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All right, so correct me if I am wrong but after researching the MK's I came to the following conclusions:

Logistic and maintenance wise, each MK is better than the last.

MK II has the most mobility and most difficult to maintain/repair.

MK IV through VII all have reduced mobility compared to the MK II (super human killing machines having reduced mobility in their armor is saying a lot)
- Each mark has better sensors than the last
- Each mark is more efficient, less exposed elements, etc.
- Better Stealth

*Its noted that the MK II has a fixed helmet yet it can "allow the wearer to see and hear as though not wearing a helmet." So what is the point of the MK IV helmet no longer being fixed?

The Red Scorpions have a Forge and a limited MK IV manufacturing capability.. what stops any chapter creating a forge and making MK II?
Also why would the Scorpions want to manufacture armor that has inferior sensors and inferior stealth to current MK VII?

Broken down the point here is that Marines have had the option of better mobility at the cost of stealth and sensor capability.. but really considering the performance of MK II during the Great Crusade are the sensor abilities an actual advantage to what Orks or Eldar are currently using? Against traitor Marines the tech advantage makes sense, but all the Aliens have just a hard enough time fighting MK II as they would anything else.


Anyway.. back to my topic.. why can't a chapter build a forge and decide we want more mobility on the field and pump out MK II armor? If the Red Scorpions can do it...

Your thoughts?

Quickly adding this as well.. even MK VII is considerably old by 999.M41.
Apart from being treated as relics, if the Scorpions like to use MKVI and I imagine being Marines they are not idiotic enough to disadvantage themselves, I think the differences in MK's are not significant enough to warrant using one over the other from at least a user perspective.
Logistical support for older MK's would be difficult to non-existent requiring said Forge to obtain them, I get that point.

Why would they bother with older marks?
MkIV combined the mobility of MkII with the protection offered by MkIII, making both of those marks obsolete. All other marks since then (MkVI-VIII) have been based on the MkIV template.
Sure, some Chapters still use the older marks for sentimental reasons, because they provide a link to the past, but with newly manufactured suits even that last reason is gone.

A Chapter wanting greater mobility, would want MkVI armour, not MkII.

And besides practical considerations, it is noted that while some Chapters still produce MkIV, the technology and knowledge required for this is very rare due to its great age. With the older, obsolete marks this knowledge is going to be even more obscure, if not totally lost. That is the way things go in the Imperium.
So while some Chapters will have a few old, honoured suits of MkII armour that they like to use for sentimental reasons I don't see them manufacturing new ones. Even if they had the knowledge, they'd probably view it as sacrilege of some sorts.

Depends on the fluff you ascribe to, in the original fluff MkIII was a specialist suit designed for one job at the expense of all others, and as such was explicitly stated to still be used by many modern chapters for that role. The Deathwatch RPG followed the original fluff, giving MkIII heavier frontal limb armour than any other mark.

 Gashrog wrote:
Depends on the fluff you ascribe to, in the original fluff MkIII was a specialist suit designed for one job at the expense of all others, and as such was explicitly stated to still be used by many modern chapters for that role. The Deathwatch RPG followed the original fluff, giving MkIII heavier frontal limb armour than any other mark.

I concur. Iron pattern armour is used for Breaching especially on Voidships. If I recall correctly, the Corvus Pattern, or the beakie armor, was proclaimed to be the best pattern with the exception of the Errant pattern, whose only improvement was the armored gorget.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Why would they bother with older marks?
MkIV combined the mobility of MkII with the protection offered by MkIII, making both of those marks obsolete. All other marks since then (MkVI-VIII) have been based on the MkIV template.

That is logically what I thought, yet the Wiki states MK IV has reduced mobility, you say it combined the mobility of MK and the additional protection of MK III, is there a source for this information?

That being said, it still doesn't answer for me why the Red scorpions are using MK IV when they have access to MK VII.

 Ginsu33 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Why would they bother with older marks?
MkIV combined the mobility of MkII with the protection offered by MkIII, making both of those marks obsolete. All other marks since then (MkVI-VIII) have been based on the MkIV template.

That is logically what I thought, yet the Wiki states MK IV has reduced mobility, you say it combined the mobility of MK and the additional protection of MK III, is there a source for this information?

That being said, it still doesn't answer for me why the Red scorpions are using MK IV when they have access to MK VII.

Maybe they have access to mk vii but not in sufficient quantities? If they get most of their supplies from forge world that can produce mk iv but not mk vii...

