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Yoyoyo wrote:
Vak, the command squads get 4x specials+krak

Aye, the command squads do, but so do both IG command squad types for a whole lot fewer points, and you can actually get more command squads (scion and otherwise) into a single IG FoC than out of a Scion FoC.

[qutoe] troop survivability comes from better deployment options and alpha strike disruption (not their statline)

No one has yet voted for the following:

Necrons 0% [ 0 ]
Space marines 0% [ 0 ]
Space wolves 0% [ 0 ]
Chaos daemons 0% [ 0 ]
Dark angels 0% [ 0 ]
White scars 0% [ 0 ]

I'm not sure what to take from that, but there it is.

Squats, because they don't have one anymore.

nareik wrote:
No one has yet voted for the following:

Necrons 0% [ 0 ]
Space marines 0% [ 0 ]
Space wolves 0% [ 0 ]
Chaos daemons 0% [ 0 ]
Dark angels 0% [ 0 ]
White scars 0% [ 0 ]

I'm not sure what to take from that, but there it is.

And 2 people didnt get the question because they did pick tau...

My vote goes to my Astra Militarum.

I've had greater success with the Blood Angels codex... which I've given up in order to play proper Marines. Codex is junk when you can play Ultramarines in a BA style, and have better success. :(

CSM isn't that bad. They've got issues, and creep has beat them down to lowest teir MEQ army, but they aren't as bad when you actually try to win a game as Guard. They aren't forced to rely upon immobile infantry, or nearly immobile vehicles.

Anyhow, Guard are mostly a victim of the win conditions of 7th edition, more than being ostensibly bad. You can't make a codex in the IG style, with win conditions that require you to move. The whole codex is essentially the opposite of Eldar, which are pretty much crushing the win conditions right now.

If Eldar and Necrons are top dogs, I can't find anything more diametrically opposed to them, then IG. Immobile, and super fragile.

Tempestus and Harlequins. Can't decide between the two.

Even CSM is more competitive than these guys, especially when FW is included.

 Vaktathi wrote:
their entire schtick is pretty much special weapon spam

That's the Veteran "schtick" and I'd respectfully disagree. Scions do reserve deployment, on-call Obsec, backfield penetration, drop Melta, or long-range firefights with Volleyguns. So their uses are usually completely different.

Almost every criteria you are measuring by, is the ability of a unit to get shot to pieces in enormous numbers before returning fire. I'll give you that IG is better at this.

I mean, I've never seen Scions criticized for being poor at bubblewrapping, and I have no idea why you'd bubblewrap a 80-100pt vehicle anyway, but you have a point I guess? Why put 10pt smoke launchers on a fast+shooty BS4 transport, not a HK missile? Why are "only 2" fire points a significant drawback on a squad with 2 special weapons? You're making valid criticisms that are completely disconnected to how the army is effectively played.

At 500-750pts they're awesome as a mono-codex. They need lots of support above that and certain tourney restrictions will hit them much harder than most. But the units themselves can win games. That Tempestus primary at Adepticon (~1000pts) outperformed every IG primary.

Voted 'other' because i couldn't see 'Tempestus Militarum' on the list.

all thats in it is a commissar, a command squad, a scion squad, the taurox, a standard valkyrie (no vendetta) and two formations made from that unit selection.

I think thats a winner personally.

I've actually seen some very interesting mono-harlequins builds lately. The ability to spam haywire weapons and some very deadly (but fragile) combat troops means they can compete alright against some of the 'power' armies like Knights or Battle Company.

Excluding 'not really a codex' codexes, CSM are probably the worst. Their competitive representation in tournaments is generally limited to Belakor + Cultists.

Trasvi wrote:
I've actually seen some very interesting mono-harlequins builds lately. The ability to spam haywire weapons and some very deadly (but fragile) combat troops means they can compete alright against some of the 'power' armies like Knights or Battle Company.

Excluding 'not really a codex' codexes, CSM are probably the worst. Their competitive representation in tournaments is generally limited to Belakor + Cultists.

