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2014/10/19 00:52:08
Subject: Re:I think Dark Eldar is the first unique and good codex overall GW has made in a while
vipoid wrote: Honestly, the codex feels far from unique. if anything, it feels utterly generic.
...
So, all in all, I find it hard to qualify the new book as either 'unique' or 'good'.
Couldn't agree more. I think it might still be serviceable, but they definitely took away the majority of the army's unique flair.
Just out of curiosity, what unique flair was lost?
Asdrubael Vect.
Interesting....a character that nobody used, and hasn't had an in-print model for years was the defining "flair" for the army. I would not have thought that.
2014/10/19 01:11:01
Subject: I think Dark Eldar is the first unique and good codex overall GW has made in a while
Well I don't know what he was talking about, but I'll give some answers, for starters, many style of builds, including combat drugs Slicus builds, no more Wych troops (useless models), no more Wrack troops (you can spam them as Elites in the coven, a choice that costs you any possible decent AT unit), the loss of a bunch of USC's, Venom spam being nerfed (you may not like spam, and fair enough if they found something to replace it with, but instead they just made this style of play not an option and left you to mix and match units. DE being the "glass cannon" concept army, spam is important, it boils down to needing multiples of a unit to ensure it does its job. It wasn't a beneficial change at the very least, restricting the amount of viable options to win an attrition), I think that there is a lot of awesome/important stuff lost in transition. Doesn't really affect me however as I will be sticking with the 5E dex.
vipoid wrote: Honestly, the codex feels far from unique. if anything, it feels utterly generic.
...
So, all in all, I find it hard to qualify the new book as either 'unique' or 'good'.
Couldn't agree more. I think it might still be serviceable, but they definitely took away the majority of the army's unique flair.
Just out of curiosity, what unique flair was lost?
Asdrubael Vect.
Interesting....a character that nobody used, and hasn't had an in-print model for years was the defining "flair" for the army. I would not have thought that.
LOOOOL I love the turnaround here. You did not ask for "defining" flairs for starters, you asked for unique ones... on top of that, just because he wasn't commonly used in the highest competitive build doesn't make his loss not a unique option. I played competitive DE and he was definitely a playable model, definitely much more so than the new Wyches, or Ravagers, or Khymera, etc, a bunch of crap in the new dex got printed. On top of THAT, since when has not having an in-print model been relevant to ANYTHING? You think that slowed the amount of Baron's that saw play (who we also lost)? And, on top of ALL THAT... why on earth is removing a less played model not relevant as if it couldn't have just been rebalanced, as it likely would have been, had it been moved to LoW.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/19 01:16:40
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/10/19 02:06:51
Subject: I think Dark Eldar is the first unique and good codex overall GW has made in a while
SHUPPET wrote: Well I don't know what he was talking about, but I'll give some answers, for starters, many style of builds, including combat drugs Slicus builds, no more Wych troops (useless models), no more Wrack troops (you can spam them as Elites in the coven, a choice that costs you any possible decent AT unit), the loss of a bunch of USC's, Venom spam being nerfed (you may not like spam, and fair enough if they found something to replace it with, but instead they just made this style of play not an option and left you to mix and match units. DE being the "glass cannon" concept army, spam is important, it boils down to needing multiples of a unit to ensure it does its job. It wasn't a beneficial change at the very least, restricting the amount of viable options to win an attrition), I think that there is a lot of awesome/important stuff lost in transition. Doesn't really affect me however as I will be sticking with the 5E dex.
vipoid wrote: Honestly, the codex feels far from unique. if anything, it feels utterly generic.
...
So, all in all, I find it hard to qualify the new book as either 'unique' or 'good'.
Couldn't agree more. I think it might still be serviceable, but they definitely took away the majority of the army's unique flair.
Just out of curiosity, what unique flair was lost?
Asdrubael Vect.
Interesting....a character that nobody used, and hasn't had an in-print model for years was the defining "flair" for the army. I would not have thought that.
LOOOOL I love the turnaround here. You did not ask for "defining" flairs for starters, you asked for unique ones... on top of that, just because he wasn't commonly used in the highest competitive build doesn't make his loss not a unique option. I played competitive DE and he was definitely a playable model, definitely much more so than the new Wyches, or Ravagers, or Khymera, etc, a bunch of crap in the new dex got printed. On top of THAT, since when has not having an in-print model been relevant to ANYTHING? You think that slowed the amount of Baron's that saw play (who we also lost)? And, on top of ALL THAT... why on earth is removing a less played model not relevant as if it couldn't have just been rebalanced, as it likely would have been, had it been moved to LoW.
Well, my question was in response to the "majority of the army's unique flair", of which the response I got was a single model that hardly saw the battlefield. So if one single model represents the "majority" of the army's unique flair, then it would be considered a "defining" flair would it not?
Now to the actual examples you provided, I don't know that I would consider spam builds a part of an army's unique flair, let alone the majority of it (unless said army is designed to be a horde style army). Wytches were only ever used for haywire grenades, so their in-game role of anti-tank completely contradicted their fluff. Removing haywire grenades actually restored their "flair" even if it did make them less than desirable. As you said yourself, Wracks as troops has a work around. I'm not sure how venom spam got nerfed since they can still be taken as dedicated transports AND fast attack, I have little experience with 5th edition DE, so maybe I'm missing something. The loss of Sliscus isn't that hard since Wytches are useless and all DE vehicles can deepstrike anyway.
I must say though, none of the things mentioned really scream "unique" about Dark Eldar.
2014/10/19 02:21:08
Subject: I think Dark Eldar is the first unique and good codex overall GW has made in a while
Show me how you would take a decent amount of Venoms in a list then. It either involves terrible models in the Venoms, or good models in the Venoms but outside of them no good support for AT. Making bulk Venoms pretty terrible. This is why spammed Elite slot Wracks from a Coven list is not at all a "workaround" for just, you know, having Wracks as actual troops. Warriors inside Venoms is probably the best bet, but Warriors are not a unit really worthy of spam. Maybe this aspect is more balanced now, I don't know. However, "true to the fluff" is far from what Wyches are. The issue was not them having HWG's, its the fact that they arent a very deadly CC unit at all, so tankhunting was the only role they could do. Now they can do neither the role that their fluff suggests nor the gameplay role they could do last edition. This is an improvement from neither side of the board, at least last edition they were commonly used as tarpit units (which is somewhat fluffy) since you could justify their choice thanks to HWG, now they don't leave the shelf.
