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2016/08/24 08:36:01
Subject: Re:Adding more diversity to the 40K universe.
Plumbumbarum wrote: I have nothing against a female guard or an upgrade sprue with heads, why not. Don't think it will happen, why not ask mr. Roundtree though, they seem to listen now.
...Who?
2016/08/24 08:41:44
Subject: Re:Adding more diversity to the 40K universe.
From the initial Age of Sigmar news thread, when its "feature" list was first confirmed:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
It's like a train wreck. But one made from two circus trains colliding.
A collosal, terrible, flaming, hysterical train wreck with burning clowns running around spraying it with seltzer bottles while ring masters cry out how everything is fine and we should all come in while the dancing elephants lurch around leaving trails of blood behind them.
How could I look away?
2016/08/24 08:44:09
Subject: Re:Adding more diversity to the 40K universe.
Wikipedia wrote:A warrior monk is a concept found in various cultures of a person who combines aspects of being a monk, such as deep religious devotion and an ascetic lifestyle, with being a warrior, trained to engage in violent conflict.
Examples include:
Sōhei, a type of Japanese warrior.
Knights Templar, Knights Hospitallers and Teutonic Knights, warriors during the Crusades.
Shaolin Monastery, a Chinese monastery renowned for monks who were experts in the martial arts.
The description of the ideal soldier in the manual of the First Earth Battalion.
Nagas, a type of shaivite monks once served under Moghul commanders.
Do you know what is funny about those? It's that none of them had long mustache as a characteristic.
So? That wasn't my point. The point was that "warrior monk" can reference a vast variety of different cultures and aren't mutually exclusive to other traits such as physical appearance.
And… so… what's your point here? That monks and nuns should be separated? But that having explicitly shamanistic monks is perfectly fine?
My point is we already have a word for a female monk, and that's a nun. We already have female monks, they're called something different, but they exist, so it's impossible to expand "monk" to include women, when women can already become de facto monks. Hence my comment about one gender called Phillip, unless you're campaigning for all things to be called the same regardless of gender involvement, in which case then I guess we can dispense with one or the other.
Azreal13 wrote: The stereotypical ancient martial arts master is invariably a monk, as most of the martial arts originated in monasteries.
That's not the question I asked. Is Mai Pei a monk?
I'll ask him next time I see him.
So, if I sum up your post:
- You don't offer any kind of hint about what makes the White Scars look or feel like monks, in any way. Neither from their look, nor from their fluff. You just say that warrior monk can take very different appearance, which, while true (WFB Warrior Priests looks nothing like Shaolin monks) is completely unrelated to my argument.
- You play semantics instead of addressing the fact that you have no problem with expanding the definition of monks as large as you want it to be, but you consider that one, and as far as I can tell only one, characteristic of traditional European monks MUST remain intact: the fact that they organize in single-gender communities. You just can't accept a chapter of Space Marines that has both “monk” and “nuns” together because… reasons. Reasons that I invite you to expand upon.
If you want to post stuff that is irrelevant to the arguments I am making, please go ahead, but also please just mention it instead of making it sounds like you are answering me.
Gen.Steiner wrote: All Space Marines, regardless of Chapter, live monastic lives that are highly regimented, include hefty amounts of prayer or meditation, and belong to cult brotherhoods. They're all monks.
Space Wolves live monastic lives of bombastic bragging, and have hefty amounts of prayers that consists of over-eating and drinking booze. Give me a break. That's nonsense and you know it.
What you are describing is merely the “average” marine chapter. But tons of them have deviation from slight to really, really major from this average.
Plumbumbarum wrote: So, you would censor all rape out of the art? What about car crashes? Beatings? War? Death? Cancer? Abductions? Anything traumatic really?
In case you didn't notice it, there are no graphic depiction of rape in 40k. That's for a reason.
And generally speaking, the universe is so over-the-top and excessive in its horror that I really don't think much people in countries that aren't at war will find anything that reminds them of their actual struggle. People don't die of cancer in 40k, they die of the terrible Nurgle plague and rise up as zombies!