FW's don't have capability to produce same stuff. One forgeworld might be able to only produce mk ii and mk iii armours, other mkv iii.

According to Forge World's write-up MkVII lacks some of the more advanced systems of MkIV & VI.

MkIV was developed towards the end of the Great Crusade, utilising the most advanced technology and materials available to the Imperium of man. It became untenable when the Horus Heresy tore the Imperium's lines of supply apart. It was designed to be the pinacle of power armour technology, hence the name.

MkVII was developed towards the end of the Horus Heresy, with the Imperium in flames and what little remained of the Imperium's supply lines in traitor hands. It was designed to be the best they could produce using what little they had left.

MkIV vs MkVII is not equivalent to comparing a bow and arrow to a musket, it's comparing an iPhone to an Android.

 Ginsu33 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Why would they bother with older marks?
MkIV combined the mobility of MkII with the protection offered by MkIII, making both of those marks obsolete. All other marks since then (MkVI-VIII) have been based on the MkIV template.

That is logically what I thought, yet the Wiki states MK IV has reduced mobility, you say it combined the mobility of MK and the additional protection of MK III, is there a source for this information?

That being said, it still doesn't answer for me why the Red scorpions are using MK IV when they have access to MK VII.

MkIV was the pinnacle of power armour design, and no new suits have managed to significantly exceed it. The MkVI focused mainly on increasing efficiency and mobility while MkVII focused mainly on simplifying production. MkVII is not really an upgrade over MkIV in the same way MkIV was over MkIII and II. Overall, MkIV, VI, VII and VIII are all very similar to each other. The most significant difference between MkIV and MkVII is that MkVII is easier to produce because it has less advanced systems. It also has exposed abdominal cabling, whereas MkIV has the abdominal cabling covered but has exposed chest cabling. Both armour marks can be modified to cover the exposed cabling, thus increasing protection, but it may lead to issues with cooling. I think that MkVII is slightly more protective in that it also covers the arm cabling, but I guess that this improvement is minor enough for MkIV to still be used, especially with its more advanced systems. I don't think it has ever been elaborated why the Red Scorpions make new suits of MkIV, but the fact they give them to their veterans likely means that is a mark of prestige for them, probably because this suit is more difficult to make than a MkVII suit.
Detailed information on the development and capabilities of each mark of armour is in the FW Horus Heresy books.

Also, never trust the Wiki. It is unreliable. Half of what is on the Wiki is made-up fan fiction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gashrog wrote:
According to Forge World's write-up MkVII lacks some of the more advanced systems of MkIV & VI.

MkIV was developed towards the end of the Great Crusade, utilising the most advanced technology and materials available to the Imperium of man. It became untenable when the Horus Heresy tore the Imperium's lines of supply apart. It was designed to be the pinacle of power armour technology, hence the name.

MkVII was developed towards the end of the Horus Heresy, with the Imperium in flames and what little remained of the Imperium's supply lines in traitor hands. It was designed to be the best they could produce using what little they had left.

MkIV vs MkVII is not equivalent to comparing a bow and arrow to a musket, it's comparing an iPhone to an Android.

Hah, looks I got ninja'd

 Gashrog wrote:
According to Forge World's write-up MkVII lacks some of the more advanced systems of MkIV & VI.

MkIV was developed towards the end of the Great Crusade, utilising the most advanced technology and materials available to the Imperium of man. It became untenable when the Horus Heresy tore the Imperium's lines of supply apart. It was designed to be the pinacle of power armour technology, hence the name.

MkVII was developed towards the end of the Horus Heresy, with the Imperium in flames and what little remained of the Imperium's supply lines in traitor hands. It was designed to be the best they could produce using what little they had left.

MkIV vs MkVII is not equivalent to comparing a bow and arrow to a musket, it's comparing an iPhone to an Android.

Mark VI and VII are similar but inferior to Mark IV, but still much better than Mark V

Mk3 is just a normal suit of mk2 with extra heavy armour bolted on. It was built to be tough. And only tough.

It also puts far higher stress on its systems though I do believe such as servo moters and powered systems.

I'm theory you could make a new model by up armouring a normal mark suit.
But then again it has those issues of being the utter limit of armours capability and more difficult to keep operating without issues.

I was out of the hobby and Betrayal got me back into. (That and life not being crazy). Mk IV has always been a favorite. Just, neither an affordable (Forge World Red Scorpions) or good looking/affordable (the metal through the ages mode) option until now.

