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Hi Dakka,

might have been already discussed here but i couldnt find a thread. So i have stupid question here and want to know how you guys maybe handle it in your local gaming clubs:

I dont know how GWs rule writing and point balancing( ) works, but seriously if you compare the Cults Codex Purestrains statline and special rules to the ol' tyranid Genestealers you become VERY jealous, especially if you play nids but not Cults..
Cult stealers have, +1 cv save, 5++ , Return to the Shadow and Cult Ambush 14pts
Nids stealers have... wait... 1 Attack less ..yay! 14pts

GW should officially FAQ that these rules transfer to Tyranids aswell (maybe except Cult Ambush) because it actually makes my beloved Genestealers playable again, because... you know im sick of Codex:Flyrant / Codex: Devourer. And im trying to convince my local club to accept it as a house rule or whatever.

what do you think?

I think they should stay seperate.
Pure strains are cult genestealers.
The stealers in a cult are famed for being far more effective than those of a normal hive fleet.

It doesn't help that the nids book is in tatters anyway, which really doesn't help this atall.

They also lose all the upgrade options except scything talons, have no access to a broodlord ...

tradeoffs, man. Its possible they may get reconciled when nids get updated, but lets be fair here. Genestealers are what GSC is about, so they are supposed to be awesome. Which they still aren't. better than normal maybe, but still pretty meh.

If you can get people to houserule it, great. Otherwise, they're different factions. It sucks short term, but long term, we should be seeing updates to a bunch of things. Tyranids dex, among others, is just so outdated at this point.

Jackal wrote:
Pure strains are cult genestealers.
The stealers in a cult are famed for being far more effective than those of a normal hive fleet.

I am not fluff-proof here, but Genestealers that have been created by a Hive fleet ARE Purestrains because they are not polluted by "inferior host DNA".
GSC stealers are pure strains because they have cycled trough a lot of genereations to be considered pure.
I agree on beeing more effective while operating within the cult, so special rules like Cult Ambush are totally fine with me, but statline wise difference that big? No.

Ascalam wrote:They also lose all the upgrade options except scything talons, have no access to a broodlord ...

tradeoffs, man. Its possible they may get reconciled when nids get updated, but lets be fair here. Genestealers are what GSC is about, so they are supposed to be awesome. Which they still aren't. better than normal maybe, but still pretty meh.

Broodlord, well ok. Upgrade options that are not usable, because they are already too expensive for an assault unit that dies to bolter fire. They dont even offer to buy defensive upgrades like Stealth or 5++. Also, i refuse to pay for a +1 ATK upgrade which another same unit has inherently .. >.<

Sorry for this becoming a QQ thread, but then again this ridiculous point difference of.. ZERO between those units really triggered me.

 Ascalam wrote:
They also lose all the upgrade options except scything talons, have no access to a broodlord ...

tradeoffs, man. Its possible they may get reconciled when nids get updated, but lets be fair here. Genestealers are what GSC is about, so they are supposed to be awesome. Which they still aren't. better than normal maybe, but still pretty meh.

Patriarch is basically the Broodlord, and far better.

Hopefully they transfer some of these rules over to Tyranids.

I think if they lowered a lot of the costs for normal genestealers (base cost and upgrades) and updated/included formations that gave them more survivability but kept their slightly inferior stats it could show how they're more mass produced but variable compared to purestrain genestealers. So you can have them tailored to be almost on par with purestrain genestealers with upgrades but you can also leave them dirt cheap and go more horde infiltrators similar to how Acolyte Hybrids are.

 Grimskul wrote:
I think if they lowered a lot of the costs for normal genestealers (base cost and upgrades) and updated/included formations that gave them more survivability but kept their slightly inferior stats it could show how they're more mass produced but variable compared to purestrain genestealers. So you can have them tailored to be almost on par with purestrain genestealers with upgrades but you can also leave them dirt cheap and go more horde infiltrators similar to how Acolyte Hybrids are.