"The loss of Sliscus isn't that hard since Wytches are useless" LOL what is this logic. Wyches are useless because they were nerfed in the same codex implementation that Sliscus was removed, the same implementation that we are expressing our disappointment in, the same implementation that we are comparing to last editions dex in which Wyches were not useless. Saying that the loss of Sliscus isn't a bad thing for the codex because Wyches suck in the new codex doesn't make sense, that's just another bad thing about the dex. Two things that should not have been changed, and two reasons for people to be disappointed in the new codex.
If you don't have any experience with 5E de than I imagine you are indeed, missing a lot. Especially since this entire discussion is about the differences between the 5E and 7E books. Just because something doesn't scream DE to you, doesn't really mean it isn't a very relevant and disappointing change to everyone else.
May I ask what exactly is your stance on the new dex? Do you feel it is an improvement? What are you trying to argue here?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/19 02:22:42
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/10/19 10:12:05
Subject: Re:I think Dark Eldar is the first unique and good codex overall GW has made in a while
Hugely disappointed with the whole thing and will not be buying this Codex(s) because:
Wyches still weak at actually killing things H-t-H (you know like they are actually supposed ot be good at), still WS 4 (even the "elite versions" and thats a joke), got rid of haywire which was fine by me but gave nothing back, in fact the opposite.
Removed Characters - esp Lady Malys.
Ravagers worse
Flickerfields gone except on Venom
Change to Nightshields - weaker and less interesting
Huskblade and hence Archon nerfed
You need to buy two books to have the "full Codex".
nothing actually new...............
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
SHUPPET wrote: Show me how you would take a decent amount of Venoms in a list then. It either involves terrible models in the Venoms, or good models in the Venoms but outside of them no good support for AT. Making bulk Venoms pretty terrible. This is why spammed Elite slot Wracks from a Coven list is not at all a "workaround" for just, you know, having Wracks as actual troops. Warriors inside Venoms is probably the best bet, but Warriors are not a unit really worthy of spam. Maybe this aspect is more balanced now, I don't know. However, "true to the fluff" is far from what Wyches are. The issue was not them having HWG's, its the fact that they arent a very deadly CC unit at all, so tankhunting was the only role they could do. Now they can do neither the role that their fluff suggests nor the gameplay role they could do last edition. This is an improvement from neither side of the board, at least last edition they were commonly used as tarpit units (which is somewhat fluffy) since you could justify their choice thanks to HWG, now they don't leave the shelf.
"The loss of Sliscus isn't that hard since Wytches are useless"
LOL what is this logic. Wyches are useless because they were nerfed in the same codex implementation that Sliscus was removed, the same implementation that we are expressing our disappointment in, the same implementation that we are comparing to last editions dex in which Wyches were not useless. Saying that the loss of Sliscus isn't a bad thing for the codex because Wyches suck in the new codex doesn't make sense, that's just another bad thing about the dex. Two things that should not have been changed, and two reasons for people to be disappointed in the new codex.
If you don't have any experience with 5E de than I imagine you are indeed, missing a lot. Especially since this entire discussion is about the differences between the 5E and 7E books. Just because something doesn't scream DE to you, doesn't really mean it isn't a very relevant and disappointing change to everyone else.
May I ask what exactly is your stance on the new dex? Do you feel it is an improvement? What are you trying to argue here?
I don't mean to come off as a dick or anything, mate but there are a lot of things you write that makes absolutely no sense as a long time DE player.
How did Venom spam get nerfed? It got better, actually. Night Shields did nothing to help against missile launchers/auto cannons/wave serpent shields which were its major threat. The other vehicles lost their FF so they even lose out when compared to the Venom that has the same AV, but comes with an option of not being forced to jink, has an inv and is a long ranged gunboat in it self. Heck, you can even field them empty if you want.
How are Warriors a unit not worthy of spam? I've never heard anyone making that claim before. They're cheap, have good BS and poison 4+ shooting.. as a troop choice.
I can't see how Sliscus being gone is a bad thing, other than he was a bargain HQ for the special rules he brought. However, everything can DS now, you mainly used his drug power to hope for PfP but we get that on every single model automatically now, so the only thing it hurts are useless units. To be frank, I don't see the loss.
What do you mean with the differences about 5th and 7th? DE was garbage tier in 5th edition. They could pull off fancy stuff and were fun to play, but play 1 game vs Leaf Blower IG lists/BA metal bawkses spam/SW/Necrons/GK Psyback spam and you'd realize how bad they were. It really spoke for itself when you spammed 3x Blasterborns + 3 Ravagers and Dark Lances on everything else and you would still feel like your AT was atrociously lackluster. This is not even touching the fact the vast majority of the units in the codex was atrociously bad, bloated with useless war gear and how much of the codex were focused on killing an absurd amount of infantry... in a metal bawks edition.
I'm also having difficulty understanding how you ever thought Wyches weren't useless before. I remember clearly how well established the entire community was on how absolutely garbage the Wyches were and that statement was never disputed before 6th edition introduced HP stripping. You could use them to stun vehicles in 5th, if only to delay retaliatory fire a little, they were gak for anything else. If you used the gimmicky portal and had a massive unit of them to assault with, you'd overrun the assaulted unit and then get stuck in the open with a 6+ save.
2014/10/19 19:37:27
Subject: I think Dark Eldar is the first unique and good codex overall GW has made in a while
Zewrath wrote: How did Venom spam get nerfed? It got better, actually. Night Shields did nothing to help against missile launchers/auto cannons/wave serpent shields which were its major threat.
Sorry, how does Stealth help against the serpent shield now?
How are Warriors a unit not worthy of spam? I've never heard anyone making that claim before. They're cheap, have good BS and poison 4+ shooting.. as a troop choice.
