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dominuschao wrote:
Had a game recently against triple harvest decurion vs draigostar. All 3 spyders were dead top of turn 2 and thats forgetting they didnt start with RP. No ranged presence to speak of in the army outside of compulsory and some night scythes was IMO a big factor. Game ended bottom of t6 final result draigo 15 harvest 6.

See everyone? The answer to Wraith cheese is to bring something just as cheesy. Yay!

Gotta love this game, right?

How did drago star manage 3 dead spyders?

did the necron player just force feed em in or something? or where they all clumped together for a massive multi charge?

To clarify, by the end of my 2nd turn.. 1 went down turn 1 and the other two turn 2.

See everyone? The answer to Wraith cheese is to bring something just as cheesy. Yay!

Gotta love this game, right?

Lolz well to be fair neither list was friendly and both sides were fine with that. I've said before if were discussing multiple harvest formations its probably not a 'friendly' game anyway.

Edit- anyway the match was fun and the wraiths were definitely hard. However without supporting fire I feel the wraiths weren't at their best and without the spyders the scarabs definitely moved into the realm of a tax.

dominuschao wrote:

How did drago star manage 3 dead spyders?

did the necron player just force feed em in or something? or where they all clumped together for a massive multi charge?

To clarify, by the end of my 2nd turn.. 1 went down turn 1 and the other two turn 2.

See everyone? The answer to Wraith cheese is to bring something just as cheesy. Yay!

Gotta love this game, right?

Lolz well to be fair neither list was friendly and both sides were fine with that. I've said before if were discussing multiple harvest formations its probably not a 'friendly' game anyway.

My main gripe is Draigo himself. I haven't seen anyone complain about him, much less Draigostar, yet people can't deal with Wraiths apparently. >.>

I agree he can be a pretty busted enabler along with his buddy loth.

dominuschao wrote:

How did drago star manage 3 dead spyders?

did the necron player just force feed em in or something? or where they all clumped together for a massive multi charge?

To clarify, by the end of my 2nd turn.. 1 went down turn 1 and the other two turn 2.

See everyone? The answer to Wraith cheese is to bring something just as cheesy. Yay!

Gotta love this game, right?

Lolz well to be fair neither list was friendly and both sides were fine with that. I've said before if were discussing multiple harvest formations its probably not a 'friendly' game anyway.

Edit- anyway the match was fun and the wraiths were definitely hard. However without supporting fire I feel the wraiths weren't at their best and without the spyders the scarabs definitely moved into the realm of a tax.

I mean through what method?

Mass Psilencers to attempt a 1 shot?

a TON of Psycanon shots? 3 Dreadknights? (like what was the list and what did you do? since just saying yeah i beat them doesn't really help.)

Draigo wing will curb stomp any assault army except draigo wing with allied priests in the paladin squads. That being said draigo wing isn't competitive because eldar, tau, white scars, and centurion spam will out shoot them.

I mean through what method?

Mass Psilencers to attempt a 1 shot?

a TON of Psycanon shots? 3 Dreadknights? (like what was the list and what did you do? since just saying yeah i beat them doesn't really help.)

list approximates:


Decurion: (4+ RP, reroll 1s within 12" of CCB, reroll moral within 12" of CCB, all units get MTC)

CCB- 2+/4++ scythe
2x10 warriors- night scythes
5 immortals
3 tomb blades

canoptek harvest x 3: (all get RP. Theres others but they dont matter or didnt here)

5 wraiths- whip coils
3 scarabs
Spyder


Mine:

LoW
draigo 245

HQ
sevrin loth ml 3, invis, shrouding, dominate, shriek 175
librarian ml 3, ndh 140 (divination- overwatch, 4++, rending, prescience)

TROOPS
5 tactical marines apoth, mg, cbmelta, drop pod 125 (#1)
5 tactical marines apoth, mg, drop pod 115 (#2)
5 terminators halberds 175

HS
3 centurion devastators grav/hurricanes, omni scope, warlord 260
relic fire raptor avenger bc, 2 turret qhb, 4 ssm 225
dreadknight teleporter, hvy psycan 195
dreadknight teleporter, hvy psycan 195

