Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi

So I've been away from the Warhammer community for a while. I left for the most part around the End of Times thing for two reasons, firstly I had no idea what was going on with AoS at the time (besides going to round bases), and I was going back to college at the time so figured I wouldn't give it too much focus anyway.

I've done some casual collecting, switching over to 40k in the meantime.

But I'm looking to return to Fantasy gaming. I'm trying to decide if I should consider going over to AoS (which in truth comes down to a singular question, should I rebase my models to round bases? I have an enormous amount and I'm not good at rebasing, but I like my models to be uniform in that way), or if I should make the jump a friend recommended and move instead to KoW?

How have things gone with the change to AoS? Are the community rejecting it or liking it?

And what's going on with KoW?

Should I instead buy square bases when I buy new models and transfer them on? Or if I'm going to rebase my models how best should I do it?

Thank you

Murdock129

Well, if your main concern is rebasing you're in luck, KoW use unit footprints so it is the movement tray that is important and you can stack as many bases of whatever shape you want on that. In AoS bases are also completely unimportant, as you measure everything model to model.

Hope that solves that issue for you

As for how AoS changed and how the community is receiving it... take a look in the AoS general, I'd think it fair to say that is is not being well received. Sure, some people are enjoying it but the community is at the very least fractured by it. For my part I think much of that is down to them destroying the setting and replacing it with a very poorly defined and empty 'realms' of infinite size and then focusing all the narrative stuff since on the immortal space marine equivalents.

KoW has seen a massive surge of popularity recently, it has quietened down a little since the initial shock of WHFB being scrapped but it has taken over from WHFB for one of the major American tourney circuits. The foreword in the recently released 2nd edition book actually has an amusing part about how they never thought when they were planning 2nd edition that they would be releasing the number one mass battle fantasy game on the market, and they are not wrong, if ranked soldiers are your thing AoS is not for you.

I am a little biased as I am a more competitive gamer than not and I consider a point system to balance the game a very important feature, but that is the impression I have seen of both games and if nothing else I would suggest picking KoW over AoS if you have to make a choice purely because KoW seems to be holding steady or gaining popularity while AoS does not seem to have a following except for in a very few small communities.

 jonolikespie wrote:
The foreword in the recently released 2nd edition book actually has an amusing part about how they never thought when they were planning 2nd edition that they would be releasing the number one mass battle fantasy game on the market, and they are not wrong, if ranked soldiers are your thing AoS is not for you.

Pathetic/hilarious that they felt the need to include that, little brother anyone?

Its all down to the mechanics you want: single bases like 40k, or unit block tactics like old Warhammer?

whirlwindstruggle wrote:

Pathetic/hilarious that they felt the need to include that, little brother anyone?

Well, it was written by Rick Priestly (you know, one of the original authors of WHFB), so if anyone's going to make a declaration on that, they got the right guy.

As for the OP, both rule sets and army lists are free, so you can check out both without needing to spend money.

I guess it depends on what you want out of your fantasy gaming. KoW is your regular rank-and-flank game, with regimented units marching in formation. It relatively rules-light and fast playing compared to 8th, and there's more of an emphasis on the units than on the heroes and wizards. Magic is toned down, with there only being 6 spells (Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Wind Blast, Bane Chant, Heal, and Surge). The justification being that all spells in fantasy gaming basically boil down to those six archetypes; short range big blast, long range high strength, defensive or offensive movement, buff, healing, and sudden forward movement. The rules are designed to be competition-oriented.

AoS is very much the opposite - it's supposed to be skirmish scale, with even less rules, although there are tons of special rules (in the Empire faction alone, I counted nearly 30 individual special rules). You don't need to rebase you models, as the rules make a point to ignore bases. There are no army lists/building, so it's a bring-what-you-want/can afford/can agree with what your opponent wants to play. YMMV, unless you're using one of the dozen or so community based attempts to make points cost and list building rules.

You can also check out other community attempts to replace 8th, like 8.5 or the Ninth Age.

Personally, I went with KoW. I like Mantic's design methods - I started playing WHFB because I liked the look of units marching across the table - and I prefer the element basing that allows me to get creative with my units.

AoS is the grown-up equivalent of pushing your toy soldiers around the table and making "pew-pew" noises. Fun for a bit, sure, but not very fulfilling after awhile.

There are, in fact, rules giving you bonuses for doing such things as dancing, talking to your model, having a bigger beard than your opponent, etc.