I imagine it depends what you face. Sometimes 4+ poison is useful, other times it's far less so. And, all their "utility" weapons and options are pretty rubbish.
They're not bad as a spammed unit, but certainly not anything to write home about either.
What do you mean with the differences about 5th and 7th? DE was garbage tier in 5th edition. They could pull off fancy stuff and were fun to play, but play 1 game vs Leaf Blower IG lists/BA metal bawkses spam/SW/Necrons/GK Psyback spam and you'd realize how bad they were.
I don't see how that's different from the current edition - it's just a different list of armies that screws them over.
Zewrath wrote: It really spoke for itself when you spammed 3x Blasterborns + 3 Ravagers and Dark Lances on everything else and you would still feel like your AT was atrociously lackluster.
And yet their anti-tank was still better than it is now, because a) there were no fliers in 5th, and b) penetrates with an AP2 weapon were actually meaningful. As opposed to now, where you might as well be throwing rotten fruit at them.
I'm also having difficulty understanding how you ever thought Wyches weren't useless before. I remember clearly how well established the entire community was on how absolutely garbage the Wyches were and that statement was never disputed before 6th edition introduced HP stripping. You could use them to stun vehicles in 5th, if only to delay retaliatory fire a little, they were gak for anything else. If you used the gimmicky portal and had a massive unit of them to assault with, you'd overrun the assaulted unit and then get stuck in the open with a 6+ save.
So, he made the mistake of thinking GW might actually improve a bad unit, as opposed to removing it's only useful role? What a fool. :
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/19 19:38:18
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2014/10/19 20:08:46
Subject: I think Dark Eldar is the first unique and good codex overall GW has made in a while
Sorry, how does Stealth help against the serpent shield now?
How would the Venom get stealth when it isn't capable of getting Night Shield? Even then, how the actual feth did minus 6" ever help against the serpent shield?
I imagine it depends what you face. Sometimes 4+ poison is useful, other times it's far less so. And, all their "utility" weapons and options are pretty rubbish.
They're not bad as a spammed unit, but certainly not anything to write home about either.
Wyches = horribly choice, always were. Hellion troops = horrible choice, always were. Wracks = horrible choice, always were, ok they were certainly the only contenders for manning the quad gun you never fielded but were outclassed against the shooty warriors, you know.. in the 3 shooty editions we've had in a row.
How is 4+ poison ever not usefull? That one time, in band camp, were you had a bolter or what ever that was S4+ and shot something AV10 and got a lucky glance?
Yeah, no, I'm not buying that. The dominance of T4 models, toughness increasing war gear (bikes), monstrous creatures and flying monstrous creatures makes 4+ poison absurdly good on a troop choice, meaning that when you shoot with them, their shots almost always matters. Add in the fact that you would mostly use them on fast vehicles that spewed out 12 poisoned shots along with your Warriors and that they complemented the Venom, made them an excellent unit to spam.
Because it means we're paying double the price for less content?
Not sure why that's a question, but I just stated how the new codex still kept his good features and they made the codex better. I'm not saying the price isn't high but it's certainly an improvement.
And yet their anti-tank was still better than it is now, because a) there were no fliers in 5th, and b) penetrates with an AP2 weapon were actually meaningful. As opposed to now, where you might as well be throwing rotten fruit at them.
I'm quite puzzled at why anyone would mention flyers when you talk about anti-tank, but no, they weren't better actually.
Sure, that odd explosion due to lucky dice was more frequent than now, I'll give you that, but most of the time the DE just "stunned" tanks/transports and little else, which usually mattered little.
Also, with the option of spamming the same amount of lances AND an fuckton of haywire on top of that, I must question your logic when you state that their AT is worse than before.
Not true - used to use them alot in the initial codex. They were made rubbish except for tanki killing in 5th - which was rubbish and then made even owrse in the new Codex.
But then GW seems to hate dedicated Assault units - look at what they did to Genestealers - ignore the fluff, sodd the narrative and make all rubbish.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Not true - used to use them alot in the initial codex. They were made rubbish except for tanki killing in 5th - which was rubbish and then made even owrse in the new Codex.
But then GW seems to hate dedicated Assault units - look at what they did to Genestealers - ignore the fluff, sodd the narrative and make all rubbish.
I used Hellions a lot, that doesn't change the fact that they are horrible. How were you killing vehicles with glancing Wyches in 5th edition?
"They were made rubbish except for tanki killing in 5th - which was rubbish and then made even owrse in the new Codex."
That sentence contradicts itself. They were rubbish except for killing tanks, but they were rubbish at that too and now they're worse?
2014/10/19 20:42:54
Subject: Re:I think Dark Eldar is the first unique and good codex overall GW has made in a while
How would the Venom get stealth when it isn't capable of getting Night Shield? Even then, how the actual feth did minus 6" ever help against the serpent shield?
So why did you bring it up at all? You seemed to be saying that the new book helped against those weapons, if you're saying it doesn't then how does that further your argument?
Wyches = horribly choice, always were. Hellion troops = horrible choice, always were. Wracks = horrible choice, always were, ok they were certainly the only contenders for manning the quad gun you never fielded but were outclassed against the shooty warriors, you know.. in the 3 shooty editions we've had in a row.
Wracks were ok as troops in the last book. Not to do anything in combat - just to be a cheap troop choice to unlock a venom, and then sit on an objective. At the very least, locking them in Elites didn't help their predicament.
Likewise, stripping Hellions of an attack, and removing the only character who could make them even remotely useful hasn't exactly helped their situation.
Wyches could actually do well before as anti-vehicle with haywire grenades. The new book removed that and replaced it with... nothing.
In any case, I agree that warriors are the best troops. But, I'm wondering what makes them worth spamming - as opposed to just taking them as min troops? If you see what I mean.
How is 4+ poison ever not usefull? That one time, in band camp, were you had a bolter or what ever that was S4+ and shot something AV10 and got a lucky glance?
