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My regular gaming opponents always have something to say a Tau, generally of the negative fashion. But generally it comes down too, we have too many special rules. We always have a way to counter anything they our opponents bring. Supporting fire is just over the top, and same same with ignores cover. So many weapons have twin-linked and virtually anything can ignore cover. Oh and the big one lol we can buy any special rule for cheap. Is it really that bad, I don't see the problem with it? But I am probably blinded by like bias for Tau. Every needs to have access to things like skyfire and that it's only fair.

I don't think too many units/rules is a complaint anyone can reasonably make, and if it's going to be levelled at anyone, it's probably not Tau alone. That said, just about every Tau unit has, or is built around, some sort of special rule (or operating in conjunction with something else's special rules), with a lot of stuff built around not following the normal rules or ignoring/negating something.

Some people see it as tactical depth, others see it as very "gimmicky". I'd say there's probably some truth in both statements.

However, "gimmicks" aren't unique to Tau by any means.

IXLoiero95XI wrote:I don't see the problem with it? But I am probably blinded by like bias for Tau.

Yup.

Also, an army that exists primarily to ignore vast swaths of the game isn't going to be one that has too many rules. "You ignore this rule" the rule isn't really much of a rule to remember.

The Tau can ignore armies, but how many people tailor their lists to their opponent? If you take an all comers list, then you have to cover everything from Orks to SM to IK. People just complain because they can.

SGTPozy wrote:
If you take an all comers list, then you have to cover everything from Orks to SM to IK

And you cover it with the exact same models

I think it's the fact that they are low risk/high reward army. They are far less punishing to play than they used to be, CC got nerfed heavily since 6th, so adding supporting fire on top of that, is just over the top.

Furthermore, it's just generally frustrating to play vs Tau, when you're trying to counter play them.

Deep Strike/Drop pods? Nope.
CC? As if.
Hide behind cover? Nah.
Outgun them? Good luck.
Run heavy flier lists? Selective skyfire with intercepter, so nope.

Oh, and to top it off; Whoever thought that changing Markerlights from 2 markerlights = -2 cover to 2 markerlights = all cover gone, deserves a big punch in the face!

Lets cover Zewrath's complaints.


DS/drop pods-you are complaining I can "hit first" against a mechanic that to begin with is a "hit first, you cant do anything about it" in its nature. interceptor is literally only hurting people who try the same trick of "I shoot first and you can't stop me"
You are literally being hit by the same bulls rule mockery you are trying to pull here.

CC-bulls. its just that people don't undertand HOW to CC tau. you dont need a superkiller that can stop anything, you need a tactical marine. you don't need great, good or even decent CC unit, just something not as much as a failure as a tau in it.

Hide behind cover-yea, it works, markerlights are of limited supply. most 1850 turnie lists can only mark a single unit per turn. and every mark spend on cover ignoring, is a makr not spent on actually hitting stuff.

Outgun-well, naturally if you can outgun a codex that has nothing BUT guns, than the entire codex is pointless. though IG (as your pic suggest you are) and the new renegades can defiantly compete. so can "dakka-orks" lists

Skyfire with interceptor-only riptides or HQs can even in theory get it. its expensive, it blocks out other important upgrades and the usual platform isn't even good at AA fire (riptide) with mere BS3 shooting 3 S7AP2 shots, or 8 S6AP4 they are not even a genuine threat. the one that is, is the ECPA riptide from the enclaves with his likely 12 S6AP4 rending shots, but he is using a one-of relic, expensive as hell, and giving away the FnP upgrade he needs as he turned himself into the prime target of most lists.


I'll agree that the "2 markers to ignore cover" over "1 mark, -1 cover" change was a mistake though.

Yes they have to many rules and exceptions. But like you say, they are one of many offenders.

Space Marines and their variant chapters are the worst offenders since they are pretty much exempt from every core rule in the game. "This tank ignores difficult terrain." "These guys only scatter 1d6 or don't scatter at all." "This rule basically ignores morale." "This chapter re-rolls to wound with flamers." "This rule let's me pick psychic disciplines." "These bikers are T5 / 3+, and ignore all terrain, and have hit-and-run."

