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Made in de
Mysterious Techpriest






I'm a proud owner of a Harder&Steenbeck Evolution CR Plus for 2 days now.
I got myself a Dreadnought with the intention of basecoating the bastard with the brush, then maybe use it for some highlighting goodness.

Boy, little did I know.
After 2 days and 8 hours I feel a wee bit frustrated, but I see a little bit of progress.
I'll describe my problems in the hopes of some of you having some tips and advice for me before I decide to put the darn thing on ebay It seems to me there are 3 key points I need to learn: distance, consistency and pressure.

Instead of writing the story of my airbrush failures as I orginially intended I'll go straight to the points...

If the colour "pools" more like a wash (edges sticking out etc.), it is because I thinned it down too much?

While working on a piece of paper and trying some lines I noticed the colour "splattering" upwards (likely following the airflow) and the dots I tried to make "sprinkled" outwards in a circular fashiion. Didn't sputter, was just way less precise than I would like it.
What could be a cause for this? Too much pressure?

Getting closer however causes the air to push the not dried yet colour away even with the lever hardly pushed back. Again too much psi here?
I prime with ~30 psi and for Citadel's I go down to ~18 psi, still feels like an awful lot, especially if I try to go into corners and crannys I missed. Basecoating should be done from like... 6 inches or something?

I know this is a debated topic (since I tried to do the research multiple times already without good result), but is there a VMA aquivalent to the Citadel DA range (Caliban Green, Warpston Glow etc)? Not having wrong colour constistency as an error source would be quite handy...




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Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

Okay, fairly new myself but got that nasty stuff sorted out you are talking about.

1) Paint: Watchya using? The cheaper the paint, the more in need of filtering out "gunk" you may need. Make sure no dried bits or the paint is very thick.
2) Thinning paints: Choices are: buy "air medium" and mix 1:1 with your paint OR make a mixture of distilled water and ethyl-alcohol (more alchohol = more drying) and mix 1:1 with paint OR buy specifically air brush specific paints (Badger has a great new line or Vallejo Air).
3) Is that the 0.15 needle??? I have a 0.20 and it got clogged like crazy when I was using "normal" paints, only fine artist paints seem to work with those suckers (Liquitex mixed or the above paints I mentioned work perfectly). I went to a Badger 105 for the 0.40 opening and then all was well. Think this is the #1 "problem".
4) Try lowering pressure around 20psi and see how it goes: higher viscosity paint = higher pressure.
5) "Flow regulators" screwed into the base of the airbrush may help regulate air flow and may help control the flow a bit better.
6) You have a moisture trap in the air line correct? Will help with any spatter issues.
7) With such a small nozzle you may not be able to pull back far enough without the paint drying too much and not getting a very wide coverage.
8) Best thing I was told: Always have air on, start to turn-on paint before aiming at the object to paint and sweep across with two hands and turn off paint after passing the part.
<edit> 9) Spattering "upwards" may be caused by the nozzle getting dried paint build-up and some at the tip of the needle can happen, rinse / purge often! Really careful with that needle, easy to damage / bend.

If you have any pictures of the "defects" I have many memories of mine that could help.

Good luck!!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/03 21:21:30


A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte 
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

Basically what you're describing is a combination of distance, pressure and viscosity, and altering any or all could solve your problem.

Too close will give you the same result as too high psi or too thin paint.

Moving the brush further away will solve the issue just as easily as using thicker paint or lowering psi.

All three factors need to be within tolerances for it to work (don't worry, unless you're doing hardcore detail work or free handing, the tolerances can be quite generous) and adjusting one can work just as well as another.

I'd suggest grabbing some specialist airbrush (Vallejo or Badger) paint to practice with, then you can essentially remove "too thin" from the list of issues.

You can't really go too wrong at 20psi for most jobs, so if you're using something in that ball park, your paint is too thin or your holding the brush too close/spraying too much paint on the area.

It's all about balance, keep practicing and you'll get it!

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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Made in de
Mysterious Techpriest






1. Currently exclusively Citadel ones for the color matching. Watched more closely while thinning and saw paint specks in there that may have very well caused the cluttering... Gonna get a new pot, should help.

2. I use Liquitex... Figured a specialiced thinner works better than anything else Citadels are, afaik, fine for airbrushing if thinned down. Did some test with another basecolour and it worked way better...

3. Yes, its the 0.2 one. Not that good for basecoating it seems.. Gotta look into the 0.4 one before I dare touch something like a Rhino.

