12 year old shot and killed by police for waving toy gun in Cleveland

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**A Town Called Malus**

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/23/boy-fake-gun-shot/19438005/

Police in Cleveland fatally shot a 12-year-old boy wielding what turned out to be a replica gun. They were responding to a 911 call in which a man said a juvenile was scaring people with a gun that probably was fake.

The boy, identified by the Cuyahoga County Medical Examiner's Office as Tamir Rice, was shot in the torso in the playground area of a recreation center Saturday afternoon.

Deputy Chief Ed Tomba said one officer fired twice after the boy pulled the fake weapon -- which didn't have the orange safety indicator usually found on the muzzle -- from his waistband but had not pointed it at police. The boy did not make verbal threats, Tomba said, but grabbed the replica handgun after being told to raise his hands. He died Sunday at MetroHealth Medical Center.

The shooting comes amid a continued nationwide focus on police incidents, including the ongoing grand jury investigation in Ferguson, Mo., and the fatal shooting of a Florida policeman during a house fire outside Tallahassee on Saturday.

Cleveland police released Saturday's 911 call from a man who said he was across the street from the park.

"There is a guy with a pistol, it's probably fake, but he's pointing it at everyone," the caller says. The caller later repeats that the gun is probably fake, and adds that "he's probably a juvenile."

The gun was found to be an "airsoft"-type replica gun, a BB-gun type gun that resembled a semi-automatic pistol.

Jeff Follmer, president of the Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association, said the officers were not told the caller thought the gun might be fake.

The police force and the Cuyahoga County Prosecutor's Office are investigating.

Contributing: Associated Press

So, this is a thing. A thing that is probably not going to help with the whole police shooting black people anger currently going around.

**d-usa**

If we are talking about people getting shot over "toy guns" it would help to have a picture of the toy:

It's not a very toy looking toy gun, and having the orange-tip removed doesn't help anything. There is a reason that there are more and more areas that have laws requiring that replica toy guns get covered in bright ugly paint.

The family (or at the very least the lawyer for the family) also states that they don't think this was a racial issue.

**filbert**

I feel sorry for the officers involved being placed in a situation where they had a choice of either shooting a child or being potentially shot themselves. I just cannot for the life of me fathom why even a 12 year old would be so stupid to as to ignore a police request to put his hands up and then make a grab for a gun. I mean, what on earth did he think they would do? Rank and utter stupidity.

**OIIIIIIO**

Feel bad for the family and really bad for the officer who shot him. The family have to deal with the child's death, which is sad. The officer has to live with the fact that he essentially smoked an unarmed child. I know he was carrying what looked like a real gun, but the officer will think of it like that ... I know that for sure.

**LuciusAR**

I don't think it helps that some people have the knee jerk reaction of crying 'racist' when an incident of this nature occurs.

A policeman certainly shouldn’t open fire without provocation, but neither should they be required to be shot at first so that then be certain the gun in question is real. If the kid in question reached for the fake gun when challenged I don’t see what else the cop in question could do.

Put yourself in the cops shoes for a second. You know the juvenile has been waving the gun in the threatening manner. Upon challenging him the kid reaches for said gun. Do you just do nothing on the grounds that it’s ‘probably’ fake?

It’s tragic but if the kid chose to reach for the gun as opposed to raising his hands I don’t see how there is anyone to blame but him.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

I know it's a high pressure/split second decision to be made,

but seeing as it was a kid, couldn't they have shot him in the leg or something?

**LuciusAR**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I know it's a high pressure/split second decision to be made,

but seeing as it was a kid, couldn't they have shot him in the leg or something?

I don’t claim to be a gun expert so I’m happy to be corrected but I think the whole ‘shoot to disarm’ thing is straight out of Hollywood. You can’t fire a round from a pistol with that sort of precision in a split second. For that reason cops tend to aim for the largest target which is the torso.

**filbert**

LuciusAR wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I know it's a high pressure/split second decision to be made,

but seeing as it was a kid, couldn't they have shot him in the leg or something?

I don’t claim to be a gun expert so I’m happy to be corrected but I think the whole ‘shoot to disarm’ thing is straight out of Hollywood. You can’t fire a round from a pistol with that sort of precision in a split second. For that reason cops tend to aim for the largest target which is the torso.

Exactly. The whole 'shoot to wound' nonsense is a complete fallacy.

**Steve steveson**

OIIIIIIO wrote:
I know he was carrying what looked like a real gun, but the officer will think of it like that ... I know that for sure.

