any negativity about it. Hopefully there are a few more comments and interest.

Predakhaine and myself are planning on giving it a proper run through and putting it into action so will keep you guys posted.

Expect Deep Striking Noise Marine Terminators without scatter, Daemonic Possessed Land Raiders and Tzeentch Sorcerers with Divination

**Exergy**

PredaKhaine wrote:
Pilau Rice wrote:
PredaKhaine wrote:

All you'd need to do is omit the champions of chaos rule from the sorcerer/warpsmith - it'd only be a little change...

And while doing that, you could give the champions of chaos rule to the DP. I still find it weird that the biggest champion of chaos doesn't have the rule

Hmm, certainly from a normal Sorcerers point of view I would agree with you, they aren't the kind of guy to put themselves forward in a fight. I would possible agree with you there, not so sure about the Warpsmith.

Anyone got any comments on this one?

I wouldn't change the DP though, I like him being able to smoosh stuff rather than be in a challenge. I think the justification behind it is that he has already proven himself to be a Champion of Chaos and has already been granted Daemonhood by the Gods therefore no more rewards.

The DP still can't refuse a challenge, I don't think single model units can.

All you can do is wait and let the opponant declare a challenge, which they always do cos nobody wants you to get through their squad in one turn of cc.

The DP need not make one, so if you have an allied unit fighting with him, they can make or recieve challenges instead.

**jifel**

I'd love to see Legion tactics more than anything else (see Chapter tactics from C:SM)

My ideas: Note that in certain instances, the below will produce "free upgrades" (-1 points to a 1 point upgrade) This is intended.

Emperor's Children: All units taken in multiples of 6 gain a -1 point per model to the "mark of Slaanesh" upgrade.
Devastators may purchase Sonic Blasters at the same price as Noise Marines

World Eaters: All units taken in multiples of 8 gain a -1 point per model to the "mark of Khorne" upgrade
The army gains +1 to all Deny the Witch rolls

Death Guard: All units taken in multiples of 7 gain a -1 point per model to the "mark of nurgle" upgrade
All template weapons gain poison (4+) and improve their AP by (Ap. 5 -> Ap. 4)

Thousand Sons: All units taken in multiples of 9 gain a -1 point reduction to the "mark of Tzeentch" upgrade
Any model may purchase "Inferno bolts" for 2 points. If one model in a unit does so, the entire unit must. All bolt weapons (pistol, guns, combi, Heavy) gain Ap. 3

Iron Warriors: One Fast attack slot may be exchanged for an extra Fortification slot in the primary detachment.
All Iron Warriors have the Tank Hunter (buildings) rule. In addition, your opponent receives -1 to all cover saves provided by Fortifications.

Alpha Legion: All units without the Bulky or extremely bulky special rule gain the Infiltrate rule (Vehicles may not benefit from this)
After choosing table sides, before Deployment, write down two pieces of terrain anywhere on the board. Reveal at any time. Once revealed, they become Dangerous terrain, which may not be ignored by Move through cover. In addition, armor saves must be rerolled against wounds caused by the sabotaged terrain.

Night Lords: All models gain the "Fear" and "Night Vision" special rules. On any turn a Night Lord unit makes a charge, an enemy unit must reroll successful Leadership checks. Units usually immune to Fear must take the Leadership check, but may never be forced to reroll it.
Night Lords may choose for the first turn to be Night Fight, and on a 4+ the second turn is also Night Fight.

Word Bearers: Before reserves are rolled for, any character (and as many as you wish) may take a Leadership check. If passed, Daemon units that Deepstrike within 6" of that Word Bearer Character do not scatter.
All Word Bearer units gain the "Crusader" special rule.

Black Legion: All Black Legion units taken in multiples of ten gain a -1 point per model reduction to the "Veterans of the Long War" special rule.
All Black Legion models reroll 1s to wound when attacking Space Marines (including variant codexes), Imperial Guard, or Sisters of Battle

Red Corsairs: When the primary detachment, Chaos Daemons become Allies of Convenience, and Space Marines become Battle brothers. Note that Special characters from C:SM may not be taken. Space Marines replace ATSKNF and Chapter Tactics with Legion Tactics (Red corsairs). Note that units with the "Daemon" special rule may not be included in a Red corsairs detachment.
Red corsairs may embark in their Allies dedicated transports if Battle Brothers, and vice versa. Red Corsairs (and Space Marine allies) gain the Stubborn special rule but may neve purchase "Veterans of the Long War"