Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Watching that video opened my eyes to just how unbalanced this game is. It is so unbalanced, poorly play tested, and in blatant "cash grab" mode that
you would have to be blind to not see it. It is right there in front of you folks, GW isn't even trying to hide their intentions.

1 - The Escalation book is mostly just a copy paste of Apocalypse, with a couple pages around a new FOC to shoe horn this stuff in.
2 - This WAS NOT play tested. It is so very obvious - they just rolled it right out the door steaming to drum up sales.
3 - Super heavies have no place in a normal game of 40K - that is what Apocalypse is for. Making this an "official" release is nothing more than a heavy handed
approach to increase sales without any regard to gameplay or balance.

I have played this game for a long time, and I am rapidly losing interest. I just have no interest in playing against a Titan that can level cities in the fluff, in a normal
game of 40K that should be skirmish level. It can be beaten with trickery, witchery, and list tailoring - but that army would vacuum most players right off the table virtually
instantly. There is simply no defense besides sketchy reserve shenanigans, trying to drop in melta weaponry at close range, or praying you can tarpit a model that can move 36".

What has to happen at this point, are the major tournament organizers are going to have to come together as a group and fix this game. Now is not the time to be splintered and disjointed.
The community needs a concise and accepted set of written guidelines on what is acceptable and unacceptable from a competitive standpoint. As much as I hate to say it, comp is the only
way going forward.

GW has completely abandoned this game from a balanced gameplay perspective. They won't even FAQ major questions that have been sitting for months, and aren't even play testing these
rapid releases. There is just no way they are; the rules are nothing more than marketing tools at this point.

The only way it is going to get better is if we as a community fix it. Reecius, you have my support.

We tried this out of interest (just the titan) early this year. Normal 40K rules on a big board. 4 players (2 a side) and the titan (same one as in the vid) did all the killing. Boring game. When we heard what was coming in this book, we knew exactly what to expect.

Yeah as Swastakowey stated, we played a 40k game with a titan. The Revenant alone won the battle, I would go as far as speculate that the revenant probably didn't even need our eldar supporting it.

Just recently I faced a friend and his necrons. The only reason he killed my revenant, was because he ignored every other single unit in my army and went for it. By the time he killed it the rest of my eldar were mopping up the enemy.

While it's fun that has a relentless killing machine, it needs to face other titans. Not target practice.

I've had no end to terrible once sided battles since the start of sixth and the rise of some seriously rubbish rules writing. (6th ed works but the codexes are getting beyond help). These new escalation rules are the icing on the cake for me. This game needs some serious attention and someone needs to throw out the game design team bar Phil kelly and a few select others. Matt ward not included. He can go.

 InventionThirteen wrote:
I've had no end to terrible once sided battles since the start of sixth and the rise of some seriously rubbish rules writing. (6th ed works but the codexes are getting beyond help). These new escalation rules are the icing on the cake for me. This game needs some serious attention and someone needs to throw out the game design team bar Phil kelly and a few select others. Matt ward not included. He can go.

I'd have to agree. 6th edition was awesome when it came out, so many cool rules and so on. But then all these new codices came out and it all started to go downhill. The codices really bring out the flaws in the rules.

It's disappointing if anything. There are a few new players in my group that have been sorely disheartened when their new space marine captain kills himself because of some impossible leadership test for mindshackle scarabs (yes necrons aren't a sixth ed codex but they sure as heck were written for it) or their army is obliterated by wave serpent spam. Wow my Archon used to be feared, I don't think he's won a single challenge since forever and he's suppose to be one of the nastiest individuals in the galaxy! After participating in a tournament at my local GW where a kid won most of his matches with centurions (one unit is pretty much all he needed) it became obvious that my well painted dark eldar would be no match against any army there as long as I played fair and didn't spam one unit over and over. Bring back the balance so we can have our weekend matches that went either way and had tense moments that created memories. We just look at the match up and armies and can tell now who's going to win (the guy with the shiny new expensive robowarriortanklord).

Aftermath. wrote:
3 - Super heavies have no place in a normal game of 40K - that is what Apocalypse is for.

Quite a broad statement that I completely dispute.

Strength D has no place in 40K - normal or otherwise. Super-heavies themselves are fine.

A baneblade without D weapons is just a big tank that's tougher and can shoot more. At that price, it's perfectly fine then.

Is escalation a supplement, or approved new rules?

Is it said anywhere in the new books that they are non-consensual additional rules, or are they, like Planetstrike and Cityfight were in 5th, supplements to be played with mutual player approval, as a clip on addition to the rules?

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Is escalation a supplement, or approved new rules?

Is it said anywhere in the new books that they are non-consensual additional rules, or are they, like Planetstrike and Cityfight were in 5th, supplements to be played with mutual player approval, as a clip on addition to the rules?