Tau are packed with nonsense like "oh this weapon doesn't need line of sight, and it automatically hits, and it ignores cover." Try to charge them and it's "we have super-defensive grenades that also cause blind." "All my units have split-fire, so I don't need to worry about target selection." "All my fire warriors can shoot 3 shots at 30" range with their S5 Ap5 rifles, and I don't even have to take a ld test or anything." "My heavy infantry units can move 2d6 inches in the assault phase, allowing them to move and fire and retreat, all at long range, while you can't even strike back. Try to assault them and I'll just jet pack them away."

Basically the question is: can you play the game without your codex open? And I just hate that feeling every time I say "ok, I'm going to do [x]" and my opponent says "well, my guys have [y] so you can't do [x]."

Honestly, Tau would be fine if so many of their abilities weren't about getting rid of their established weaknesses, fragility and cc.

Supporting Fire, stupid ablative wound drones everywhere, the ability to grant stubborn/fearless...

When I started, I saw tau as a cool concept, where the Tau units were incredibly powerful but had clear, definite weaknesses that they had to cover up with the other races' auxiliaries. Fire warriors and crisis suits and hammerheads threw out withering amounts of firepower but unless the tau player screened with Kroot almost as a points tax you could demolish them in close combat. It reminded me of the speed/durability trade off I had with my orks between speed freaks and green tide and the old mob rule.

But GW doesn't like meaningful, unique trade offs so both are now gone, and now Orks just take the Fearless Stick and Tau get to field just the strongest (most expensive) models.

I was surprised by some of the Tau abilities, and I daresay they worked wonders against my Wave Serpents.


But honestly, if we're talking rules shenanigans, they're nowhere close to what Necrons or IoM bring.

I find that they've got some badass options, but I haven't seen cheesey options, like T1 Deep Strike or drop pods or Death Rays.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zewrath wrote:
Oh, and to top it off; Whoever thought that changing Markerlights from 2 markerlights = -2 cover to 2 markerlights = all cover gone, deserves a big punch in the face!

See, even I can agree with you sometimes.

A lot of the complaints for Tau stem from 6th edition where thanks to being Battle Brothers with Eldar and the Buffmander with Riptide Shinanigans people cried OP. Despite taking a pretty big nerf with 7th edition people will complain about them still because they are easy to complain about, like the Riptide, still don't get why people complain about a model that hurts itself 1/3 of the time and is not nearly as invincible as people make it.

 TheSilo wrote:


Tau are packed with nonsense like "oh this weapon doesn't need line of sight, and it automatically hits, and it ignores cover." Try to charge them and it's "we have super-defensive grenades that also cause blind." "All my units have split-fire, so I don't need to worry about target selection." "All my fire warriors can shoot 3 shots at 30" range with their S5 Ap5 rifles, and I don't even have to take a ld test or anything." "My heavy infantry units can move 2d6 inches in the assault phase, allowing them to move and fire and retreat, all at long range, while you can't even strike back. Try to assault them and I'll just jet pack them away."

Only weapon that needs no LoS is the SMS and the one-of-a-kind AFP (that nobody take as its overpriced), even SM have more guns that need no LoS.

Automatic hit-does not exist.

Ignore cover-naturally only SMS, but yes, that one of tau's strong point to get cover ignoring shots. still requires a sucsessful mark beforehand.

"Super defensive grenades"? ALL defensive grenades cause blind. for EVERYONE that has such grenades. tau are far from unique here. also, range 8" and blast, so it only can be thrown if you are within 8" of out troops on our turn, from some reason.

3 shots at 30"? when did you see that happening? because its only possible if you got 2 fireblades attached to the squad, and not moving (2 hq choices, and not even good ones at that)
And who needs to test LD to shoot their guns? seriusly?

"All units got split fire", yea, if you pay 5 points for each individual model, and its suit only, and it blocks any other upgrade. and its on suits only, units who come in teams of max 3 anyway, so little gain here.

