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If someone has access to the 2nd Ed Space Wolf Codex, feel free to add anything:

Codex Space Wolves, 3rd Edition, page 4 wrote:Will Not Teleport: Space Wolves have little trust or respect for the more arcane aspects of the technology used by the Imperium. In particular, they dislike the idea of teleporting into battle and remain stubbornly opposed to its use. To represent this, any Space Wolves models with Terminator armour may not Deep Strike unless the entire army enters play in drop pods.

Codex Space Wolves, 5th Edition, page 61, the rules for Terminator Armour wrote:NB: Though the Terminators of other Space Marine Chapters often teleport straight into battle, Space Wolves have a deep mistrust of such arcane tactics and prefer to fight on their feet on solid ground, just as Russ intended.

They are fine with aircraft. They are fine with space flight. They are fine with orbital deployment, gunships, rough landings, Land Speeders, jump packs and pogo-sticks. They don't like to teleport, and Logan Grimnar came out in 2000. Can we all move on now?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Separating the new miniature kit aspect of it, this doesn't go against the fluff of 40K or the Space Wolves at all.

It wouldn't break the fluff, if the Caestus didn't exist. But it does, the Space Wolves use it, and now you have to ask why they bother with these new flyers when they already have one that fills the same role. Yeah, out of universe we know it's because "main" GW likes to pretend that FW fluff doesn't exist and needed a new flyer kit, but in-universe it's just redundant.

I completely reject that these two craft and the Caestus have the same role, in the same way that the Chibi-Hawk doesn't invalidate the Thunderhawk, or the other way around.

But the difference there is that the mini-Thunderhawk is actually significantly smaller than the full-size Thunderhawk. The Thunderhawk is the superheavy gunship with a titan-scale weapon and massive transport capacity, the Stormraven is a lighter unit that can carry a single squad in situations where a Thunderhawk is overkill. This thing is pretty much the same size (16 models vs 10 models and ignore "bulky") as the Caestus, fills the same role of flying assault transport for a single squad, costs about the same points, and even looks like it has the same role. You could even proxy a Caestus as either of the new flyers with a minor gun swap at most.

They made something that aesthetically exists with an existing Marine unit, meaning that it fits more with 40K than any other Marine flyer since the Caestus and the Thunderhawk.

But the problem is that it doesn't just fit aesthetically, it looks like someone cut a Caestus in half and glued some wolf icons on it. GW took the lazy route of making a ripoff of an existing design instead of trying to make something new that fits the theme while still being a new design.

So, anyone got any info on when Logan Grimnar was released?

MaxT wrote:
So, anyone got any info on when Logan Grimnar was released?

The existing one? 3rd edition. Most definitely. He's in my 3rd edition Codex and was never in 2nd edition.

Fact of the matter is, we don't have the fluff behind this flier so nobody can really say whether or not it's justified. All of this is being based on the similarity between this and another ship. Until we have the concrete information, it's pretty much impossible to claim that something is unnecessary or a ripoff. It could be the difference between a heavy bolter and an assault cannon.

- Both are weapons that can be carried
- Both fire rounds
- Not the same thing

What I'm saying is that unless you know the origin and all of that, you can't really make any definitive statements.

 Peregrine wrote:
It wouldn't break the fluff, if the Caestus didn't exist.

Nonsense. The idea that these two things can't co-exist is stupid.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Nonsense. The idea that these two things can't co-exist is stupid.

But why should they exist? This is like GW inventing a new "Rhino" kit that works just like a Rhino, except it has a bunch of wolf icons glued everywhere, some of the detail bits are rearranged, and the storm bolter is twin-linked.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
If someone has access to the 2nd Ed Space Wolf Codex, feel free to add anything:

The not wanting to teleport thing is a 3rd edition addition. 2nd edition Space Wolf Terminators would teleport, I don't recall anything saying they disliked teleporting and it specifically said in the WG Terminator rules that they could teleport at an additional cost of +50% of their total points value.

I remember when 3rd edition came out thinking "wtf, why have my Space Wolves become barbarians who don't like technology?".

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
If someone has access to the 2nd Ed Space Wolf Codex, feel free to add anything:

Codex Space Wolves, 3rd Edition, page 4 wrote:Will Not Teleport: Space Wolves have little trust or respect for the more arcane aspects of the technology used by the Imperium. In particular, they dislike the idea of teleporting into battle and remain stubbornly opposed to its use. To represent this, any Space Wolves models with Terminator armour may not Deep Strike unless the entire army enters play in drop pods.

Codex Space Wolves, 4th Edition, page 61, the rules for Terminator Armour wrote:NB: Though the Terminators of other Space Marine Chapters often teleport straight into battle, Space Wolves have a deep mistrust of such arcane tactics and prefer to fight on their feet on solid ground, just as Russ intended.

They are fine with aircraft. They are fine with space flight. They are fine with orbital deployment, gunships, rough landings, Land Speeders, jump packs and pogo-sticks. They don't like to teleport, and Logan Grimnar came out in 2000. Can we all move on now?

