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Gravity Pulse: All enemy Flyer, Skimmer, Jetbike and Flying Monstrous Creature units treat all terrain within 18" of an Obelisk, including open ground, as dangerous terrain. Zooming Flyers and Swooping Monstrous Creatures must also take a Dangerous Terrain test if they move within 18" of an Obelisk, even though they do not normally take dangerous terrain tests.

So do vehicles that have certain wargear that allows them to ignore DT have to take this? Likewise do bike units that have the ability to ignore DT take the test as well? It establishes a precedence that even flyers and swooping monstrous creatures have to take it as well. Even though Monstrous creatures ignore DT even when not swooping. What do you all think? An intent is there but the rule is a little on the open side.

No it doesn't set precedence it tells you specific exemptions. Thus Skill Riders ignore this, dozer blades get their reroll etc.

That is true, it only says that FMC and Zooming Flyers must take them even though they usually ignore it.

I think the downgrade of Gravity Pulse is quite harsh, especially since these DT's are ignored so often.

 FlingitNow wrote:
No it doesn't set precedence it tells you specific exemptions. Thus Skill Riders ignore this, dozer blades get their reroll etc.

Fortunately not too many flyers with dozer blades.
This rule just really means keep your zooming flyers away from them if you don't want them wrecked.
If used strategically in a large point game, a couple of obelisks can shut down zooming flyers over most of the board (just don't bring your own along as it never says that friendly models are excluded)

 ah64pilot5 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
No it doesn't set precedence it tells you specific exemptions. Thus Skill Riders ignore this, dozer blades get their reroll etc.

Fortunately not too many flyers with dozer blades.
This rule just really means keep your zooming flyers away from them if you don't want them wrecked.
If used strategically in a large point game, a couple of obelisks can shut down zooming flyers over most of the board (just don't bring your own along as it never says that friendly models are excluded)

All enemy models.

You should re-read that, it first two words are "All enemy.."

Sorry,, missed that,, two crazy kids driving me nuts while trying to enjoy the new codex...
Still makes for one heck of nice trap to other zoomers

So are mc's that are not swooping still effected?

 Tomb King wrote:
So are mc's that are not swooping still effected?

Yes, but all MC's have Move Through Cover. The only real effect that they will feel is the Initiative 1 when they assault.

So though MC have Move Through Cover, which would normally autopass any such test, do the requirements of the Gravity Pulse not hand wave that auto-immunity? It seems to me that the specific wording forces the MC to make whatever roll they would usually forgo. Seems rather directly phrased.

It's that situation where Codex trumps Rulebook IMO.

From 'Automatic Pass and Fail' in the main rulebook:

If a rule states that a characteristic test 'automatically passes' then no dice roll is needed; the test is passed.

Yes, the rule in the codex is poorly worded but it does point to the test no longer being 'automatically passed' since it requires you to actually take the test.

The RAW is pretty clear in the codex not sure why this is a question

Zooming Flyers and Swooping Monstrous Creatures must also take a Dangerous Terrain test if they move within 18" of an Obelisk, even though they do not normally take dangerous terrain tests.

they normally do not take tests because of MtC, specific codex entry says they must take the test even though they do not normally do so.

so they take the test.

RAW it is badly worded because MtC states 'automatically pass'

however if they normally automatically pass, they normally do not take a test.

rule calls out they take it even though they normally do not, RAI - they take the test.

 Ghaz wrote:
From 'Automatic Pass and Fail' in the main rulebook:

If a rule states that a characteristic test 'automatically passes' then no dice roll is needed; the test is passed.

Yes, the rule in the codex is poorly worded but it does point to the test no longer being 'automatically passed' since it requires you to actually take the test.

After you recommended checking out the rumours thread again, I went and took a look at the characteristics test section where Pass and Fail are listed. There are two Automatic Pass and Fail sections, and they are both close by in characteristic tests and leadership test. Dangerous Terrain has no such signifier, and fundamentally tests differently than either of the those two.

So I feel that quoting from that section does little good.