Well first off, a warning; there is a strong likelyhood this thread will devolve into heated argument and bashing over the two systems somewhere around page 2. Maybe tempers have cooled, but this has been the fate of previous threads involving your question.

Jono and Infinite gave pretty good summaries of the situation, imo, so I will try to add on what they said.

Going by what players have been saying on AoS, you need one of two things. The first is a good gaming group that is very reasonable about what they bring to the table; AoS has no inherent balance (at all) so without a comp system you will rely on your opponents to bring relatively balanced armies to what you have. Which brings me to the other option, a comp system. There are a lot of attempts to balance AoS in use across various locales, so it is worth seeing what your local playerbase has signed up with. Note that anything based on warscroll or wounds count will not be balanced (which is fine, just make sure you have the first option). Alternatively, the Azyr comp system has solid balance with very simple changes, while Project Points Cost has tighter balance but uses a bit more complexity to get there. Both assign points costs to AoS units.

As for KoW, Mantic is very onboard with players using whatever models they like, so your WHFB armies are good to go. The rules are free, but note that the free army lists available on their website are sample lists that contain the mainstay options for the army but only about half of what the full lists (found in the main rulebook) offer. Their first supplement, Hidden Kingdoms (has the fluff&lists for 8 new armies), is about to release and once it does KoW will have an analogous army to every WHFB one plus two that are more unique to them.

Good luck to you!

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
AoS is the grown-up equivalent of pushing your toy soldiers around the table and making "pew-pew" noises. Fun for a bit, sure, but not very fulfilling after awhile.

I've actually heard some of the criticisms being that people played it, they liked it even, but they they have no interest in buying into it and 'playing' it as a regular game. Making 'pew pew' noises can be plenty of fun but I don't think all that many people want to make a hobby of it.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
There are, in fact, rules giving you bonuses for doing such things as dancing, talking to your model, having a bigger beard than your opponent, etc.

Unless those rules were just there to deliberately embarrass the people still trying to use their WHFB armies in AoS and will not be put into any rules for new, AoS specific, releases... Either way I find it just devalues the hobby as a whole to be encouraging that kind of crap. I don't consider spending hours painting something or playing a game at a competitive level to be 'playing with little army men' or 'man dollies' or what have you and it is hard enough to get people outside the hobby to see the difference without those kinds of rules.

-

AoS suffers heavily from GW's special rules fetish, where everything must have tons of ancillary rules on top of the main rules, where KoW really never has units with more than a couple of special rules, with many of those being simple effects against stats that never have to be referenced after one or two glances. (Like Thunderous Charge, Piercing, etc, are just modifiers on certain rolls).

AoS is a four page set of rules, plus so-called 'war scrolls' which are the lists for all the legacy WHFB armies. These can be downloaded for free. If you want the war scrolls for the new armies (Chaos, and Sigmarites) then you have to buy the deluxe rulebook and campaign books -- surprisingly, these are very expensive -- or the tablet app.

The rules are a cut-down version of 40K mixed with WHFB. The stat line has been reduced a bit, however the same IGOUGO turn sequence and To Hit, To Wound, To Save combat mechanic is still there.

Magic is greatly simplified. There is a simple morale system called 'Battle shock', that can cause extra casualties on a unit losing troops. There is no command and control.

Each unit is simpler than before, but each unit will have one or more special rules. The tactics of the game are how to combine special rules from different units, especially characters and terrain, to get bonuses in combat. Terrain is defined by war scrolls too, relating to the various kits of magical terrain features that GW is producing. The other main tactic is how to get the best advantage in melee by positioning more figures within range, and judging the sequence of attacks and counter attacks. (For example, to cause maximum damage to the enemy's best unit before it gets its return hack, rather than attacking a weaker unit.)

Although figures are moved individually, you will often want to concentrate figures into the most compact formation to take advantage of the above tactical factors. There are no rules to prevent making formations to move and fight in ranks, and it will often be advantageous to do this. However there are no flanking bonuses, figures can move and fight in any direction without penalty, subject only the range of their weapon. Thus, quite strange formations have been created, such as the inverse T used to defend against charges.

There is no points system. The army lists are the war scrolls. You basically can bring whatever units you like. You and your opponent deploy one unit each alternately, until someone thinks they have enough on the table, after which the other one can deploy any more that he likes. If the larger army is big enough, the smaller army gets a special victory condition.

Much of the community has reacted with horror, disdain or amused disbelief at the rules. There are people saying it isn't a game, or it's the worst game ever written. This is not correct.