TOTAL 1850
WC 11


BAO/LVO missions, rolled 3 (longboard deployment, nightfight in effect, relic primary- 4 vp, modified maelstrom secondary- 3 vp). Each player places 1 objective in their DZ, relic as standard. Maelstrom is thus: Beginning of each game turn both players roll 2 of the following rerolling duplicates.. control obj 1, control obj 2, kill enemy unit, kill enemy unit, have a scoring unit in enemy DZ, have 3 scoring units and no enemies in your DZ. Each worth 1 VP at end of a GAME TURN. End of game whoever has more VP wins maestrom (+3 pts).

First turn cents vaped a spyder in cover with stealth and 4+ RP (I forgot it didnt have RP yet). Second turn fire raptor and cents smoked the other two and thats without ignores cover. Thing is this thread has been about 'competitive' level theorizing. At that level, as above, there are plenty of easy answers to spyders making them too much of a lynchpin for competitive play IMO. At least to build an entire list around.

I think the confusion stems from people nowadays referring to a Centurion Star with Draigo as a "draigostar", while that term used to be associated with a paladin star. IMO, a CentStar is still a CentStar and not a Draigo star as the centurions are what actually provides the hitting power. Draigo merely adds a storm shield and GoI.

It is a rough list to face with wraithspam, especially with guaranteed invisibility from Loth. Wraiths cannot tie you up as you just gate away.

dominuschao wrote:

I mean through what method?

Mass Psilencers to attempt a 1 shot?

a TON of Psycanon shots? 3 Dreadknights? (like what was the list and what did you do? since just saying yeah i beat them doesn't really help.)

list approximates:


Decurion: (4+ RP, reroll 1s within 12" of CCB, reroll moral within 12" of CCB, all units get MTC)

CCB- 2+/4++ scythe
2x10 warriors- night scythes
5 immortals
3 tomb blades

canoptek harvest x 3: (all get RP. Theres others but they dont matter or didnt here)

5 wraiths- whip coils
3 scarabs
Spyder


Mine:

LoW
draigo 245

HQ
sevrin loth ml 3, invis, shrouding, dominate, shriek 175
librarian ml 3, ndh 140 (divination- overwatch, 4++, rending, prescience)

TROOPS
5 tactical marines apoth, mg, cbmelta, drop pod 125 (#1)
5 tactical marines apoth, mg, drop pod 115 (#2)
5 terminators halberds 175

HS
3 centurion devastators grav/hurricanes, omni scope, warlord 260
relic fire raptor avenger bc, 2 turret qhb, 4 ssm 225
dreadknight teleporter, hvy psycan 195
dreadknight teleporter, hvy psycan 195

TOTAL 1850
WC 11


BAO/LVO missions, rolled 3 (longboard deployment, nightfight in effect, relic primary- 4 vp, modified maelstrom secondary- 3 vp). Each player places 1 objective in their DZ, relic as standard. Maelstrom is thus: Beginning of each game turn both players roll 2 of the following rerolling duplicates.. control obj 1, control obj 2, kill enemy unit, kill enemy unit, have a scoring unit in enemy DZ, have 3 scoring units and no enemies in your DZ. Each worth 1 VP at end of a GAME TURN. End of game whoever has more VP wins maestrom (+3 pts).

First turn cents vaped a spyder in cover with stealth and 4+ RP (I forgot it didnt have RP yet). Second turn fire raptor and cents smoked the other two and thats without ignores cover. Thing is this thread has been about 'competitive' level theorizing. At that level, as above, there are plenty of easy answers to spyders making them too much of a lynchpin for competitive play IMO. At least to build an entire list around.

I think harvests with max or near max numbers of wraiths are a mistake. Also that list has TOO MUCH harvest for its point level. They are very good support elements but if all you have is harvests, all you can do is pester and annoy enemies, not really bring any major offense to bear on them.

I'm much more scared of a balanced cron decurion that just takes a couple minimum size harvests and then concentrates on getting some offense in the list to go with them.