How well did that work for CSM again?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Ascalam wrote:
They also lose all the upgrade options except scything talons, have no access to a broodlord ...

tradeoffs, man. Its possible they may get reconciled when nids get updated, but lets be fair here. Genestealers are what GSC is about, so they are supposed to be awesome. Which they still aren't. better than normal maybe, but still pretty meh.

Patriarch is basically the Broodlord, and far better.

Hopefully they transfer some of these rules over to Tyranids.

Patriarch is a better brood lord, to be sure, but spendier, an hq choice, and only one allowed in your army unless you double up on FOC...

If they give GSC hive tyrants you can have our stealers they and the infiltrate shenanigans are about the only thing that makes GSC different from crappier Guard

The whole Codex: Tyranids needs to be tossed in a fire and redone from scratch, including the model designs and options. Everything from synapse, Instinctual behavior, the hive mind, option selection, offensive power, defensive abilities, unit synergy and design space is borked bottom to top.

Perhaps one of the most infuriating atrocities of the current codex is how paired weapons are treated in the codex - it directly contradicts the base rules for "two close combat weapons" (not that they are all that useful in a ranged weapon centric ruleset).

Genestealers and gaunts got the worst of it, but I don't think any unit really got assistance with the last update (or two).

 Stormonu wrote:
The whole Codex: Tyranids needs to be tossed in a fire and redone from scratch, including the model designs and options. Everything from synapse, Instinctual behavior, the hive mind, option selection, offensive power, defensive abilities, unit synergy and design space is borked bottom to top.

Perhaps one of the most infuriating atrocities of the current codex is how paired weapons are treated in the codex - it directly contradicts the base rules for "two close combat weapons" (not that they are all that useful in a ranged weapon centric ruleset).

Genestealers and gaunts got the worst of it, but I don't think any unit really got assistance with the last update (or two).

I think it's more to do with how the models are designed to look and the fact Tyranids all have 4 arms. Models can usually only receive a 1+ attack no matter how many weapons they have in the rulebook and it's obvious the user is intended to have two close combat weapons. By comparison Tyranid CCW's are designed, modelled and costed to represent one weapons. If you want pairs to equal two weapons expect a point hike.

I'm totally with you, Kremling. I get that GSC need to have their own thing to distinguish them from 'Nids and Guard but that's what Cult Ambush and Return to the Shadows are for. I truly don't understand what the reason was for buffing them to the degree they did.

Consider that cult 'stealers have builtin cover and invul saves. This means they always have some defense against shooting, overwatch, initiative penalties (plus 1 additional attack) and it addresses the main complaint about 'stealers; that genestealers are a pure assault, glass cannon unit with no way to ever reach combat intact. They get all this for 14pts. 'Nid genestealers have none of these abilities yet still cost 14pts

To put it another way cult genestealers have some slight defensive buffs that allow them the chance to function as a glass cannon assault unit. 'Nid 'stealers have none of these buffs and therefore are completely unable to perform their intended function (hence why no one has fielded mass genestealer armies in over a decade).

So what would be an appropriate cost for 'Nid 'stealers that have no defense against shooting, overwatch, and initiative penalties and one less attack? 10pts? 8pts? I have no idea but I know its clearly not 14pts.

By the way I know that the points cost of 'Nid genestealers is something of an artifact of the codex's old age but even when it was released genestealers were too expensive to be worth taking and could not function as an assault unit.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
I think if they lowered a lot of the costs for normal genestealers (base cost and upgrades) and updated/included formations that gave them more survivability but kept their slightly inferior stats it could show how they're more mass produced but variable compared to purestrain genestealers. So you can have them tailored to be almost on par with purestrain genestealers with upgrades but you can also leave them dirt cheap and go more horde infiltrators similar to how Acolyte Hybrids are.

How well did that work for CSM again?

Are you referencing to how CSM lost Ld and had it as an option to gain back with VotLW? Because what I'm proposing involves Tyranid Genestealers getting cheaper for both base cost and in upgrades...so okay?

bhollenb wrote:
I'm totally with you, Kremling. I get that GSC need to have their own thing to distinguish them from 'Nids and Guard but that's what Cult Ambush and Return to the Shadows are for. I truly don't understand what the reason was for buffing them to the degree they did.