Not you, then. Are you afraid that some Commissar is going to get you? If not, it's not mirroring something that you have to deal with IRL. It's something that other people had to deal with a long time ago.
If you were currently living under constant fear of being executed by the Soviets, I don't think you would enjoy Commissars .
Plumbumbarum wrote: Sure it is political, which doesn't mean you have to constantly over-analyse and demand changes for every bit that offends your sensibilities. If everyone did that, there would be no 40k because it's offensive all around.
Yeah, I agree, GW should choose the people they are okay with being offensive too. I certainly never meant that nothing should be offensive to anyone. If 40k is offensive to religious bigots, for instance, I am perfectly fine with this.
I really don't know why so many people seem to use that argument you put forward of “not being offensive to anyone” when actually I never heard anyone say that anything like that. It's a weird strawman.
Plumbumbarum wrote: No they're not just canvas. They all follow and believe in the emperor of mankind, they are all male, all warrior monks. The basic idea is warrior monk, then comes the flavour that in some cases takes it further from that reference but it's 40k and not entirely coherent heh, still warrior monks though.
Following the Emperor of Mankind is literally EVERYONE in the whole Imperium. That… doesn't really set them apart from a blank canvas. The fact they are all male is, well, the ridiculous arbitrary restriction that I want removed to make them a better blank canvas. And the warrior monk part is totally inexistent in the description, background, look, etc, of so many Chapters that constantly putting it forward is becoming tiresome.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2016/08/24 10:54:16
Subject: Adding more diversity to the 40K universe.
Plumbumbarum wrote: So, you would censor all rape out of the art? What about car crashes? Beatings? War? Death? Cancer? Abductions? Anything traumatic really?
In case you didn't notice it, there are no graphic depiction of rape in 40k. That's for a reason.
And generally speaking, the universe is so over-the-top and excessive in its horror that I really don't think much people in countries that aren't at war will find anything that reminds them of their actual struggle. People don't die of cancer in 40k, they die of the terrible Nurgle plague and rise up as zombies!
As I wrote in http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/700334.page#8857374 Actually it's quite strange that their is no rule concerning infection by "genestealer kiss". Rogue Trader was very explicit about the way Genestealers were, well, using their tongues for stealing human genes to replacing by their.
"This perhaps is the greatest horror the Genestealers bring, as they can infect almost any lifeform with a "kiss," implanting some of their own genetic material into the host and taking complete control of its reproductive system."
"The Genestealer will find a suitable host and hypnotise them into passivity using an effect induced with its eyes. The Genestealer then thrusts its long, whip-like tongue (which also serves as an ovipositor) into the body of the host, where it deposits its DNA in the form of a type of virus that infects the somatic and germ line cells of the host."
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Genestealer Isn't this fitting the definition of rape using stunning effect with pregnancy result?
( article in french http://leplus.nouvelobs.com/contribution/925105-une-victime-de-viol-qui-ne-se-debat-pas-ca-ne-veut-pas-dire-qu-elle-consent.html )
the inspiring scenes with facehugger in Alien franchise movie are quite explicit of unwanted forced penetration for reproductive purpose...
The Genestealers are nothing else than ethnic cleansing dedicated troops
Manchu wrote: Eldar culture is highly ritualistic. Their battle armor surely reflects this. It makes sense to me that, as posted above, a male Eldar who joined the Banshee Path would conceivably cross-dress, as it were, to honor Jain Zar.
Gen.Steiner wrote: All Space Marines, regardless of Chapter, live monastic lives that are highly regimented, include hefty amounts of prayer or meditation, and belong to cult brotherhoods. They're all monks.
Space Wolves live monastic lives of bombastic bragging, and have hefty amounts of prayers that consists of over-eating and drinking booze. Give me a break. That's nonsense and you know it.
What you are describing is merely the “average” marine chapter. But tons of them have deviation from slight to really, really major from this average.