Harvest spam makes for an annoying army to kill, but not one that's very good at killing you.

niv-mizzet wrote:



I think harvests with max or near max numbers of wraiths are a mistake. Also that list has TOO MUCH harvest for its point level. They are very good support elements but if all you have is harvests, all you can do is pester and annoy enemies, not really bring any major offense to bear on them.

I'm much more scared of a balanced cron decurion that just takes a couple minimum size harvests and then concentrates on getting some offense in the list to go with them.

Harvest spam makes for an annoying army to kill, but not one that's very good at killing you.

But that's the rub. Unit selection inside a Decurion is so inflexible its hard to take more than one harvest and still have points left for any halfway decent offensive additions. I think a single, maxed out harvest working alongside a CAD will be much scarier as a balanced force.

Nah, minimal harvests are only 230ish. This isn't really theory hammer for me anymore. I've run them and gotten our cron players to run them that way. They cause just as much trouble and disruption as a full harvest, but allow for a much more fleshed out army to support them.

Needless to say the cron games around here have been very one-sided games.

Hmm not bad.

Gates and H&R lists should do fine since the wraiths cant really turn around and omnomnom them for safety

I would of turned the spiders and scarabs around onto the drop pod marines asap to keep em from getting cented or shot personally. but thats depends on the actual map and where they came in :/
Cant wait to see more lists and stuff.

I think harvests with max or near max numbers of wraiths are a mistake. Also that list has TOO MUCH harvest for its point level. They are very good support elements but if all you have is harvests, all you can do is pester and annoy enemies, not really bring any major offense to bear on them.

I'm much more scared of a balanced cron decurion that just takes a couple minimum size harvests and then concentrates on getting some offense in the list to go with them.

Harvest spam makes for an annoying army to kill, but not one that's very good at killing you.

But that's the rub. Unit selection inside a Decurion is so inflexible its hard to take more than one harvest and still have points left for any halfway decent offensive additions. I think a single, maxed out harvest working alongside a CAD will be much scarier as a balanced force.

This and this.
Couldn't have said it better myself. I think it would be arguably hard to find a better list than what I faced that was focused on 3 harvest formations. And thats really my point in posting this here. Take this boogyman out of the abstract. The harvest formation is nuts, BUT whats the rest look like. Without fire support it was one dimensional and put me on auto pilot as far as target priority goes because there wasn't really anything shooting back. I believe wraiths will be featured in most necron lists and definitely in competitive lists. I believe decurions won't feature more than 1-2 harvest formations while CADs will be able to max out on them.

I also feel wraith players will really be missing their D lords because they just arent that killy without S7 ap2 and PE for the unit. For example my dreadknights destroyed 10 wraiths over the course of the game in combat. Meanwhile one unit of 5 tacs held up a full wraith unit for 4 cc phases. They didnt inflict any damage but they didnt have to because the damage was done just by surviving.

Nah, minimal harvests are only 230ish. This isn't really theory hammer for me anymore. I've run them and gotten our cron players to run them that way. They cause just as much trouble and disruption as a full harvest, but allow for a much more fleshed out army to support them.

Needless to say the cron games around here have been very one-sided games.

I can see the usefulness in MSU harvests. However at that point you could take a full squad of nilla wraiths that doesn't have the weak spot of a spyder built in. Meh its good either way, just depends on what you want I guess. I don't feel that 3 wraiths are very threatening though, at least not against armies like GK, SW etc. Now if your meta is largely tau/DE/Eldar etc, i.e. armies with a distinct lack of combat oriented units then its probably another story.

Hmm not bad.

Gates and H&R lists should do fine since the wraiths cant really turn around and omnomnom them for safety

I would of turned the spiders and scarabs around onto the drop pod marines asap to keep em from getting cented or shot personally. but thats depends on the actual map and where they came in :/
Cant wait to see more lists and stuff.

I agree. These abilities are key as it allows you to turn their durability against them since they won't usually kill anything tougher than meq in one round. Its also worth noting that these two abilities are still pretty accessible for most of the higher end armies. Again thats why they need fire support.

