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2014/09/17 15:02:47
Subject: How did the Mierce/Wayland/Simple debacle end?
I've been meaning to find out what happened at the end of this story for a long time now.
Maelstrom miniatures was failing, and they were in a lot of debt (to Simple Games). They were paying token amounts to Simple Miniatures (although Simple claims that their credit was often declined, and by the end, it was always declined). The owner of Simple was able to keep his company afloat, but lost his savings, and couldn't invest the money in his own business.
The guys at Wayland noticed that Maelstrom was investing heavily into a new company (Mierce) while they weren't paying their debts (Simple was the largest chunk of debt but not the only one). They figured that Maelstrom was planning on turning belly up on their debts, and do a quick shell game to move everything profitable to Mierce (while keeping all of the debt with Maelstrom).
The owner of Mierce is the same as the owner of Maelstrom.
Wayland made a deal with Simple Miniatures to buy the outstanding debt from Maelstrom, then they called Maelstrom on it. This puts Maelstrom out of business. They can't pay a debt that they legally owe, it makes sense. But rather than handing their assets over to Wayland (in lieu of debt) they 'sold' their assets to Mierce.
Last I heard, Wayland was going to follow up on this, and it sounded like legal action was getting started. But that's the last I heard of it.
So- has anyone heard anything else about how this went down.
2014/09/17 15:38:31
Subject: How did the Mierce/Wayland/Simple debacle end?
Mierce are still going. People every now and then bring up the subject. The last time I remember reading something about it, the guy who owned maelstrom and owns mierce turned up to defend himself/insult people which kind of ended in a stalemate.
There was a lot of obstruction in the start over who owned mierce and what the involvement of maelstroms owner was.
A lot of it is scattered about in the mierce thread here on dakka. Not really kept up on developments though.
I heard (from a 'Wayland source') that the amount Maelstrom owed to the UK's biggest supplier (assume that must be Simple?) was massive, and if defaulted threatened to potentially sink the distribution of a wide variety of miniature lines that were coming into the UK. Wayland then stepped in to stop that happening.
I was told that Maelstrom had expanded too much, too fast, and then when expected income did not arrive during a dip in sales, were left in the lurch and with no way to pay their debts. This was then why Wayland themselves have expanded slowly, to learn from Maelstroms mistakes.
Most recently, someone posted on Dakka (I forget the thread) about the possibility of turning up at an event which Maelstrom were going to be at with 'the boys', to which the Mierce/Maelstrom person replied that they were welcome to try, and there would be 'boys' of their own there to greet them ( ! ), it was all very handbags at dawn but then I suppose that is fair enough when you have sometimes had large amounts of money involved.
I have never really managed to get my head around it, there seems to be a lot of ill feeling on either side and I would think there is almost certainly more to the story than we are privy to.
I vowed never to use either party again, Wayland or mierce but most of the stuff from Mierce is outstanding, I could not stay away, I just make sure not to order too much just in case.
I do quite often wonder what really went down
2014/09/17 19:23:27
Subject: Re:How did the Mierce/Wayland/Simple debacle end?
Pacific wrote: Most recently, someone posted on Dakka (I forget the thread) about the possibility of turning up at an event which Maelstrom were going to be at with 'the boys', to which the Mierce/Maelstrom person replied that they were welcome to try, and there would be 'boys' of their own there to greet them ( ! ), it was all very handbags at dawn but then I suppose that is fair enough when you have sometimes had large amounts of money involved.
Wasn't that Salute? I did have a quick gander at the Mierce stuff (nice as it is, they'll never have my money), and the stand seemed to be popular (understandably). I think the threat was that people were going to line their pockets with 'goods equivalent' to their losses. Might have happened.
Also, In the interest of fairness, I think Maelstrom refuted Wayland's claim about the size of the debt and that they wouldn't have been able to pay it back.
“Good people are quick to help others in need, without hesitation or requiring proof the need is genuine. The wicked will believe they are fighting for good, but when others are in need they’ll be reluctant to help, withholding compassion until they see proof of that need. And yet Evil is quick to condemn, vilify and attack. For Evil, proof isn’t needed to bring harm, only hatred and a belief in the cause.”
2014/09/17 19:31:04
Subject: How did the Mierce/Wayland/Simple debacle end?
I'm sure Maelstrom put out a statement saying they were paying back Simple at the agreed rate but Wayland wanted the whole lot at once which they'd never be able to manage, but had no problem maintaining the payments.