Belakor isn't even in the codex, he's a dataslate add-on...

The only things that are even semi-competitively worth taking are MSU Plaguemarines, MSU Noise Marines (purely for the Blastmaster + Doom Siren), Oblits, AoBF Jugger Lord w/Spawn escort, MSU Bikers, Cultists and potentially a Helldrake.

Everything else is simply at best 'average', even in purely fun/non-competitive style games. You know your codex is bad when freaking Autocannons are considered your best gun for trying to put out mid-strength + HoR shooting!

100% Militarum Tempestus.

Some people might say it's not a codex, but if you included Skit, Cult, Harli and Knights in your list, then it should be there too.

Funny, nobody has refuted the point I made that the only good lists that people have claimed come from the Ghaz supplement which isn't the Ork Codex and therefore the Ork Codex is pathetically weak.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Funny, nobody has refuted the point I made that the only good lists that people have claimed come from the Ghaz supplement which isn't the Ork Codex and therefore the Ork Codex is pathetically weak.

Maybe nobody noticed/cared. I don't think anyone's that interested in splitting out supplements in a codex poll. To most, they're one and the same.

 Lobukia wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Funny, nobody has refuted the point I made that the only good lists that people have claimed come from the Ghaz supplement which isn't the Ork Codex and therefore the Ork Codex is pathetically weak.

Maybe nobody noticed/cared. I don't think anyone's that interested in splitting out supplements in a codex poll. To most, they're one and the same.

I would reread the title of the topic then "What is the worst codex if you play a pure list ?" To me that means 1 codex and not supplements. And one pure list to me also means not fielding allies, which if you brought stuff from Ghaz supplement would have to be allies.

I dunno, people thought my list was good. Link is in the description!

Would probs go IG myself.

 Frozocrone wrote:
I dunno, people thought my list was good. Link is in the description!

Would probs go IG myself.

This is how I would counter your list. Have the 2 heavy weapon options I take blow up the trukkz containing your meganobz and 1 unit of Tankbustas. They are basically now worthless the rest of the game.

Have the rest of my army focus fire the remaining trukk with Tankbustas in it. Again destroy it and they are now worthless the rest of the game. I know that sounds really easy and doesn't math hammer because im not using specific units but realistically it is incredibly easy to pop a trukk. And for every explodes result you get on a trukk (+2 for AP2 weapons and +3 for AP1 meaning 4 or a 5 makes it explodes) you will lose about 45% of your unit because 6+ armor means you die to a stiff breeze. And if you do suffer an explodes and you do lose 25-45% of your unit you then have to take a morale test, which you will probably fail and then suffer a further 1-6 casualties to Mob rule because (Reasons) unless your unlucky and roll a 1 which means your boyz run away.

So now after popping 3 AV10 transports I have neutered your armies effectiveness, you have 2 squads of boyz that are still mobile, and depending on who got first turn you might not even be able to get to me in turn 2 before I pop 1 or both of those trukkz. The only really good threat is the bikes which will feth up whatever they choose because Jink allows them a free pass. The Lobbas are great for fething up infantry but useless for vehicles. So that brings me to the point I made earlier the only good competitive lists come from the supplement and FW. Otherwise we are Lackluster at best.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Funny, nobody has refuted the point I made that the only good lists that people have claimed come from the Ghaz supplement which isn't the Ork Codex and therefore the Ork Codex is pathetically weak.

Maybe nobody noticed/cared. I don't think anyone's that interested in splitting out supplements in a codex poll. To most, they're one and the same.

I would reread the title of the topic then "What is the worst codex if you play a pure list ?" To me that means 1 codex and not supplements. And one pure list to me also means not fielding allies, which if you brought stuff from Ghaz supplement would have to be allies.

Not saying your thought wasn't right (why would I need to reread the title?). Totally understood from the beginning, just telling you that despite the "pure codex". most think of supplements as part of a codex, not something outside that force.

 Lobukia wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Funny, nobody has refuted the point I made that the only good lists that people have claimed come from the Ghaz supplement which isn't the Ork Codex and therefore the Ork Codex is pathetically weak.