Despite the complaints, AoS certainly should not be dismissed out of hand. There is the great advantage that the game is very simple, free, and you can use your existing WHFB armies without modifications.

AoS certainly could and arguably should have been a lot better, but the rules are there for a simple fantasy mass skirmish.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
AoS is a four page set of rules, plus so-called 'war scrolls' which are the lists for all the legacy WHFB armies. These can be downloaded for free. If you want the war scrolls for the new armies (Chaos, and Sigmarites) then you have to buy the deluxe rulebook and campaign books -- surprisingly, these are very expensive -- or the tablet app.

This is the only part I disagree with - in fact, the war scrolls for all units, including Stormcast and Khorne are available freely online at GW, or in the AoS app. What is not available and locked without the books or app is the 'battalions', groups of units with special rules when taken together, like 40Ks formations. Overall, the books can be skipped unless you like the fluff and/or art. Otherwise, the war scrolls for units are online, and come in the boxes of minis, too, for that matter.

-

Both AoS and KoW are simplified down from WFB 8th... Aos a LOT moreso than KoW.

The Swedehammer and ETC Comp committees have gotten together and are making (granted, work in progress) a more balanced version of WFB 8th they're calling The 9th Age. It's an attempt to streamline and balance the mess that was WFB 8th, and they're in beta testing right now.

Murdock129 wrote:

But I'm looking to return to Fantasy gaming. I'm trying to decide if I should consider going over to AoS (which in truth comes down to a singular question, should I rebase my models to round bases? I have an enormous amount and I'm not good at rebasing, but I like my models to be uniform in that way), or if I should make the jump a friend recommended and move instead to KoW?

Unless there are big AoS and/or KoW scenes in your area (and even if there are), I'd point out to you and your friend that there's a third way. (And fourth, and fifth, and so on)

http://bombshell-games.com/mayhem/
http://www.crusaderpublishing.com/LegionsofBattle.php
http://adyswargamesden.com/2015/06/oh-i-forgot-to-say/
http://www.armiesofarcana.com
http://www.dadiepiombo.com/bifendef.pdf
https://ospreypublishing.com/dragon-rampant-pb - http://duxrampant.yuku.com/forums/113/General-Discussion/General-Discussion#.Vj-poWhFDMI

 Bottle wrote:
Yeah, Kilkrazy is 100% wrong with regards to the Warscrolls for the new armies. The rules for all units can be downloaded directly from the Webstore on the unit page. There are even some Warscroll Battlions available to download such as the Skyborne Slayers for the Stormcast Eternals.

You don't need to buy any of the big books or battletomes if you don't want to.

I apologise for that mistake. TBH I haven't looked at the downloads page for AoS for a few weeks, and certainly when I last looked only the legacy armies and the terrain war scrolls were available.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Its all down to the mechanics you want: single bases like 40k, or unit block tactics like old Warhammer?

You mean, do you want to play a game (KoW) or do you want to buy models to put on your display shelf (AoS)? AoS is not a functioning game. Some members have made their own games that are based on AoS, but the standard game is simply unplayable.

-

 Kilkrazy wrote:
AoS certainly could and arguably should have been a lot better, but the rules are there for a simple fantasy mass skirmish.

1) "Mass" and "Skirmish" are contradictions in wargaming terms.

2) Yes, there are several sets of rules for fantasy skirmish. Mordenheim and Warmahordes. AoS is redundant in the face of those two.

Granted, in my own opinion.

A skirmish wargame is one in which a single figure represents a single soldier.

Normally, skirmish games allow all the figures to move and fight independently, though often there are advantages for being grouped into units.

Mass skirmish is the format in which the rules require individual figures to be put into permanent unit groupings for movement and fighting.

AoS and KoW are very different games.

For my part, I vastly prefer KoW - but that is because I want a mass combat game.

And this is a role that KoW serves better, in my opinion, than any edition of WHFB since 3rd.

Age of Sigmar is a much more casual game - more akin, to my opinion, to Mage Knight than to Warhammer.

I wasn't a huge fan of Mage Knight, either. So, it is fair to say that I am not a huge fan of casual play.

The Auld Grump

 Vulcan wrote:

2) Yes, there are several sets of rules for fantasy skirmish. Mordenheim and Warmahordes. AoS is redundant in the face of those two.