I imagine there's still ongoing legal/liquidation/litigation work at the moment as these things can take quite a while to play out.
2014/09/18 02:10:17
Subject: How did the Mierce/Wayland/Simple debacle end?
Herzlos wrote: I'm sure Maelstrom put out a statement saying they were paying back Simple at the agreed rate but Wayland wanted the whole lot at once which they'd never be able to manage, but had no problem maintaining the payments.
I imagine there's still ongoing legal/liquidation/litigation work at the moment as these things can take quite a while to play out.
I got to see that statement from Maelstom (that Simple was charging their credit card at their convenience). Simple said that the card would be refused regularly, and by the end, it was refused constantly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/18 02:12:20
2014/09/18 02:23:48
Subject: How did the Mierce/Wayland/Simple debacle end?
Mierce, and let's be clear, Mierce is a separate entity from Rob Lane, did fulfil, as far as I'm aware, most, if not all, of the outstanding orders Maelstrom had for Mierce product. That's what they said they would do, not on all Maelstrom orders.
As for a broader resolution? I've received info in private which paints Maelstrom/Rob in a very negative light, I've life experience which gives me a good deal of both sympathy and empathy for the situation he would have found himself in, and a degree of understanding for any 'poor' or 'dubious' decisions or actions he may have made.
Those who try and vilify Rob, or make out there's something unsavoury about Mierce however, don't really have any real basis in fact to do so, and it is likely just ill feeling borne out of lost money, which is a fair enough response, if not a logical one.
Sadly, companies go bust for reasons all the time, just this weekend the second largest phone retailer in the UK went into administration, potentially taking the deposit of anyone who had pre-ordered a new iPhone with it, but, unlike the situation here, they're part of a massive industry owned by a faceless consortium, so there isn't a convenient focal point for people's ire like their is with Mierce/Maelstrom.
From the horse's mouth.
Mierce Miniatures wrote: Rob Lane here. It's time to break the silence and give you a few facts.
First of all, if anybody *is* planning "something" at Salute, I suggest that person thinks about what they're doing carefully, and writes their words here carefully. As for lynching, you all know where we are - our address is carefully listed on our website and on our documents - feel free to come and do so whenever you like, you don't need a Salute to do it.
Secondly, I am the the director of Mierce Miniatures, just like I was the director of Maelstrom Games, which died because two other companies decided to make it die and not because I wanted to rip customers off. (By the way, notrop - Maelstrom didn't owe "over a million"; the Official Receiver got their sums wrong, and it is half that originally shown. I have the correct creditor's list if you or anybody else wants it, and of course so does the OR).
Thirdly, Mierce's first annual report shows a loss for one reason only: the bad debt incurred by giving money to Maelstrom Games (I'm not sure if the website you're mentioning shows this) to and Maunsfeld Gaming to pay staff in their death throes, which is roughly £40,000 (Admin expenses, last page), debt which can never be repaid. Yes, Mierce is a Maelstrom creditor - oh, the shock. I can provide our annual accounts (written by our chartered accountants) on request, if you do not believe me. Additionally, it should also be mentioned that many small businesses, in their first year of trading, make a loss. In other words, it's not unusual for that to occur, as I'm sure you all well know, having business knowledge. As for not having many "assets" (intangible and tangible), it must be remembered that these accounts cover 2012-2013, up to April, and in April 2013 we only had a couple of miniatures from the first Kickstarter in our possession (although we did show how much we owed the sculptors for them, "trade debtors", which creates an imbalance). Our assets are, of course, much greater now.
Fourthly, if any single one of you thinks that I personally have made money out of the death of Maelstrom, you'd be wrong and very ill-informed. I am personally £50,000 in debt, still, because of what happened - through credit cards and a personal loan - money that I pumped into Maelstrom in 2012 to try and stop the company going under. Again, I can provide evidence of this if you really want. Thankfully, despite this, I've managed to keep paying my mortgage, which no doubt annoys those of you that wanted me to lose my house (and thus put kids on the street). Unfortunately, two companies decided to put Maelstrom Games under and there was nothing I could do about that and nobody wanted to help - not banks, nobody. I sympathise with anybody that has lost money from what happened to Maelstrom Games, but don't think for one second that a) I wanted Maelstrom Games to die; why on earth would I? and b) I've absconded with any money; and c) that I've used money from Maelstrom to create a miniature manufacturer - because none of the above is the case, and the latter two is provable.
