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Scenario A: You, as the ever so brilliant person you are, just finished a perfect Tactical Squad. All the highlights are crisp and perfect, there's nothing wrong with them! You even got a 9 here on Dakka! So, you head down to your local GW store to do some playing. All goes well, until... Disaster strikes! Your precious Tactical Squad is bumped off the table, and someone steps on it! Intentionally or not, all the delicate parts snap and break, and It's obvious they will do no good other than as kitty litter. What do you do if the person was a child? An adult?

B: You're a commission painter, painting an Imperial Knight at a top level. You're charging 3x the cost of the Knight. A lot of money, right? You're almost finished painting when... ach nein! The Knight gets knocked off the table, gets paint splashed on the perfect free hand paintjob and then gets stepped on! What do you do if a child did it? A teenager? An adult?

C: The same thing as A happens, but you're the one who does it. What do you do? Pay them, offer to replace them, maybe even buy some other stuff for them?

A. Unintentional? Shrug, gak happens.
A. Intentional? A child, probably tell them they are a brat and shrug, little point abusing a kid.
Adult? Get them to cough up for a replacement. If they refuse and are unapologetic/gak heads, take it outside.
B. Same as A.
C. Offer a replacement if its really annoyed them.

 Matthew wrote:
Scenario A: You, as the ever so brilliant person you are, just finished a perfect Tactical Squad. All the highlights are crisp and perfect, there's nothing wrong with them! You even got a 9 here on Dakka! So, you head down to your local GW store to do some playing. All goes well, until... Disaster strikes! Your precious Tactical Squad is bumped off the table, and someone steps on it! Intentionally or not, all the delicate parts snap and break, and It's obvious they will do no good other than as kitty litter. What do you do if the person was a child? An adult?

B: You're a commission painter, painting an Imperial Knight at a top level. You're charging 3x the cost of the Knight. A lot of money, right? You're almost finished painting when... ach nein! The Knight gets knocked off the table, gets paint splashed on the perfect free hand paintjob and then gets stepped on! What do you do if a child did it? A teenager? An adult?

C: The same thing as A happens, but you're the one who does it. What do you do? Pay them, offer to replace them, maybe even buy some other stuff for them?

Scenario A: Sh*t happens. I can always get another model and if I painted it that well once, I can do it again. Not worth getting upset over. Hopefully the person apologizes.

Scenario B: Why would I bring a commissioned job to play with? Since it's my commission, I am responsible to replace it and repaint it if I messed it up.

Scenario C: Apologies profusely and offer to buy a replacement model(s). And maybe a soda or something to eat to ease the blow.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ratius wrote:
take it outside.

You'd get into a fight over a broken Miniature? Dude, life's too short.

 Matthew wrote:
Scenario A: You, as the ever so brilliant person you are, just finished a perfect Tactical Squad. All the highlights are crisp and perfect, there's nothing wrong with them! You even got a 9 here on Dakka! So, you head down to your local GW store to do some playing. All goes well, until... Disaster strikes! Your precious Tactical Squad is bumped off the table, and someone steps on it! Intentionally or not, all the delicate parts snap and break, and It's obvious they will do no good other than as kitty litter. What do you do if the person was a child? An adult?

B: You're a commission painter, painting an Imperial Knight at a top level. You're charging 3x the cost of the Knight. A lot of money, right? You're almost finished painting when... ach nein! The Knight gets knocked off the table, gets paint splashed on the perfect free hand paintjob and then gets stepped on! What do you do if a child did it? A teenager? An adult?

C: The same thing as A happens, but you're the one who does it. What do you do? Pay them, offer to replace them, maybe even buy some other stuff for them?

In all cases a replacement model/unit should be provided by the party who destroyed the item in the first place.

Property is property. If you accidentally smash into my car I expect you to compensate me for the damage. Same goes if I smash into yours. If your foot smashes my Dark Eldar Archon I get a new Archon. Same goes if my foot smashes your Hive Tyrant. If you are minor, your parents/guardians are responsible.