He will probably be forever haunted by the feeling of "What if I had waited" and wondering what he could have done. The poor guy will probably be forever haunted by that and quite possibly be unable to do his job as he will question every time he has to draw his gun. Not to mention the witch hunt centered on him that I can guarantee will start within the next three hours as Cleavland wakes up to this and people start to read about his death yesterday over their breakfast.

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I know it's a high pressure/split second decision to be made,

but seeing as it was a kid, couldn't they have shot him in the leg or something?

Unlikely on an adult. Almost impossible on a 12 year old kid. Even at ranges under 10 yards thats a very small target.

**Medium of Death**

He reached for the weapon when they told him to get his hands up, I'd think that was a pretty big red light for the officers that this might indeed be a real gun. It also looks like real weapon.

Find a way to express your thoughts that isn't incredibly rude. motyak

**LuciusAR**

filbert wrote:

Exactly. The whole 'shoot to wound' nonsense is a complete fallacy.

A friend of mine is a British Police officer and is occasionally armed as part of his duties. British armed police tend to use Carbines such as an MP5. I asked him about this once as I didn’t understand why the police needed to use these as opposed to pistols. It struck me as being overkill and was surely likely to lead to bystanders being accidently shot.

He told me that on the contrary it’s the complete opposite. Pistols are not particularly accurate at any range beyond a few meters whereas an MP5 is far more accurate at a longer distance. It’s actually the use of pistols which is far more likely to lead to bystanders being accidently hit.

So if this cop was armed with a standard police pistol the idea that he could just shoot him in the arm or leg is extremely unlikely.

**Steve steveson**

Medium of Death wrote:

edited by motyak

Not really appropriate. What ever he did he was still a 12 year old kid. He made a stupid mistake that got him killed. The blame is mostly on him (and partly on whoever let him have a replica gun in public. I say replica because it is far to realistic to be called a toy, and I don't believe in calling BB guns toys. It's that kind of attitude that causes tragedies like this), but hit was still a stupid mistake.

LuciusAR wrote:
I asked him about this once as I didn’t understand why the police needed to use these as opposed to pistols. It struck me as being overkill and was surely likely to lead to bystanders being accidently shot.

He told me that on the contrary it’s the complete opposite. Pistols are not particularly accurate at any range beyond a few meters whereas an MP5 is far more accurate at a longer distance.

Also, the risk of bystanders being shot is down to the ammunition (at least for risks of overpenitration, ricochet and risk of passing through other objects). As far as I am aware the UK police use the MP5 variant with the 9x19 pistol cartage. If they used the MP5 with the Nato rounds that would be more of a risk, and would be overkill. (Some useless off topic information for you). Both have a place, and firearms officers have access to both, and other weapons, depending on the need.

I think MP5s also have a use in the UK for psychological reasons. When firearms officers are deployed proactive (standing around with guns rather than doing things like attending an indecent) an MP5 in their hands is far more obvious than a pistol on their hip.

**BlaxicanX**

Medium of Death wrote:
He reached for the weapon when they told him to get his hands up, I'd think that was a pretty big red light for the officers that this might indeed be a real gun. It also looks like real weapon.edited by motyak.

What the hell?

**CptJake**

Steve steveson wrote:

Not really appropriate. What ever he did he was still a 12 year old kid. He made a stupid mistake that got him killed. The blame is mostly on him (and partly on whoever let him have a replica gun in public.

Honestly, being a parent with two grown sons and a 12 year old daughter, there is a BIG chance no one 'let him have a replica gun'. Kids manage to get hold of stuff they like and take it where they want, often without parents knowing about it.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

I can safely say that 99% of all Dakka members would freely admit to being an idiot when they were 12 years old. I got caught stealing sweets from a shop, at that age.

re my earlier comments about shooting the poor kid in the leg, I went out and looked at a fence post (about the width of an average leg), stepped back ten yards, and came to the conclusion that the earlier posters were right. It's not an easy target.

**CptJake**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I can safely say that 99% of all Dakka members would freely admit to being an idiot when they were 12 years old. I got caught stealing sweets from a shop, at that age.

re my earlier comments about shooting the poor kid in the leg, I went out and looked at a fence post (about the width of an average leg), stepped back ten yards, and came to the conclusion that the earlier posters were right. It's not an easy target.

Now picture that fence post moving. And run a couple of sprints to get your heart rate up and to get you breathing hard to simulate the stress the cop may well have felt..