Er, no, it's not nonsense, it's the official canon background. Space Marines, even Space Wolves, are monastic cult brotherhoods. So were the Knights Templar, but that didn't stop them becoming unbelievably wealthy, and lots of real life monks in the Middle Ages brewed alcohol for their own consumption as well as for sale and trade.
Of course there are deviations, but every chapter either has a Fortress Monastery or a space-ship equivalent. They all have Chaplains (the Space Wolves, in fact, have a variety of - wait for it - Priests!) which are there to ensure their adherence to the chapter cult or Imperial Creed (or both).
They're monks. They're all monks. It says it so many times in the background I'm rather confused as to why you don't think they are.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/24 11:15:52
Gen.Steiner wrote: even Space Wolves, are monastic cult brotherhoods. So were the Knights Templar,
Actually for SW, if think much more about Jomsvikings brotherhood
The Saga of the Jomsvikings relates that the Jomsvikings were highly selective in deciding whom to admit to their order. Membership was restricted to men of proven valor between 18 and 50 (with the exception of a boy named Vagn Åkesson, who defeated Sigvaldi Strut-Haraldsson in single combat at the age of 12). In order to gain admission, prospective members were required to prove themselves with a feat of strength, often taking the form of a ritual duel, or holmgang, with a Jomsviking.
Once admitted, the Jomsvikings required adherence to a strict code of conduct in order to instill a sense of military discipline among its members. Any violation of these rules could be punished with immediate expulsion from the order. Each Jomsviking was bound to defend his brothers, as well as to avenge their deaths if necessary. He was forbidden to speak ill of his fellows or to quarrel with them. Blood feuds between members were to be mediated by Jomsviking officers. Jomsvikings were forbidden to show fear or to flee in the face of an enemy of equal or inferior strength, though orderly retreat in the face of vastly outnumbering forces appears to have been acceptable. All spoils of battle were to be equally distributed among the entire brotherhood. No Jomsviking was permitted to be absent from Jomsborg for more than three days without the permission of the brotherhood. No women or children were allowed within the fortress walls, and none were to be taken captive. It is unclear, however, whether members were forbidden marriage or liaisons with women outside the walls. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jomsvikings
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/08/24 11:37:10
2016/08/24 11:27:17
Subject: Adding more diversity to the 40K universe.
So - a religious order of male warriors who didn't admit women and adhered to a strict and ritualised code?
SOUNDS LIKE WARRIOR MONKS TO ME!
well
No women or children were allowed within the fortress walls, and none were to be taken captive. but
It is unclear, however, whether members were forbidden marriage or liaisons with women outside the walls. pagan Vikings with chastity vows sounds strange...
However for Christian knight orders there were few exception:
The Orders of Santiago that authorised Reconquista crusaders to have a wife and children
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Order_of_Saint_James_of_the_Sword https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_Santiago + Teutonic Order, during its split between Catholic & Lutherian obedience, the protestant members took wife. For a time some German Protestant Princes, fearing the Turk invasion wanted the Teutonic to remain in the bounder fortress but asked for a quota of (married) protestant
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teutonic_Order Today, it welcomes both male or female members. The religious ones can be monks or nuns BUT are separated while non-religious one (aka Honorary Knights) maybe married.
Look also the Pope bodyguard regiment (aka Swiss guard) their faith have to be confirmed but their native town priest and by a 5 hours interview.
They swear devotion to God, Pope and Cardinals like a knight order but while hellebardier/gardist and corporal (enlisted for 2 years) must live in barracks WITHOUT any woman, non-commissioned officer & officer have their own apartment and can get married.
Strangely this is exactly the opposite of the early Teutonic Knight among with basic milician & sergeants (grey tunics infantry) as colonist for newly conquered Prussia were supposed to have large family to increase quickly the population in the commandry while officers (white coat knights) took chastity vows.
In many fantasy world Paladin order doesn't required celibacy. just a following code and obedience of the master.