Now, for me, the real nightmare scenario is what happens if a hapless fellow gamer accidentally smashes my commission painted models (i.e. those I paid to have painted). Many gamers put little value in commission fees, however I you destroyed a $300 paint job on a $35 Arena Rex model I just had painted, buying me a replacement model isn't going to satisfy my loss.

You'd get into a fight over a broken Miniature? Dude, life's too short.

Yeah, you're right, Im keyboard warrioring.
But honestly if the person did it intentionally and was wholly unapologetic, its going to get at least very verbal! Theres no need or reason to destroy another persons hard earned/painted/loved miniatures :(

Mdlbuildr wrote:
With a car you have insurance to cover the damage (I hope).

And hopefully the person smashing in to you does as well (though in LA that isn't a guarantee). But so what? A lot of people in minor collisions choose to go outside of insurance and cover things out of pocket to avoid raising their rates, so you are kinda dodging here.

If you want to move away from cars, how about other personal property. You walk by me and snag and tear my shirt on accident. Do you buy me a new shirt? I am going to ask you to buy me a new shirt, Mr. Stranger-Who-Just -Tore-It. Would you refuse to do so because it was an accident? I don't have shirt insurance and you likely don't have "I am a clumsy walker" insurance, but if you aren't going to compensate me for your blunder what is your reasoning?

A: Punish them, intentional or not.

B: Punish them.

C: Punish myself.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
You walk by me and snag and tear my shirt on accident. Do you buy me a new shirt? I am going to ask you to buy me a new shirt, Mr. Stranger-Who-Just -Tore-It. Would you refuse to do so because it was an accident? I don't have shirt insurance and you likely don't have "I am a clumsy walker" insurance, but if you aren't going to compensate me for your blunder what is your reasoning?

LMAO, seriously? I tear your shirt by accident. You are going to demand a check to cover the damage? Are you going to drag me to TJ Max to buy you a shirt? I'd love to see how that plays out.

I would certainly apologize back and forth, but buy you a new shirt??? Sorry, but no. Take me to small claims court if you want.

"I punched him in the face because he tore my shirt by accident and wouldn't pay for a new one!!!"

Life is too short y'all. Maybe in my old age I just don't give a sh*t enough to bother. Is a $30 shirt worth that much aggravation and bother? Not to me, and it has nothing to do with money.

Now, as I mentioned above, if we have some kind of comradery like Table Top Gaming and I break one of your models by accident, I would apologize and certainly offer to replace it.

Mdlbuildr wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
You walk by me and snag and tear my shirt on accident. Do you buy me a new shirt? I am going to ask you to buy me a new shirt, Mr. Stranger-Who-Just -Tore-It. Would you refuse to do so because it was an accident? I don't have shirt insurance and you likely don't have "I am a clumsy walker" insurance, but if you aren't going to compensate me for your blunder what is your reasoning?

LMAO, seriously? I tear your shirt by accident. You are going to demand a check to cover the damage? Are you going to drag me to TJ Max to buy you a shirt? I'd love to see how that plays out.

I would certainly apologize back and forth, but buy you a new shirt??? Sorry, but no. Take me to small claims court if you want.

"I punched him in the face because he tore my shirt by accident and wouldn't pay for a new one!!!"

Life is too short y'all. Maybe in my old age I just don't give a sh*t enough to bother. Is a $30 shirt worth that much aggravation and bother? Not to me, and it has nothing to do with money.

Now, as I mentioned above, if we have some kind of comradery like Table Top Gaming and I break one of your models by accident, I would apologize and certainly offer to replace it.

Yep. You damaged my personal property. Be an adult and accept responsibility and pay for your error. Strawman it all you want by escalating things to violence, but no, if you damaged my shirt I would ask you to replace it in some manner. That could be by check, by cash, or even by buying me something suitable (buy me a beer if we are at a bar, for example), but you aren't getting away scott-free.