Adding to that, the 5th edition codex has this to say under the terminator description:

Though the Terminators of other Space Marine chapters often teleport straight into the battle, Space Wolves have a deep distrust of such arcane tactics and prefer to fight with their feet on solid ground, just as Russ intended.

Reading that, while I think the fandom may be jumping the gun, it is indeed a dumb line. How the hell is using a teleporter "not fighting on solid ground"? You spend more time "off the ground" in a drop-pod then you do using a teleporter.

The statement should have just ended at the Wolves having a deep distrust of teleportation technology.

When did GW give any consideration to the fluff?

Now, if you don't mind, I've got unbound demons to use with my SW army.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Adding to that, the 5th edition codex has this to say under the terminator description:

Sorry, I meant the 5th Ed Codex in my description. I'll edit my post.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Reading that, while I think the fandom may be jumping the gun, it is indeed an extremely stupid line. There is no relation between using a teleporter and "fighting on solid ground".

I'm not sure what you mean. The relationship is clear: Wolves don't teleport. Anyone saying that this attitude extends outwards to things like Jump Packs and aircraft lacks reading comprehension skills and/or an appreciation for what the word "context" means.

There is no relationship between not wanting to be off the ground and using a teleporter. You spend more time with your feet off solid ground in a drop-pod or a jump-pack then you do when using a teleporter.

Per my edit, the statement makes sense when ending at "Wolves distrust teleporter technology and don't use it." The part about desiring solid ground as a justification for their distrust is superfluous.

Again: Context.

The idea is they like firm, proven technologies. Trying to imply any further meaning is just wishful thinking.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Clang wrote:
I don't understand all the nerd-rage over its look. Of all the SM fliers, this looks the least stupid to me.

IMO it's not the design itself, it's the fact that they took an existing design and made it less appealing. If this had been the first one it wouldn't have been so bad, but when it's an obvious mediocre ripoff of one of GW's other kits it's pretty disappointing that this is the best they could do.

Hmm, true, but you could also argue(and I will) that it's a pleasant surprise that they seem to have at least tried to come up with something that's appropriately thematic in a less "on the nose" way than was previously the case; I'll take an improbable sci-fantasy Viking longship over a werewolf with wolf claws riding a giant wolf any day of the week. And honestly, if all the design team are capable of/are permitted to do by the suits is ripping off superior FW designs, well, better that than when they were operating under the same business-related strictures for each new release but putting out their own designs, lest we forget the Dreadknight, ChibiHawk, and the Chaos Dinobots.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm sorry, what about this vehicle breaks with the fluff?

Ahh oops, the whole "won't teleport" spread into "won't use flyers" to me I guess. I blame the community (my lack of knowledge of wolves due to them vs 1ksons is irrelevant!) spreading fud! ; p

Damnit, I've already said I didn't mind the look of it (similarity to caestus and all that)... now I need to really dig for something to gripe about. Price I guess is always a good fall-back!

 Yonan wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm sorry, what about this vehicle breaks with the fluff?

Ahh oops, the whole "won't teleport" spread into "won't use flyers" to me I guess. I blame the community (my lack of knowledge of wolves due to them vs 1ksons is irrelevant!) spreading fud! ; p

Damnit, I've already said I didn't mind the look of it (similarity to caestus and all that)... now I need to really dig for something to gripe about. Price I guess is always a good fall-back!

Maybe about the crazy new weapon technology that never existed before but now does?

"Land Raiders! Get your deep frozen Helfrost blasted Land Raiders!"

I think we've ascertained then that the SW are not in fact B.A. Baracus.

At least with regards to flight.

I might be late with my opinions regarding the new flyer, but feth me it looks bad. It's not the fact that is looks like the Caestus Assault Ram that bothers me, it's that it looks like a lazy third party copy with some bits slapped on, and this is a miniature that GW intend to sell in their own name, likely for an absurd price.

I actually really liked the recent Ork releases, especially the Flash Gitz. Unfortunately they have passed my personal price threshold, so I cannot justify purchasing GW products anymore since I play other miniatures wargames that I also want to afford.

Well, this argument is getting out of control.

The reason the SW don't like teleporting is because when you do so you don't get your Star Trek-style dissassemble/reassemble, you get shunted through the gakking Warp. The Rout don't trust the warp one bit.
Thus: no gakking teleportation, it's not about the tech, it's what it does to the user.

 STC_LogisEngine wrote:
Well, this argument is getting out of control.

The reason the SW don't like teleporting is because when you do so you don't get your Star Trek-style dissassemble/reassemble, you get shunted through the gakking Warp. The Rout don't trust the warp one bit.
Thus: no gakking teleportation, it's not about the tech, it's what it does to the user.

Well then they should word it as such in the fluff instead of wording it like they have, lol.

IIRC, there was also some fluff about 'feet on the ground' to explain why in 3rd edition Blood Claws lost their jump packs.

They later came back as Sky Claws so I guess GW backtracked.

At least Dakka Dakka are a bunch of equal opportunity whiners.

That flyer looks cool.

I will say that I can't stop seeing it as a dog head now.

 Peregrine wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Nonsense. The idea that these two things can't co-exist is stupid.

