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Certainly, but the fluff exercises restraint. It draws on real world facist and totalitarian (and communist; see the Tau) concepts without directly and explicitly referencing them in a tasteless way.

Bringing actual Nazis or KKK symbolism and imagery into the game has two issues.

1. It actually conflicts with the fluff. This makes it stand out more.
2. It imports something shocking and offensive into an escapist game world for no really good reasion.

While I'm a staunch advocate of free expression, I don't go walking down the main street of my town, in front of children, screaming obscenities as a way of expressing my freedom. It would be tasteless and dumb.

Similarly, painting a KKK army as a way to be shocking and because I thought it was humorous would be dumb. Even if my friends knew I wasn't actually a bigot, strangers would never know. Random customers and parents in stores would look at me like a leper. Store owners could easily justify banning my army (and might even ban me!) from their stores to avoid customers getting the wrong idea about the hobby, and casting us all in disrepute.

W40k like everything else is a text. We read it and we view it and yes on the surface it is a tabletop game in a fictional dystopia where models fight, but on a deeper level it is a mirror (albeit somewhat perplexing mirror) of what is going on today in the here and now.

No, it's really not. It's a game. I don't play 40k to get politics shoved down my throat, and even reading 40k novels/Codices would tell you that the parallels are at best so shallow and absurdly convoluted that to even make the statement that it's a "mirror of what is going on today" is a logical fallacy.

some catchwords that might be used to show the similarities between these worlds: Imperialism, Capitalism, Xenophobia, Racism, Warmongering.
This is my deep level view of warhammer, if you disagree with me fully about this then this debate cannot continue and will end up with people upset.

What debate? All you're trying to do is get across the point of "free speech free speech free speech" and that themes exist within 40k that -shock gasp- are similar to the real world.
It's almost as though the authors of 40k live in the same world as the rest of us, and their experiences and knowledge have somehow shaped or influenced that.

I am not trying to get across just Free Speech. I am trying to get across that Warhammer is MUCH deeper than you realize. You want to take it at face value, fine I will respect your right to do so and I also will not blatantly model units that reflect real world stuff (like Tallarn with meltabombs or demo charges). I feel as if you are attacking me. You have given me no real reasoning as to why THESE THINGS DO NOT BLOODY BELONG IN THE GAME. that is your view, I just want to know why?

The fact is that the parallels are strong and that this game (how we play, how we model, how we paint) might actually have an impact on us and the real world. The fluff reflects this.
Hmmm you must not have studied literary theory in college.

Kanluwen wrote:Actually, there's not. The Interex and several other "differently evolved humans" were not destroyed just because they were "different". They were tainted, so far removed from humanity that there was no bringing them back into the fold. In many cases, they'd regressed to the point of barbarianism or they'd transcended the level of the Imperium itself.

You don't understand the idea of "racial purity" do you? The whole point of the IOM: you are either like us, or you are Xenos and deserve to be destroyed.

There is no room in the 40k universe for imperfect humans. If they don't conform to the Emperor's ideal, they are destroyed.

Kanluwen wrote:They've also got pretty strong parallels with every freaking conquering culture in existence when it comes to "destroying the entire civilization" of those they come across.
Do you think the Spanish destroyed the Mesoamerican cultures because they were "different"?
No. They wanted the resources and land.
How about the early English settlers at Jamestown?

Do you think that the Imperium wants to destroy the other races because they want their resources? Not only no, but hell no. They want to destroy the other races solely because they're different.

The Imperium exemplifies xenophobia.

So a group of men running about in robes and hoods with crosses and torches burning those who arent "pure" are now racist?
feth, guess thats why no one plays witch hunters anymore :(

If anything they would resemble the klan more so than white gobbo's.

Grey Knight Luke wrote:

I am not trying to get across just Free Speech. I am trying to get across that Warhammer is MUCH deeper than you realize.

Yeahh...you have no clue who you're talking to, so I'll just say this: I'm aware that Warhammer, as a setting, is a deep place. That's part of why I enjoy it.

However, you bringing real world examples of issues within the game onto the tabletop is just a blatant attempt at showing how tasteless and attention seeking you are.

You want to take it at face value, fine I will respect your right to do so and I also will not blatantly model units that reflect real world stuff (like Tallarn with meltabombs or demo charges).

Modeling a Tallarn with meltabombs or demo charges would just make you look stupid, since the Tallarn are based off of the British LRDG during WWII and not Muslim extremists.

I feel as if you are attacking me. You have given me no real reasoning as to why THESE THINGS DO NOT BLOODY BELONG IN THE GAME. that is your view, I just want to know why?

