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Hey Dakka,
I've just finished re-basing 1000 points of old old Dark Elves for a campaign that I'm getting involved with in the hope that I start to play a little more WHFB, now these things are 'no oil painting' at any stretch but there's some cool old models in there and they look alright on the table. Job's a good 'un and I'm sure that if everyone enjoys playing (there are some new players starting out) we'll have a good time.
Now I'm not the worst painter in the world and I'm certainly not the best but I'm a little reluctant to post them up in the P+M Showcase as I know that I can do way better...
Some examples.....









Now, I remember back in the day 'Joined Dakka on: 2008/07/03 13:25:48' there seemed to be a lot more 'normal' people posting pics to the best of their painting ability, just as a way of showing what they'd been up to. These days the P+M Showcase (which I realise is fairly new) seems to be teeming with fantastic models that have been painted by genetically engineered commission painter super humans with bionic eyes that were born with 00001 brushes as fingers and airbrushes as nostrils. Now I love looking at these pics as the hobby has always been very aspirational for me, in that sense, but there comes a point where I'm happy with my abilities for a certain project and 'smash it out' to a given level.I like to play with painted models! Another thing I like to look at is other peoples actual armies that they take to tournaments and have spent their free time working on. You know, real gamers?

Anyway, just some ramblings from me and hopefully a discussion starter but do you think that the P+M Showcase is a little daunting/intimidating, especially for new gamers?
Is there a need for a 'Pro P+M Showcase', Procase?

Edit: Oh yeah, if a MOD wants to move this to the Dakka Discussions Board, YMDC or elsewhere then feel free, I'm sure that's where all of the gamers who gave up painting have moved to.

Hey Alex!

Thank you for posting! It was refreshing to read/see a post from somebody that feels so similar to the way I feel about painting. It can definitely be intimidating when you look at the models on the P&M board, but hey who cares? Just go for it and have fun with it!

In all seriousness though I think your models look great! I especially like the Land Raider. They all look absolutely fantastic!

Only critique (constructive critique mind you) would be to add in a few more minute details to finish it off. Give the tanks treads some dirt on them and maybe some rust or dings on the plating. I think that might give it a little more depth. I find that having the models look a little dirty makes them look a lot more realistic. I don't know what word to use other than "depth".

Love the ogre dude! His skin flesh is perfect! And you did the scarring really well! I can only imagine how small (25mm I assume?) that model is and to get those details isn't easy!

The malonthrope is boss! Haha painted or not that model is awesome! I have one in the mail on its way to me as we speak! Same suggestion on that guy though, you did the darks really well. Washed it up and gave it some dimension. But I think if you did some highlights to it it would bring out that "depth" a little more. With Tyranids it is a little harder to do on the skin. I have the same issue with my Tyranids, you can see the pics on my gallery. So I am kind of out on suggestions of how to highlight it out a little more. I am working on what might look best for my own models.

Any suggestions there?

Overall though Alex these look great! Post them on P&M! People are in general pretty nice on here. And even if they do leave a mean comment... screw em! Just internet people anyways!

Great work! Keep it up!

Definitely throw them up in Showcase, they meet the requirements and are very good to boot.

There is some great professional work on there, but plenty of more 'attainable' stuff as well. That's not to say the pro stuff isn't attainable, but you see what I mean. I don't they think there's any need for a separate board, the range and variety of stuff is part of what makes this community so inspiring.

A professional sub-forum would be an absolute disaster. There would be constant arguing about who deserves to go in it, and then everyone who doesn't get the privilege of posting there would have the shame of being restricted to the "you suck at painting" gallery.

 Peregrine wrote:
A professional sub-forum would be an absolute disaster. There would be constant arguing about who deserves to go in it, and then everyone who doesn't get the privilege of posting there would have the shame of being restricted to the "you suck at painting" gallery.