Yeah, no, I'm not buying that. The dominance of T4 models, toughness increasing war gear (bikes), monstrous creatures and flying monstrous creatures makes 4+ poison absurdly good on a troop choice, meaning that when you shoot with them, their shots almost always matters. Add in the fact that you would mostly use them on fast vehicles that spewed out 12 poisoned shots along with your Warriors and that they complemented the Venom, made them an excellent unit to spam.
And, what are you paying for that poison? Warriors have 4 special/heavy weapons - two of them are virtually identical, the third is an overpriced version of the gun they already have and the last is just plain awful. Yes, 4+ poison is useful, but so is a good selection of Special weapons - with Plasma being very good against MCs, bikes etc. as well. Or, perhaps it would be nice to have an anti-vehicle weapon on them with a bit more reliability. e.g. one that doesn't cost 50% more than a melta, yet requires about 9 shots to kill a rhino.
Not sure why that's a question, but I just stated how the new codex still kept his good features and they made the codex better. I'm not saying the price isn't high but it's certainly an improvement.
Really? To me it seems like all you've described is how the new book has removed content that *you* didn't like, and failed to make any improvements to bad units.
I'm quite puzzled at why anyone would mention flyers when you talk about anti-tank, but no, they weren't better actually.
Why? Are fliers not vehicles now?
Sure, that odd explosion due to lucky dice was more frequent than now, I'll give you that, but most of the time the DE just "stunned" tanks/transports and little else, which usually mattered little.
Also, with the option of spamming the same amount of lances AND an fuckton of haywire on top of that, I must question your logic when you state that their AT is worse than before.
Except that the amount of haywire you can field has, if anything, gone down - since wyches can no longer take haywire grenades.
Also, one might expect a 7th edition book to recieve weapons more appropriate to it's edition. How many skyfire weapons did DE get? Is the answer 'none'? Hell, name a single anti-vehicle weapon they got that's either twin-linked or has a rate of fire greater than 1.
Well, they were at least good at anti-vehicle in 6th. Now they're good at absolutely nothing.
My responses in red.
I guess I just find it odd that people praise the new codex, whilst saying "well, no, it didn't fix V, W, X, Y or Z... but they were bad before so that's alight then." I mean, it seems like a genuinely good book would actually fix all the bad units in the last one - rather than just leaving them to rot.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/19 22:10:58
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2014/10/19 22:14:16
Subject: I think Dark Eldar is the first unique and good codex overall GW has made in a while
I don't mean to come off as a dick or anything, mate but there are a lot of things you write that makes absolutely no sense as a long time DE player.
How did Venom spam get nerfed? It got better, actually. Night Shields did nothing to help against missile launchers/auto cannons/wave serpent shields which were its major threat. The other vehicles lost their FF so they even lose out when compared to the Venom that has the same AV, but comes with an option of not being forced to jink, has an inv and is a long ranged gunboat in it self. Heck, you can even field them empty if you want.
Show me your Venomspam list then, and please explain to me how it got better with the option of no longer being able to spam HWG Wyches and being forced to take Warriors.
Zewrath wrote: How are Warriors a unit not worthy of spam? I've never heard anyone making that claim before. They're cheap, have good BS and poison 4+ shooting.. as a troop choice.
They offer zero utility and provide the exact same role as a Venom except at shorter range and less cost efficient shooting, they also can't sink themselves into combat and destroy a tank, CC with a blob, or tarpit something with an excellent armour save (basically all the things that Venoms struggle/become far less efficient against) like Wyches could. There is almost zero synergy between Warriors and Venoms, Wracks are a fair better choice for Venoms than Warriors because they are cheaper, more durable, and can actually make SOME gak happen in CC, however they now force you into the DLC book. If you think Venomspam didn't take a resounding, possibly crippling blow I don't know what to tell you, except that I think you should consider the possibility that you may have been playing the 5E codex wrong.
I can't see how Sliscus being gone is a bad thing, other than he was a bargain HQ for the special rules he brought. However, everything can DS now, you mainly used his drug power to hope for PfP but we get that on every single model automatically now, so the only thing it hurts are useless units. To be frank, I don't see the loss.
That's because you are incapable of seeing the differences between the two PfP rules and how this isn't necessarily an improvement. That being said, the Duke in 7th could easily have had his drugs rule changed to someone more relevant (speeding it up a turn) to keep a cool, synergistic leader for Wych cults. and as stated earlier - HIS SPECIAL RULES NO LONGER BEING RELEVANT ARE A RESULT OF OTHER CHANGES IN THE SAME BOOK. Transports feel more balanced to the designers if they all have DS? Sure, if we are keeping the Dule we now remove that special rule and drop him some points, or replace it with something new for the same cost. This is what "balancing" is, finding the balance where units are playable and not too strong to make the auto include and not too weak to make them useless. There is a definite lack of balance in 7th ED codex.
Zewrath wrote: What do you mean with the differences about 5th and 7th? DE was garbage tier in 5th edition. They could pull off fancy stuff and were fun to play, but play 1 game vs Leaf Blower IG lists/BA metal bawkses spam/SW/Necrons/GK Psyback spam and you'd realize how bad they were. It really spoke for itself when you spammed 3x Blasterborns + 3 Ravagers and Dark Lances on everything else and you would still feel like your AT was atrociously lackluster. This is not even touching the fact the vast majority of the units in the codex was atrociously bad, bloated with useless war gear and how much of the codex were focused on killing an absurd amount of infantry... in a metal bawks edition.
I'm also having difficulty understanding how you ever thought Wyches weren't useless before. I remember clearly how well established the entire community was on how absolutely garbage the Wyches were and that statement was never disputed before 6th edition introduced HP stripping. You could use them to stun vehicles in 5th, if only to delay retaliatory fire a little, they were gak for anything else. If you used the gimmicky portal and had a massive unit of them to assault with, you'd overrun the assaulted unit and then get stuck in the open with a 6+ save.