4. Already went to 20 and below, the air flow seemed still quite strong, but without experience I can't tell... :/

5. Ah, thats the lil screw in the air supply... :p

6. Yes, moisture trap is built onto the compressor. Don't think thats the reason though.

I really think the biggest part of my problems was with the old, somewhat dried paint. Didn't have such issues with the Primer (Vallejo Grey). Getting the .4 Nozzle should help with basecoating. If I run into this issues again I'll be sure to snap a pic or two...
And thanks for the advice, starting to get a picture on what went wrong

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Made in us
Rampaging Furioso Blood Angel Dreadnought





Boston, MA

Liquitex is the best and the easiest to work with. Sounds like a jerk thing to say, but just practice lol. It is a steep learning curve but you've got the right tools.

The h&s can run at very low psi, like 14-18... mix your paints in a clear plastic cup, think skim milk consistency, but the clear cup helps you get know what works for you by sight.

Please check out my photo blog: http://atticwars40k.blogspot.com/ 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





USA

Simple solution, dont pull your trigger back so far, build your color up slowly, it take practice.

A.

   
Made in de
Mysterious Techpriest






Yeh, the old practice thing... Not jerky at all, but simple truth
Really, I think with a bigger nozzle and a fresh pot of paint basecoating should work fine.
Still can't get a VMA corresponding colour to Caliban Green, so I'm stuck mixing - but after using some Macragge Blue for testing purposes I think I can get the viscosity into the tolerable parameters. If 20 PSI is around the right ballpark, that leaves just the distance to really work with - and the bigger nozzle will help with that as well.
The frustrating part really was the non-stop clogging (and the subsequent time cleaning the gak out of the brush) which lead to the mixing errors which lead to distance errors...
Let's hope I can present my first airbrushed Dread in a few days (or rather weeks after multiple strips )

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Made in gb
Been Around the Block




at first glace like the others have said viscosity seems to be low, but more importantly I think your putting far too much paint on.
Even using quite a thick ish paint mix and more pressure to make it flow you would be looking at multiple coats to get coverage of a color. If your paints thin then back off the pressure ( even down to 5psi if very thin paint is used ) and use more passes, usually when doing this your coat is more wet than you may be used to but you need to stop applying before it start pooling or running and allow it to dry a bit. Have a hairdryer in your other hand will help speed up drying.
Its just practice mate so dont worry, if anything using a very thin paint with an airbrush is better cos you can build a color up in multiple coats and create very nice effects and subtle tonal changes easily but its harder to get used to, also your needle setup is quite unforgiving perhaps a .5 needle would be a good investment for you and make your life a bit easier.

your constant clogging will either be dry tip problems or more likely the pigment grind is a bit more coarse than the needle may like, a metallic would probably magnify the issue. the distance is a variable that in airbrushing isnt a set thing, for filling areas your further away and blowing large amounts of paint, for doing a .5mm line your up close with the needle tip almost touching the surface, pressure is still the same in both instances but your easing the trigger back much much less and more carefully when closer.

To help most of my work is done around the 20psi - 40psi mark and usually to the lower end of that scale, 99% is using a .5 needle setup i rarely feel the need to go down to even .3 anything less and its overkill and into photo retouching territory that we simply dont need.
For just plain practicing grab some scrap paper and set it up like an artist and just throw a few drops of any random black into a cup of water ( even fountain pen ink would do just anything to color the water ) and start doing dots and lines on the paper, get used to starting and ending them exactly where you want and at the thickness you want. Use a really low pressure or you will throw so much paint out it spiders instantly, just get used to the brush and then play with the pressure reg to see how the changes affect your spray pattern etc and what you can do to compensate the change and get back to the result you had, this way your not ruining a model, stressing yourself out and more importantly giving yourself a bad experience with the airbrush.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/04 07:51:48


 
   
Made in de
Mysterious Techpriest






Ordered the .4 needle, which seems to be the largest available, yesterday .2 seems really to be unforgiving.

Will continue to practice with some paint&paper, it really helps out as you said.

But there are still two things I don't get yet... The upward sputtering when trying to do lines (I suppose there is some residue in the noozle left I didn't reallly get rid of) and, most importantly, I don't understand yet how you do really fine lines.
Even with sub 20 psi, when I get close to the paper, the airflow pushes the color away. I first noticed this when I tried to basecoat the recess areas on the side torso of the dead where later its arms will sit. Didn't want to overcoat, so getting close with barely any colour should do the trick.. right? The airflow just feels SO strong at this distances (an inch or 2)... Or is the viscosity too high?

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





It's not only the needle but the nozzle that you want to swap.