JSJ-not the only army that can, most guns are close range.

as always, tau hate full of simply WRONG statements.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:


Tau are packed with nonsense like "oh this weapon doesn't need line of sight, and it automatically hits, and it ignores cover." Try to charge them and it's "we have super-defensive grenades that also cause blind." "All my units have split-fire, so I don't need to worry about target selection." "All my fire warriors can shoot 3 shots at 30" range with their S5 Ap5 rifles, and I don't even have to take a ld test or anything." "My heavy infantry units can move 2d6 inches in the assault phase, allowing them to move and fire and retreat, all at long range, while you can't even strike back. Try to assault them and I'll just jet pack them away."

Only weapon that needs no LoS is the SMS and the one-of-a-kind AFP (that nobody take as its overpriced), even SM have more guns that need no LoS.

Automatic hit-does not exist.

Ignore cover-naturally only SMS, but yes, that one of tau's strong point to get cover ignoring shots. still requires a sucsessful mark beforehand.

"Super defensive grenades"? ALL defensive grenades cause blind. for EVERYONE that has such grenades. tau are far from unique here. also, range 8" and blast, so it only can be thrown if you are within 8" of out troops on our turn, from some reason.

3 shots at 30"? when did you see that happening? because its only possible if you got 2 fireblades attached to the squad, and not moving (2 hq choices, and not even good ones at that)
And who needs to test LD to shoot their guns? seriusly?

"All units got split fire", yea, if you pay 5 points for each individual model, and its suit only, and it blocks any other upgrade. and its on suits only, units who come in teams of max 3 anyway, so little gain here.

JSJ-not the only army that can, most guns are close range.

as always, tau hate full of simply WRONG statements.

You mean those suits don't get blacksun filters and JSJ and split fire and ignore cover?

If automatic hit doesn't exist, then literally every Tau player I've played against for the past six months has been cheating. They insist that their no-LOS, ignore cover missiles auto-hit anything with a marker light on it.

IG have to take a LD test for FRF, using their 60 point command squad to buff their 24" S3 Ap- shots. For the same points, Tau always get an extra shot on their 30" S5 Ap5 shots. Ethereal can buff for another shot.

The other armies with JSJ include the incredibly well balanced Eldar. So that's not really a count for your side of the argument.

Etheral buff only goes at half range (so 3 shots at 15", not at 30").

And yes, if the Tau players you've been playing with said 'auto-hit' missiles by expending markerlights, they were wrong. SMS ignores cover and vision, but not BS rolls. Same with Seeker Missiles shot by using markerlights.

Blacksun filters are hardly noteworthy
JSJ-not the only unit and not the only codex. eldar and Deldar has the SAME rule for their jetbikes, but with more extras, yet nobody cries about that. people say alot about eldar, but apperantly the jetbikes are ok.
Split fire costs points and a hardpoint (meaning its a conflicting upgrade, blocks you out of other stuff), also on a 1-3 model team, is hardly relevant.
Ignore cover-only when you got markerlights available, its like saying fire dragons ignores cover because farseer exists. if you don't count the costs and limits of the support unit, you are just making stuff up.


The no-los ignore cover missile can be one of two things:
SMS-its a gun, not auto hitting.
Seeker missile-still needs to hit on a BS5, a single use item, and each missile requires a markerlight hit to be consumed.
Yes, many tau players cheat, because kid bandwagoners got zero clue how the tau rules actually work, and they do insane things like not actually consuming markerlights on use, auto-hitting seekers, etc.
That's why half the things people complain about that are OP in tau are hardly ever getting played competitively if at all, because these are just being played wrong and giving a bad name as OP to actually unimpressive things.


Ok, IG orders are a specific case, of ANOTHER unit granting the unit a special rule, and needed an LD check to do so, also works from ra distance.
The fireblade only works for the unit he is attached to, only if they are not moving at all (a single moving model-no buff) and adds a SINGLE shot. (so its not "triple shot at 30" as you presented) also he can't give a plate of others rules of choice, but limited to just that one.
So one needs a LD check, the other needs to sit perfectly still within a squad that is sitting perfectly still. honestly I'd prefer taking an LD check.
And yes, there are other cases of LD checks to apply rules, like half the SoB book. not a great example as its a general fit-causer of how dumb it is.