Professional would entail that they paint as a profession and make money from it; commission painters. It would certainly radicalise the industry so to speak, as posting in that board would put you in direct competition with every other thread. Prices would fluctuate and paintjob quality skyrocket as everyone seeks to outdo each other's work for cheaper or similar price.

Meanwhile the P&M showcase can remain for people's personal works and all the guys who just like painting.


And to end, those minis are fantastic. Would love to see more ^_^

First things first: your models look great and there is no reason to not post them in the P&M Showcase. An overwhelmingly vast majority of the people that frequent that forum are friendly and supportive and are careful to only give constructive criticism. There are a few outliers, but I wouldn't worry about them.

A "Procase" forum would probably be a disaster. When it comes to painting and modeling, the term "professional" is rather nebulous. To some people it means you get paid to paint models, to others it means you have an extremely high level of skill, and yet to others it means both of those things. In my time on this forum and others, I've seen actual professional commission painters that get paid to paint things for other people that are what I consider below average painters. But you know what, that's okay because if there is a market for what they offer, more power to them! There are also people that paint just for the fun of it and are incredibly skilled but have neither the desire or effort to branch out in to professional commission painting. Making another subforum for "professional" painters solves no problems as there would still be outstanding, average, and sub par work being posted in both forums.

Okay, firstly thanks everyone for all the kind words/encouragement. All of the above figures have already been in the showcase at some point, I ain't scared of a little C+C, that's not really my issue. It wasn't my intention to create this thread for an ego boost but more to discuss the workings of the Showcase thanks anyway guys, I feel all warm inside now.

Now, here's a sample of the Dark Elves in question, I probably should have put this in the op to put things in context. Bare in mind that these models were painted probably 18 years ago!
I've no interest in receiving C+C on these as I know that I can do better but for some people this quality of paint is acceptable or even something to aspire to.



I agree wholly with Deadshot on the matter, my thought is to let the people who call themselves Pro, Commission or Studio have their own space to put their work up where critique will surely be harsh but fair and a gentler more accessible place for mere mortals, gamers and beginners to show their skills/progression.

I'd be sure to visit both the Showcase and the Procase depending on what mood I'm in. Sometimes I'm looking for a simple basing scheme or colour combo or want to make myself feel like I'm an okay painter, I'd go to the showcase. Other times I want my socks blown off by superhuman skill and visit the Procase.
I'm just a little worried that we might be scaring off the noobs.

Fun fact, at the time of posting 17 of the 48 threads in the P+M Showcase are by people who openly call themselves Commission painters, XYZ Studio or Professional somesuch.
Would that be enough to warrant it's own sub forum?

Edit: Another idea would be to ask 'Pros' to use a given phrase/marker/structure in their thread titles similar to the swap shop. Might be a fun experiment.

 Alex Kolodotschko wrote:
I agree wholly with Deadshot on the matter, my thought is to let the people who call themselves Pro, Commission or Studio have there own space to put their work up where critique will surely be harsh but fair and a gentler more accessible place for mere mortals, gamers and beginners to show their skills/progression.

The bottom line is you are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. You're also trying to segment a group of people that don't need to be segmented. You can be a commission painter and a gamer just the same as you can be a commission painter and not have award-winning talent. There are plenty of high-level painters than aren't "professional" or sell themselves as a commission painter; they paint purely for the joy of it. Not to mention I've seen "beginners" whose work better than someone who has been painting for 20+ years. Who decides what is "pro" and what isn't?

I started selling myself as a painter-for-hire six months ago and I offer one "level" of painting: the best I can do in the time given to me. Granted, I'm no fantastically amazing artist, but my work before I became commission painter is no different than it is now. I'm not a professional painter by any stretch of the imagination; I have a normal job and I paint stuff for people because I enjoy it and it helps fund my hobby. Who would decided where I am allowed to share my work?

I'd be sure to visit both the Showcase and the Procase depending on what mood I'm in. Sometimes I'm looking for a simple basing scheme or colour combo or want to make myself feel like I'm an okay painter, I'd go to the showcase. Other times I want my socks blown off by superhuman skill and visit the Procase.
I'm just a little worried that we might be scaring off the noobs.