Consider that cult 'stealers have builtin cover and invul saves. This means they always have some defense against shooting, overwatch, initiative penalties (plus 1 additional attack) and it addresses the main complaint about 'stealers; that genestealers are a pure assault, glass cannon unit with no way to ever reach combat intact. They get all this for 14pts. 'Nid genestealers have none of these abilities yet still cost 14pts

To put it another way cult genestealers have some slight defensive buffs that allow them the chance to function as a glass cannon assault unit. 'Nid 'stealers have none of these buffs and therefore are completely unable to perform their intended function (hence why no one has fielded mass genestealer armies in over a decade).

So what would be an appropriate cost for 'Nid 'stealers that have no defense against shooting, overwatch, and initiative penalties and one less attack? 10pts? 8pts? I have no idea but I know its clearly not 14pts.

By the way I know that the points cost of 'Nid genestealers is something of an artifact of the codex's old age but even when it was released genestealers were too expensive to be worth taking and could not function as an assault unit.

I would like to point out that they are not bad assault units. There main problem this edition is just how sad assault is in general this edition. Not much for assault is good other then deathstars and super friends.

imo I think Genestealers should be removed from the Nid Dex altogether now and have their full upgrades given to the purestrains in the GS cult. Kinda like how Harlequins use to be a unit in the DE and Eldar codexes before branching off into their own thing. I would presume that the Formations would migrate with them as well, which are basically the only ways people field Genestealers nowadays anyways. Just make it so that they're the only units that are Battlebros with Tyranids in a GS cult and it would all be honky-dory.

 Stormonu wrote:
The whole Codex: Tyranids needs to be tossed in a fire and redone from scratch, including the model designs and options. Everything from synapse, Instinctual behavior, the hive mind, option selection, offensive power, defensive abilities, unit synergy and design space is borked bottom to top.

Perhaps one of the most infuriating atrocities of the current codex is how paired weapons are treated in the codex - it directly contradicts the base rules for "two close combat weapons" (not that they are all that useful in a ranged weapon centric ruleset).

Genestealers and gaunts got the worst of it, but I don't think any unit really got assistance with the last update (or two).

I'm gonna have to contend this one man. Everything important in our book being WS3, I3 is probably the worst. Secondly would be the complete lack of any invuln saves outside the Zoanthropes. Thursday would be that the only AP2 in the whole book comes in the form of a WC2, 18" psychic power.

My bugs are actually my favorite army to play at the moment, but good lord in heaven there are some stupid restrictions in that book.


As far as Genestealers go, make tg even base ones in the nid book 10 points, give em Stealth and the option to be purestrain (0-1 per nids detatchment ) for 14 ppm. Also, take the basic brood lord down in cost ffs. 30 or 35 points is a bit more reasonable for something that might provide an extra WC for one turn before it gets flamered off the board.

There's the First Curse formation. 20 Stealers and Patriarch. Just use a Broodlord model instead. Grab the rule leak pics. And job done.
Well that's what i'm gonna do anyway as not buying any cult.

Nid codex is just silly bad. I'd literally rather play our 5th edition one in 7th edition.

Genestealers are infiltrators in the TC, not assault units. I mean, they can assault obviously, but not as well as an assault unit that is not an infiltrator.

 Jackal wrote:

The stealers in a cult are famed for being far more effective than those of a normal hivefleet

This is the first time I have heard this.

Can you provide a source, please?

 Souleater wrote:

 Jackal wrote:

The stealers in a cult are famed for being far more effective than those of a normal hivefleet

This is the first time I have heard this.

Can you provide a source, please?

https://www.facebook.com/WarhammerTVteam/videos/255950638133255/

Around 10 minutes in.

 eskimo wrote:
There's the First Curse formation. 20 Stealers and Patriarch. Just use a Broodlord model instead. Grab the rule leak pics. And job done.
Well that's what i'm gonna do anyway as not buying any cult.