Markerlights are basically an order from AM, just used differently.

Orders:
Require a Ld test and can choose one of many orders, which cover many different needs that the player may have.
Vox casters can be taken to re-roll the Ld test.
The unit issuing the orders can be as cheap as 30pts (PCS).
The unit giving the order can still shoot their guns, run or charge.
Is a Troop/HQ choice.
Can move and issue an order with no drawbacks.
Targets the ally.

Markerlights:
Require to hit rolls of a 4+.
Can do one of three things for a token.
The base cost of a unit is 44pts.
Is a FA choice.
Cannot shoot, run, charge after.
If the unit moves, the unit must snapshot.
Must target the enemy.

Do people call orders nooby or that they give too many rules? No, even though they can be used alongside psykers, so FRF,SRF with Presience > ignores cover.

Not having an IG book right now, so can you do me a favor and post the freaking SHOPPING LIST of orders you can choose from?
Because with orders alone, they ignore more rules than all tau combined IIRC, and even tau's signature "ignore all cover" is nearly matched with their great selection of barrage weapons.

Yet, they are humans. so its ok.

AM Orders:

"Take Aim!"
- Precision shots
"Smite at Will"
- Split fire
FRFSRF
"Forwards, for the Emperor!"
- Shoot then run
"Move!Move!Move!"
- 3d6 dice to run, use the highest
"Suppressive Fire!"
- Pinning

SO only:
"Bring it Down!"
- Monster hunter and tank hunter
"Fire on my Target!"
- Ignores cover
"Get Back in the Fight!"
- A unit gets back up

Tau:
+1 BS
Ignores cover (2 tokens)
Fire a seeker missile



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gotta love how guardsmen can do everything that Tau can do (prescience to reroll whilst Tau just hit better, both get ignores cover) yet get no hate just because they are IoM, just like Boomwolf said.
IoM armies are way too OP!

I've found that a common complaint is when an opponent looks at my list, he complains that he can't tell at a glance what role each unit is expected to play.

"is that an anti-infantry unit or is it anti-tank".

My usual response is my list is all-comers so i try to do a little of everything with each unit.

I think a lot of the hate and cries of "OP" and "Cheese" come from players who can't think out of the box or deal with units that can do more than one thing.

In 6th edition, no. In 7th edition, yes.

Don't worry, their next codex will have almost no rules in it by unit, their guns will have no special rules, and they'll have maybe 6 pieces of gear with unique rules. This is how 7th edition codexes look now.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Let me cover Zewrath's claims with ignorant biased strawman claims

There, fixed that one for you.

DS/drop pods-you are complaining I can "hit first" against a mechanic that to begin with is a "hit first, you cant do anything about it" in its nature. interceptor is literally only hurting people who try the same trick of "I shoot first and you can't stop me"
You are literally being hit by the same bulls rule mockery you are trying to pull here.

No, I am complaining that I have to shell out 365 points (!!) for a single pod of Sternguard, in order to PERHAPS kill a single Riptide with FnP. That's best case scenario. No scatter, nothing that died to intercept and every single plasmagun in Rapid Fire range. That's 4,937 wounds. This is not taking into account if I go second and the Riptide prepares for the DP Sterns with Nova charged shield, granting him 3++ and will thus reduce the wounds to 2,469 wounds. Said unit will be doomed afterwards to footslog and will most likely just be wiped out the following turns.
One could argue that you could just drown the Tau player in pods instead, but with what? Tacticals? 2 special weapons (1 of which is single use) is nothing to write home about and won't be a threat to the Riptide (or even the Broadsides for that matter, if they are deployed right). So chances are that you will be facing a maximum of 5 pods, 3 on turn 1 and only 1 of them needs to be cleared and the rest can effectively be ignored, since Tactical Squad are worth gak.