Oh. I really wish I had read these two paragraphs first, before wasting time typing out my earlier response. You thought Blasterborn were playable :/ you thought Wyches only stunned vehicles :/ you thought Wyches were widely regarded as bad :/ you are using a perception of other peoples opinions as a basis for your argument instead of actually knowing anything yourself :/ Yep, so to sum things up you spammed Venoms, but took Warriors in them, while complaining you had an absurd amount of anti-infantry and a severe lack of AT, all the while touting that Wyches are useless units. Great. I can see you fully grasped the 5E codex. At least, about as well as you seem to be doing with this new one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: How the 5E codex performed in the 5E to 6E 40k edition switch is irrelevant to me, that happened 2 years ago, this entire thread is quite clearly about the 6th Ed to 7th ed codex switch. Yes Wyches were trash before 6th but if you kept attaching that stigma to them in 6th without reassessing the unit, well... Then you are probably the type of player still taking Blasterborns lol :p
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2014/10/19 22:27:32
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/10/19 22:40:12
Subject: Re:I think Dark Eldar is the first unique and good codex overall GW has made in a while
Not true - used to use them alot in the initial codex. They were made rubbish except for tanki killing in 5th - which was rubbish and then made even owrse in the new Codex.
But then GW seems to hate dedicated Assault units - look at what they did to Genestealers - ignore the fluff, sodd the narrative and make all rubbish.
I used Hellions a lot, that doesn't change the fact that they are horrible. How were you killing vehicles with glancing Wyches in 5th edition?
"They were made rubbish except for tanki killing in 5th - which was rubbish and then made even owrse in the new Codex."
That sentence contradicts itself. They were rubbish except for killing tanks, but they were rubbish at that too and now they're worse?
Haywire Grenades are effective against vehicles and were so in 6th.
I meant that their only role was tanking killing - which was "rubbish" considering the fluff and now they are rubbish at that too - so now they are worse - simple really? are you seriously syaing they are better now than previously.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
They were awesome in 6th and were the core of Venomspam. They were far better suited to the ideals than Blasterborn, with a bunch of paper thin transports flying around, 4 with Warriors and 3 with Blasterborn, sorry but the Trueborn are getting aced every time, stretching your AT much more thin. 6 Wyches however is a different beast. Half of them WILL make it to do their role, be it tank busting, tarpitting, or CCing with a blob, they really covered all the gaps in mass Venom, while not having an "eggs in the basket" affect that you do NOT want for DE, and having a cheaper overall cost. If you weren't running them in Venomspam, then you were one of the people who had to google everything to know what to take and kept getting all the 5th ed info Arguing what it was capable of in 5E warhammer is pretty irrelevant Zewrath.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/10/20 00:28:21
Subject: I think Dark Eldar is the first unique and good codex overall GW has made in a while
SHUPPET wrote: Oh. I really wish I had read these two paragraphs first, before wasting time typing out my earlier response. You thought Blasterborn were playable :/ you thought Wyches only stunned vehicles :/ you thought Wyches were widely regarded as bad :/ you are using a perception of other peoples opinions as a basis for your argument instead of actually knowing anything yourself :/ Yep, so to sum things up you spammed Venoms, but took Warriors in them, while complaining you had an absurd amount of anti-infantry and a severe lack of AT, all the while touting that Wyches are useless units. Great. I can see you fully grasped the 5E codex. At least, about as well as you seem to be doing with this new one.
How the 5E codex performed in the 5E to 6E 40k edition switch is irrelevant to me, that happened 2 years ago, this entire thread is quite clearly about the 6th Ed to 7th ed codex switch. Yes Wyches were trash before 6th but if you kept attaching that stigma to them in 6th without reassessing the unit, well... Then you are probably the type of player still taking Blasterborns lol :p
No personal attacks
You thought Blasterborn were playable :/
No personal attacks In an edition of vehicle spam you resorted to what, Splinterborn? Mandrakes? Grots? Bloodbrides? Incubi? Hell, HARLEQUINS?
you thought Wyches only stunned vehicles :/
I never made that claim, I said they were gak and that's mathematically and practically proven. Furthermore, if you thought it was a sound tactic to use 5 Wyches against vehicles they needed 3+ to hit, 2+ to glance and then needed to roll with a -3 modifier on a damage table AND THEN needed to cause enough weapon destroyed and immobilized to cause a wreck, then you're beyond stupid.
you thought Wyches were widely regarded as bad :/
They were, they still are. It was cemented on the release of 5th edition.
you are using a perception of other peoples opinions as a basis for your argument instead of actually knowing anything yourself :/
No, I played competitively throughout the entire 5th edition, I know exactly what their faults were. You, on the other hand, played in a meta were apparently you did well with Wyches... No personal attacks
If you don't have any experience with 5E de than I imagine you are indeed, missing a lot. Especially since this entire discussion is about the differences between the 5E and 7E books.
Arguing what it was capable of in 5E warhammer is pretty irrelevant Zewrath
bs, again.
Half of them WILL make it to do their role, be it tank busting, tarpitting, or CCing with a blob, they really covered all the gaps in mass Venom, while not having an "eggs in the basket" affect that you do NOT want for DE, and having a cheaper overall cost. If you weren't running them in Venomspam, then you were one of the people who had to google everything to know what to take and kept getting all the 5th ed info
And what the feth kind of bs is this?
Wyches NEVER made it to their role since the release of 6th edition. Using a Venom to deliver 5 paper thin models up close in an edition that was flooded with infantry, long range fast skimmers you couldn't reach was a piss poor waste of points.
Overwatch and wall of death made sure that the legend of Wyches tarpitting blobs never ever happened.
And what cheaper overall cost? Have you even read the codex? The Wyches were more expensive and with HWG they were even further expensive.
The Warriors, in 6th edition, had a 30" threat range when mounted on a Venom, added to its poison shooting and could hang back, claim cover and shoot from distances and deal with the massed infantry and monstrous creatures that dominated the 6th edition.
So why did you bring it up at all? You seemed to be saying that the new book helped against those weapons, if you're saying it doesn't then how does that further your argument?Please refrain from using red text needlessly
Because screaming "WAVE SERPENT!" doesn't invalidate the Night Shield. With Jink, the paper thin vehicles now have a 3+ cover save and they can even claim 4+/3+ cover in normal cover/ruins and that's nothing to scoff at. High strength shots that are abundantly available are the bane of DE vehicles and forcing your opponent to dedicate either orders/psychic buffs/buffs to ignore cover, rather than just deleting the vehicle that relies on a 5+/5++ is a massive improvement.