Fifthly, Mierce Miniatures purchased the original BaneLegions miniatures from Maelstrom Games legally and fairly, paying £10,000 more than the amount decided by an independent valuer to be a fair value for the assets at the time, the transaction for which has been inspected by the Official Receiver (a government body) and found to be fine. Apart from that, the only involvement Mierce had with Maelstrom Games was to provide it with miniatures to sell and, eventually, to fulfil Maelstrom Games orders for Mierce Miniatures products (that could not be fulfilled by Maelstrom). Effectively, Mierce gave miniatures to Maelstrom to fulfil those orders, over 200 orders if I recall correctly, and many thousands in value.
Sixthly, the Official Receiver - who oversees the death of companies that Insolvency Practitioners can't make money out of - has concluded their investigation and I have not been charged with any crime, nor have I had to do anything for the OR except attend one interview in April last year and explain what happened. This explanation can be found in official documents. I'm not being charged, I'm not being struck off as a director.
Finally, I don't expect any of the above will make any difference to some of you, and I've no doubt I'm just feeding the troll, or maybe just some internet warriors who simply take the word of someone (because it's dramatic or because everybody loves to have someone to hate) without trying to find out about what really happened, let alone to understand why it happened. But at some point - having read and listened to some very personal attacks over the past couple of years, some of which is frankly ridiculous, and from people who should know better - I have to say "enough is enough", and I've reached that point. I've stayed silent so that trolls aren't fed, but despite my own reservations about doing so, this is my response, for what it's worth.
None of you can hope to understand what myself, my family, and my staff and their families, have gone through in the past couple of years; and it's all because another company got impatient (we were paying their debt regularly, and at a far greater rate than any court would enforce; additionally, I offered that company as many BaneLegions as they could sell to further pay for that debt, for free, and they refused them) and another company got greedy (they refused to accept any kind of payment plan). If you think those other two companies are innocent, especially if you're "friends" of those companies, you're very wrong and totally ill-informed. If they hadn't done what they had done, Maelstrom would still be here (and in a different place, too. I still have the solicitor's documents that prove Maelstrom was moving into a warehouse, if anybody would like to see them).
Direct your ire at those two companies over Mierce, because Mierce had absolutely nothing to do with Maelstrom Games' demise, and this can be proven. Mierce would not exist if it were otherwise, the Official Receiver would ensure of that.
I ask that you don't abuse my staff at Salute; they simply work for me, and they work for me still because they know the truth about what happened.
If you wish to talk further in a calm and sensible manner, e-mail me. Otherwise, troll away.
I've also had, as I mentioned, information from the other side of the fence, which, needless to say, paints things in a different light, but that was communicated in private, and as I wasn't given permission to share, I won't. Either way, I suspect the truth of the matter (outside of independently verifiable facts) lies somewhere between the two views, as it so often does.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/18 02:27:56
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
That response from Mierce is pretty one-sided too, though. I doubt Simple Games feels anything similar, and they also put out a clear statement of their side when they sold the debt to Wayland, and it seemed they took a huge loss.
It's unfortunate on all sides but for Mierce to come out firing when they posted the quote above was pretty poor form, imo- a lot of other people were harmed as a result of this and they were Far from innocent in it (even if not legally/financially culpable).
2014/09/18 02:42:55
Subject: Re:How did the Mierce/Wayland/Simple debacle end?
I don't know if this had a factor in all this but didn't the Embargo that Games-Workshop slapped on all Indies that supplied the Southern Hemisphere affected Maelstrom more than other as it had a higher foreign customer base than others and it geared up and expanded for this supply.
Then the embargo came out of no-where and hit hard a lot of indies who relied on the S-H trade, Maelstrom one of the largest now due to such action found itself over-extended and it could not recover.
"Ultramarines are Wusses".... Chapter Master Achaylus Bonecrusher
2014/09/18 02:55:21
Subject: How did the Mierce/Wayland/Simple debacle end?
That's obviously a big factor. What gets my goat is that while RobLaneCo #2. fulfilled part of what RobLaneCo #1 owed to consumers, RobLaneCo #2 left it at that, rather then trying to make some kind of good by offering Mierce product to the people that RobLaneCo #1 knowingly ripped off so many people with a series of LAST-GASP-ENDLESS-LINE-OF-bs-WAREHOUSE-MOVING-SALE lies.