I reconcile it with...my Chapter was cut off from the Imperium for an extended period of time. It lost a great deal of its ships and armories in the process. But while cut off in <random sector whose name I haven't thought of yet> they either came across a forge that produced mark IV or they found a heresy era armory where a large amount of the armor was kept. They've thus supplemented their supply with the MK IV. But now, even after having regained contact with the Imperium, tradition and slow supplies have meant that they still use a larger portion of MK IV than other armor. They even have a few suits of MK III that they give to their "Deathwing" company since they have fewer suits of Terminator armor compared to other Dark Angel successor chapters.

In the end...I just like the armor. Not sure why people would be against it.

 Lusall wrote:
I was out of the hobby and Betrayal got me back into. (That and life not being crazy). Mk IV has always been a favorite. Just, neither an affordable (Forge World Red Scorpions) or good looking/affordable (the metal through the ages mode) option until now.

I reconcile it with...my Chapter was cut off from the Imperium for an extended period of time. It lost a great deal of its ships and armories in the process. But while cut off in <random sector whose name I haven't thought of yet> they either came across a forge that produced mark IV or they found a heresy era armory where a large amount of the armor was kept. They've thus supplemented their supply with the MK IV. But now, even after having regained contact with the Imperium, tradition and slow supplies have meant that they still use a larger portion of MK IV than other armor. They even have a few suits of MK III that they give to their "Deathwing" company since they have fewer suits of Terminator armor compared to other Dark Angel successor chapters.

In the end...I just like the armor. Not sure why people would be against it.

I don't think anyone is against it.
There are plenty of possible fluff justifications for a Chapter using MkIV and even MkIII and II in M41 (my own Chapter has a few suits as well), it is just newly manufacturing suits that seems very unlikely. And imho, a homebrew Chapter that can newly manufacture rare old armour marks is very much in danger of straying into special snowflake mary sue territory. That is why I would advise against including such fluff. But using old suits is fine.

 jhe90 wrote:
Mk3 is just a normal suit of mk2 with extra heavy armour bolted on.

According to the original fluff and the Deathwatch RPG (also supposedly the 7th edition collectors edition SM codex armour cards - though I've not seen them) it wasn't standard Mk2, it had reduced rear armour to compensate for the weight of the frontal plates - hence part of its unsuitability for general use.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
And imho, a homebrew Chapter that can newly manufacture rare old armour marks is very much in danger of straying into special snowflake mary sue territory. That is why I would advise against including such fluff. But using old suits is fine.

Realistically, there's no way modern chapters are going to be able to use old suits without the ability to manufacture them, they would have ceased to exist millennia ago without spare parts: "This my great-great-grandfather's axe, it's had 17 new heads and 43 new handles"

 Gashrog wrote:


Realistically, there's no way modern chapters are going to be able to use old suits without the ability to manufacture them, they would have ceased to exist millennia ago without spare parts: "This my great-great-grandfather's axe, it's had 17 new heads and 43 new handles"

Over finite time it is possible. Perhaps the chapter does not have the ability to completely recreate an entire suit but can make some of the components. That way they can keep most of the suits working for a long period of time. If they started out with over 1000 suits and continue to scavenge for old ones of the same type it could be done.

It is the same with antique cars. Some parts can be easily fabricated new of identical quality. Some parts can be fabricated new but they are slightly inferior to the old ones. Some parts cannot be recreated with existing tooling, and thus if that part breaks an original needs to be found to replace it. With some cars having a production run of a million, it is possible to have 10,000 of them running for a very long time, so long as A. the impossible to fabricate parts do not break very often and B. those parts that do break and cannot be fabricated can be scavenged.

 Gashrog wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
And imho, a homebrew Chapter that can newly manufacture rare old armour marks is very much in danger of straying into special snowflake mary sue territory. That is why I would advise against including such fluff. But using old suits is fine.

Realistically, there's no way modern chapters are going to be able to use old suits without the ability to manufacture them, they would have ceased to exist millennia ago without spare parts: "This my great-great-grandfather's axe, it's had 17 new heads and 43 new handles"

That is not true.
If anything, the Imperium is masterful at keeping old stuff running. It is not at all uncommon for Space Marines to have some relics dating back to the Horus Heresy or even before. Being able to maintain something however, is not the same thing as being able to produce something new. I can maintain my bike without trouble, if needed I could even make some makeshift replacement parts for it. But making an entire new bike from scratch? I can't do that, I have neither the tools nor knowledge for something like that. That goes for a huge lot of technology in the Imperium too. Of course it won't work eternally, one day a part will break that I can't make (like the frame for example), but with proper maintenance I will still be able to use the same bike for a very very very long time until that day even though I know nothing of making bikes.