Oh dear. 'Two' = 'several'.

http://www.ganeshagames.net/product_info.php?products_id=7
http://www.brinkofbattle.com
https://ospreypublishing.com/frostgrave - http://www.northstarfigures.com/list.php?man=195&page=1
https://ospreypublishing.com/of-gods-and-mortals-mythological-wargame-rules
https://ospreypublishing.com/dragon-rampant-pb
http://www.bushido-thegame.com
http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/our-ranges/gob
http://otherworldminiatures.co.uk/shop/product-category/otherworld-skirmish-rules-and-accessories/

And so on.

 Vermis wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

2) Yes, there are several sets of rules for fantasy skirmish. Mordenheim and Warmahordes. AoS is redundant in the face of those two.

Oh dear. 'Two' = 'several'.

http://www.ganeshagames.net/product_info.php?products_id=7
http://www.brinkofbattle.com
https://ospreypublishing.com/frostgrave - http://www.northstarfigures.com/list.php?man=195&page=1
https://ospreypublishing.com/of-gods-and-mortals-mythological-wargame-rules
https://ospreypublishing.com/dragon-rampant-pb
http://www.bushido-thegame.com
http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/our-ranges/gob
http://otherworldminiatures.co.uk/shop/product-category/otherworld-skirmish-rules-and-accessories/

And so on.

You do realize that your disagreement is only making AoS more redundant, yes?

There's actually one or two more that I would add to your list, if I had time.

The Auld Grump

I like and play both.

Well, let me put it this way, I _love_ Kings of War and it is simply one of my favorite rulesets in the history of the universe. I've been playing it for three years. It exercises the tactical portions of my brain most satisfyingly. It's one of the most balanced rulesets ever made. It revitalized my interested in mass combat games after I stopped playing Warhammer when 8th edition came out - and I bought roughly a half dozen entirely new armies just to model and play with just for KoW in addition to my 6th/7th ed Warhammer armies.

But, I also enjoy Age of Sigmar. When my friends come over and want to have a beer, AoS comes out and there's a lot of laughing and shouting and dice rolling. It's one of the best beer and pretzels rulesets ever written. This is after I hated it when it first came out - the simplicity of it won me over (and I am currently collection a Stormcast Eternals and Nurgle army for AoS)

So, it depends on what you'd prefer! Or, play both, like me!

 judgedoug wrote:
It's one of the best beer and pretzels rulesets ever written.

No, it's one of the worst, because it's virtually unplayable "out of the box". A good beer and pretzels ruleset does not require you to create extensive ban lists, constantly worry about if your choices are too powerful, house-rule things that are stupid RAW, etc. It's certainly possible to make a good beer and pretzels fantasy wargame, but AoS is not that game.

 Peregrine wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
It's one of the best beer and pretzels rulesets ever written.

No, it's one of the worst, because it's virtually unplayable "out of the box". A good beer and pretzels ruleset does not require you to create extensive ban lists, constantly worry about if your choices are too powerful, house-rule things that are stupid RAW, etc. It's certainly possible to make a good beer and pretzels fantasy wargame, but AoS is not that game.

You don't have to worry about any of those things if you stop trying to pretend that the game must be a fair contest of skill between evenly matched opponents. AOS isn't that, but it is fun if you game for the journey and not the result.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
AOS isn't that, but it is fun if you game for the journey and not the result.

And when Smaug burned and ate the dwarves, the dwarf player shouted, "YAY! What a journey!"

 Breotan wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
AOS isn't that, but it is fun if you game for the journey and not the result.

And when Smaug burned and ate the dwarves, the dwarf player shouted, "YAY! What a journey!"

It's alimentary, my dear Breotan.

The Auld Grump

 Breotan wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
AOS isn't that, but it is fun if you game for the journey and not the result.

And when Smaug burned and ate the dwarves, the dwarf player shouted, "YAY! What a journey!"

My gaming group has a different outlook than yours. An exciting or memorable death is often preferred to a successful play through.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well, the ones I still game with, anyway.

 Peregrine wrote:

 judgedoug wrote:
It's one of the best beer and pretzels rulesets ever written.

No, it's one of the worst, because it's virtually unplayable "out of the box". A good beer and pretzels ruleset does not require you to create extensive ban lists, constantly worry about if your choices are too powerful, house-rule things that are stupid RAW, etc. It's certainly possible to make a good beer and pretzels fantasy wargame, but AoS is not that game.

Technically no game that requires you to glue models together, let alone paint them should be considered beer and pretzels.