And now way too many people here are like "I like Mierces' sculpts so much that I'll pretend that it's all okay and hunky-dory. No history here, and I'll defend their business practices and morals while carrying Lane's water. It's fething mind-boggling.
Anyone have a summary of which companies are involved in which KS and possibly opinion of if the KS would be affected? I don't care about the blame game -- one guideline I use with KS is to avoid companies with business issues and litigation, regardless of whose fault it is. You can't always get this information, but if you can, make use of it!
Azazelx wrote: That's obviously a big factor. What gets my goat is that while RobLaneCo #2. fulfilled part of what RobLaneCo #1 owed to consumers, RobLaneCo #2 left it at that, rather then trying to make some kind of good by offering Mierce product to the people that RobLaneCo #1 knowingly ripped off so many people with a series of LAST-GASP-ENDLESS-LINE-OF-bs-WAREHOUSE-MOVING-SALE lies.
And now way too many people here are like "I like Mierces' sculpts so much that I'll pretend that it's all okay and hunky-dory. No history here, and I'll defend their business practices and morals while carrying Lane's water. It's fething mind-boggling.
Especially when so many are also against GW's poor business practices and won't buy their products because reasons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/18 04:07:52
2014/09/18 08:56:53
Subject: How did the Mierce/Wayland/Simple debacle end?
And now way too many people here are like "I like Mierces' sculpts so much that I'll pretend that it's all okay and hunky-dory. No history here, and I'll defend their business practices and morals while carrying Lane's water. It's fething mind-boggling.
Standing ovation, that one. Too many people's memories last only until a huckster dangles something new and shiny in front of their nose.
Azreal13 wrote: Mierce, and let's be clear, Mierce is a separate entity from Rob Lane, did fulfil, as far as I'm aware, most, if not all, of the outstanding orders Maelstrom had for Mierce product. That's what they said they would do, not on all Maelstrom orders.
As for a broader resolution? I've received info in private which paints Maelstrom/Rob in a very negative light, I've life experience which gives me a good deal of both sympathy and empathy for the situation he would have found himself in, and a degree of understanding for any 'poor' or 'dubious' decisions or actions he may have made.
Those who try and vilify Rob, or make out there's something unsavoury about Mierce however, don't really have any real basis in fact to do so, and it is likely just ill feeling borne out of lost money, which is a fair enough response, if not a logical one.
Sadly, companies go bust for reasons all the time, just this weekend the second largest phone retailer in the UK went into administration, potentially taking the deposit of anyone who had pre-ordered a new iPhone with it, but, unlike the situation here, they're part of a massive industry owned by a faceless consortium, so there isn't a convenient focal point for people's ire like their is with Mierce/Maelstrom.
Totally agree, I could only ever say good thing about mealstrom anyway, i never had any problems with them and they sorted me out on many occasions, always thought Rob was alight too, now im not sticking up for him, but it would be wise not to take the story from either side for granted.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/30 09:53:08
2014/09/18 10:29:14
Subject: How did the Mierce/Wayland/Simple debacle end?
Rayvon wrote: Mierce has nothing to do with rob anyway now from what i am aware, so no reason not to suck it up, despite what the folk say.
So they kept trumpetting, but he seems to still be very much in charge (being the Managing Director) with plenty of design involvement from what I can tell.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/18 10:29:53
2014/09/18 10:48:51
Subject: How did the Mierce/Wayland/Simple debacle end?
There just isn't clarity over what was going on at the end of Maelstrom. All these stories about warehouses and the sales and deals being offered through which people lost their money. It's still the same person running Mierce, is he a person of integrity? It doesn't make a huge difference, after all the complaints with people saying that Rob Lane and Mierce couldn't be trusted, they have plenty of customers.
2014/09/18 12:45:22
Subject: How did the Mierce/Wayland/Simple debacle end?
Howard A Treesong wrote: There just isn't clarity over what was going on at the end of Maelstrom. All these stories about warehouses and the sales and deals being offered through which people lost their money. It's still the same person running Mierce, is he a person of integrity? It doesn't make a huge difference, after all the complaints with people saying that Rob Lane and Mierce couldn't be trusted, they have plenty of customers.