We've given you every reason why "THESE THINGS DO NOT BLOODY BELONG IN THE GAME".

The fact is that the parallels are strong and that this game (how we play, how we model, how we paint) might actually have an impact on us and the real world. The fluff reflects this.

Yes, because the UN is waiting for 40k players to decide if Orks really have rights or not. Clearly, the tabletop has a huge impact on the real world.

Hmmm you must not have studied literary theory in college.

And just when I thought you couldn't look any more ridiculous, you pulled it off!
Congrats!

-Im not worried to be called racist if im playing this army ( because the people im playing with know im the sweetest )

-What i AM worried about is, for any reasons at all maybe . from american buyer point of view , would there be any chance
of racism been considered ( because of the slavery history in the past there are still some sensitivities ) , which might effect me reselling my painted army.

- Like some have mentioned and i agreed with , warhammer fluff is i guess , grim dark , so lots of head trophies , hanging dead bodies , etc etc.
I didnt want some to take it as , some display of KKK "acts" . Like white robe itself is probably safe , but combine the small details together , i dont want any misunderstandings.

So far i like Smurf suggestions the most so i'll take that advice ( maybe blue tatoos ) . With some checkers to go along the command groups.
The rest of rank and file will stay plain white robe only cuz... ( shhhh im lazy :'P )

There are no right or wrong answers to this , all i wanted was to see how the opinion goes, and i deem it safe enough for me to go with the project.

Thanks

LunaHound wrote:

-Im not worried to be called racist if im playing this army ( because the people im playing with know im the sweetest )

-What i AM worried about is, for any reasons at all maybe . from american buyer point of view , would there be any chance
of racism been considered ( because of the slavery history in the past there are still some sensitivities ) , which might effect me reselling my painted army.

- Like some have mentioned and i agreed with , warhammer fluff is i guess , grim dark , so lots of head trophies , hanging dead bodies , etc etc.
I didnt want some to take it as , some display of KKK "acts" . Like white robe itself is probably safe , but combine the small details together , i dont want any misunderstandings.

So far i like Smurf suggestions the most so i'll take that advice ( maybe blue tatoos ) . With some checkers to go along the command groups.
The rest of rank and file will stay plain white robe only cuz... ( shhhh im lazy :'P )

I'd say add some red, yellow, and blue jags on the lower hem of the robe to break up the 'plain white'.
They'd break up the white, serve as unit designators, and allow for some more spot color on there.

So this means you will be painting heavily again? this i like
Actually done some painting tonight after work, even if it was re-doing the failed attempt at a GUO's skin lol.

Also, the smurf idea sounds pretty amusing, blue warpaint is actually quite nice.



However, avoid the BFSP shaman.
Doesent look too bad, but for someone looking for an argument it might be a spark.

Not my pics, googled it:







Edit: Kan!
Its Dags mate, not jags
(Dag -- Dog tooth pattern)

Jags work, dangnabbit!

Dont worry about it , i got the paint scheme covered.

Like i mentioned , i picked SKull Pass goblins to paint because im a LAZY painter. I want to paint 1 whole squad in one go ( factory assembly line style! ) and dont want to spend too much effort on rank and files.

The main priority is keeping it simple and fast hence its either white or black robed. ( primer does 60% of the painting HOPEFULLY )

A gobbo in a jag? that i would pay to see


Luna, i see your point with factory painting.
Should be a case of a simple white undercoat then black wash + highlights.

If you play it right, painting them with 100% washes is more than possible lol.
Im assuming you do the same as me and paint the front rank to TT standard and the rest will be hidden?

Okay, folks need to dial back the rhetoric and STOP making this personal. It's just a discussion. It's not actually life and death. If you are so wrapped up in it that you feel the need to be hostile or negatively-characterize someone else, take a break from the computer, relax with the cold, refreshing beverage of your choice, and come back to it later with a cooler head. Any further rudeness or hostility will result in suspensions or other disciplinary action.

There are far too many situations involving far too many things in life where people will interpret something completely out of context, intended or not, which you will never be able to control.

If the first inclination for someone to think that a bunch of short green men dressed in white robes reminds that person of the KKK, that's their own hang up.

Granted someone will complain sooner or later, its the nature of the game. But it should be fine.

Jackal wrote:A gobbo in a jag? that i would pay to see


Luna, i see your point with factory painting.
Should be a case of a simple white undercoat then black wash + highlights.

If you play it right, painting them with 100% washes is more than possible lol.
Im assuming you do the same as me and paint the front rank to TT standard and the rest will be hidden?