Wracks were ok as troops in the last book. Not to do anything in combat - just to be a cheap troop choice to unlock a venom, and then sit on an objective. At the very least, locking them in Elites didn't help their predicament.
Likewise, stripping Hellions of an attack, and removing the only character who could make them even remotely useful hasn't exactly helped their situation.
Wyches could actually do well before as anti-vehicle with haywire grenades. The new book removed that and replaced it with... nothing.
Wracks unlocking venoms in that matter might as well not existed and now the codex offers a way to get a venom without ever spending anything on wracks.
In any case, I agree that warriors are the best troops. But, I'm wondering what makes them worth spamming - as opposed to just taking them as min troops? If you see what I mean.
Ah, well I agree partially with that sentiment. I won't defend the DE's lack of troops though.
And, what are you paying for that poison? Warriors have 4 special/heavy weapons - two of them are virtually identical, the third is an overpriced version of the gun they already have and the last is just plain awful. Yes, 4+ poison is useful, but so is a good selection of Special weapons - with Plasma being very good against MCs, bikes etc. as well. Or, perhaps it would be nice to have an anti-vehicle weapon on them with a bit more reliability. e.g. one that doesn't cost 50% more than a melta, yet requires about 9 shots to kill a rhino.
While I agree with some the point you're making, I'm not honestly convinced.
Special weapons on Tactical Squads are over priced and lack luster and it's much more reliable to have specialized squads like Sternguards/Grav Bikes. As a primary IG player though, who has extremely flexible troop choices I know were your mentality comes from.
Really? To me it seems like all you've described is how the new book has removed content that *you* didn't like, and failed to make any improvements to bad units.
They made a lot of good improvements in war gear and costs, along with a detachment that is really super good for DE.
Why? Are fliers not vehicles now?
Not in the sense of AT. Usually when people talk about AA, they refer to skyfire weapons, high torrent of high S weapons. It's not unlike AT but low AP high S weapons are much more valued as AT weapons but rarely as an AA weapon. Melta-guns and lascanons aren't good and reliable AA unless they have skyfire and/or TL.
Except that the amount of haywire you can field has, if anything, gone down - since wyches can no longer take haywire grenades.
So we are ignoring the option to massively spam 30" threat range Haywire blasters? Versus what, an abominable bad CC unit that sat in a paper thin vehicle and needed to rely on random charge distance and overwatch.
Also, one might expect a 7th edition book to recieve weapons more appropriate to it's edition. How many skyfire weapons did DE get? Is the answer 'none'? Hell, name a single anti-vehicle weapon they got that's either twin-linked or has a rate of fire greater than 1.
True this. I literally laughed my ass off when I saw the "new" dark lance with a blast profile. It's like, the least necessary weapon ever introduced in a codex.
I guess I just find it odd that people praise the new codex, whilst saying "well, no, it didn't fix V, W, X, Y or Z... but they were bad before so that's alight then." I mean, it seems like a genuinely good book would actually fix all the bad units in the last one - rather than just leaving them to rot.
I didn't directly state this, however, I will agree that some of the units deserved a far better treatment than they got.
Please refrain from using red text needlessly, and don't use personal attacks
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/21 01:47:16
2014/10/20 10:55:18
Subject: I think Dark Eldar is the first unique and good codex overall GW has made in a while
I like the new codex, We shouldn't whine unduly about the loss of Commaragh's nobility (The Baron, Duke, Lady and Lord), special characters come and go all the time with every edition, and it's clear that these new codexes are trying to play down the amount of these characters. Orks lost quite a few, as did Grey Knights. It's just the direction they are going in
No, we absolutely should whine about the removal of these characters, because the only reason they've removed the characters is for purely financial reasons. Any character that doesn't have a model gets axed and even characters with models but are old as hell like Al'Rahem gets axed, purely because GW can't make money off of them and they want to stick it to Chapterhouse for kicking their ass in Court.
GW invalidating peoples' playstyles and removing flavor because they're butthurt about losing a lawsuit and they're too lazy to properly balance their game is deplorable behavior that should never, ever be supported or forgiven. When you shrug about it and move on, you're validating their actions.
I'm ambivalent about the army beyond that. Mostly ambivalent about all of the 7th edition codices.
It's not about being "butthurt", it's about trying to stop people from making even more money off their IP. They would be stupid to do anything else.
2014/10/20 12:17:11
Subject: I think Dark Eldar is the first unique and good codex overall GW has made in a while
So this new book is pretty awesome. My partner Saturday at the doubles even was also dark eldar. So with dark eldar/dark eldar, we placed 3rd at this tourney.
Round one we beat sky blight nids/ white scars
Round two we beat eldar serpents / AM tank spam with wyverns
Round three we beat chaos daemons
" $@#& YOU! There are 3 things I want in a guy: Tall, Handsome, and plays Dark Eldar!"-every woman since
November 2010
2014/10/20 12:53:20
Subject: I think Dark Eldar is the first unique and good codex overall GW has made in a while
It's not about being "butthurt", it's about trying to stop people from making even more money off their IP. They would be stupid to do anything else.
No, the only stupid decision was the one they made. Shall we go through the problems?
1) Rules cost money. So, even if they weren't making money on the models (which they were anyway, but I'll get to that), they were still making money off the rules for those characters. Now, they're charging double the price of the previous codices, yet the overall content has been reduced. This is not a good way to endear yourself to your customers.
2) People still bought GW models to convert to those characters. And, even if some other company made a model for a GW character, it's likely that most people would still convert their own - or use the ones they already converted. By removing the models, GW has both stopped any possibility of people buying extra kits to convert, *and* pissed off anyone who already put money and effort into converting those characters. Remind me again why this is the best option.