Actually 1st Paladins, were just King (then Emperor) Charlemage most loyal lords and elite guard (link Alexander the Great elite cavalry)
Anyway I just wanted to point the difference a religion between Templars (or Hospitalier,..) that were Christian and the Jomsvikings that were Asatru (or Odinist pagan) but still likely to fight in the name of a Christian Emperor or King if paid for.
Just like SW fight for the same Imperium as the Dark Angels.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/24 12:46:57
2016/08/24 12:40:46
Subject: Re:Adding more diversity to the 40K universe.
I am not denying that SoB have almost no gear, I am not denying they need a update to give them more gear, I am pointing out that a lot of the weapons they currently have are shared with Space Marines. SoB haven't had a real codex update since the turn of the century the new release was basically a copy and paste with some fixes that were needed and a few new toys though not enough. Realistically SoB are on the edge of joining Squats. But with that said if they ever did get a new codex and some plastic models you would see a lot of this complaining disappear and a lot fewer arguments for "We need Female Space Marines"
Literally SoB share Bolt pistols, Bolters, Storm bolters, Heavy bolters, Flamers, heavy flamers, Meltas, Multi-Meltas, Plasma Guns, Power Armor, Rhinos and a couple of other things with SMs thats is almost ALL of their gear that they share. It just so happens that SMs have more stuff then any other faction by a significant margin.
I am not denying that SoB have almost no gear, I am not denying they need a update to give them more gear, I am pointing out that a lot of the weapons they currently have are shared with Space Marines. SoB haven't had a real codex update since the turn of the century the new release was basically a copy and paste with some fixes that were needed and a few new toys though not enough. Realistically SoB are on the edge of joining Squats. But with that said if they ever did get a new codex and some plastic models you would see a lot of this complaining disappear and a lot fewer arguments for "We need Female Space Marines"
Literally SoB share Bolt pistols, Bolters, Storm bolters, Heavy bolters, Flamers, heavy flamers, Meltas, Multi-Meltas, Plasma Guns, Power Armor, Rhinos and a couple of other things with SMs thats is almost ALL of their gear that they share. It just so happens that SMs have more stuff then any other faction by a significant margin.
Out of curiosity, how many of those things do Sisters of Battle share with the Imperial Guard? Because by my count, the answer is "most of them."
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/24 12:45:53
2016/08/24 12:56:26
Subject: Re:Adding more diversity to the 40K universe.
Out of curiosity, how many of those things do Sisters of Battle share with the Imperial Guard? Because by my count, the answer is "most of them."
Many because of their history.
Before age of aposthasy Imperium clergy had standard army (imperial guard regiment), then they were compelled not to age any "man-at-arm" therfore, they just disband their (male) soldiers and gave the hardware to nuns.
Because they have fewer troops, they had to protect them with better armor managed to do it since their was only few power-armor to be acquired.
Since they did not have access to SM genetic modification, the standard SM suit was impossible to use so a new suit was to be create from nothing.
In such case, the best was to give it a female ergonomy (and make sure nobody could suspect a man to be hidden inside so boob plate was mandatory)
2016/08/24 13:04:33
Subject: Re:Adding more diversity to the 40K universe.
Out of curiosity, how many of those things do Sisters of Battle share with the Imperial Guard? Because by my count, the answer is "most of them."
Many because of their history.
Before age of aposthasy Imperium clergy had standard army (imperial guard regiment), then they were compelled not to age any "man-at-arm" therfore, they just disband their (male) soldiers and gave the hardware to nuns.
Because they have fewer troops, they had to protect them with better armor managed to do it since their was only few power-armor to be acquired.
Since they did not have access to SM genetic modification, the standard SM suit was impossible to use so a new suit was to be create from nothing.
In such case, the best was to give it a female ergonomy (and make sure nobody could suspect a man to be hidden inside so boob plate was mandatory)
Oh.
I thought I was making a counterpoint to someone who was arguing that Sisters of Battle and Space Marines are actually very similar because of their equipment.
Apparently that was not even being discussed.
I think I mixed up the thread I was posting in with another.
My bad, sorry.
2016/08/24 13:20:30
Subject: Adding more diversity to the 40K universe.