Ahh hmm.... thinking about that... i have NO idea if i would paint front rank to better standard.
Mainly because i have never completely painted warhammer fantasy as a squad rofl ( minus my tomb guard skeletons which is just primer + browon wash T-T )

Yep i have painted a skulll passs gobo via wash only before, this was back when they included a free one in White Dwarf magazine lol
didnt work too well as i think my primer was enamel.

Any further rudeness or hostility will result in suspensions or other disciplinary action.

I get no warning 1st? :(
this makes me a sad panda.

Ahh hmm.... thinking about that... i have NO idea if i would paint front rank to better standard.
Mainly because i have never completely painted warhammer fantasy as a squad rofl ( minus my tomb guard skeletons which is just primer + browon wash T-T )

If you need lazyness tips im allways here to help
With TK's you can usually get away with;

White undercoat.
Brown wash.
Black wash.
Drybrush bleached bone.
Light drybrush of skull white.

for the front rank highlight instead of Dbrush lol.



About the only real sizes unit ive painted for fantasy was a unit of 50 saurus, but they are pretty quick to paint.

Yep i have painted a skulll passs gobo via wash only before, this was back when they included a free one in White Dwarf magazine lol
didnt work too well as i think my primer was enamel.

Lol, that may explain why
If im washing only, then ill use GW primer as its slightly gritty.
Allows the wash to stick to it pretty well.
Things like army painter tend to be too smooth and it runs off.

To make a public apology, I will say this.

None of my rhetoric was aimed actually at you, Grey Knight Luke. This was nothing personally against you, and I thought I had evidenced that well but looking back I can see where you might have gotten that idea.

I find anyone who feels the need to shoehorn these kinds of themes(racism, genocide, slavery, et all) into the tabletop to be trying to cramp the reason why I play: to have some time away from the real world where such things are a very real issue.

Better not play DE then mate.
they even have slave models.

also, wouldnt any form of war pretty much be genocide?

Jackal wrote:Better not play DE then mate.
they even have slave models.

The slave models serve no real purpose outside of objective markers. They're not something you'll see every game, which kind of pushes them back to the 'Oh, it's those models again' factor.

also, wouldn't any form of war pretty much be genocide?

Tricky question to answer.
"Genocide" is the systematic extermination of an ethnic group for one reason or another.

War isn't really genocide in that regards. But genocides do happen during wars, so the two aren't entirely unrelated.

Would an army of white robed Night Goblins be considered racist ?

Yes, clearly. Black Orks would be very offended.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jackal wrote:

Any further rudeness or hostility will result in suspensions or other disciplinary action.

I get no warning 1st? :(
this makes me a sad panda.

A warning is the lowest level of disciplinary action. The red text post was a public warning to ask people to calm down and be nice to each other.

Jackal wrote:

Ahh hmm.... thinking about that... i have NO idea if i would paint front rank to better standard.
Mainly because i have never completely painted warhammer fantasy as a squad rofl ( minus my tomb guard skeletons which is just primer + browon wash T-T )

If you need lazyness tips im allways here to help
With TK's you can usually get away with; <snip>

Good advice. Yes, especially with really large units in WH, it's often a good idea to do quick, assembly-line painting for the unit, but put a bit more time, attention and detail onto the front rank of models. Maybe the guys on the outside edges/rear too, if you have the time and inclination.

Jackal wrote:

Yep i have painted a skulll passs gobo via wash only before, this was back when they included a free one in White Dwarf magazine lol
didnt work too well as i think my primer was enamel.

Lol, that may explain why
If im washing only, then ill use GW primer as its slightly gritty.
Allows the wash to stick to it pretty well.
Things like army painter tend to be too smooth and it runs off.

Aha! Maybe that's part of the problem I had! I recently primed a couple of Land Raiders red with Army Painter pure red and then tried washing them all over for some depth, and had nasty, blotchy results. Ugh.

War isn't really genocide in that regards. But genocides do happen during wars, so the two aren't entirely unrelated.

So, what would the entire point behind a war be?
From what ive seen, its simply for a single race to gain supremacy over the rest, usually through the removing of lesser races.

Squats being a prime example of this.






Augustus, that is no longer PC my friend
The current correct term would be "coloured orks" as you cant refer to a person by a colour

However, orks are plants, do they have the same rights?
They are living, but would the be defined as a person?

Warhammer is a game of controversies, who cares. But they don't really look like them.

..but after reading this thread I fear greatly about my game I have been working on for 5 years now...



*duck*

Jackal wrote:

War isn't really genocide in that regards. But genocides do happen during wars, so the two aren't entirely unrelated.