CC-bulls. its just that people don't undertand HOW to CC tau. you dont need a superkiller that can stop anything, you need a tactical marine. you don't need great, good or even decent CC unit, just something not as much as a failure as a tau in it.

It's not rocket science to CC Tau, it's how you reach them. I can see why you use the Marine as an example, because the fact is that the vast majority of the other armies (specially dedicated CC units) won't have a save versus your S5 AP4 en masse shots.
Furthermore, the vast majority of SM armies, barring Bikes, aren't interested in closing in on Tau, because most real Tau armies don't sit around with Fire Warriors that are waiting to get assaulted, they are filled with Suits and Tides and minor vehicles that has a plasma AP 2 death and JSJ.

Hide behind cover-yea, it works, markerlights are of limited supply. most 1850 turnie lists can only mark a single unit per turn. and every mark spend on cover ignoring, is a makr not spent on actually hitting stuff.

Except that increases anything with 2+BS is usually enough, so isn't problematic at all to obtain ignore cover on top of that, assuming 4-5 marker light hits.

Everyone complains about Eldar jetbikes, the idea that they get a pass is absurd. Dark Eldar get off because their bikers have 5+ armor (not 3+ like Craftworlders).

Markerlights can be used by everyone in the army, including suits and vehicles. Orders only apply to infantry within 12". Half the units worth casting orders on (heavy weapons teams, special weapons teams) can't take voxes and cast on ld7.

I'll have to challenge those players on their shenanigans with the auto hit missiles.

So, you want to one-shot a unit that costs over 200 points for something that is under 400 points without any chance to defend against it?
Because that's what you are saying.

If you want to destroy something, anything, in a single turn without the ability to defend against it makes SENSE you need to invest far more than what that unit has costed to begin with!

As for "if he had time to prepare and get 3++", he could also fail, and hurt himself (1/3 of the time), and if he has the 3++, and does not carry the IA (a weapon choice that was covered in every single tau cry threat as the main problem by the tau players themselves) it means he has about the same damage output as a dev team with heavy bolters. (and not an IF one)

How are tactical pods no threat to a broadside baffles me considering a melta will ID a broadside, as for not being a threat to a riptide, do we really need to have for the SEVENTH time the mathematical proof that without the ion accelerator, the riptide is either very fragile due to absurd rate of self-inflicted damage, or non-threatening due to unimpressive HBC profile when non-novaed. once again we drop to the fact the problem is with the IA, not anything else in the riptide, who is otherwise strong yet fair.

Also, the obsession to use pods, who are the EPITOM of "I ignore all deployment rules, and I am assured to shoot first and blow the crap out of your army without giving you any chance to do anything about it" is amusing. you are literally using the most deployment-braking mechanic in the game (DS rules broken, no units on board=loss rule broken, DS units are clamped rule broken, deployment in your own zone broken, etc. pods basically means "I deploy however I want, deploy second and will shoot first regardless who plays first") its the one thing in the game designed not to give the other player any opportunity to play against it, at all.


I don't know where "S5AP4 en mass" shots come from, that's heavy bolter profile, tau has no such gun profile, at all.
And if you meant S5AP5 are getting no saves, than you are probably using something dirt cheap, aren't you? masses of bullets met with equal masses of bodies.
If you are an expensive assault unit that can't even take S5AP5 fire, you got more problems than tau.

Not that I'm sure where these "masses of S5AP5" even come from when fire warriors are not taken, and the entire list are AP2 carrying suit. shrodinger's tau much?


"Assuming 4-5 marker hits" is a great assumption considering you got dedicated marker source that can even generate that much to buff just a single unit, markers that had to stand still (or cost a fortune for controlled drones), in LoS to the target, in range, and somehow not get killed despite being paper.
You might as well assume there is a psyker giving a buff to every unit you want to shoot with when playing IG, or eldar, or anyone else with divination.
How is it ANY different form IG orders, divination psykers, or any other of the dozens of cover-ignoring sources of fire in the game that are available to nearly every army?