On the DP marines you'd have to see the battlefield. I dropped my first pod in my DZ on top of obj 2. The second pod I sent after obj 1 in his DZ once the major threat had moved away from it. Essentially the wraiths had to rushed my main source of firepower because what else could they do.

The game ended with only 2 night scythes and 2 wraiths left.

Let's say people are running 6 Wraiths in their units.
How many would one need to kill to 'weaken' them to the point where they aren't as scary any more?
Are that four, three or even more models you need to kill?

I think that with an Harvest you should either take the Spyder out or slow him down to force the Wraiths out of range.
After that they are only half as durable.

 krodarklorr wrote:
See everyone? The answer to Wraith cheese is to bring something just as cheesy. Yay!
Gotta love this game, right?

Isn't that the definition of cheese?
If there were simpler ways to kill cheese, it wouldn't be called cheese..

I am building my Necron cheese now but am only using a CAD and one harvest because that is ITC legal. Even though I don't play in tournaments, i think ITC is becoming something of a social contract boundaries for the competitive minded players.

that said, my list has max wraiths and scarabs and weigh of dice should cause more than anger, frustration an complete demoralization for my opponents.

(FYI, I normally play marines and was looking for a way to have speed and CC ability. Surprisingly, Necrons seem to do this best! I am not your average bandwagon jumper)

I had my wraiths tango with a warboss+20 or so boys with lucky stick and a unit of 3 meganobs for 4 rounds. On round 3 the spyder died so the wraiths lost FnP for round 4. They did a serious number in return though. taking out all 3 meganobs with a lucky rend roll, and taking out +10 boys before going down.

With the old D-lord/mindschakle trick the warboss would have killed himself, or the D-lord would have killed him and the combat would have ended much sooner.

Wraiths are not nearly as killy without the D-lord, who usually did most of the heavy lifting anyway. They are still dangerous, the T5 was awesome, as orks were only wounding on 6s, and the +3/+4 had them hanging out a lot longer. It gave the rest of my army time to lay the hurt on him. 5 ignore cover tomb blades did plenty of damage in the one shooting phase they had. Next time I will play smarter with them.

Hang on can't you just "wrap" your important units in an expendable cheap throwaway unit that the wraiths have to chew through to get to your important squads?

So say you have your Cent squad and you just wrap a unit of scouts around it so the wraiths can't get into base contact with the cents, should allow you an extra turn to shoot and kill the wraiths.

Punisher wrote:
Hang on can't you just "wrap" your important units in an expendable cheap throwaway unit that the wraiths have to chew through to get to your important squads?

So say you have your Cent squad and you just wrap a unit of scouts around it so the wraiths can't get into base contact with the cents, should allow you an extra turn to shoot and kill the wraiths.

Assuming the scouts dont die or run at an unfortunate time

So what are peoples solution to this?

Orikan
Obyron
6 Canoptek Wraiths w/ Transdimensional Beamers

The only problem with bubble wrapping your units is that the wraiths can muti charge and depending on how well you bubble wrapped them the wraiths will just be getting two in one.
Also how cheap are scouts? I know they are light weight but they are marines which means they're expensive (relatively at least)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have several wraiths and the most effective thing that seems to kill me has been ork killa cans. I think its the armor eleven and the fact that you cant attack the back armor that really slows them down.

Thing 2.0 wrote:
The only problem with bubble wrapping your units is that the wraiths can muti charge and depending on how well you bubble wrapped them the wraiths will just be getting two in one.
Also how cheap are scouts? I know they are light weight but they are marines which means they're expensive (relatively at least)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have several wraiths and the most effective thing that seems to kill me has been ork killa cans. I think its the armor eleven and the fact that you cant attack the back armor that really slows them down.

you get half a infantry squad for the same price. but with better armor and T4

Edit: You should be able to rend through a few of those. but yeah a big unit of walkers could do ok i think

Otherwise enough mass bodies with some kinda good save (like a 4+ invul or FNP should hold them down for the rest of the game (like grotesques (also there ID weapons should be good use)))

I played with my wraith wing this past weekend and found that although the wraiths were killy, it was their resilience that made them mean. S6 rending is great, but it was their 3++ invul that kept them alive all game. that RP is not even necessary.