There's always the old "Recovered from a Space Hulk" excuse.

Space Marines board and clear a Space Hulk of hostiles, or find it drifting. Upon exploration they discover the remnants of a lost chapter or parts of a Legion forgotten by time. There are 50 Space Marine bodies, all of which are wearing damaged armor. The suits are recovered and cross-cannibalized to make 20 functioning suits of Mk(X) armor, which are used for ceremonial purposes or given as rewards to particular marines.

Rule of cool.
Mkiv armour looks more intimidating so <insert chapter here> makes all their armour 'look' like Mkiv regardless of its actual designation.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Of course it won't work eternally, one day a part will break that I can't make (like the frame for example)

Exactly. Marines don't die of old age, they die of injury, and given their amazing recuperative powers that's generally catastrophic injury. The Horus Heresy was almost eleven millenia ago, a suit dating back to that time could expect to have changed owner anywhere from a fifty to a thousand times, in the majority of cases because the armour was unable to prevent catastrophic damage being inflicted to the wearer - which will generally mean catastrophic damage to at least one part of the armour.

For my "custom homebrewed special snowflake chapter" the super short fluff of them is they woke up on their cruiser with no clear memory or records of what happened and possibly went missing sometime around the heresy or a relatively short time after.
Due to the lack of any official resupply and forge world support they have been primarily working off of the initial suits of armor found on their cruiser and scavenge parts off power armor they come across or cannibalize parts from unfixable suits.

 Gashrog wrote:
in the majority of cases because the armour was unable to prevent catastrophic damage being inflicted to the wearer - which will generally mean catastrophic damage to at least one part of the armour.

I'd guess Chapters often have more arms, legs and shoulder pads in excellent condition than torsos and helmets from old suits. The torso parts in particular will probably look the worse for wear after the fifth time the user was killed by a lascannon hit.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Gashrog wrote:
in the majority of cases because the armour was unable to prevent catastrophic damage being inflicted to the wearer - which will generally mean catastrophic damage to at least one part of the armour.

I'd guess Chapters often have more arms, legs and shoulder pads in excellent condition than torsos and helmets from old suits. The torso parts in particular will probably look the worse for wear after the fifth time the user was killed by a lascannon hit.

This is my headcanon for why squad leaders don't wear helmets.

The previous wearer of sergeant's armor was shot in the head. By a cannon.

nareik wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:

 Gashrog wrote:
in the majority of cases because the armour was unable to prevent catastrophic damage being inflicted to the wearer - which will generally mean catastrophic damage to at least one part of the armour.

I'd guess Chapters often have more arms, legs and shoulder pads in excellent condition than torsos and helmets from old suits. The torso parts in particular will probably look the worse for wear after the fifth time the user was killed by a lascannon hit.

This is my headcanon for why squad leaders don't wear helmets.

The previous wearer of sergeant's armor was shot in the head. By a cannon.

This is now my new headcannon. Thanks

"So how did you become the sergeant?"
"Oh, the previous serg got a hair cut..."
"Uh... what?"

And who says that there aren't forge worlds that are able to produce only one kind of power armor? After the Heresy Innovation is almost non existent and change is considered bad.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
And who says that there aren't forge worlds that are able to produce only one kind of power armor?

There probably is, just as not all Forge Worlds are able to produce all tanks (tank guns), aircraft and so on. But Mk VII was supposed to be somewhat simplified and streamlined so the IoM could produce enough - I'd suspect the design was intended to be distributed to everyone who needs the ability to produce power armor. So if a FW is able to only produce one Mk it's probably the Mk VII.

Most Marines don't have a choice when it comes to their armour - it's been passed down to them from the last Marine that wore the suit, and over 10,000 years, pieces get lost or damaged beyond repair.

In addition, the suits that the Imperium can still make consistently (Mk VI, Mk VII usually) take a long time to manufacture, so lost suits can't be replaced in their full very easily.

It's easy to find Marines with full suits of Mk VI and Mk VII. A full Mk IV or V suit is very hard indeed, and anything below that is usually kept as a treasured relic of the Chapter it belongs to, and is only issued to Commanders.