IIRC, the primary issue was that Mierce was deliberately split off into a separate company a few months before Maelstrom crashed. Then Maelstrom crashed, and it turned out that ever since then Lane had been taking the money from fresh orders for newly advertised sales for stock he didn't have, and using it to fulfill old orders (and thus deliberately and knowingly defrauding the people placing new orders).
Then Mierce made a public statement as the crap hit the fan that Mierce had nothing to do with Lane anymore really, and was being run by other people. But then lo & behold, a few months later, and Mr Lane was running Mierce. Meaning he'd obviously shifted Mierce and its assets away just before Maelstrom crashed so that the assets couldn't be seized as repayment when Maelstrom went into administration.
The thing is, what he did was very ethically unsound. He was trying to secure enough orders to dig his way out of his financial hole, and to that end, started taking orders that he knew he could not fulfil. He also spun off his most valuable remaining assets into another company to shield them (and his financial future) from being collected as legitimate repayment for debts that he had willingly incurred. These actions are morally dubious to the extreme.
But at the same time, he has his own living to consider, his own employees to consider, and possibly his own family to consider. It's very easy to say, 'If I was in the same hole as him, I wouldn't do what he did to pull myself out', and it really, really sucks for all the customers who didn't get what they ordered and the people he owed money to. Mr Lane wasn't the first to choose to prioritise the wellbeing of him and his over doing the morally sound thing, and frankly, I doubt he'll be the last. Some of us would no doubt of done the same thing in his shoes.
The main annoying thing to many people though (including myself), is the constant deflection of blame and responsibility for his bad decisions (as seen in that letter above). No, it wasn't his business mismanagement. It was other companies conspiring to put him out of business. Taking orders without meaning to repay them? He has no idea what you're talking about. He did something bad? Whatever do you mean? What he did was totally legal.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/18 12:46:46
2014/09/18 16:32:20
Subject: Re:How did the Mierce/Wayland/Simple debacle end?
You know, Ketara- from your post, I can totally see how someone who thinks they're running legitimate business can accidentally run a Ponzi Scheme. I often wonder that about companies with overlapping Kickstarters.
I found a useful artifact when I was digging to find some news. Here is a pre-crash interview with Rob Lane where he openly discusses the fact that he is managing both Maelstrom and Mierce miniatures.
From the interview, he had several reasons for starting up Mierce that he felt he could say in a public venue:
Rob Lane: Mierce Miniatures the company is the end result of thoughts we had when Maelstrom Games first started to produce miniatures, but it has really been kick-started by the available space - there isn't enough, we're growing so fast - and the environmental conditions we've had to work in, which have been awful, frankly. Producing polyurethane resin miniatures has to be done in a well-ventilated space with an even temperature, and only by moving somewhere suitable could that happen, and we felt that having another property in the possession of Maelstrom Games simply wasn't the best way to go.
Additionally, having Mierce Miniatures separate from Maelstrom Games makes things a lot neater for myself as Managing Director of both companies and enables us to pursue funding for Mierce Miniatures as a creative new manufacturer, rather than part of an older retail company.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/18 16:40:00
2014/09/18 17:29:51
Subject: How did the Mierce/Wayland/Simple debacle end?
I've never run a company, but I can't see either of those reasons making a great deal of sense. Surely at that level of turnover, with a shared MD, it makes sense to keep it at a single company with a single set of acounts, etc?
2014/09/18 17:37:37
Subject: How did the Mierce/Wayland/Simple debacle end?
UK tax law and various related financial chicanery is so complex that there's seldom a one size fits all solution for the structure of any company.
Factor in different priorities and objectives, different financial realities (turnover, profitability, levels of debt or liquidity etc,etc) and even superficially similar companies can have very sound reasons for doing apparently the same thing in very different ways.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Or just not wanting to put all of your eggs in one basket.
Having the production arm being separate from a general distribution/retailing arm makes sense.
In a way, not doing so is one of the problems that GW is having - needing to support a brick and mortar chain of stores as part of a miniatures and rules production company.
The Auld Grump
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
2014/09/18 19:31:45
Subject: How did the Mierce/Wayland/Simple debacle end?
Ketara, I very much like and agree with your post above. I'm willing to give people second chances (I have bought from Mierce Miniatures, quite a few models actually!) but the shifting of blame really bothers me. It's quite clear that Maelstrom, and Rob Lane in particular, should bear a Large part of the blame for that entire debacle... but when you read his post (which Azrael copied above) about it, it sounds like he was totally innocent and only ever wronged by other malicious companies- one of whom took a huge loss from this whole incident.