Scare off the noobs? My first post in this forum was the sixth model I had ever painted I painted and I received nothing but words of encouragement and constructive criticism, which in my years here have proven to be the norm. I've already addressed the fact that lots of commission painters are winning Crystal Brushes or Golden Demons; they're people like you and me that have a market for what they offer, often times large volumes of work in short amounts of time. Hell, the number of services offering "tabletop quality" is much higher than the high end market. They aren't in business to blow your sucks off with their amazing work but rather get a large number of models painted nicely for gaming in a reasonable amount of time.

Fun fact, at the time of posting 17 of the 48 threads in the P+M Showcase are by people who openly call themselves Commission painters, XYZ Studio or Professional somesuch.

So?

Would that be enough to warrant it's own sub forum?

No.

Edit: Another idea would be to ask 'Pros' to use a given phrase/marker/structure in their thread titles similar to the swap shop. Might be a fun experiment.

A lot of people already do and making it a rule would be pointless.

Really, there is just no need for a "procase" forum because it would probably do more harm than good. The Showcase is fine the way it is: hobbyists of all skill levels to show of their work to be admired to our fellow Dakka-ites and to help foster a sense of community. Trying to split people up is counterproductive to that.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

Edit: Another idea would be to ask 'Pros' to use a given phrase/marker/structure in their thread titles similar to the swap shop. Might be a fun experiment.

A lot of people already do and making it a rule would be pointless.

Not a single thread of the 17 on the first page is marked in any way and only 1 on the second page.....So perhaps it's not that dumb of an idea.

 Alex Kolodotschko wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

Edit: Another idea would be to ask 'Pros' to use a given phrase/marker/structure in their thread titles similar to the swap shop. Might be a fun experiment.

A lot of people already do and making it a rule would be pointless.

Not a single thread of the 17 on the first page is marked in any way and only 1 on the second page.....So perhaps it's not that dumb of an idea.

You're basing your entire argument on one page in the Showcase forum while conveniently glossing over every single point I made that shows it is a dumb idea. So yeah, it's still a dumb idea. Forcing people to label themselves is asinine.

There is no other way to put it: commission painter =/= mind blowing skill

What I am starting to think is that you want a place to go where you can look at painters who aren't as talented as you but where you can't see people better than you all just so you can feel good about yourself. I hope that isn't the case though.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

 Alex Kolodotschko wrote:

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

Edit: Another idea would be to ask 'Pros' to use a given phrase/marker/structure in their thread titles similar to the swap shop. Might be a fun experiment.

A lot of people already do and making it a rule would be pointless.

Not a single thread of the 17 on the first page is marked in any way and only 1 on the second page.....So perhaps it's not that dumb of an idea.

You're basing your entire argument on one page in the Showcase forum while conveniently glossing over every single point I made that shows it is a dumb idea. So yeah, it's still a dumb idea. Forcing people to label themselves is asinine.

There is no other way to put it: commission painter =/= mind blowing skill

What I am starting to think is that you want a place to go where you can look at painters who aren't as talented as you but where you can't see people better than you all just so you can feel good about yourself. I hope that isn't the case though.

You are reading far too much into this. What I believe we, or at least I, am suggesting, is a place where commission painters, who make money off of painting, can be compared fairly and directly with their competitors. Like any market, they need to show that they are worth the cost for the results and if that be TT quality in 30 days for 2K army, or 1 GD standard model in a year, they must prove themselves. The Showcase forum can be used by anyone for their private works, as long as its not advertised as belonging to a "Studio" or done as a commission.

Its not fair to the "mere mortals" and people who are starting out (and aren't demigods of the brush) to be compared to the commissioners with their airbrushing and OSL and NMM wonderpieces.