Life is too short I agree, why aren't you willing to compensate someone when you damage their property? What does that say about you as an individual? Double so that you will only consider replacing damaged property if it is a person you know and have some sort of comradely with. Well, that certainly says A LOT about you.

I do not understand people who feel entitled to disregard other people's property because it doesn't hit some arbitrary monetary value. I don't care if we are talking about a $5 plastic model or a $50 dress shirt, if you ruin someone else's property the courteous, responsible thing to do is make that person whole to the best of your ability.

Maybe I'm an a*hole. I don't know.

That being said, maybe you tore your shirt and are waiting to bump into someone so you can claim they tore your shirt and get a free shirt? I bet that never happens!

Don't you love when people judge others based on some ridiculously hypothetical internet situation?? I know I do!

LOL, come on. Live well, be happy. Eff that guy who ripped your shirt (if that's what actually happened), and go buy yourself a shirt and move on.

Rule #1 : treat others as you would want to be treated.

If I smashed someone's stuff and it was completely unfixable I would want myself to be held accountable for my mistake and that means replacing it. I would expect anyone to do the same.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Rule #1 : treat others as you would want to be treated.

If someone would accidentally bump into me and tear my shirt by accident, I personally would not expect them to buy me a new shirt. An apology, maybe, if they even realized what they did. A new shirt, LOL?? Nope.

Mdlbuildr wrote:
Maybe I'm an a*hole. I don't know.

That being said, maybe you tore your shirt and are waiting to bump into someone so you can claim they tore your shirt and get a free shirt? I bet that never happens!

Okay, so you don't really have an argument and are just taking gak.

Good to know!



So, back on topic how would you guys handle the scenario above but the models were commission painted and the damaged party wants those costs included in their compensation?

Its a consideration I have every time I take painted models to the local shop. I typically leave the most delicate or high-value painted models at home, but nearly all of my armies are commission painted and there are always showcase models mixed in with the more run-of-the-mill paint jobs, so a scenario like this could theoretically happen. Does that situation escalate to the store needing to cover the damage (assume that this takes place in a LGS)? Genuinely curious what people think/the law actually covers here.

Back on topic please! Thank you!

Yeah, I wasn't talking about the shirt thing. Who cares about shirts. It's not a very good analogy to broken models.

I'm just saying, if you would like someone to replace yours when they break it, you should replace theirs when you do.

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Yeah, I wasn't talking about the shirt thing. Who cares about shirts. It's not a very good analogy to broken models.

I'm just saying, if you would like someone to replace yours when they break it, you should replace theirs when you do.

Just to re-iterate, as I mentioned in my initial response, I would not expect a replacement if it was unintentional. Accidents happen. That's life. If someone offered to replace it, I wouldn't say no, for sure, but as an expectation, no. Life doesn't work that way. Your Rule #1 is very rarely the case. If you expect it, more often than not, you will be disappointed. Again, that's just life.

On the flip side, if I broke something like that, I would apologize up the wazoo and offer to replace it, IN THAT SITUATION. I consider people within the hobby as comrades. That's just who I am. I don't do it to make them feel better. I do it make ME feel better about breaking something that means something to someone that I can relate to. I would feel terrible I broke it, so I would offer to replace it.

A. If it was a paint job I was protective of, I either wouldn't game with it, or would keep my eye on the table. Mistakes happen, apologies get accepted. Attitude, however, would probably escalate things.

B. It would be your own fault either for gaming with clients' models, or allowing it to be in a vulnerable position with children in the studio. I actually nearly had a full row with my sister and missus recently when they wanted to send my two young nephews to play in my painting room, when the lights where broken and I hadn't prepared it for them. £1000's of pounds of models, scalpels, razorsaws, superglue etc everywhere. They thought I was just being difficult...

C. Apologise and assess. Is it fixable? I'd offer to repair it. Write off? Offer to replace. Either way, offer to buy a drink.