Maelstrom Games Ltd. has ceased trading and will enter liquidation at some point over the next few months.
A creditor of Maelstrom Games Ltd., Wayland Games Ltd., issued a Statutory Demand under section 123(1)(a) or 221(1)(a) of the Insolvency Act, 1986 on the 17th of October, 2012 for £ 99,773.61 plus costs of issuing and serving the demand.
This debt was purchased from Simple Miniature Games by Wayland Games Ltd on the 1st of October, 2012 and payment of this debt was demanded in full by Wayland Games after seven days had elapsed. Unfortunately, Maelstrom Games Ltd. could not pay Wayland Games Ltd. this debt in full within those seven days.
Previous to the debt purchase, Maelstrom Games Ltd. was servicing the debt owed to Simple Miniature Games at the rate of £ 500 per working day, claimed by the creditor when convenient for him by charging a credit card owned by Maelstrom Games Ltd., which had been occurring since mid-June and continued to late September, the last payment being taken on the 25th. Maelstrom Games Ltd. did not cancel these payments and were not aware that this debt was being transferred.
Maelstrom Games Ltd. offered to pay the debt purchased by Wayland Games Ltd. in the same manner as it had paid Simple Miniature Games, but this was not taken up by Wayland Games Ltd.
Maelstrom Games Ltd. can only apologise to those customers whose orders have not been fulfilled as it is now impossible for Maelstrom Games Ltd. to fulfil them, excepting those for Mierce Miniatures products (fulfilled by Mierce Miniatures in November) and Battlefront Miniatures products (fulfilled by Maelstrom Games in partnership with Battlefront Miniatures and Maunsfeld Gaming in November), all of which will be sent by Maelstrom Games Ltd. Other customer orders for certain ranges may be fulfilled in the future and any customers whose orders can be fulfilled will be contacted by Maelstrom Games in due course.
All creditors will be issued the relevant notices by the assigned Insolvency Practitioner when Maelstrom Games Ltd. enters liquidation.
Wayland Games official statement:
Spoiler:
All in the Gaming Community,
As news of our action regarding Maelstrom Games is public we would like to take a moment to explain the steps we have taken, and why.
Some time ago we became aware of discussions at various events where there was a constant chatter about the financial situation that Maelstrom Games found itself in and the significant debts it suffered from. We ignored them to begin with but it seemed that in the events scene in the UK it was being discussed openly. We noticed that tickets were being sold a year in advance for some events. We then see hundreds of thousands of pounds being pushed into a miniatures line whilst Maelstrom Games still owed significant monies to suppliers. Suppliers we (and countless other retailers) share and rely upon for the timely distribution of product to fulfil our customer orders.
This industry is in our opinion, too small and too close for such a situation to occur, as the wider implications would mean hundreds of people - customers - you - potentially losing the money you had paid out for product and event tickets.
It was clear that Maelstrom Games Limited were in significant trouble, yet they continued to invest in other areas despite still owing very significant and growing amounts to suppliers causing a great deal of pressure on the supply chain.
In early May we decided to offer to buy Maelstrom Games, including honouring all liabilities for the business. Our email was ignored. In late May a follow up email was sent and again that was ignored.
We therefore looked to protect our customers by looking to protect the supply chain and also ourselves (as well as any of the other independent retailers who rely on this same supply chain) from the collapse of a major retailer, and managed to purchase the main debt that Maelstrom owe, in an attempt to force a resolution, rather than allow an uncontrolled collapse and all the knock on effects that would unleash on the industry.
The situation is complicated and there is quite a process to move through, but we are undertaking this action with the best of intentions for our customers, customers of Maelstrom Games and our supply chain, and will endeavor to keep all affected notified of developments as they occur. We will be issuing information Via our Facebook Page: http://www.facebook.com/WaylandGamesLtd And by email, subscribe here: http://eepurl.com/p-Wg1
And finally, Simple Miniatures official statement describing the loss they took. This is in my opinion the most interesting one, but also for some reason the least posted online (I also don't see it on their website any longer):
Statement Regarding Maelstrom Games Ltd
On the 1st October we made the difficult decision to assign the debt owed to Simple Miniature Games to Wayland Games Ltd for a nominal fee.