Maybe nobody noticed/cared. I don't think anyone's that interested in splitting out supplements in a codex poll. To most, they're one and the same.

I would reread the title of the topic then "What is the worst codex if you play a pure list ?" To me that means 1 codex and not supplements. And one pure list to me also means not fielding allies, which if you brought stuff from Ghaz supplement would have to be allies.

Not saying your thought wasn't right (why would I need to reread the title?). Totally understood from the beginning, just telling you that despite the "pure codex". most think of supplements as part of a codex, not something outside that force.

'

Its the same faction but not the same codex, if you need to bring it as an allied detachment then it isn't the same codex. You can't take gear from the Waaagh supplement and put it on your Codex Ork guys.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Funny, nobody has refuted the point I made that the only good lists that people have claimed come from the Ghaz supplement which isn't the Ork Codex and therefore the Ork Codex is pathetically weak.

Maybe nobody noticed/cared. I don't think anyone's that interested in splitting out supplements in a codex poll. To most, they're one and the same.

I would reread the title of the topic then "What is the worst codex if you play a pure list ?" To me that means 1 codex and not supplements. And one pure list to me also means not fielding allies, which if you brought stuff from Ghaz supplement would have to be allies.

It's an interesting point.

I mean, at the very least, supplements require extra investment. So, there's certainly an argument to be made that they shouldn't qualify in this regard.

In which case DE probably take the cake as worst codex.

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Funny, nobody has refuted the point I made that the only good lists that people have claimed come from the Ghaz supplement which isn't the Ork Codex and therefore the Ork Codex is pathetically weak.

Maybe nobody noticed/cared. I don't think anyone's that interested in splitting out supplements in a codex poll. To most, they're one and the same.

I would reread the title of the topic then "What is the worst codex if you play a pure list ?" To me that means 1 codex and not supplements. And one pure list to me also means not fielding allies, which if you brought stuff from Ghaz supplement would have to be allies.

Not saying your thought wasn't right (why would I need to reread the title?). Totally understood from the beginning, just telling you that despite the "pure codex". most think of supplements as part of a codex, not something outside that force.

'

Its the same faction but not the same codex, if you need to bring it as an allied detachment then it isn't the same codex. You can't take gear from the Waaagh supplement and put it on your Codex Ork guys.

Good lord child, I know. Reading comprehension

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
I dunno, people thought my list was good. Link is in the description!

Would probs go IG myself.

This is how I would counter your list. Have the 2 heavy weapon options I take blow up the trukkz containing your meganobz and 1 unit of Tankbustas. They are basically now worthless the rest of the game.

Have the rest of my army focus fire the remaining trukk with Tankbustas in it. Again destroy it and they are now worthless the rest of the game. I know that sounds really easy and doesn't math hammer because im not using specific units but realistically it is incredibly easy to pop a trukk. And for every explodes result you get on a trukk (+2 for AP2 weapons and +3 for AP1 meaning 4 or a 5 makes it explodes) you will lose about 45% of your unit because 6+ armor means you die to a stiff breeze. And if you do suffer an explodes and you do lose 25-45% of your unit you then have to take a morale test, which you will probably fail and then suffer a further 1-6 casualties to Mob rule because (Reasons) unless your unlucky and roll a 1 which means your boyz run away.

So now after popping 3 AV10 transports I have neutered your armies effectiveness, you have 2 squads of boyz that are still mobile, and depending on who got first turn you might not even be able to get to me in turn 2 before I pop 1 or both of those trukkz. The only really good threat is the bikes which will feth up whatever they choose because Jink allows them a free pass. The Lobbas are great for fething up infantry but useless for vehicles. So that brings me to the point I made earlier the only good competitive lists come from the supplement and FW. Otherwise we are Lackluster at best.

Tailoring against a list isn't really that hard and any codex can do it. Also "have the 2 heavy weapon options I take blow up the trukks" I guess you are assuming any army 2 heavy weapon and not orks since they need a lot more to do so. So lets think of things in the CSM (Not because they are the worst codex but because I know the codex well enough to tell you stats and options) To take out long range stuff you either got your oblies, havocs or maybe a forge fiend.