Yeah, I think after all the hoopla, people are realizing wraithwing isn't the cheese it was worried to be.

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I had my wraiths tango with a warboss+20 or so boys with lucky stick and a unit of 3 meganobs for 4 rounds. On round 3 the spyder died so the wraiths lost FnP for round 4. They did a serious number in return though. taking out all 3 meganobs with a lucky rend roll, and taking out +10 boys before going down.

With the old D-lord/mindschakle trick the warboss would have killed himself, or the D-lord would have killed him and the combat would have ended much sooner.

Wraiths are not nearly as killy without the D-lord, who usually did most of the heavy lifting anyway. They are still dangerous, the T5 was awesome, as orks were only wounding on 6s, and the +3/+4 had them hanging out a lot longer. It gave the rest of my army time to lay the hurt on him. 5 ignore cover tomb blades did plenty of damage in the one shooting phase they had. Next time I will play smarter with them.

I'd just like to mirror your remarks with my own.

Played Necrons this past weekend. Keep in mind I KILLED the Spyder in Turn 1 before the Wraiths got into Assault. So other than my first turn of shooting, the Wraiths didn't get Reanimation Protocols. When I DID shoot at them (had nothing better to shoot with turn 1) It was basically like firing nerf balls at a brick wall.

From then on, Turn 2 until we called the game at the bottom of 5, the Wraiths were in combat.

I had 20 Boyz with a PK Nob, Warboss, and Painboy in combat with them. Turn 3, I added 3 MegaNobz to that combat.

The Orks managed to put 1 wound on the Wraiths. The Warboss managed to kill 4 of them (over 4 full player turns of combat) because he could Instant Death them. The Meganobz only put ONE wound on ONE wraith.

At the end of turn 4, where we called the game because I was similarly elsewhere decimated....

I lost all the MegaNobz (but this wasn't due to Wraiths this was because he charged a unit of Lichguard into combat with them) and I only had the Warboss and the Painboy left. There were 2 Wraiths left.

Without the addition of the Lichguard killing my MegaNobz, maybe I would have been able to come out on top with another game turn or so... but still the Wraiths mowed their way through 20 Boyz, and were essentially unkillable in return.

As Orks, I honestly don't know what my options are to deal with this unit. It's ridiculous. My best ideas are a Morkanaut or a Stompa or Ghazzghul. Shooting them just isn't an option. They'll be in Assault turn 2 pretty much guaranteed. Even then, as my example showed, you can't have this unit exist in a vacuum. The opponent can toss some Lichguard in to deal with Ghazzghul or Meganobz.

Indeed, they do their job wonderfully for their point cost, generally tying up far more of the opponent's army than they cost, or killing them if you let them past the CC boys and into the squishy backfield support, which lets more of their army fight less of your army.

If they had some broken TAC shooting unit on par with serpents, they could just run that and harvests and call it a day in most games.

Luckily they don't, then.

Regardless,
Wraiths = anvil
Lychguard/Praetorians/Flayed Ones = hammer

niv-mizzet wrote:
Indeed, they do their job wonderfully for their point cost, generally tying up far more of the opponent's army than they cost, or killing them if you let them past the CC boys and into the squishy backfield support, which lets more of their army fight less of your army.

If they had some broken TAC shooting unit on par with serpents, they could just run that and harvests and call it a day in most games.

You mean like tomb blades?

My upcoming tournamnet 1850 list will include many units of Grots and of course a Stompa. The worst thing about the Wraiths IMHO is that they are Fearless. Thankfully the Stompa causes all Ork units to be Fearless as well.

So the Wraiths will either be attacking 3 pt grots or a self-sustaining Stompa. Or both.

As for anyone else, I know there are ways to deny Fearless out there. Is that an option anyone is thinking of using?

Well the stompa will be downed by either shooting or scarabs.

Wraiths will have 4 attacks on the charge hitting on 3s and wounding on 2s. If privy to formation special rules, it may have shred as well. That tarpit won't last too long.

We'll see, I'll report what happens.