Take them to the Judge Judy show

A - Eh, models break, it's almost guaranteed. Shrug it off and look over the damage.
A2 - Intentionally damages my stuff eh? Yeah, I'm the guy who will get right in your gak. Not meant to sound like some internet tough guy (those who know me will say that I'm far from being a literal tough guy), but when I think about some shitbird destroying my stuff on purpose, the only proper response is a punch in the gut.

Note: Although, this second part seems more to generate absurd responses to an absurd situation, so meh?


B - Given my luck, I'd never chance a commission piece anywhere near a public place. But, if I ended up destroying it, I guess that's on me for not taking proper care of it - and on me to replace it. Ugh, the thought of it makes my stomach tight.

C - Overly apologetic. I'm pretty sure we can all agree on the labor of love that is mini construction and painting so this would make me feel pretty bad. If the mini was beyond repair I'd gladly replace it, even if it wasn't I'd still insist on repairing it and repainting it, or at least sliding the person a few bucks to make up for the hassle.

Mdlbuildr wrote:

AncientSkarbrand wrote:
Yeah, I wasn't talking about the shirt thing. Who cares about shirts. It's not a very good analogy to broken models.

I'm just saying, if you would like someone to replace yours when they break it, you should replace theirs when you do.

Just to re-iterate, as I mentioned in my initial response, I would not expect a replacement if it was unintentional. Accidents happen. That's life. If someone offered to replace it, I wouldn't say no, for sure, but as an expectation, no. Life doesn't work that way. Your Rule #1 is very rarely the case. If you expect it, more often than not, you will be disappointed. Again, that's just life.

On the flip side, if I broke something like that, I would apologize up the wazoo and offer to replace it, IN THAT SITUATION. I consider people within the hobby as comrades. That's just who I am. I don't do it to make them feel better. I do it make ME feel better about breaking something that means something to someone that I can relate to. I would feel terrible I broke it, so I would offer to replace it.

Yeah, I know the rule is rarely the case. It's just how I treat people. If they don't want to, oh well. At least I did, and have the good feeling of at least slightly making up for my mistake.

In short, I think we're generally in agreeance. I shouldn't have used the word expect. Appreciate would have been better.

A: If it was obviously a complete accident, especially with something like a tactical marine, I wouldn't make a big deal out of it. I'd be a bit bummed if the paintjob was really good, but c'est la guerre... Now if it was done on purpose and obviously so, it would get very ugly very fast, just on principle. If someone has a problem with me, that's ok, but destroying or stealing my stuff is never ok and will be dealt with harshly (even if the model is small and insignificant). If a kid did it, either on accident or on purpose, I'd locate the parents and tell them what happened and hopefully they would discipline the child.

B: I would never risk a commission job in a game. If it got destroyed, that would be at least partially on me for having the model where it didn't belong.

C: If I broke someone's model, I'd offer to replace it. It's only fair. And I would never destroy someone's model on purpose even if they were being a total donkey-cave.

I've read all of these and I'm glad most replies are rational. So, new scenario: You've got old RT Beakies. Someone breaks them. This is a bit different since, well, you can't buy them any more.

If you are playing with something you cherish and is irreplaceable, you can expect something bad to happen to it.

Murphy's Law every time.

Suck it up and move on. There are many more important things in life than material possessions.

I've asked parents to cover their kids breakages before.

example 1. I was apocalypsing, had a thunderbolt fighter out, kid leaned against the table, sent half the models to the floor. In their haste to "reclaim minis" all the others ripped my thunderbolt to shreds.

Several bits missing (which I've replaced since) and the paintjob totally ruined. (Had to totally redo the paintjob)

I asked the kids parents for $200 AU to cover the cost of the broken parts and repainting. They asked for a witness, GW manager affirmed it and I got $200 back for my trouble.

Yes, there are risks inherent within wargaming, but I don't expect people to upend a table, or dump one of my minis on the floor if they get upset. If you have a problem with me take it out on me.