That is a great idea to field my stealers as a Nid player. Is it legal (= still battleforged) to field 1 Tyranid CAD + 1 GSC Formation? Of course the allied restrictions apply then but that wont matter too much..

 Souleater wrote:

 Jackal wrote:

The stealers in a cult are famed for being far more effective than those of a normal hivefleet

This is the first time I have heard this.

Can you provide a source, please?

It's the GSC Codex - Genestealers evolve & improve when away from a Hive Fleet (and return to the original purple colouration).

Is it pretty bad I don't bat a lash at this? I mean about 20 years ago I would have cried and whaled at this, but now I just chuckle and laugh it off. I guess I am just use to it and expect GW doesn't know how to do a job properly.

It must be pretty embarrassing to be a game designer at GW because you know you can do better, but not allowed and just look foolish in doing your job.

It's just classic GW. Same unit, same name two different codices so one is better than the other also at the same cost. Never makes sense and just like WWE programming we are not suppose to think.

Look how long it took GW to allow Blood Angles and Chaos Space Marines Dreadnaughts to have the same attacks as their equivalents? And to top it off, it's not even Official yet. Still in first draft.

Just understand GW as a company doesn't know what it's doing, feel sorry for the writers not allowed to do their jobs properly because I am sure they are not this incompetent like we complain about them, and just shrug it off. Either accept it or don't. Nothing we can do expect accept it and keep playing or leave and not support this kind of crap that GW wants to put out.

The Tyranid Codex is just bad, we all know this and have known this since it came out nearly 3 years ago now. There is a good reason why GSC Stealers are better and thats because they have to operate indipendantly of the Hive Fleet, they're not just expendable shock troops but an infiltration force.

Tyranid Codex Genestealers need a notably points drop and the addition of at least Stealth, but they should not have all the buffs Purestrains have since they are not supposed to be that good.

Kremling wrote:

 eskimo wrote:
There's the First Curse formation. 20 Stealers and Patriarch. Just use a Broodlord model instead. Grab the rule leak pics. And job done.
Well that's what i'm gonna do anyway as not buying any cult.

That is a great idea to field my stealers as a Nid player. Is it legal (= still battleforged) to field 1 Tyranid CAD + 1 GSC Formation? Of course the allied restrictions apply then but that wont matter too much..

Yes its still battleforged

Tyrannids vs. GSC may run into problems with things that affect enemies, such as Psychic Shriek or whatever it's called, Shadow in the Warp, and (hilariously) the autofiring weapons on Tyrannocites and Sporocysts.

I am completely going to do it though.

 Carnikang wrote:

 Souleater wrote:

 Jackal wrote:

The stealers in a cult are famed for being far more effective than those of a normal hivefleet

This is the first time I have heard this.

Can you provide a source, please?

https://www.facebook.com/WarhammerTVteam/videos/255950638133255/

Around 10 minutes in.

Thank you.

Hilarious...so GSC can beat Tyranid in close combat?

I hope they make Tyranid GS more fighty than these sneaky Cult Stealers.

 Souleater wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

 Souleater wrote:

 Jackal wrote:

The stealers in a cult are famed for being far more effective than those of a normal hivefleet

This is the first time I have heard this.

Can you provide a source, please?

https://www.facebook.com/WarhammerTVteam/videos/255950638133255/

Around 10 minutes in.

Thank you.

Hilarious...so GSC can beat Tyranid in close combat?

I hope they make Tyranid GS more fighty than these sneaky Cult Stealers.

The complete opposite of the existing fluff then?

Purestrains are what you get when you keep your genestealers properly fed.

It's important to keep in mind that GSC genestealers represent much older and more active genestealers than what you'd see from a Hive Fleet. When a hive fleet consumes all the biomass on a planet and moves on, the genestealers on that planet either go into a hibernative state aboard a space hulk or one of the larger tyranid "ships" or they get reabsorbed as biomass. The purestrains they've been alive and acting autonomously for decades.

Stealers needed the buff to actually be worth taking, the ones in the tyranid codex are not. Hopefully the stealers in the tyranid codex get buffed (or points cost lowered) when the nid codex gets updated.