Well if SW are based on Jomsvikings - Nordic warrior monks - rather than Christian warrior monks, it functionally has no bearing on Space Wolves vs any other Space Marines. A warrior monk by any other name would smell as sweet.
2016/08/24 13:26:43
Subject: Adding more diversity to the 40K universe.
Well if SW are based on Jomsvikings - Nordic warrior monks - rather than Christian warrior monks, it functionally has no bearing on Space Wolves vs any other Space Marines. A warrior monk by any other name would smell as sweet.
I'm kinda wondering how this is even relevant to the possibility of female Space Marines, since everything I read says that members might have intimate relationships with women, but none of it says women were monks themselves.
2016/08/24 13:28:34
Subject: Adding more diversity to the 40K universe.
Wikipedia wrote:A warrior monk is a concept found in various cultures of a person who combines aspects of being a monk, such as deep religious devotion and an ascetic lifestyle, with being a warrior, trained to engage in violent conflict.
Examples include:
Sōhei, a type of Japanese warrior.
Knights Templar, Knights Hospitallers and Teutonic Knights, warriors during the Crusades.
Shaolin Monastery, a Chinese monastery renowned for monks who were experts in the martial arts.
The description of the ideal soldier in the manual of the First Earth Battalion.
Nagas, a type of shaivite monks once served under Moghul commanders.
Do you know what is funny about those? It's that none of them had long mustache as a characteristic.
So? That wasn't my point. The point was that "warrior monk" can reference a vast variety of different cultures and aren't mutually exclusive to other traits such as physical appearance.
And… so… what's your point here? That monks and nuns should be separated? But that having explicitly shamanistic monks is perfectly fine?
My point is we already have a word for a female monk, and that's a nun. We already have female monks, they're called something different, but they exist, so it's impossible to expand "monk" to include women, when women can already become de facto monks. Hence my comment about one gender called Phillip, unless you're campaigning for all things to be called the same regardless of gender involvement, in which case then I guess we can dispense with one or the other.
Azreal13 wrote: The stereotypical ancient martial arts master is invariably a monk, as most of the martial arts originated in monasteries.
That's not the question I asked. Is Mai Pei a monk?
I'll ask him next time I see him.
So, if I sum up your post:
Here's a hint, don't sum up other people's posts, they've said what they meant to say, you rephrasing them to better straw man their arguments is a waste of time
- You don't offer any kind of hint about what makes the White Scars look or feel like monks, in any way. Neither from their look, nor from their fluff. You just say that warrior monk can take very different appearance, which, while true (WFB Warrior Priests looks nothing like Shaolin monks) is completely unrelated to my argument.
Your point was a picture of a White Scar didn't look very monk like, how does showing that a warrior monk can look like anything any other human can look like unrelated to your argument?
- You play semantics instead of addressing the fact that you have no problem with expanding the definition of monks as large as you want it to be, but you consider that one, and as far as I can tell only one, characteristic of traditional European monks MUST remain intact: the fact that they organize in single-gender communities. You just can't accept a chapter of Space Marines that has both “monk” and “nuns” together because… reasons. Reasons that I invite you to expand upon.
I don't need to expand on anything, monks are men, nuns are women, both historically and within the totally fictional construct of the 40K universe. The fact that you can't accept that diversity doesn't require the intermingling of the two concepts into one genderless order because reasons. Reasons that I really don't care to hear any more about.
If you want to post stuff that is irrelevant to the arguments I am making, please go ahead, but also please just mention it instead of making it sounds like you are answering me.
Sounds to me you don't understand your own argument if you think my responses were irrelevant.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/24 13:29:06
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
SolarCross wrote: There is so much speciesist anthropomorphocentric bigotry in this thread I think I might vomit. "Hey let's make all the aliens look human, because da humies iz da bestest". No! let's have some real diversity, as in aliens that actually look alien.40k only has the tyranids as genuinely alien aliens, that's speciesist anthropomorphic bigotry right there.
In solidarity with our brain slug overlords.