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

CptJake wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I can safely say that 99% of all Dakka members would freely admit to being an idiot when they were 12 years old. I got caught stealing sweets from a shop, at that age.

re my earlier comments about shooting the poor kid in the leg, I went out and looked at a fence post (about the width of an average leg), stepped back ten yards, and came to the conclusion that the earlier posters were right. It's not an easy target.

Now picture that fence post moving. And run a couple of sprints to get your heart rate up and to get you breathing hard to simulate the stress the cop may well have felt..

Agreed, it's not easy. The cop might have had the sun in his eyes as well. This may seem a daft question for gun owners but how much of an impact can sweaty hands have on your grip? Do gloves or some sort of grip powder make a difference?

Always a tragedy to see a kid getting killed. Could they not have tasered him instead? Or is that too risky for a teenager's heart?

**CptJake**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
CptJake wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I can safely say that 99% of all Dakka members would freely admit to being an idiot when they were 12 years old. I got caught stealing sweets from a shop, at that age.

re my earlier comments about shooting the poor kid in the leg, I went out and looked at a fence post (about the width of an average leg), stepped back ten yards, and came to the conclusion that the earlier posters were right. It's not an easy target.

Now picture that fence post moving. And run a couple of sprints to get your heart rate up and to get you breathing hard to simulate the stress the cop may well have felt..

Agreed, it's not easy. The cop might have had the sun in his eyes as well. This may seem a daft question for gun owners but how much of an impact can sweaty hands have on your grip? Do gloves or some sort of grip powder make a difference?

Always a tragedy to see a kid getting killed. Could they not have tasered him instead? Or is that too risky for a teenager's heart?

Tasing may be risky to a kid's heart, but so is a slug from a pistol. I sure would have liked to see the cop zap the kid instead of capping him, but I wasn't there. The info the cop had made deadly force an option.

As for the sweaty hands, I've never had much of a problem with that, though I suppose some may benefit from gloves.

**Steve steveson**

CptJake wrote:
Steve steveson wrote:

Not really appropriate. What ever he did he was still a 12 year old kid. He made a stupid mistake that got him killed. The blame is mostly on him (and partly on whoever let him have a replica gun in public.

Honestly, being a parent with two grown sons and a 12 year old daughter, there is a BIG chance no one 'let him have a replica gun'. Kids manage to get hold of stuff they like and take it where they want, often without parents knowing about it.

I wasn't saying it was the parents, but the kid didn't make the gun himself. Someone, be that the parents, a shop owner, older sibling, friend, or whatever, let a 12 year old get access to that gun and take it away from adult supervision. I understand that 12 year old kids will try and find ways to get what they want, but all I was saying was that some adult, somewhere along the way, did something that enabled the kid to get hold of the gun and they are in some part responsible for the result, along with his parents not teaching him proper respect for guns. Whatever your politics on guns every parent should teach their kids that guns are not toys, even BB guns (Not fear, respect). More so in the US where guns are relatively available, and no parent can control the actions of everyone your kid comes in to contact with.

CptJake wrote:

Tasing may be risky to a kid's heart, but so is a slug from a pistol. I sure would have liked to see the cop zap the kid instead of capping him, but I wasn't there. The info the cop had made deadly force an option.

Could simply be a matter of range. Tazers only have a range of something like 10 meters. If the kid was 12 meters away it may have been the only choice.

**CptJake**

Steve steveson wrote:
CptJake wrote:
Steve steveson wrote:

Not really appropriate. What ever he did he was still a 12 year old kid. He made a stupid mistake that got him killed. The blame is mostly on him (and partly on whoever let him have a replica gun in public.

Honestly, being a parent with two grown sons and a 12 year old daughter, there is a BIG chance no one 'let him have a replica gun'. Kids manage to get hold of stuff they like and take it where they want, often without parents knowing about it.

I wasn't saying it was the parents, but the kid didn't make the gun himself. Someone, be that the parents, a shop owner, older sibling, friend, or whatever, let a 12 year old get access to that gun and take it away from adult supervision. I understand that 12 year old kids will try and find ways to get what they want, but all I was saying was that some adult, somewhere along the way, did something that enabled the kid to get hold of the gun and they are in some way responsible for that, along with not teaching him popper respect for guns. Whatever your politics on guns every parent should teach their kids that guns are not toys, even BB guns. More so in the US where guns are relatively available, and no parent can control the actions of everyone your kid comes in to contact with.

I disagree. There is no indication some adult 'let' the kid take the gun away from adult supervision. Kids gonna kid.