Where I feel that FMC and fliers interact with the Obelisk rule, is through no subtlety of the rulebook, but in the straightforward manner of the Gravity Pulse ruling "...even though they do not normally take dangerous terrain tests." A FMC normally does not take DT test because
1. It has Move through Cover
2. It is Swooping

When the rule addressing these fliers states the exact phrase above, it does not mean that it negates 1 only, or 2 only, it full on means: neither of these two reasons applies. Take that Dangerous Terrain Test because Codex Special Rule says so. No muckery in the rulebook saves their ass IMO.

I think this subject is rather self evident. I wouldn't be inclined to demand a FAQ for it myself, but if someone is up for it they can add it to the pile.

 Victory wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
From 'Automatic Pass and Fail' in the main rulebook:

If a rule states that a characteristic test 'automatically passes' then no dice roll is needed; the test is passed.

Yes, the rule in the codex is poorly worded but it does point to the test no longer being 'automatically passed' since it requires you to actually take the test.

After you recommended checking out the rumours thread again, I went and took a look at the characteristics test section where Pass and Fail are listed. There are two Automatic Pass and Fail sections, and they are both close by in characteristic tests and leadership test. Dangerous Terrain has no such signifier, and fundamentally tests differently than either of the those two.

So I feel that quoting from that section does little good.

Where I feel that FMC and fliers interact with the Obelisk rule, is through no subtlety of the rulebook, but in the straightforward manner of the Gravity Pulse ruling "...even though they do not normally take dangerous terrain tests." A FMC normally does not take DT test because
1. It has Move through Cover
2. It is Swooping

When the rule addressing these fliers states the exact phrase above, it does not mean that it negates 1 only, or 2 only, it full on means: neither of these two reasons applies. Take that Dangerous Terrain Test because Codex Special Rule says so. No muckery in the rulebook saves their ass IMO.

I think this subject is rather self evident. I wouldn't be inclined to demand a FAQ for it myself, but if someone is up for it they can add it to the pile.

My questions were... the RAI seems to be nothing ignores the DT test. However, RAW only zooming and swooping FMC and Flyers are affected. If FMC are moving normally without swooping they could technically RAW ignore the whole effect. Along with Skilled riders. It is a poorly worded rule that will be ignored most of the time unless faq'd.

blaktoof wrote:
The RAW is pretty clear in the codex not sure why this is a question

Zooming Flyers and Swooping Monstrous Creatures must also take a Dangerous Terrain test if they move within 18" of an Obelisk, even though they do not normally take dangerous terrain tests.

they normally do not take tests because of MtC, specific codex entry says they must take the test even though they do not normally do so.

No, they normally do not take Dangerous Terrain tests because Swooping FMCs, and Zooming Flyers ignore all terrain.

So a Swooping FMC is required to take the test. It has MTC. It auto passes. It still takes the test, it just passes.

No, automatically passing means you don't have to roll.
The rule clearly says you DO have to roll.

Kangodo wrote:
No, automatically passing means you don't have to roll.
The rule clearly says you DO have to roll.

Citation please. My rulebook says no roll is needed, so you don't have to roll. You can, but the result doesn't matter. If I have a shooting weapon carried by a BS 3 model, that automatically hits, I can roll a 2 To Hit, and the result doesn't matter. I still hit. Also, the rule says they take the test. It does not say to roll, just that unlike normal they take the test.

Hypothetical situation.

Model "X" has BS -. It also has a special rule that says it never needs to take a BS test.
Model "Y" has a special rule that says "X must take a BS test even though they normally don't."

What happens if I roll a 1 for the BS test? Do I fail, because a model with a Characteristic of - auto fails, or does it pass because a roll of 1 is always a success?

 Happyjew wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
No, automatically passing means you don't have to roll.
The rule clearly says you DO have to roll.

Citation please. My rulebook says no roll is needed, so you don't have to roll. You can, but the result doesn't matter. If I have a shooting weapon carried by a BS 3 model, that automatically hits, I can roll a 2 To Hit, and the result doesn't matter. I still hit. Also, the rule says they take the test. It does not say to roll, just that unlike normal they take the test.

Hypothetical situation.