Frankly, letting commission painters show off their works on Dakka is basically free advertising, so having to be compared to other commissioned painters will have to make them step up. Its a win for everyone. The Painters can show off or get motivation to work harder, and the people looking commissions can compare prices and quality, as quality rises and prices fluctuate.

@ ScootyPuff Junior:

My initial "argument" (I prefer discussion) set up in the OP was twofold.

 Alex Kolodotschko wrote:

Do you think that the P+M Showcase is a little daunting/intimidating, especially for new gamers?
Is there a need for a 'Pro P+M Showcase', Procase?

You're obviously a confident person who also has an inherent talent for the hobby. Well done for getting so good so quickly btw.
Most wargamers that I have met aren't quite as confident though. The showcase is imo beginning to give an unrealistic view of what is an acceptable standard and this might be enough to dissuade newer or less skilled people from putting themselves out there and increasing their chances of improving.
Ultimately this may well lead to more people hanging up their brushes, playing unpainted armies or even worse stopping wargaming altogether.

Splitting the forum into two could well be advantageous to both sub-forums in that each post will stay on the first page longer giving it more exposure and potentially more replies.

I am not purely basing this discussion on the first page alone but more on general observations that I have made over my years on this site. I'd be happy to get some 'real' figures together if the avenue is worth going down but my "Fun fact" displayed my point quite nicely I felt.

There is no need for a "procase" forums, a "commission" forum, or any other nonsense no matter which way you slice it. There is nothing unrealistic about the current Showcase forum. You want to get better? Practice. You don't want to feel sorry for yourself? Don't look at other people's work. This notion of "fairness" in an all-skill-levels-welcome Showcase like we have is silly. Like I've already said, I personally did not magically increase in skill level just because I found someone willing to pay for my work. So for someone like me, up until the very first time someone paid me for work, I would have been posting in the second tier forum that you are proposing. How would that have been "fair" for someone who has only painted on space marine?

It's a bad idea and one that separates the Dakka community. If you want to look at people that aren't as good as you, go to CMoN and browse the gallery lowest rating to highest and drop this ridiculous "procase" idea.

By the way gentlemen, there is already a place on Dakka for commission painters to show off their work to get customers: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/612233.page

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

By the way gentlemen, there is already a place on Dakka for commission painters to show off their work to get customers: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/612233.page

There's a few reasons that it's failed a number of times too and why there has only been one 'sign up' in the last 5 days.
In the meantime the commission painters are all using the Showcase.
I'm sure that the majority would prefer a more competitive, professional forum to display their works in and chat to their peers.
I know this may sound a bit like the big kids are hogging the swings in the park but that's not my intention.
I honestly think that it would be a great resource.

 Alex Kolodotschko wrote:
There's a few reasons that it's failed a number of times too and why there has only been one 'sign up' in the last 5 days.

Or maybe because it's new and requires a P&M Blog, P&M thread, or P&M Showcase thread. Not everyone has a thread that they continually update to show off their work. I don't (yet), so I can list myself there. The old list was way too cumbersome and I feel like this new way of doing it will be much more streamline.

In the meantime the commission painters are all using the Showcase.

As it is intended.

I'm sure that the majority would prefer a more competitive, professional forum to display their works in and chat to their peers.

Everyone here is equal. As a member with a as long a history as you do, you should recognize that Dakka is pretty damn egalitarian, especially compared to the internet at large.

I know this may sound a bit like the big kids are hogging the swings in the park but that's not my intention.

That is exactly what it sounds like. One more time for posterity: "professional" is a nebulous term that not everyone can agree on so trying to segment a group of people on that basis is inherently pointless.

I honestly think that it would be a great resource.

We have resources in place already, there is no need to make it more complicated.

I get it, you don't think it's "fair" that people you consider "professional" get to share their work in the same place as the "mere mortals"... oh well. If it bothers you that much, take your ball and go home. What Dakka has isn't broken and it sure as hell doesn't need to be fixed.

