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7th may have taken our Spyder-Star from us, but it looks like Obyron has found some new friends to play with...

Obyron
+
Overlord (Phaeron, SW, PS)
+
3x Sentry Pylons (Focused Deathray, IWND*)
=
855 points (810 without IWND)

"Cripes, that's expensive for only 5 models!" I can hear you say.

But here's the thing,

TL;DR-
• 5 models with 3 wounds each, majority toughness 7, and a 2+/3++ to tank
• 3x S10 AP1 3d6" splitfire beams (fired up to 24") that double all hits, which ignore invisibility and jink
• can teleport/deepstrike anywhere on the table, even when locked in combat

Now here's the killer:
As long as this unit is deployed on the table, come movement phase turn 1, Obyron can deepstrike them from your side of the table directly into your opponent's deployment zone. The Pylons can then start drawing lines over anything within their death bubble. If anything is castled/parking lotted up, these lines are going to be devastating.
...
This is one hell of an alpha strike.

To quote another poster:

col_impact wrote:
it would shred up an Imperial Knight and most super-heavies in a turn. It will absolutely decimate other deathstars.

I'm just wondering, how would it fare against other competitive deathstars?

Luckily, because Sentry Pylons are Forge World, most tournaments don't allow them. But for those non-friendly games where this combo would be allowed, how much of a danger does it actually present?

 skoffs wrote:


Luckily, because Sentry Pylons are Forge World, most tournaments don't allow them. But for those non-friendly games where this combo would be allowed, how much of a danger does it actually present?

Sentry Pylons are BAO legal.

I don't want this to become a popular thing D: I am having an amazing time insta-gibbing pretty much all armies.

On top of that, Sentry Pylons are incredibly easy to scratch-build - small kids globe, the extra bits from the Ghost Ark model (Doomsday Cannon) and a few extra parts for the stand and ta-daaaa, your own Sentry Pylon with almost the exact same size.

Well, come on, man. If this is really as good as it seems it's probably only going to be a matter of time before we see it wide spread.
(at least until they FAQ it)

And, uh, I've got *ahem* other sources for FW things. Chinese sources.
...
*cough,cough*
But this might be a good method for people who just want to test it out.

I've been running 3 Pylons for a long time now but mostly used Gauss because FDR is batpoo-insane. After Gauss Sentry Pylons were removed from the game with 7th, I got back to using the FDR and now, our local comp house-ruled it to allow GSP to shoot at all targets with full BS, thus I returned to Gauss

GSP were so damn well-balanced. Filled a gap in an army but were still expensive to get. Removing them with 7th was a truly dumb decision.

Is this death star too good? Does it break the game?

The thing I'm trying to figure out, though, is how worth while this thing is.
I mean, 800-ish points is no minor deal.
For roughly similar price I could field,
• 2x D.Lord+Wraith-Wing
• 5x 5 Warriors in Nightscythes
• a Transcendent C'tan with double Wave of Withering and Trans.Stride

Compared with these options, does the Pyl-O-Star still stand up?
How would everyone rank it with those other options?
(I think the extreme alpha strike it's capable of pulling off would be the biggest deciding factor.)

It's comparable to a Transcendent C'tan, which is on the BAO ban list for LOW

So tell me why again that you can't jink against it?

Id get concerned with counter charges from something like GK and force weapons in CC as well rhino and vehicle protection wil negate a bit of the damage as you cant really target the guys inside till they pop out leaving them ready to charge you (IIRC)

Its a little risky as well as dont they have a decently big foot print? heavy terrain could mess you up (i think) and you are depending on 3d6 distance which iv seen fail horribly.

 jy2 wrote:
So tell me why again that you can't jink against it?

Something something you only allowed to jinx if you are "Targeted" which the beams do not as they target a "point on the table" something along those lines IIRC.

Honestly sounds like a whole lot of Bleh but (like being able to use the line against invisibiled units )

 jy2 wrote:
So tell me why again that you can't jink against it?

You can only jink against attacks that target you. Death Rays don't target.

 jy2 wrote:
So tell me why again that you can't jink against it?

Based on the current wording of Jink a vehicle must be targeted in order to get a Jink.

The Focused Death Ray (as well as the Death Ray), doesn't actually target any units, it targets a point on the battle field and then draws a line 2D6' from that point and all units under the line automatically gets hit. Since the FDR never actually targets the vehicle they don't get to jink, RAW.

Arent units who can only be hit by Snspshots immune to weapons that don't roll to hit as well? That's the wording they used right? If so, doesn't work on invisibles

Units that fire at invisible units can only snap shots

Snap shots: cannot be targeted by templates and things that do not roll to hit

Those rays: you nominate two points (target point on the table) so you dont "target" things or some craziness of that nature.

What if I just reserve all of my stuff to counter deploy your alpha strike and then blow your pylons up?