3) They could have just made the bloody models. They're a model company - it's literally what they do for a living. And, in most cases, they've had years to get it done. And, please don't give me any of this crap about 'not having the resources', because they've been releasing tons of new models. The DE codex alone got, what, 3 character models for units that already had up-to-date models. There is absolutely no reason why they couldn't have made models for 3 of the SCs instead. And, of course, they've also been releasing a ton of new models for other stuff - like the ridiculous fantasy models. Again, they could have instead made models for 40k characters rather than remove them.
Now, perhaps you're going to say that GW decided to breath some life into fantasy instead, or that they decided that it just wasn't viable to make models for 40k characters (possibly out of a crippling fear of money and success). Regardless, I agree, that's their choice. But, why should their customers be made to suffer just because they don't want to (or can't be bothered) making models for those characters?
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2014/10/20 13:33:05
Subject: I think Dark Eldar is the first unique and good codex overall GW has made in a while
No, the only stupid decision was the one they made. Shall we go through the problems?
1) Rules cost money. So, even if they weren't making money on the models (which they were anyway, but I'll get to that), they were still making money off the rules for those characters. Now, they're charging double the price of the previous codices, yet the overall content has been reduced. This is not a good way to endear yourself to your customers.
2) People still bought GW models to convert to those characters. And, even if some other company made a model for a GW character, it's likely that most people would still convert their own - or use the ones they already converted. By removing the models, GW has both stopped any possibility of people buying extra kits to convert, *and* pissed off anyone who already put money and effort into converting those characters. Remind me again why this is the best option.
3) They could have just made the bloody models. They're a model company - it's literally what they do for a living. And, in most cases, they've had years to get it done. And, please don't give me any of this crap about 'not having the resources', because they've been releasing tons of new models. The DE codex alone got, what, 3 character models for units that already had up-to-date models. There is absolutely no reason why they couldn't have made models for 3 of the SCs instead. And, of course, they've also been releasing a ton of new models for other stuff - like the ridiculous fantasy models. Again, they could have instead made models for 40k characters rather than remove them.
Now, perhaps you're going to say that GW decided to breath some life into fantasy instead, or that they decided that it just wasn't viable to make models for 40k characters (possibly out of a crippling fear of money and success). Regardless, I agree, that's their choice. But, why should their customers be made to suffer just because they don't want to (or can't be bothered) making models for those characters?
I hate the Chapter House Studios case. I don't care about who people think was right in that case and who won, because ultimately it was us, the customers who lost.
There's absolutely no logic to why the only 2 units in the DE codex who don't want the Venomblade are the only one able to purchase them as upgrades. There's absolutely no logic in stripping away Shardcarbines for the unit who wants to sit in a gunboat that could TL their weapons, nor is their any logic in why DE cannot select any other power weapons other than Power Swords, it's stupid even by GW logic. It's glaringly obvious that the only reason that those decisions were made was that the units with those options in the package you could buy. Just in case someone would ever make a Dark Eldar power maul/axe and make a profit. It's mindbogglingly stupid and it was the same kind of reasoning that made the atrocious abomination that is the Tyranid codex.
What I find most annoying is that GW never even acknowledged the praise they got for making the Chaos Terminator Lord / Space Marine captain/IG command boxes (which kindda' just proves they don't listen to their fans, regardless of positive feedback or not). I mean seriously, they should be mandatory on every single army. Not some gakky mono pose HQ model with little to no options for customization, which also happens to cost the equivalent of a tactical squad box.
2014/10/20 13:52:57
Subject: I think Dark Eldar is the first unique and good codex overall GW has made in a while
I hate the Chapter House Studios case. I don't care about who people think was right in that case and who won, because ultimately it was us, the customers who lost.
There's absolutely no logic to why the only 2 units in the DE codex who don't want the Venomblade are the only one able to purchase them as upgrades. There's absolutely no logic in stripping away Shardcarbines for the unit who wants to sit in a gunboat that could TL their weapons, nor is their any logic in why DE cannot select any other power weapons other than Power Swords, it's stupid even by GW logic. It's glaringly obvious that the only reason that those decisions were made was that the units with those options in the package you could buy. Just in case someone would ever make a Dark Eldar power maul/axe and make a profit. It's mindbogglingly stupid and it was the same kind of reasoning that made the atrocious abomination that is the Tyranid codex.
What I find most annoying is that GW never even acknowledged the praise they got for making the Chaos Terminator Lord / Space Marine captain/IG command boxes (which kindda' just proves they don't listen to their fans, regardless of positive feedback or not). I mean seriously, they should be mandatory on every single army. Not some gakky mono pose HQ model with little to no options for customization, which also happens to cost the equivalent of a tactical squad box.
OT but just a quick word. GW declining to produce models or rules for units in the game is exactly like Ford refusing to make cars from the fear that someone will create an add-on for their product that they don't make; at the end of the day it's asininely stupid and will inevitably hurt the company. Someone on their first day in business school can answer this question, "What do consumers like?", options and a quality product at a reasonable price...barring that a shoddy product at a cheap price (see Mantic for this, the Dollar General corp of the miniature world). GW continues to fail at business 101 and it is starting to hurt them, possibly (we'll see with the next report; 2 bad half-years may be a blip but 3 is a trend).
It would be the easiest thing in the world for GW to make a single spru power weapon upgrade kit for each faction that has them; they'd probably sell like hotcakes for many reasons but they'll continue to ignore potential cash-flow staring them in the face.
Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do
2014/10/20 14:00:44
Subject: I think Dark Eldar is the first unique and good codex overall GW has made in a while
agnosto wrote: OT but just a quick word. GW declining to produce models or rules for units in the game is exactly like Ford refusing to make cars from the fear that someone will create an add-on for their product that they don't make; at the end of the day it's asininely stupid and will inevitably hurt the company. Someone on their first day in business school can answer this question, "What do consumers like?", options and a quality product at a reasonable price...barring that a shoddy product at a cheap price (see Mantic for this, the Dollar General corp of the miniature world). GW continues to fail at business 101 and it is starting to hurt them, possibly (we'll see with the next report; 2 bad half-years may be a blip but 3 is a trend).
It would be the easiest thing in the world for GW to make a single spru power weapon upgrade kit for each faction that has them; they'd probably sell like hotcakes for many reasons but they'll continue to ignore potential cash-flow staring them in the face.