Model "X" has BS -. It also has a special rule that says it never needs to take a BS test.
Model "Y" has a special rule that says "X must take a BS test even though they normally don't."

What happens if I roll a 1 for the BS test? Do I fail, because a model with a Characteristic of - auto fails, or does it pass because a roll of 1 is always a success?

So your saying that even though there is a special inclusion that they need to make the roll that they automatically pass it because they have mtc? Interesting argument and completely against what the rule is stating. They are affected even though they normally ignore such things as terrain.

I'm with Victory as he stated above.
The way the rule is written in the codex automatically takes into account that a swooping FMC has move through cover. The codex rule then removes the associated 'benefit' that the FMC has, and the model takes the DT roll.
Pretty clear to me, but I'm sure that some guys around here are going to log some billable hours trying to argue otherwise.

Now, as Tomb King has observed, it says nothing about gliding FMCs, so they wouldn't have to take the check as written.

I'll have to agree with HappyJew by RaW:

"must also take a Dangerous Terrain test if..."

"a model with the Move Through Cover special rule automatically passes Dangerous Terrain tests."

Sure, you are forced to take a test.
That you automatically pass.

Gravity pulse would need wording against move through cover. "even though they do not normally take dangerous terrain tests" not being enough.

You seem to be forgetting a thing.
'Automatically pass' doesn't mean you roll the dice ignore the result.
'Automatically pass' means you don't roll the dice and simply pass the test.
So if a rule says you still have to roll the dice, you can still fail it.

So a Unit with the Fearless special rule can fail a Pinning test it is forced to make?

Or are there rules that exist that say "Units that are Fearless must test for fear"? Which is wording not found in Gravity pulse?

Does it say: "Units with the Fearless special rule must also take a Pinning test, even though they do not normally take a Pinning test."?

In that case they could fail it, since that rule clearly overrules the part where they normally Automatically pass it.

Confusing the Tyranid's Horror Psychic spell rule, sorry.

Units with Fearless never fail (or can choose to fail) Morale or Pinning Tests.
Units with Move through cover never fail Dangerous terrain tests.

It really is a case of:
-The rules force you to test
- but any test you take is automatically passed.

I agree RaW this is a bit messy.

The rule never forces you to roll a dice. It forces you to take a test.
How does a MC test for DT? by automatically passing. The fact you passed without a dice roll doesn't mean there was never a test. The MC passed the DT test. Automatically, but it still took and passed the test.

There is difference in the rules to where something would not take a test, and when something automatically passes a test. While the results are the same the perquisite rules differ.

I also disagree on the intent being clear based on the picking out of Swooping MC's, if anything I think this lends into it. It has picked on Swooping MC's and how does DT differ from Gliding FMC's? Becuase Swooping FMC's are pointed out as not having to take DT tests at all, unlike Gliding ones. Moves through cover *might* have been overlooked, but the rules itself suggest it was as much as they suggest they were not, putting RaI in no mans land. It could be edition proofed. It could be in anticipation a MC might ever be released and not have or get to use those rules for any reason.

RAI is crystal clear here. Since all FMCs have MTC, then having a rule forcing them to make a test that they automatically pass will never accomplish anything. Therefore, if they intended for the test to autopass, they would not have written anything regarding FMCs in the ruletext in the first place. RAI: The FMC takes the test, and can fail it.

codedaemon wrote:
RAI is crystal clear here. Since all FMCs have MTC, then having a rule forcing them to make a test that they automatically pass will never accomplish anything. Therefore, if they intended for the test to autopass, they would not have written anything regarding FMCs in the ruletext in the first place. RAI: The FMC takes the test, and can fail it.

The rules themselves accomplish something regardless, striking at i1 on charge.

MC's auto pass DT tests
But they still added a line into Swooping MC's that they don't have to test, that line in itself is redundant so what was the special intent of that? I think probably just that Zooming flyers had that condition and it was to bring them in line. Likewise it's likely the rule mentioned Swooping FMCs and Zooming flyers just because they are normally mentioned together.


GW perhaps forgot move through cover, but what rules situation are we suggesting here? Use the USR for Gliding FMC's but then ignore it for Swooping FMCS?