Aren't supplements approved new rules? Or do I need my opponents permission to play my Black Legion, Farsight Enclave or Iron Hands too? I thought Cities of Death and Planetstrike were expansions, rather than supplements?

Games Workshop need to be clear on these things.

Warhammer 40,000: Escalation contains full rules for adding super-heavy vehicles and gargantuan creatures to every Warhammer 40,000 army. This means you can now use these massive models in games of Warhammer 40,000 as well as games of Apocalypse.

From the website. So my take is that Escalation is the new 40K.


Edit: Fixed the quote from the GW site

 InventionThirteen wrote:
I've had no end to terrible once sided battles since the start of second and the rise of some seriously rubbish rules writing. (2nd ed works but the codexes are getting beyond help). These new rules are the icing on the cake for me.

Its like I've seen this before...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 InventionThirteen wrote:
I've had no end to terrible once sided battles since the start of third and the rise of some seriously rubbish rules writing. (3rd ed works but the codexes are getting beyond help). These new rules are the icing on the cake for me.

Its like I've seen this before...

 fishy bob wrote:

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Is escalation a supplement, or approved new rules?

Is it said anywhere in the new books that they are non-consensual additional rules, or are they, like Planetstrike and Cityfight were in 5th, supplements to be played with mutual player approval, as a clip on addition to the rules?

Aren't supplements approved new rules? Or do I need my opponents permission to play my Black Legion, Farsight Enclave or Iron Hands too? I thought Cities of Death and Planetstrike were expansions, rather than supplements?

Games Workshop need to be clear on these things.

Warhammer 40,000: Escalation contains full rules for adding super-heavy vehicles and gargantuan creatures to every Warhammer 40,000 army. This means you can now use these massive models in games of Warhammer 40,000 as well as games of Apocalypse.

From the website. So my take is that Escalation is the new 40K.


Edit: Fixed the quote from the GW site

I would wish for a GW clarity on these things, but they will shrug and suggest you 'use common sense'.

My common sense tells me that rules supplements are different to codices and mini-dexes, that I should not expect to see a super heavy set down on the table in a pick up game but that I should expect an Iron Hands or Death Korps army to show up, as they are both intended to play straight from the 6th edition book's rules.

Escalation is, from what I see (and I certainly won't be buying it), a supplement of additional rules for the game, not Apocalypse but apocalypse-lite. The rulebook has not been updated with this book, it's just an optional addition.

On the GW website, the description for Escalation reads: This 96-page, full colour, hardback supplement contains:

So it supplements the rules, rather than updates automatically. This is different to a 'codex supplement' which you have to possess the original codex to use, but again, I would expect some form of warning before being confronted with a codex supplement army. The difference being I would agree to fighting a codex supplement, I would not agree to a superheavy unless I was in the right mood for a silly game.

So, if you go to a store or club and someone maniacally cackles and slams a titan onto the table, you can smile back and insist they put it back and provide you with a sensible list to fight, according to their codex.

As for tournaments, there really isn't a need to specifically exclude these escalation rules, they are a supplement and therefore not included unless stated. So show up with your shadowsword and expect to sit it out on account of stupidity.

You are forgetting that even if super heavies are taken away this game has turned to unbalanced crap.
Right now this is 40k eldar and tau edition all made to sell transport and mini titan kits with utter disregard for balance and "fun".

Hopefully this will bite geedub in lowered SM sales and people dropping from this game overall to the benefit of all those other smaller tabletop games that often come with way more balanced rules.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
So, if you go to a store or club and someone maniacally cackles and slams a titan onto the table, you can smile back and insist they put it back and provide you with a sensible list to fight, according to their codex.

We need to make it clear what Escalation actually is. It's not "Titans a'plenty!", it's anything from the Escalation book. The only titans in there are Revenants (which have always been a problem), the Khorndozer and Stompas. There are no Warhounds or Reavers or Phantom Titans or Hierophants. No one's going to show up and say "I'm bringing a Lord of War" and plonk a Reaver down across the table from you. There is a limited pool of units legal for Escalation, and they're in the book. Nothing more, nothing less.

And it's like any Codex. It's part of the rules, not something like Planetstrike or Cities of Death.

Hi

H.B.M.C. Hit the nail in the head - D weapons have no place in the game.

To me, simply amend D to st 10, ap 1. If you feel that is too much of a nerf, then discuss adding lance or melta or ignores cover or whatever so that they are really potent, but not the madness they are now.

Then again, D weapons do counter the 2++ re-rollable nonsense... Which also should not exist. If the amendment/comp ball starts to roll, this needs to be dealt with as well.

Cheers,
Nate

We have more dataslates, actual widespread gaming, a major psychic-power-unit question mark codex release and more coming over the next thirty or so days. I think folks should let the dust settle a little first.