G.A

A few more advanced may retain limitied say mkIV production but those would be hard to come by In larger numbers or amounts at once. Say 1-2 mk iv suits but a simpler mark might have 100 ready to ship.

Mk3 production might be maintained somewhere, same for 2.
But rare and same as Iv only under specalist not mass production.

For every 100 made normal marks, they might make one specialist mark suit and even then, probbly reserved for a close chapter or firsts founding like the few terminaitor suits that get made on forgeworlds advanced and Lucky ernough.

What if a chapter stumbles across a cache of MKII and a forge with the capability to make more?

The Ultramarines had 250,000 Marines within their Legion by the time of the Heresy, and with the shortages of MK IV I suspect they had the capabilities to maintain their MK II's. So it's not much of a stretch if an Imperial Survey team uncover an old Ultramarine stash with working forge for MK II.

If a Chapter had a forge like that, and due to logistical issues couldn't maintain their VII's.. there you go, current chapter using MK II.

 Ginsu33 wrote:
If a Chapter had a forge like that, and due to logistical issues couldn't maintain their VII's.. there you go, current chapter using MK II.

Yeah, and I'm the Queen of China

The chances of that happening is roughly on the same level as finding an intact and working STC Template, which is nearly zero.

The Ultramarines would have most likely moved to the Mk V and Mk VI during the Heresy - while older Marks would have been easier to maintain back then, they were still being phased out in favour of "better" armour, at least in the case for the battlefields of the Horus Heresy; Mk III and II wouldn't be quite as useful as they might be in the 41st millennium.

It's certainly not impossible, but to find such a forge in the first place, let alone intact and capable of functioning, is a tall order.

I should say that quite a few later founding Chapters can be holding onto a lot of suits of "Relic Armour"; the Blood Ravens are a prime example, having an armoury crammed with many gifts from the Imperial Fists, Inquisition grade weapons, ancient Imperial treasures, and even a dangerously large amount of Chaotic artefacts. Chapters like that who side a lot with the Explorator Fleets like the Blood Ravens do are more likely to hold onto a numerous amount of old Marks, either recovered one at a time on deserted Imperial worlds or gifted by the finest artisans within the Machine Cult. I think this is a much more plausible idea than finding somewhere that can manufacture old suits of Power Armour - you'd certainly have enough suits to make a Chapter specific unit, if your Chapter is more lax on the restrictions of the Codex Astartes.

G.A

The original article about power armour development says that "Many maintain that [mark 2 armour] is the most efficient of all Space Marine armours, although its overlapping plates are notoriously difficult to repair" and "As the most visually brutal of all Marine armour, [Mark 3] is sometimes used as a basic uniform for ceremonial guards."

Mark 5 is rare in the 41st millennium, due to being broken up after the heresy for spares and for being a bad reminder of the Heresy.

So, all you need is a Master of the Forge who likes the look of Mark 2 and 3, and that's all the "justification" you need.

Also, perhaps more importantly, mark 2 and 3 armours are holy relics, from the times when the Emperor and His Primarchs moved among humanity and the Legions, and mark 6 is a remembrance of the moment when the tide of Chaos was thrown back from the holy walls of Earth.. Taken against that, what matter that it takes more maintenance to look after them, or they're a little less agile on the battlefield?

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
The original article about power armour development says that "Many maintain that [mark 2 armour] is the most efficient of all Space Marine armours, although its overlapping plates are notoriously difficult to repair" and "As the most visually brutal of all Marine armour, [Mark 3] is sometimes used as a basic uniform for ceremonial guards."

Mark 5 is rare in the 41st millennium, due to being broken up after the heresy for spares and for being a bad reminder of the Heresy.

So, all you need is a Master of the Forge who likes the look of Mark 2 and 3, and that's all the "justification" you need.

You missed the next bit - "It [Mk 2 Armour] can still be found in operational use - in extremely limited numbers - amongst several Space Marine Chapters"

Mk III will also never be found in large numbers since it was never intended to replace Crusade Armour, plus "While successful in the conditions it was designed for, the armour is too clumsy and uncomfortable for conventional fighting". That mostly limits it to ceremonial use within the Chapter, and the occasional close quarter assault by Chapters like the Imperial Fists and the Salamanders who have enough of these suits to organise such a formation.

Even if a Master of the Forge could make Mk II's and III's consistently, a single suit of Armour can take decades to finish; it's much more efficient to replace parts in existing suits than build new ones, even if the end result may not be as sturdy as a spanking new suit of Crusade or Iron Armour.