This debt at the point sold stood at just under £100,000 and has been outstanding at that level and higher for over 12 months. This debt built up during a short space of time during the busiest period in our 10 year history just after significant amounts had been paid for other invoices. Promises were made to clear a large portion of the debt within a short space of time but that payment never materialised. A repayment plan was then agreed which should have seen the debt reduced significantly beyond the point that it actually has been. Unfortunately many of these payments were consistently declined and at the last the payments were continually declined.
It was around this point in conjunction with our reading into the accounts of Maelstrom Games that we contacted debt recovery and debt purchase specialists in order to take further action and begin the recovery of assets to cover some the debt.
Demands for the reimbursement of the failed payments and for payment of stock supplied on the 12th September for Maelstrom Games customer orders were completely ignored. As such on October 1st 2012 the debt was sold to the company which offered the best solution, not immediately for us, but for what I considered the best long term solution for our industry in the UK. We chose Wayland Games as they have a vested interest in the hobby and industry and will offer better protection to potential customers, suppliers and manufacturers, other companies would not.
We have continued to trade as normal during the entire period of this debt and continue to order from our suppliers and pay them on time. Maelstrom Games are only one customer out of several dozen and our whole customer base is far, far greater than any one company.
You should understand that Simple Miniature Games have supported Maelstrom through the last year even though we knew they were struggling but with our support they would continue to trade. However there are only so many broken promises that you can listen to and it became perfectly clear that assets of Maelstrom Games were being moved to other companies that had been funded by monies which should have been paid to suppliers including ourselves. There was no way Maelstrom Games could pay the debt and it would appear that steps were being taken to avoid the debts and protect other assets.
This debt has not adversely affected Simple Miniature Games as a company as we can afford to continue to trade with this debt outstanding due to the reliability of our customer base and strong product lines. It has however affected myself and my wife personally as the reserves we have built over 10 years of hard work have had to cover the debt. It was always our intention to use around half of this profit to expand our warehouse and bring in another two or three new ranges including manufacturing our own. However this will now have to wait whilst we consolidate and build up the reserves for our future once again.
Now, I know Simple Miniatures seems to have acted in an unwise manner loaning Maelstrom so much money, and allowing them to continue to not reduce the debt for such a long period... but, by the same token there's just no way Maelstrom (and Rob Lane) can get a pass on it. This is something I keep in mind when dealing with them, but because their miniatures have been popular, there has been a steady stream of funds going into the company and making it do well. Like any company, though, if the "music were to stop", it would likely be ugly. So again, it's just something I keep in mind... I am willing to give them a second chance, but I certainly don't think they were innocent in the Maelstrom incident by any stretch.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2014/09/18 19:44:14
2014/09/18 19:32:53
Subject: How did the Mierce/Wayland/Simple debacle end?
odinsgrandson wrote: I've been meaning to find out what happened at the end of this story for a long time now.
Maelstrom miniatures was failing, and they were in a lot of debt (to Simple Games). They were paying token amounts to Simple Miniatures (although Simple claims that their credit was often declined, and by the end, it was always declined). The owner of Simple was able to keep his company afloat, but lost his savings, and couldn't invest the money in his own business.
The guys at Wayland noticed that Maelstrom was investing heavily into a new company (Mierce) while they weren't paying their debts (Simple was the largest chunk of debt but not the only one). They figured that Maelstrom was planning on turning belly up on their debts, and do a quick shell game to move everything profitable to Mierce (while keeping all of the debt with Maelstrom).
The owner of Mierce is the same as the owner of Maelstrom.
Wayland made a deal with Simple Miniatures to buy the outstanding debt from Maelstrom, then they called Maelstrom on it. This puts Maelstrom out of business. They can't pay a debt that they legally owe, it makes sense. But rather than handing their assets over to Wayland (in lieu of debt) they 'sold' their assets to Mierce.
Last I heard, Wayland was going to follow up on this, and it sounded like legal action was getting started. But that's the last I heard of it.
So- has anyone heard anything else about how this went down.
in US Bankruptcy law typically a judge can claw back assets from transactions wherein assets were disposed to another entity. Favorable treatment of that disposal in a non arm's length transaction typically will get hammered. Alternatively entiies of the same enterprise can get pulled in, even if nonrecourse to each other, if there were shenanigans.
Was this a UK situation? I'm sure they have similar provisions. Of course, pitchforks, torches, and Bofors machine guns are far more satisfying.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/18 19:43:18
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2014/09/18 19:50:27
Subject: How did the Mierce/Wayland/Simple debacle end?