Personally, I DO think anyone advocating that GW playtests and has any motive besides keeping people guessing and buying needs to reconsider at this point. I hope they notice how many serious and committed players are starting to question them where they didn't before. I'm also concerned when the "anti power gamer" types start to realize an even less balanced game is even better and more interesting for power gamers, and horrible for those looking to simply have fun games.

If changes do happen, I only hope TOs can get on the same page so what's legal or not doesn't change every major event you go to. I also hope people realize when even GW HQ's own internal TOs have no idea what's going on, it's not really a bad thing when external TOs are taking the time and energy to try and make sense of it all.

As an aside, what units can get 2++ re-rollable saves, and wow?

Baron in a fortuned jetseer squad and screamers with 4 heralds of tzeench with grimoire and the 4++ psychic power are the lists people are talking about. Fortune lets you reroll saves, baron has a stock 2+ shadowfield or whatever it is called. Being a daemon of tzeench gives you the ability to reroll failed saves of 1, and since that's the only thing that fails on a 2++, they can reroll it.

Any Daemon of Tzeentch unit in combination with the Forewarning Psychic power, and Grimoir of True Names

Any DE shadow field character attached to a fortuned unit.

And I presume you stick Baron out the front and he just takes all the hits, right?

Yep, but that is only if they have ignores cover weaponry, because with conceal from the warlocks the squad gets 2+ cover as well.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Is escalation a supplement, or approved new rules?

Is it said anywhere in the new books that they are non-consensual additional rules, or are they, like Planetstrike and Cityfight were in 5th, supplements to be played with mutual player approval, as a clip on addition to the rules?

THis is the only real question, isn't it?

And the reaction so far from GW is indeed that these are additional rules that they won't use in their own tournaments

The seer squad also usually has a 2+ armour thanks to protect.

As for the original post, I urge people to remain calm. The above video was designed from the start to push the agenda that 40k is broken. They admitted they didn't know the rules at a couple points. Gave the model a massive fire arc, didn't hallucinate it, had no defense/plan vs. it and the Chaos player actually won although they didn't mention that (he won the primary due to hull points inflicted, secondary as a draw, and the eldar got some battle points from first blood and linebreaker final score at the tournament would have been 5 (or 6 if belkor survived the stomp to 3.)

My gut says that Escalation and D-weapons don't belong but this video doesn't help. Maybe a smattering of D-weapons is what is needed to stop some of those 2+ reroll units, I doubt it, but I would like to see some actual games rather than white dwarf designed battle reports meant to push product (or in this case not push it)

I hope that escalation will be thrown back into the void where it belongs. I absolutely love Apoc games, but this has no place in smaller games. All it does is help those with resources to own the titans with the most D weapons, that's not a fun game.

Seeing as all rules are inherently optional (If you bring a Titan and no one will play you, then Escalation rules are indeed optional due to lack of ability to play) I see this "supplement" being banned at almost all tournaments.

I don't see why it matters what GW says considering they don't run events in the US, so to hell with them and their blatant game breaking money grabs.

So I'm gonna be honest. I'll just be refusing games with super heavies in them, and aren't specifically "Apocalypse" games.

It will go the way of planetstrike and Cities of Death hopefully, and be a rare occurance at best, and usually only when asked for.

 iGuy91 wrote:
So I'm gonna be honest. I'll just be refusing games with super heavies in them, and aren't specifically "Apocalypse" games.

It's really as simple as this.

Agreed, I don't think escalation will end up being a thing in tournament or even most pick-up play. I also think the early outcry will be mostly from non-tourney-type players who don't realize if they broadly legalize Escalation, they're the ones who are going to get frustrated out of the hobby ... not the tournament goers. I'll keep with the refrain ... the less balance and the more whackiness, the more it benefits power gamers and utterly punishes "typical" or so-called "casual" gamers.

Agree, I hate escalation to a huge degree.. However, if its legal it's not me who will suffer..

I own Revenant titans and others :p which means I auto win 40k!! Congratulations.

 InventionThirteen wrote:
I've had no end to terrible once sided battles since the start of sixth and the rise of some seriously rubbish rules writing. (6th ed works but the codexes are getting beyond help). These new escalation rules are the icing on the cake for me. This game needs some serious attention and someone needs to throw out the game design team bar Phil kelly and a few select others. Matt ward not included. He can go.

Yes Phil Kelly, responsible for the TWO of the main xenos that's killing everyone in this edition, with Eldar (once again like his 4th edition Skimmerspam), and Daemons (Screamerstar!) And you want to keep him over the guy whose fluff is bad, and who hasn't broken an edition outright. (Fantasy not included) GK were beatable, so were Necrons by comparison to what Kelly has put out.

Yeah, I don't see why Phil Kelly gets a pass.. His books have good fluff but lack balance, I mean look at Space Wolves. Upon release that book had like 60% worthless units and almost instantly was regulated to missile spam/grey hunter spam.