I find I get good enough detail with 0.5, and I feel it allows slightly thicker paints and clogs less.

hello 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




The upward sputtering first, it could be dirt in the nozzle or a bent needle causing the spray pattern to go off and put paint on the inside of the crown cap then once enough builds up you get a splat fly off. Try spraying with the crown cap off and see if the problem resolves itself.
Add water to your brush and spray whitest looking from the side and make sure your spray patten is straight and not heading upwards slightly this would be a bent needle or damaged nozzle most likely.
To get really fine lines you get very very close to the surface, you said your closest has been 2 inches try lowering your air pressure and moving in to about 2-3 mm away from he surface that will give a nice tight line but remember to stay moving, have air on all the time and just ease onto the paint when you need it.
Your last issue you have self diagnosed and are correct, either too much pressure or there's too much viscosity. Since you have been about 20 psi that's not your issue so I'd be looking at your paint as the issue there.
To help with that issue when your needing really thin paint ie transparent black say for a very subtle shadow you need to thin it loads but there will be a certain point when it's pigments simply can't hold together cos it's too thin, that's where medium comes in, it's a non coloured binder that will make the paint transparent but hold it together at the same time.
What are you using to thin yours with? If it's iso or another alcohol leave the lid off for a while and it will thicken a bit or add more colour but it sounds like it's very very thin.
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

I must also agree / reinforce: the needle and nozzle must be a matched pair, the nozzle is really the issue since you need a bigger opening to pass paint easier.

I learned the nozzle too small lesson by using a "createx" paint for more general use and was clogging all the time. Was VERY frustrating. I do love my 0.2 brush but you basically need to run inks in something that small and is pretty much ideal for fine lines not block painting, base coating or priming.

One thing I found good/fun was that sometimes I laid down too much paint say on a face of a model, liberal use of the air from the brush to blow it around and level it out was cool. I found this helpful for pushing "shader" paints around to avoid splotches.

Start looking into various forms of masking surfaces, this is what I am getting into so that I can get most of the "bulk" painting done while still using my skills for tiny hair brush work for final details.

I think once you get past this bump (will not underestimate how irritating it must have felt, I had the exact same problem starting) you will have MUCH more fun from here-on.

<edit> Found the most useful / pleasant means of painting with an airbrush is I gravel the bases of my miniatures and it was really hard on a brush to paint them AND used a ton of paint, airbrush makes it 1/10th the time and paint.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/07/04 13:01:19


A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte 
   
Made in de
Mysterious Techpriest






again, thanks for the quality advice. This is why I love dakka

@Jeff Will try that. I use Liquitex for thinning, but I guess I just "overthinned". When I tried to paint the "faceplate" of the dread the colour just didn't stick and was really really wet. But after all that clogging due to bad paint and the small .2...

@Tali/Dabar Yes, sorry, bad choice of words.. Or rather a lack of knowledge I ordered the entire set for the .4, so it should be needle, noozle and whatever the feth I need. DIdn't know the .2 is such a fine tool... But at least I have something once I improve enough to go for this kind of work

Good lord, why didn't I think of the airgun-function? Since I work with enamels already... oh the clean paintjobs...

I'm trying to go the paint-then-assemble-route at first. It itches me to stick the parts together... you know, the satisfactory result and the like So for the effects I go for I don't need to mask yet but I definately plan to once I get a grasp on this.

I absolutely believe you with the fun part... The rare moments when it worked were just great... The smooth coat, the speed it worked... Its just such a huge difference to rattle cans (the prime reason I got the brush in the first place). And when I get a good model done, I'll prolly gle like a 6 yr old at christmas

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Made in de
Mysterious Techpriest






Quick update guys. The .4 set arrived today and I couldn't wait and gave it a try.
Had some old ruins around (the one corner of a building type) and I primed and basecoated both with only a very small issue. Had some splotches which I immediately could trace to dried paint on the tip. I oversprayed some areas (had to happen with grey basecoat on a grey primer) but thats practice. Tomorrow Il'll try.spraying Ardcoat in preparation for an oil wash, some drybrushing and maybe some details for looks. So i'm kinda in the business now

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Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

Good stuff!

Glad you got down to root cause and obtained some measure of satisfaction getting something done.
Ruins seem to be best for fantastic results with little work... feels like cheating in comparison with a brush.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/07/06 04:09:40


A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block




Glad to hear your sorted out again. Try getting some airbrush lube, ie superlube or similar, if you have a car bodyshop near by pop in and ask if they have any paint gun lube about and they should be able to let you have some, a little goes a long way and can help with dry tip. chance your arm and ask for some fine scotchbrite while your there its really good for scuffing up plastics and getting extra adhesion prior to painting, especially if your masking for airbrushing after a few layers.
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

Needle lube: run across forehead without poking yourself.
Works and no cost.

A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte 
   
 
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