Are Pylons AV11 rear? so drop pod melta?

bodazoka wrote:
What if I just reserve all of my stuff to counter deploy your alpha strike and then blow your pylons up?

Are Pylons AV11 rear? so drop pod melta?

Auto lose T1? then

Pylons are T7 models and all the incoming fire goes to the IC because of how artillery works. drowning it with a large quantity of poison shots will do well i think.

The only thing particularly threatening that comes to mind would be a Mordrak drop with a ML3 Libby that rolled up Vortex.

Does anyone know of a site that has paper plans like they have for the warhound? I have an escalation tournament in in three weeks and wouldn't mind trying this out. My buddy is already running a transcendent C'Tan. I don't want to be a me too army even though I play necrons pretty much all the time.

 Desubot wrote:

bodazoka wrote:
What if I just reserve all of my stuff to counter deploy your alpha strike and then blow your pylons up?

Are Pylons AV11 rear? so drop pod melta?

Auto lose T1? then

Not an auto lose. You only lose if you have no models on the table at the end of a GAME turn. That's why null deployment drop pod lists work so well, because they can force you to essentially lose your first turn.

 necron99 wrote:
Does anyone know of a site that has paper plans like they have for the warhound? I have an escalation tournament in in three weeks and wouldn't mind trying this out. My buddy is already running a transcendent C'Tan. I don't want to be a me too army even though I play necrons pretty much all the time.

But if you just run this list aren't you also a "me too army?" Not that there's anything wrong with that!

I'm not familiar with the Pylons. Are they squadroned?

If so... I just really can't find myself being too afraid of this thing.


And I don't even see how it's a RAI/RAW issue. As described, the attack is clearly a template-type weapon, and therefore can't be used during snap-shots.If the line is considered "not targeting" the unit because you don' t roll to hit, then by that very same logic templates and blasts wouldn't count as "targeting" a unit either. The wording for how templates interact with units is almost verbatim with how line attacks are described:

The templates and blast markers are used as a way of determining how many models
have been hit by an attack that has an area of effect or blast radius. When an attack uses a
template or blast marker, it will explain how the template is positioned, including any
kind of scatter that might occur (scatter is discussed more completely next in this
section). To work out the number of hits, you normally need to hold the template or blast
marker over an enemy unit or a particular point on the battlefield, and then look
underneath (or through, if using a transparent template) to see how many models lie
partially or completely underneath. A unit takes a hit for each model that is fully,
or even partially, underneath the template or blast marker. Remember that a
model’s base is counted as being part of the model itself, so all a template or blast marker
has to do to cause a hit is to cover any part of the target’s base.

That is a template weapon gentlemen, RAW and RAI.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I'm not familiar with the Pylons. Are they squadroned?

If so... I just really can't find myself being too afraid of this thing.

And I don't even see how it's a RAI/RAW issue. As described, the attack is clearly a template-type weapon, and therefore can't be used during snap-shots.If the line is considered "not targeting" the unit because you don' t roll to hit, then by that very same logic templates and blasts wouldn't count as "targeting" a unit either. The wording for how templates interact with units is almost verbatim with how line attacks are described:

The templates and blast markers are used as a way of determining how many models
have been hit by an attack that has an area of effect or blast radius. When an attack uses a
template or blast marker, it will explain how the template is positioned, including any
kind of scatter that might occur (scatter is discussed more completely next in this
section). To work out the number of hits, you normally need to hold the template or blast
marker over an enemy unit or a particular point on the battlefield, and then look
underneath (or through, if using a transparent template) to see how many models lie
partially or completely underneath. A unit takes a hit for each model that is fully,
or even partially, underneath the template or blast marker. Remember that a
model’s base is counted as being part of the model itself, so all a template or blast marker
has to do to cause a hit is to cover any part of the target’s base.

That is a template weapon gentlemen, RAW and RAI.

Luckily, until they FAQ it, Deathray and Focused Deathray have a method to get around that.
Observe:
• A Pylon, Unit A and B are on the table. They are all assumed to be within 24" of each other.
• Unit A is Invisible. Unit B is just a bunch of TAC marines.
• The Pylon wants to shoot at Unit A, but normally wouldn't be able to because of the "no template weapons against invisible units" snapfire restriction.
• So the Pylon designates Unit B as its "target".
[now here's where the tricky bullish*t comes in]
• The Pylon then nominates the starting point of the beam... next to unit A.
• Roll 3d6. (let's assume the roll comes back as 9.)
• Pylon's controller nominates the end point of the beam 9" away from the starting point... straight through Unit A (let's assume the line crosses 4 models. That's 8 S10 AP1 hits. Take into consideration that Pylons are artillery groups that are normally taken in 3s and you can see how bad this might turn out).
• Unit A might not have been targeted, but it was hit, similar to what might happen if a blast weapon was fired at Unit B but scattered and ended up hitting Unit A.
• Being the case, invisibility and jink, which rely on being the target of an attack, can be circumvented by Deathray style weapons.