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:
What Dakka has isn't broken and it sure as hell doesn't need to be fixed YET.

Fixed.
I'm just making some suggestions that could lead to improvements. No need to get so defensive.

I have always seen good painters threads as a good inspiration.
Seeing nice models makes me want to paint nice models. Seeing wide armies deployed on a gaming table is what made me paint my own armies.


I have gotten inspiration, motivation from internet forums like this one. I have received lots of comments and tips on my painting, wich helped me improve my skills.


It doesn't matter if the painter is a "pro" or not. Anyway, pro-painter doesn't mean much, there are lots of "pro-painted" models around the net that are rubbish.
The painter is basically a guy (or a girl) with a brush, nothing more. Pro or not, we all started from the beginning.


I'm neither a "pro" nor a top level painter, but I reached a level wich allows me to paint good looking models in a reasonnable amount of time.
But my first models sucked. No shadings, no highlights, no details.

I'd be against the idea of segmenting the showcase into pro and casual painters simply because its a showcase for beautifully painted miniatures, when I go there to comment and look at other peoples work I dont suddenly find a miniature less appealing because it was painted better or by "a pro". The showcase's purpose is to give a place to comment and critique on models, be they from a beginner or a "pro" doesnt change that purpose.

I personally do commissions in my spare time, and I'm not golden daemon standard in painting. I appreciate the comments and critique I get in the showcase and to suddenly split the traffic that those threads get in two, especially when some showcase threads struggle to get a comment anyway seems like it'd harm the process more than help.

In short, when you go into a commission thread you've said yourself that you can identify if it was pro or amateaur painted... so where's the issue?

To give some scope, here's where I was the first time I posted properly in the showcase:


So I got comments, critique, some of what I've gotten over the years has been brutal but thats kinda the point, to help people improve.

And here's where I am today, in part due to the comments and critique i recieved each time I posted up on how to improve:

So we can add ScottyPuff to the against column then.

I like the idea as it's not like there's limited room on the internet and I think it can be intimidating for newer painters. I'd consider myself above average as a painter and can tell a good job from a gimmick (check my links below). I don't think it needs any policing, it'll be pretty obvious who belongs.

Anyone (else) have a view?

i thought that there had already been a consensus agreed to that commission painters should put "commission" in the title of their thread when posting minis painted on commission...
it seems to have fallen by the wayside in the last month or two...
most studios already have "studio"in their title...

i understand where you are coming from, Alex...
i don't think it needs a different forum, because, as Scooty said, who will be the judge of who's work makes it into the "pro" forum???
some people will end up feeling very left out if their work doesn't make the cut...
as has been said, there are many "pro" painters out there who don't have the skills yet to win a Golden Demon, but are still being paid to paint armies...
army painting is a whole different beast compared to display or Demon level painting...
there are many different skill levels of commission painters out there...

while i don't care, i think it is fair to put "commission" or "studio" in the title for those who it applies to...
if one does not want to see "high quality" work, then they don't have to open that thread...
simple...

cheers
jah

It'd be good to hear what some more 'high end' commission painters think on the subject.
Thanks for the insight Jah, I hadn't realised that that was already the case.
It's a rule/suggestion that personally I'd like to see followed a bit more closely.

 Alex Kolodotschko wrote:
It'd be good to hear what some more 'high end' commission painters think on the subject.

Notice that he said the same thing I did: commission painting is not an indication of skill.

It's a rule/suggestion that personally I'd like to see followed a bit more closely.

It isn't a "rule" and it shouldn't be. Your only argument to why it should be a rule is because someone might get the feels if they unknowingly click on a showcase thread by a person who paints for money that may be a better painter than them. Which, as I've already explained, is completely asinine. If some people want to label their threads as commissions, that's good for them; I've done it on the couple of commissions I've shared here. But that is no reason to make it a hard and fast rule.

Besides, there are only a couple serious high end painters in the Showcase and it's pretty easy to figure out who they are. No need for hand-holding.