 BoomWolf wrote:
So, you want to one-shot a unit that costs over 200 points for something that is under 400 points without any chance to defend against it?
Because that's what you are saying.

If you want to destroy something, anything, in a single turn without the ability to defend against it makes SENSE you need to invest far more than what that unit has costed to begin with!

As for "if he had time to prepare and get 3++", he could also fail, and hurt himself (1/3 of the time), and if he has the 3++, and does not carry the IA (a weapon choice that was covered in every single tau cry threat as the main problem by the tau players themselves) it means he has about the same damage output as a dev team with heavy bolters. (and not an IF one)

How are tactical pods no threat to a broadside baffles me considering a melta will ID a broadside, as for not being a threat to a riptide, do we really need to have for the SEVENTH time the mathematical proof that without the ion accelerator, the riptide is either very fragile due to absurd rate of self-inflicted damage, or non-threatening due to unimpressive HBC profile when non-novaed. once again we drop to the fact the problem is with the IA, not anything else in the riptide, who is otherwise strong yet fair.

Also, the obsession to use pods, who are the EPITOM of "I ignore all deployment rules, and I am assured to shoot first and blow the crap out of your army without giving you any chance to do anything about it" is amusing. you are literally using the most deployment-braking mechanic in the game (DS rules broken, no units on board=loss rule broken, DS units are clamped rule broken, deployment in your own zone broken, etc. pods basically means "I deploy however I want, deploy second and will shoot first regardless who plays first") its the one thing in the game designed not to give the other player any opportunity to play against it, at all.


I don't know where "S5AP4 en mass" shots come from, that's heavy bolter profile, tau has no such gun profile, at all.
And if you meant S5AP5 are getting no saves, than you are probably using something dirt cheap, aren't you? masses of bullets met with equal masses of bodies.
If you are an expensive assault unit that can't even take S5AP5 fire, you got more problems than tau.

Not that I'm sure where these "masses of S5AP5" even come from when fire warriors are not taken, and the entire list are AP2 carrying suit. shrodinger's tau much?


"Assuming 4-5 marker hits" is a great assumption considering you got dedicated marker source that can even generate that much to buff just a single unit, markers that had to stand still (or cost a fortune for controlled drones), in LoS to the target, in range, and somehow not get killed despite being paper.
You might as well assume there is a psyker giving a buff to every unit you want to shoot with when playing IG, or eldar, or anyone else with divination.
How is it ANY different form IG orders, divination psykers, or any other of the dozens of cover-ignoring sources of fire in the game that are available to nearly every army?

Yes, but you're denying the investment of 350+ with piss poor ease and that strips option of countering Tau.

Dunno how you're deploying, but it's piss easy to counter deploy mass drop podding, just because it annoys you to do so, doesn't mean that it isn't.

I don't care about the Riptide with its awful alternative to the ion accelerator, if someone mentions the helldrake, we're talking about the helldrake with the torrent flamer and not the one with the hades auto cannon. You can't excuse the 6th edition helldrake by saying that it had a bad alternative option, so that makes it 'kay, so please stop cluttering half your post about irrelevant information about how the poor Riptide has the potential of being bad.

Tau lists with minimum fire warrior tax can get a substantial amount of S5 shots, please stop beating around the bush.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And no, tactical with meltas will only hit you with both meltas 40% of the time and cover/shield drone will mostly tank away those shots, assuming that the tacticals didn't die from intercepter or at least the melta carriers, which isn't unlikely because the short range on their weapons most likely means that they are in the front end of the squad, being picked off.

SGTPozy wrote:
AM Orders:

"Take Aim!"
- Precision shots
"Smite at Will"
- Split fire
FRFSRF
"Forwards, for the Emperor!"
- Shoot then run
"Move!Move!Move!"
- 3d6 dice to run, use the highest
"Suppressive Fire!"
- Pinning

SO only:
"Bring it Down!"
- Monster hunter and tank hunter
"Fire on my Target!"
- Ignores cover
"Get Back in the Fight!"
- A unit gets back up

Tau:
+1 BS
Ignores cover (2 tokens)
Fire a seeker missile



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gotta love how guardsmen can do everything that Tau can do (prescience to reroll whilst Tau just hit better, both get ignores cover) yet get no hate just because they are IoM, just like Boomwolf said.
IoM armies are way too OP!