Azazelx wrote: That's obviously a big factor. What gets my goat is that while RobLaneCo #2. fulfilled part of what RobLaneCo #1 owed to consumers, RobLaneCo #2 left it at that, rather then trying to make some kind of good by offering Mierce product to the people that RobLaneCo #1 knowingly ripped off so many people with a series of LAST-GASP-ENDLESS-LINE-OF-bs-WAREHOUSE-MOVING-SALE lies.
And now way too many people here are like "I like Mierces' sculpts so much that I'll pretend that it's all okay and hunky-dory. No history here, and I'll defend their business practices and morals while carrying Lane's water. It's fething mind-boggling.
very true, and even more mind-boggling that some of the same people defending Mierce are the ones who will vilify CMON, even after ten years of above board behavior and fulfilled orders...
i don't own a single Mierce mini, and don't know if i ever will, as beautiful as they are...
maybe a few years down the road, when Mierce shows that they are above board, but for now, no way...
cheers
jah
Paint like ya got a pair!
Available for commissions.
2014/09/18 20:12:01
Subject: How did the Mierce/Wayland/Simple debacle end?
Where are the vampires? This screams lawsuits for enforcement all over it.
But again, A Sopwith Camel strafing their headquarters with water ballon full of wiener dog pee would be eminently more satisfying.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2014/09/18 20:56:22
Subject: How did the Mierce/Wayland/Simple debacle end?
i don't own a single Mierce mini, and don't know if i ever will, as beautiful as they are...
maybe a few years down the road, when Mierce shows that they are above board, but for now, no way...
I can definitely see that attitude. I love a lot of minis from their range as well, and as a person who loves great minis, would like to see them operate in an entirely above the board manner and continue to produce cool monsters.
I even got to take a look at their new game at Gencon (the great guys from The War Store were demoing it). It plays a little like WarGods of Aegyptus with a little more on the fly tactical decision making and a smaller scale (single models rather than blocks).
I'm sad that I can't feel like their business practices are as cool as their minis.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/18 20:58:05
2014/09/18 22:37:21
Subject: How did the Mierce/Wayland/Simple debacle end?
it isn't even so much about waiting to see how the business practices will change in the coming years, which is important, but it is also how "Mierce Miniatures" when updating his own thread here in N&R feels the need to slag off other games and miniature lines...
it's just not the sign of a class act that he would take a game which the community has dubbed WarmaHordes for convenience, and change that name to Hormachine, and talk bad about them...
it is one thing for the customers and jaded fans to slag off GW, i get that, even if i don't agree...
for the owner of a competing miniature company to talk trash about well established, well run, non-scamming game companies just shows what kind of person he is...
you mentioned Wargods, and i have to say that Fitz is a guy that will get my money every time...
he is a class act, with honesty and integrity...
he has had his share of struggles, and just keeps his nose down, grinding away to make sure that his company produces quality minis...
given a choice between buying a Mierce mini, or a Croc mini, the choice goes to Croc easily, simply because i think Croc deserves the support...
plus, more money to Croc means more concept work for Des Hanley, too...
speaking of which, i am happy that Mierce's Kickstarters are doing well, because that means more work for their concept artists, some of whom are friends of mine...
i don't wish to see the company fail, i just wish that the owner didn't have such a bad attitude, and the horrible albatross of Maelstrom around his neck...
cheers
jah
Paint like ya got a pair!
Available for commissions.
2014/09/19 03:14:46
Subject: How did the Mierce/Wayland/Simple debacle end?
I have backed every Mierce kickstarter and have something like $4000 worth of the best miniatures on the planet. After roughly 20 orders, I've had three problems (missing part, broken part, missing a model but doubles of the other), they've all been replaced immediately and replacements received within a week (overseas to boot). Got my Darklands rulebooks last week in the mail, which closes up fulfillment of one of their Kickstarters.
Maelstrom may have been run poorly; Mierce is one of the best companies I've ever had the pleasure of doing business with. They have provided an outlet for the best sculptors in the world to make the most detailed miniatures and deliver the highest quality resin casts I've ever seen.
They have the best run Kickstarters I've ever been involved with, with weekly updates showing every sculpt's WIP and estimated times of arrival. They are very active and communicative and super transparent.
And I'm very happy to see they recently got Aragorn Marks back from GW.
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