And at 12, my sons had pellet guns and other toy guns. I never felt the urge to supervise them playing with toy guns. They did have to have permission to take the pellet guns out, and I don't think we let them go shoot unsupervised until they were 14 or 15.

**Mr. Burning**

Apparently, in the time before the incident, the kid was repeatedly pulling the gun from his trousers (pants for you amercians

) and threatening others - either for lolz or to get another kind of reaction.

If true then it was either going to be someone who he did this to beating on him, responding in kind (for real) or the police getting involved.

There's probably a lot more to come on this but It looks like the cops had no real choice.

Feel sorry for family who have lost their child though

**Jihadin**

Its kind of ingrain for those who bear arms in a official way are trained to shoot "center mass"

**MWHistorian**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
CptJake wrote:
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
I can safely say that 99% of all Dakka members would freely admit to being an idiot when they were 12 years old. I got caught stealing sweets from a shop, at that age.

re my earlier comments about shooting the poor kid in the leg, I went out and looked at a fence post (about the width of an average leg), stepped back ten yards, and came to the conclusion that the earlier posters were right. It's not an easy target.

Now picture that fence post moving. And run a couple of sprints to get your heart rate up and to get you breathing hard to simulate the stress the cop may well have felt..

Agreed, it's not easy. The cop might have had the sun in his eyes as well. This may seem a daft question for gun owners but how much of an impact can sweaty hands have on your grip? Do gloves or some sort of grip powder make a difference?

Always a tragedy to see a kid getting killed. Could they not have tasered him instead? Or is that too risky for a teenager's heart?

If you have a proper grip then sweaty palms wouldn't be a factor. Adrenaline is however. In a stressful situation as this, people fall back to their training that's been most ingrained into them. This is why soldiers and police officers have to practice so often, to get that muscle memory. That training is for shooting center of mass. Taking time to aim at a body part or even the gun like movies like to show, simply isn't realistic in the slightest. In Iraq you seldom had the luxury of aiming like it was an accuracy competition.

**Tannhauser42**

d-usa wrote:

It's not a very toy looking toy gun, and having the orange-tip removed doesn't help anything. There is a reason that there are more and more areas that have laws requiring that replica toy guns get covered in bright ugly paint.

And even then, you can have your real guns painted to look just like toy guns. These days, there's just no way for a police officer to be truly certain.

**Ouze**

I'm sorry the child got shot, but if if the reporting on this is accurate, it's a justified shooting.

I consider myself a harsh critic of our too-often poor policing, but if the police approach with guns drawn and demand to see you hands, and you instead pick up a firearm*, I can't fault it.

*or so close a facsimile as to render it equivalent.

**LordofHats**

Jeff Follmer, president of the Cleveland Police Patrolmen's Association, said the officers were not told the caller thought the gun might be fake.

Sounds like there was a critical, and tragic, communications error XD

**XvReaperXv**

As a retired officer, I see no problems with this shooting with the information given. Sad to see a child lose his life for this reason, but I would have done the same thing. I left work everyday kissing my kids goodbye, and I was going to do everything I could to make it back to them at the end of the day. A lot of people will say he should have seen that the gun was a fake. I had the pleasure of conducting a car stop a few years back, long story short there was an illegal tech nine under the drivers seat. Thankfully I did not get shot, but the thing about this weapon, the tip was pointed orange, and the gun was coated with a very glossy black spray paint.

I asked the driver why he painted the gun. He said it was so if he was stopped he would have the advantage over the cops thinking it was a toy gun. I've also seen shotguns cut and placed in the shell of a super soaker, and many other crazy setups. So when you see these stories and think the cops over reacted, think about what they see on a day to day basis.

**Ouze**

You know I read this much earlier and just skimmed this version of it. That dispatch didn't relay that is a tragedy, perhaps even criminal liability.

**Andilus Greatsword**

Ouze wrote:
I'm sorry the child got shot, but if if the reporting on this is accurate, it's a justified shooting.

I consider myself a harsh critic of our too-often poor policing, but if the police approach with guns drawn and demand to see you hands, and you instead pick up a firearm*, I can't fault it.

*or so close a facsimile as to render it equivalent.

Pretty much this. It's definitely a tragedy, but I have a hard time blaming the police considering the child's actions. That said, I'm most annoyed at the person who called the police in the first place... you're going to get a kid taken away because you're annoyed that he's pointing a toy gun at people? Could they not have just told them to stop themselves?

In all this, I'm also wondering where the parents were.

**Jehan-reznor**

Were warning shots fired. was the kid told to drop the "weapon"?

Or is the shoot first ask questions later ok?