So, what would the entire point behind a war be?

Any number of reasons. Like I said: genocide is a very systematic process intended entirely to remove all trace of a culture, ethnicity, or religious sect.

From what I've seen, its simply for a single race to gain supremacy over the rest, usually through the removing of lesser races.

War, as I said, can be fought for any number of reasons.
Religion, race, resources, differing policies, ideologies, and more. Wars aren't, however necessarily, fought to completely 'remove' lesser races.
That complete removal and extermination is a necessity for something to be called genocide.

Squats being a prime example of this.

Squats were devoured by a Hive Fleet. This wasn't to 'gain supremacy' and is like saying that a lion is racist for eating a zebra.

Surtur wrote:People have problems with zombie nazis so go figure that.

People on the internet need something to get mad about.

Because getting mad on the internet is serious.

Those people never actually leave their basement anyway.

Move On.

Any number of reasons. Like I said: genocide is a very systematic process intended entirely to remove all trace of a culture, ethnicity, or religious sect.

Aka, witch hunters.

That complete removal and extermination is a necessity for something to be called genocide.

Not 100%
Hitler would have been charged with genocide along with other countless war crimes, but he did not fit such criteria.

Squats were devoured by a Hive Fleet. This wasn't to 'gain supremacy' and is like saying that a lion is racist for eating a zebra.

See you above point mate
And in theory, they did gain supremacy.
An entire race that stood in thier way was removed.

Nature works with common instincts, the hive mind is a thinking organism that sets out with multiple plans.
While pack metality may involve planning to some degree, its nowhere near close to the hive mind.

Jackal wrote:

Any number of reasons. Like I said: genocide is a very systematic process intended entirely to remove all trace of a culture, ethnicity, or religious sect.

Aka, witch hunters.

Nope. Different concept. When you conflate other nasty crimes/behaviors with genocide, you lessen the impact/weaken the horror of actual genocide.

Jackal wrote:

That complete removal and extermination is a necessity for something to be called genocide.

Not 100%
Hitler would have been charged with genocide along with other countless war crimes, but he did not fit such criteria.

Attempted genocide falls under the same idea.

Jackal wrote:

Squats were devoured by a Hive Fleet. This wasn't to 'gain supremacy' and is like saying that a lion is racist for eating a zebra.

See you above point mate
And in theory, they did gain supremacy.
An entire race that stood in thier way was removed.

Nature works with common instincts, the hive mind is a thinking organism that sets out with multiple plans.
While pack metality may involve planning to some degree, its nowhere near close to the hive mind.

This is a more interesting point. Still, the Hive Mind is not trying to wipe out races or peoples because of cultural, ethnic, or religious differences. It is just trying to consume all the biomass it can, and doesn't care how many species it exterminates in the process. The question of intent and purpose is key.

Kanluwen wrote:
Squats were devoured by a Hive Fleet. This wasn't to 'gain supremacy' and is like saying that a lion is racist for eating a zebra.

um HerpaDerpaNo.

Squats were written out of the game by a design Studio that's too clueless/stupid/uncreative to do anything with them because they spend all their time on Rainbow Skittles Speds Mahreens that are marketed to kids and social misfits that need to win at toy soldiers to validate their miserable lives.

Can we leave the OT discussion out of the thread ? I really dont like to keep asking

Jackal wrote:

Any number of reasons. Like I said: genocide is a very systematic process intended entirely to remove all trace of a culture, ethnicity, or religious sect.

Aka, witch hunters.

Not really if you're referring to the 40k witchhunters.
There's not a "culture, ethnicity, or religious sect" in their purview. There may be cults, but they're not actual 'religions'.

That complete removal and extermination is a necessity for something to be called genocide.

Not 100%
Hitler would have been charged with genocide along with other countless war crimes, but he did not fit such criteria.

Yes, mostly because genocide wasn't a concept that existed at the time. It wasn't until 1948 that a legal definition was set, and the term was coined in 1946 during the Nuremburg Trials.

Squats were devoured by a Hive Fleet. This wasn't to 'gain supremacy' and is like saying that a lion is racist for eating a zebra.

See your above point mate
And in theory, they did gain supremacy.
An entire race that stood in their way was removed.

They didn't "gain supremacy" by devouring the Squats.
They were simply in the way

Nature works with common instincts, the hive mind is a thinking organism that sets out with multiple plans.
While pack mentality may involve planning to some degree, its nowhere near close to the hive mind.

Lions are thinking organisms that set out with multiple plans. So are any predators out there.