But why should they exist? This is like GW inventing a new "Rhino" kit that works just like a Rhino, except it has a bunch of wolf icons glued everywhere, some of the detail bits are rearranged, and the storm bolter is twin-linked.

Caestus Assault Ram - "Assault Rams are void attack craft, intended to participate in close-range space boarding actions, that can also act as drop-assault vessels for direct orbital attack."<--forgeworld site.

They are specifically built for void conditions and combat.
The Stormfang, was probably (because we have no fluff yet) built specifically to get troops into the atmosphere of the planet and deal in planetary combat. For all we know it could have been the precursor to the Caestus.


Real world example. Two young boys are born on the same day, at the same time, in the same city, in the same hospital, whose mothers were both in the same room. They both fill the role of child and son to a mother. Why not, by your logic, make both mothers share the same child? Because, by your logic, why should the both exist?

Khine wrote:
Real world example. Two young boys are born on the same day, at the same time, in the same city, in the same hospital, whose mothers were both in the same room. They both fill the role of child and son to a mother. Why not, by your logic, make both mothers share the same child? Because, by your logic, why should the both exist?

Two young boys born on the same day, at the same time, in the same city, in the same hospital, whose mothers were both in the same room. Some years later, one makes an analogy that is not even remotely comparable to the discussion at hand.

Khine wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Nonsense. The idea that these two things can't co-exist is stupid.

But why should they exist? This is like GW inventing a new "Rhino" kit that works just like a Rhino, except it has a bunch of wolf icons glued everywhere, some of the detail bits are rearranged, and the storm bolter is twin-linked.

Caestus Assault Ram - "Assault Rams are void attack craft, intended to participate in close-range space boarding actions, that can also act as drop-assault vessels for direct orbital attack."<--forgeworld site.

They are specifically built for void conditions and combat.
The Stormfang, was probably (because we have no fluff yet) built specifically to get troops into the atmosphere of the planet and deal in planetary combat. For all we know it could have been the precursor to the Caestus.

From IA2 2E page 142 (The Caestus unit entry):

As a result of the seminal discoveries made by the acclaimed machine-arcanist Arkhan Land in the lost vaults beneath the Martian wastes, the Caestus was fitted with an array of anti-grav projection nodes that allowed it to operate within the gravitational field of a planet or similar sized body. This adaption turned the Caestus from a craft limited to operations in the cold depths of the void to one also capable of assaulting the most formidable of fortifications on a planet's surface, making it a vital weapon in the arsenal of many Space Marine Chapters.

The Caestus already exists and does exactly what this was supposed to do it seems. Not to mention the simialr (and probably better) look. If GW wanted to modify the rules for their own publication that wouldn't have been a problem.

If the kit is available at a decent price, the iconography is optional and they're similar size I wouldn't be against getting it for use as a "counts as" caestus since I don't like working with resin, especially for larger kits.

I find it amusing that people are griping against a potential retcon to Wolves fluff by citing a previous retcon (3rdEd) as canon.


Also, again, The military has many ships that are virtually smaller variations of larger ships. Space Wolves tend to fight in smaller packs (on full expeditions, not like in battle) It would make sense to have smaller assault ships, therefore having a smaller variation of the Ceastus.

The US Navy has smaller versions of Aircraft Carriers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_carrier

I mean, if they serve roughly the same purpose why not just use the big ones? Because you don't always NEED the big ones thats why. The military is full of different model crafts that serve redundant purposes. It shows a lack of military knowledge when one complains that having redundant crafts is "unrealistic" when it's actually very realistic.

Triangle time!

Anyway - back on TOPIC.

With the new assault flier, does this make SW termies viable again?

Going off of the DA codex - could we see an upgraded Terminator squad or just plain new rules for WG?

 Uriels_Flame wrote:
Triangle time!

Anyway - back on TOPIC.

With the new assault flier, does this make SW termies viable again?

Going off of the DA codex - could we see an upgraded Terminator squad or just plain new rules for WG?

I can't see how it would help them much. They are still overcosted, and the earliest you can get into assault from a flier is turn 3, that's best case. That also doesn't factor danger to passengers being on a destroyed flier(STR 10 AP1 hits to everyone).

It would be cool to see some positive changes to WG terminators though.

 SmurfInABlender wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Plus, the Space Wolf codex was woefully lacking in the "requisite giant model" category.

Well, it could have been a Wolfknight instead. A quadrupedal Dreadnought for a critically injured thunderwolf, ridden by a Space Wolf Dreadnought.

I already have a wolfknight. No need for them to make one when the conversion is simple.



And you guys think GW takes it too far. I like to go "How can I wolf this up even more than they do?"

Thats awsome looks really good

 Peregrine wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Nonsense. The idea that these two things can't co-exist is stupid.

But why should they exist? This is like GW inventing a new "Rhino" kit that works just like a Rhino, except it has a bunch of wolf icons glued everywhere, some of the detail bits are rearranged, and the storm bolter is twin-linked.

Such duplication is commonplace in real world armies, and also within 40k universe - for example, Razorback vs Immolator.