Well, in all fairness I do believe I was OT too.
I used to love GW in that weird kind of way, like: "Hehe, oh GW, you do make some quirky things and expensive prices but at least you guys made a game that looks like it was made by nerds for nerds"
Now, the 40k setting has grown into such a state that it's essentially something that will persist even beyond GW. I mean, it has reached a point now that GW can retcon stuff or make fluff and if enough people hate it, it's just actively ignored. So really, 40k is past the point of needing GW and I would love to see someone else take the IP, someone who are just even remotely competent.
2014/10/20 14:10:22
Subject: I think Dark Eldar is the first unique and good codex overall GW has made in a while
So really, 40k is past the point of needing GW and I would love to see someone else take the IP, someone who are just even remotely competent.
I agree with this so much, and can't wait for the inevitable to take its course. I think the chapterhouse lawsuit is a good thing. I mean you can't blame the constant imbalances of 40k, the terrible pricing, the DLC money grabs, even the removal of some units entirely on the chapterhouse lawsuit. I mean, they release new models for old units with models in these coming dexes when they could have held on to models. Regardless you definitely can't hold the lawsuit responsible for all the other stuff. The lawsuit is good imo because while it hurts us the customers, anything that hurts the customers is just one more thing hurting GW, and I'd rather a bit of extra pain now than having this entire painful situation delayed even longer. The less revenue they have coming in the sooner they will be gone. And good riddance!
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/10/20 14:11:34
Subject: I think Dark Eldar is the first unique and good codex overall GW has made in a while
I hate the Chapter House Studios case. I don't care about who people think was right in that case and who won, because ultimately it was us, the customers who lost.
There's absolutely no logic to why the only 2 units in the DE codex who don't want the Venomblade are the only one able to purchase them as upgrades. There's absolutely no logic in stripping away Shardcarbines for the unit who wants to sit in a gunboat that could TL their weapons, nor is their any logic in why DE cannot select any other power weapons other than Power Swords, it's stupid even by GW logic. It's glaringly obvious that the only reason that those decisions were made was that the units with those options in the package you could buy. Just in case someone would ever make a Dark Eldar power maul/axe and make a profit. It's mindbogglingly stupid and it was the same kind of reasoning that made the atrocious abomination that is the Tyranid codex.
What I find most annoying is that GW never even acknowledged the praise they got for making the Chaos Terminator Lord / Space Marine captain/IG command boxes (which kindda' just proves they don't listen to their fans, regardless of positive feedback or not). I mean seriously, they should be mandatory on every single army. Not some gakky mono pose HQ model with little to no options for customization, which also happens to cost the equivalent of a tactical squad box.
Indeed.
On that subject, the other thing I like about, say, the IG command squad is that the commander has a nice, simple design that still looks very good.
In contrast, I find that many HQs just have far too much 'bling' for my liking. The IG ones aren't too bad in this regard, but many of the others look like coral reefs on legs.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2014/10/20 14:20:53
Subject: I think Dark Eldar is the first unique and good codex overall GW has made in a while
I also like the new Codex. I think they try to create maintanable armies (from the supplier's point of view) and maybe this will help them to fix some of the problems we've been complaining about. Less special models might be a price we have to pay for more balance.
My armies:
Eldar Necron Chaos Space Marines Grey Knights Imperial Knights Death Guard
2014/10/20 14:53:57
Subject: I think Dark Eldar is the first unique and good codex overall GW has made in a while
At first I was dreading the changes that leaked out. Everything seemed to point towards the ultimate Codex of Not Doom. I decried the change to things that I regularly used. My "army" would no longer work like it once did and I had moments of cursing GW for daring to make me rethink my approach.
Now that I've played a few games and began the process of adapting, there is a LOT here that I'm really excited about. The makeup of my army has changed, units that I rarely - or never - took before now have a place such as mandrakes, scourges and even a succubus.
Yes, several models/units that I have will no longer make regular appearances in my games; I even said "see ya" to my wyches as I put them into long term storage.
Yes, I wanted (still do) an actual Vect model. I had converted my own; however, if I'm completely honest, I never fielded it as Vect. Most of my games are 1500 or less and he was just too costly to bother with. Yes, I wish lelith had a warlord trait that actually did *something*. However, she has sat on my shelf for almost 4 years; I suspect she'll be there another 4.
To me the biggest "flavor" of the Dark Eldar was summed up in 3 major items. 4+ Poison available to pretty much everything, the concept of getting better as the game progresses (Power from Pain) and having a random bonus (combat drugs) for at least part of the army. Poison is still there, Power from Pain is much better and Combat Drugs are much more useful - +1T is my favorite.
Quite frankly, the loss of the Duke and Baron haven't bothered me one bit. Those were abused by regular Eldar players much more often than those whose primary was the Dark Kin. Hellions were just never that good and the beast pack just seemed too much like using Khorne Dogs. Their removal honestly helped shore up the flavor of DE rather than let them be a copy cat.
The one major buff we did get was to deep strike. I never saw the point to deep striking before. Now, I plan on keeping 4 or more units in reserve to take advantage of this play style.
The tldr version is simply: yes things have absolutely changed. They helped bring down some of the power of Eldar by removing Duke/Baron. While increasing those things that make DE what they are. Over the next couple of months DE players will evolve and numerous armies will have to shift to deal with them.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/20 14:55:36
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"Why me?" Gideon begged, falling to his knees.
"Why not?" - Asdrubael Vect
2014/10/20 15:06:26
Subject: Re:I think Dark Eldar is the first unique and good codex overall GW has made in a while
Yes, several models/units that I have will no longer make regular appearances in my games; I even said "see ya" to my wyches as I put them into long term storage.
Yes, I wish Lelith had a warlord trait that actually did *something*. However, she has sat on my shelf for almost 4 years; I suspect she'll be there another 4
Considering that the Wych Cult is a central part of the Dark Eldar world, has quite a bit of fluff dedicated to it and some nice new pics - is that not a damming indictment of the new Codex.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
:
Arguing what it was capable of in 5E warhammer is pretty irrelevant Zewrath.