A 3 Oblie unit costs 237 points, the only "long" range weapons they have are lascannons and plasma cannons, assuming they use the lascannon since it is easier to hit with it and no chance to overheat. 3 Lascannons with BS4 would do 2 hits, 1.666 of those 2 would be penetrating hits, out of that 0.555 hits will result on an exploded result and 0.2777 on an immobilize, with 3 oblies that doesn't even statistically takes out a trukk and that is commiting one of the best units on the codex which costs 80 more points that a trukk filled with bustas.

Even if the trukk does explodes statistically it does 1.4583 effective wounds on your bustas so you will usually lose one and half of the time 2 bustas, that is hardly 60% of your unit unless you were fielding 5 bustas instead of 10 on the trukk.

Havocs with autocannons were the fuzz back in the day, but with all the ignores cover, AP3 or million of AP- wounding stuff going around nowadays I see less of them in the table, however... a unit with 4 autocannons, which is probably the best loadout would shoot 8 times, hit 5.333, score 2.666 penetratings which would wreck it for sure once you add the glancing hits without harming any busta inside, out of those 2.66 penetratings 0.4444 would be an explosion which means it will rarely happen. If the trukks get any kind of cover they should survive the shots even from the havocs.

So as long as you bring more than one trukk which is pretty much the same for any transport you can't take all of them down before they deliver their cargo, unless you are playing tau, necrons or eldar which treat the orks just the same as any other army and shoot them to shreds with the same ease

Blood Angels are fairly gash. So are Dark Eldar, but Blood Angels shade it. Pretty bad.

Tempestus Scions... literally 5 units in that codex

 Lobukia wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Funny, nobody has refuted the point I made that the only good lists that people have claimed come from the Ghaz supplement which isn't the Ork Codex and therefore the Ork Codex is pathetically weak.

Maybe nobody noticed/cared. I don't think anyone's that interested in splitting out supplements in a codex poll. To most, they're one and the same.

I would reread the title of the topic then "What is the worst codex if you play a pure list ?" To me that means 1 codex and not supplements. And one pure list to me also means not fielding allies, which if you brought stuff from Ghaz supplement would have to be allies.

Not saying your thought wasn't right (why would I need to reread the title?). Totally understood from the beginning, just telling you that despite the "pure codex". most think of supplements as part of a codex, not something outside that force.

'

Its the same faction but not the same codex, if you need to bring it as an allied detachment then it isn't the same codex. You can't take gear from the Waaagh supplement and put it on your Codex Ork guys.

Good lord child, I know. Reading comprehension

He's just looking for attention. In his mind the Orks are the ultimate underdog and have little to no redeeming qualities as an army and wants to bash this idea into every 40K discussion thread possible. It's Orky I grant you, but not always true to the topic at hand. Orks aren't strong by themselves but there are other codices that are weaker by far.

Lord Vayula you've also got to take into account Pinning, Morale and Mob Rule (which you'll pass 50% of the time)

Trukks are Fragile but they are the cheapest way to get something somewhere sharpish.

Also in this hypothetical scenario I roll 6's for all the ramshackle tests

I would agree that Militarum Tempestus is the worst.

Yet that doesn't stop me from wanting to build a small 500pts add on converted up as Colonial Marines.

I'd be pretty affraid of using Cult by itself, without allying with Skitarii its like playing greynights who decided to recycle they're armor into guns

 MrFlutterPie wrote:
I would agree that Militarum Tempestus is the worst.

Yet that doesn't stop me from wanting to build a small 500pts add on converted up as Colonial Marines.

They definitely fit the Kill-Team aspect of 40K more than large scale games.

marcman wrote:
I'd be pretty affraid of using Cult by itself, without allying with Skitarii its like playing greynights who decided to recycle they're armor into guns

Sorry, but could someone elaborate on what makes Cult Mechanicus bad without Skitarii?