 Doctadeth wrote:
I've asked parents to cover their kids breakages before.

example 1. I was apocalypsing, had a thunderbolt fighter out, kid leaned against the table, sent half the models to the floor. In their haste to "reclaim minis" all the others ripped my thunderbolt to shreds.

Several bits missing (which I've replaced since) and the paintjob totally ruined. (Had to totally redo the paintjob)

I asked the kids parents for $200 AU to cover the cost of the broken parts and repainting. They asked for a witness, GW manager affirmed it and I got $200 back for my trouble.

Yes, there are risks inherent within wargaming, but I don't expect people to upend a table, or dump one of my minis on the floor if they get upset. If you have a problem with me take it out on me.

I had a very similar thing happen to me, except on the other end.

Some neckbeard dude at a store had a bunch of his models precariously perched on the edge of a table. I bumped said table, as will happen in a crowded store and a couple of the models fell to the ground. Most were plastic and were fine, but one was a Forgeworld Fire Raptor. It broke into several pieces. Now, I probably wouldn't have a ~150 USD model perched on the side of a table, but maybe I'm crazy. The dude flipped out and demanded $150 as a replacement cost. I immediately said "Sure, I've been wanting a Fire Raptor." He just blinked at me in confusion and asked why I'd be getting a Fire Raptor. "Well, if I'm giving you replacement cost for this damaged toy, you're giving me the toy. If you want to KEEP the toy, I'm only giving you repair cost. Should take some glue and maybe 15 minutes worth of work. I'll give you $10." Dude flipped the feth out. Store manager got a good laugh and then had to calm him down. Dude took the $10 and pouted for months. It was, by far, the best $10 I've ever spent on entertainment for the entire store.

But yeah, I'm more than willing to pay to replace something I broke. BUT, I'm walking away with the broken thing. If you total your car, your insurance company cuts you a check and then takes the car. They would never give you both.

 Doctadeth wrote:
I've asked parents to cover their kids breakages before.

example 1. I was apocalypsing, had a thunderbolt fighter out, kid leaned against the table, sent half the models to the floor. In their haste to "reclaim minis" all the others ripped my thunderbolt to shreds.

I find your example very interesting. Some kid touches a table and it upends? How is that completely the kid's (or parent's) fault? Shouldn't the person who setup such an unstable table hold some responsibility? I'm assuming this was in a public venue. In my home I built a gaming table in my basement that would take an elephant to upend, and I only have my cats to worry about. Anyone setting up gaming tables in a public venue should assume that they are going to get bumped and jostled and plan accordingly.

Also, who are "all the others?" The other players? If so, shouldn't they hold responsibility if they did the actual damage?

That' the problem with these scenarios... in most cases it is an accident. If the table is unsteady, the gaming store/venue may be negligent and hold some responsibility. The players who leave expensive delicate models near the edges of tables hold some responsibility. Parents not supervising their kids hold some responsibility. The person bringing a priceless model to a public venue probably holds some responsibility. It's rarely a clear-cut case of "It's all your fault! You owe me!!"

Accidents happen. Unless somebody was acting improperly, if they accidently knock something off, that's just cost of doing business.

I mean, stuff gets knocked around at a game store. It's not carelessness or negligence, it's just accidental. And you cannot expect compensation for accidents unless somebody was acting out of line.

I asked the kids parents for $200 AU to cover the cost of the broken parts and repainting.

Uhmm 200 quid to reglue some parts and a paint job? Am I missing something here?

a. Grumble a bit, probably glare at the person (I'm not a saint) but at the end of the day, I'd let them off. If I thought it was intentional they'd get the rough end of my tongue though.

b. Doesn't really apply to me, but if I took on a business arrangement and got the models damaged by playing with them when they're not actually MY toys, that's on me.

c. Apologise profusely and offer to buy a replacement. Hopefully it's not a super expensive model though- I can imagine my theoretical good will might get strained if I had to suddenly cough up 200 euro for something. Then, I might offer a part of the cost for repairs, but feel like crap about it.

Gosh these things made me cringe.