The +1 BS bonus stacks, and the +1BS/Ignores Cover works for the shooting of any unit in the Tau army and its usability is only limited by what the Pathfinder/Markerlight unit can see. That unit on the other side of the board that suddenly needs to be deadlier can get buffed just by hitting 2 infinite range markerlights at the target they're shooting.

Orders require an Officer in a Command Squad first , 1) so basically, if you're running competitive Mech, you're not going to get anything unless you're lucky enough to have a Mech CCS, 2) they only work on units with 12'', creating vulnerabilities and issues and 3) are there to turn otherwise underwhelming Guardsmen into something effective, disregarding Vets.

Meanwhile, Tau Firewarriors already function effectively across the board and at mid-close range (even in overwatch with supporting fire and shot buffs they're absurd), nevermind with added Fireblades and Ethereals which you neglect to mention. Riptides with infinite range S8 AP2 pie plates with absurdly good LOS due to height can get the same ignores cover as Firewarriors too.

As for the whole Psyker deal, your average AM army isn't going to always have reliable prescience given the new rules and abundance of Psyker heavy armies, and its still limited by 12'' range.

To be honest the Markerlight system isn't that overpowered or wrong but I'll add to the chorus that the fact 2 markerlights makes ignores cover is pretty dumb, it should be 1hit and -1.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Lets cover Zewrath's complaints.


DS/drop pods-you are complaining I can "hit first" against a mechanic that to begin with is a "hit first, you cant do anything about it" in its nature.

Yes, except "I can hit first" is the fundamental reason and effective part about playing drop marines. Tau have absurd firepower that rip armies to pieces as they close in, have immunity to trouble from various nuances other races have to deal with, have a rule that makes assaults against them dangerous and thus balances out one of their previous only weaknesses, and jetpack suits and Riptides. The Tau's "I hit first" is an absurdly cheap upgrade that crosses off another issue on their notepad of things that are effective against them.

CC-bulls. its just that people don't undertand HOW to CC tau.

Trump card argument. This is one that was discussed in detail a long while ago and can be summarised as "L2P". It is meaningless to the debate as the polite assumption is that we know what we're talking about and trying to discuss this point in particular, is well, pointless.

you dont need a superkiller that can stop anything, you need a tactical marine. you don't need great, good or even decent CC unit, just something not as much as a failure as a tau in it.

I already went over the issue here above, but I'd like to point this out. Tactical Marines are absolute garbage against Tau (well, in general) and if you can charge them successfully, consistently and reliably at Tau, someone should make you a medal.

Hide behind cover-yea, it works, markerlights are of limited supply. most 1850 turnie lists can only mark a single unit per turn. and every mark spend on cover ignoring, is a makr not spent on actually hitting stuff.

I doubt the marking one unit a turn thing to begin with and the validity of your accuracy over ignores cover comment is questionable at best.

Outgun-well, naturally if you can outgun a codex that has nothing BUT guns, than the entire codex is pointless. though IG (as your pic suggest you are) and the new renegades can defiantly compete. so can "dakka-orks" lists

I agree.

Skyfire with interceptor-only riptides or HQs can even in theory get it. its expensive, it blocks out other important upgrades and the usual platform isn't even good at AA fire (riptide) with mere BS3 shooting 3 S7AP2 shots, or 8 S6AP4 they are not even a genuine threat. the one that is, is the ECPA riptide from the enclaves with his likely 12 S6AP4 rending shots, but he is using a one-of relic, expensive as hell, and giving away the FnP upgrade he needs as he turned himself into the prime target of most lists.

The Tau have good enough firepower that interceptor alone on a Riptide/HYMP Broadsides is very effective against flyers. That Interceptor upgrade as far as I'm aware on both is only 5 points.