All completely legal ... at least until they FAQ it, anyway.
(which hopefully comes sooner rather than later/never)

Wouldn't that still just make unit B one of multiple targets even if not the original unit the gun is fired at?

 SHUPPET wrote:
Wouldn't that still just make unit B one of multiple targets even if not the original unit the gun is fired at?

Assuming you mean Unit A, here (the invisible unit in question).

Well, if it was a blast weapon that had scattered onto them, that wouldn't make it one of multiple "targets", right?
Just the target of the weapon (Unit B) and what actually ended up being hit by the weapon (Unit A, the invisible unit). If that wasn't the case, your own units would be immune from scattered friendly fire blast templates because you can't "target" your own units.
From a RAW perspective there doesn't seem to be anything that would make Unit A suddenly become a "target" just because they happened to be hit.
(though if there is anything that would refute this, I'd gladly accept citation. I'm trying to make sure this thing is airtight).

It's like the old Jaws of the World Wolf. That's probably how I would best describe it. You target 1 unit. Then any other unit that is incidentally hit by the line after the 1st unit is fair game.

Except in this case, the Deathray doesn't even need to hit the initial target at all!
(otherwise, blast templates that completely miss their chosen targets would be violating the rules).

I do think it should be FAQ'd this way (jy2's JotWW example, where it has to at least hit the initial target), to make it more fair, but at the moment, RAW has no problem with the Deathray line being drawn anywhere its controller wants within range of the model firing it.

OH, forgot something important!
They need to FAQ it so that Deathray weapons can not hit units engaged in combat!
(at the moment there is nothing preventing them from doing so (much like blast templates are able to scatter and hit units in combat) except for the good sportsmanship of their controller).

bodazoka wrote:
What if I just reserve all of my stuff to counter deploy your alpha strike and then blow your pylons up?

Are Pylons AV11 rear? so drop pod melta?

Pylons are Artillery, not Vehicles.

 skoffs wrote:


OH, forgot something important!
They need to FAQ it so that Deathray weapons can not hit units engaged in combat!
(at the moment there is nothing preventing them from doing so (much like blast templates are able to scatter and hit units in combat) except for the good sportsmanship of their controller).

Bonus points for sacrificing your own models to increase the number of hits generated by the FDR o/

What makes this uber-broken isn't the Death Ray weapon. It's the fact that you can set up a Jump-Shoot each turn deal on an artillery which is a gun emplacement that is not meant to be jumped shot each turn. If artillery rolled back to 6th ed wording where artillery are prohibited from becoming relentless, then nothing breaks.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
They need to FAQ it so that Deathray weapons can not hit units engaged in combat!
(at the moment there is nothing preventing them from doing so (much like blast templates are able to scatter and hit units in combat) except for the good sportsmanship of their controller).

Bonus points for sacrificing your own models to increase the number of hits generated by the FDR o/

Well, we know won't be getting the good sportsmanship award in YOUR tournament...

I'll throw in my 2 cents having actually ran a very similar combination in 6th ed a couple of times.

I ran 3 Deathray pylons, Obyron and Zandrekh (giving the unit extra oomph or defenciveness in the form of stealth).

While the unit looks very impressive on paper it doesn't match up on the tabletop.
Good opponents immediately positioned their valuable units so that it was impossible to hit all their important stuff at the same time (or hit them enough if I targeted each pylon separately). Clever opponents also spread out, limiting the places where you can safely deepstrike.

Wraithknights and riptides laugh at this deathstar, as do greater daemons - you'll need to dedicate all your pylons to kill one of these creatures and you'll still probably not actually manage it.

The main problem is that the pylons will not actually do that much damage turn one unless the opponent has no clue what he's doing and bunches everything up.


On survivability.
Vs shooting T7 is nice, but remember that you are bunched up. Plasma blasts wreck your day. Also you'll have a total of 15 wounds, 9 of which are 3+, 1 is 2+ and 1 is 2+/3++. You CANNOT position your overlord so that they'll eat all the lascannon equivalent stuff thrown your way. Also anything S7 will pile wounds on you quickly (tesla, serpent shields).

The worst part is that unlike other deathstars as soon as you take 3 wounds you lose a LOT of your effectiveness (either a char or a pylon). If i remember correctly characters cannot pass wounds onto artillery, so that limits wound allocation shenanigans (might be wrong here, please take with salt).

In assault you are toast vs anything with proper assault capabilities. You'll only have 6 T5 wounds with 2+ and 2+/3++.

As I said before - the moment you start losing pylons (which will be the turn after you DS into the middle of enemy forces) you will start losing effectiveness very quickly.

My experience is that while its a good build in theory it doesn't work that well against a competent player in game.

But don't take my word for it, go take the build out for a game or two and see how it works for you.