I'll agree that the "2 markers to ignore cover" over "1 mark, -1 cover" change was a mistake though.

As do I.

What Omega said. I will also add that few armies have a way to get range, AP 3-, and Ignores Cover on the same weapon. IG does, but HWT are incredibly overcosted and are squishy as anything.

Also, few armies get interceptor on anything they want to take. Having it on AP2 pie plates is just a horrifically bad idea. Even if its not incredibly effective due to BS3, its still having the chance to obliterate any unit that attempts to make any sort of tactical move to negate the gunline's advantage.

You also have the problem that tau promotes what is arguably the worse of the two forms of combat: shooting. We have so many strong shooting armies, but very few strong assault armies. Demons are the only competent assault army currently, and they have to load up on a stupid number of special rules to negate shooting's dominance. Shooting dominance also has a LOT fewer room for counters than assault dominance. Assault dominant meta rarely is entirely assault. You see assault lists running over gunlines, but hybrid lists having a lot of success. Shooting dominant metas are entirely shooting (see pre-demons tau and eldar lists). That is the inherent problem with making shooting-only armies dominant. However, GW doesn't seem to care.

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:
My regular gaming opponents always have something to say a Tau, generally of the negative fashion. But generally it comes down too, we have too many special rules. We always have a way to counter anything they our opponents bring. Supporting fire is just over the top, and same same with ignores cover. So many weapons have twin-linked and virtually anything can ignore cover. Oh and the big one lol we can buy any special rule for cheap. Is it really that bad, I don't see the problem with it? But I am probably blinded by like bias for Tau. Every needs to have access to things like skyfire and that it's only fair.

I think the criticism is very unfair.

Without Markerlights, the army couldn't even compete. WITH them it can, though the Markerlights can be eliminated. So whereas the entire Space marine force gets +1 BS without a Markerlight, Tau dont.

And instead of getting Ignores cover all over the place from Psyer powers AND basic weapon systems such as Astra Militarum do... Tau dont.

And the Tau Empire has almost all 2" for WS and INIT. No one is worse.

Our "dedicated melee" unit is a farce that does more shooting and dying than it ever thought of doing in melee.

And our transports DONT have 4 hull points and start at AV 13 like Necrons get and we DONT have speed like eldar and Dark Eldar have and We DONT get Power Armor on much of anything. We DONT get Fearless and we DONT get a Heldrake or anything that people generally fear from the skies.

We also don't have characters that can tilt a battle on their own.

Anywho. Yeah. Tau Empire have to do things differently to get back some of those disadvantages. And thats fine. I dont complain. Didnt before the new codex and i dont now.

The trouble is, people hate losing to an army they FEEL like they shouldnt lose to. thats about it. The Tau empire is a creative force, and it has to do things with synergistic efforts that can be eroded. If someone wants tobeat Tau, they just need to prioritize better and adjust better. Because Tau have two really good things going for them: when they hit, they hit hard at range. thats never been different. And the second thing they have is the ability to sneak.

Opponents should adjust accordingly.

If, AP2 pie plates that intercept is fething slowed. here I agree.

Again same offender-the ion accelerator upgrade for the riptide.

Pretty much anything wrong in tau can be attributed directly to it.

 IXLoiero95XI wrote:
My regular gaming opponents always have something to say a Tau, generally of the negative fashion. But generally it comes down too, we have too many special rules. We always have a way to counter anything they our opponents bring. Supporting fire is just over the top, and same same with ignores cover. So many weapons have twin-linked and virtually anything can ignore cover. Oh and the big one lol we can buy any special rule for cheap. Is it really that bad, I don't see the problem with it? But I am probably blinded by like bias for Tau. Every needs to have access to things like skyfire and that it's only fair.

The army that has tooooo many Fethin rules would be necrons

Every single thing has something silly.

 BoomWolf wrote:
If, AP2 pie plates that intercept is fething slowed. here I agree.

Again same offender-the ion accelerator upgrade for the riptide.

Pretty much anything wrong in tau can be attributed directly to it.

And yet you can null deploy and then bring the boom. This is not rocket science.