To my knowledge, the Eldar and Humans look alike because they were both created by the same race who got lazy and re-used parts from one in the other.
Maybe there is some in universe reason, but the main reason is because Eldar are basically elves in SPACE!!!
2016/08/24 14:12:47
Subject: Adding more diversity to the 40K universe.
At this point, this thread has clearly shown in its constant back-and-forth arguments, that statement "more gender diversity in wh40k would be beneficial to everyone and would clearly increase sales" is false and needs at least an extensive marketing study to prove. Most opinions in this thread are personal belief at most, not accounting in any way for huge cultural diversity amongst the current playerbase.
Also, the complete highjacking of this thread in favour of endless gender disputes over "we need more nonhumanoid xenos" or even "we need more playstyle specific factions" disputes clearly shows, that there is huge confusion about what is really drawing anyone to any particular game and what the word "diversity" means depending on cultural and geographical context.
And if I were GW CEO myself, I would stay away from any drastic change in gender lore and product range, simply because this is such a nest of vipers and very, very slippery ground for a GLOBAL company. Current state clearly sells well enough.
[And just on a tiny little margin: apart from Banshees and Guardians mentioned at first pages of this thread, Eldars have also a female Shining Spear torso. And the fact that there is no female torsos in other aspects is not caused by lore or any other mysoginistic reasons, but because sculpts of all other aspects were designed in times of metal casting, which imposed huge restrictions on possible poses. Especially models with armour holding a two-handed gun were much more difficult to design for old process with a pair of breasts. You can clearly see this difficulty in Necromunda Esher gang, where sculptors had to use any and all possible accents on the model, to make it distinctively feminine. Eldars, because of their light body frame and ritualistic helmets/armour patterns, have very few opportunities other than boobs to accent female models. And as said, plastic Harlequins are 50/50, because there are no such restrictions and all Harlequins look somehow genderless apart from two small bumps on the chest.]
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/24 14:14:57
2016/08/24 14:27:12
Subject: Adding more diversity to the 40K universe.
Gen.Steiner wrote: Of course there are deviations, but every chapter either has a Fortress Monastery or a space-ship equivalent. They all have Chaplains (the Space Wolves, in fact, have a variety of - wait for it - Priests!) which are there to ensure their adherence to the chapter cult or Imperial Creed (or both).
So, they are monks because… they have an head quarter whose generic name sound religious and they have religious officers.
Damn, so many IG regiments are monks too!
Seriously, what do you even? Do you believe that every priest is a monk, or that priest only cater to monks, or what?
You should give that whole page a long, hard read :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_chaplain Military chaplains and 40k chaplains are not monks. They are priests.
Also, give that page a read too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monk Notice how while monk was originally someone taking specific vows in Christianity, it was expended to other religious groups that shared, well, asceticism. The catholic (and anglican apparently) vows are : “vows of obedience, poverty, and chastity.” Asceticism, obedience, …sounds like the Space Wolves? Nope. Poverty, sounds like the Ultramarines? LOLNOPE NEED MOAR BLING!
The Space Marines are all religious (like pretty much everyone in the Imperium) warriors. That doesn't, by any stretch of the imagination, make them monks. Well, they also do all share in common being secluded from the rest of the “secular” world. Oh, wait, no, scratch that, forgot about the Salamanders and the Ultramarines!
Kriegspiel wrote: Actually it's quite strange that their is no rule concerning infection by "genestealer kiss".
I am going to assume you are not serious about that whole message.
I thought I was making a counterpoint to someone who was arguing that Sisters of Battle and Space Marines are actually very similar because of their equipment.
Apparently that was not even being discussed.
I think I mixed up the thread I was posting in with another.
My bad, sorry.
Can't tell if sarcastic or not ^^.
Azreal13 wrote: Your point was a picture of a White Scar didn't look very monk like, how does showing that a warrior monk can look like anything any other human can look like unrelated to your argument?
My point was that White Scars are not related in any meaningful way to monks, and I put the picture to illustrate one of the many aspects in which they don't. I explicitly mentioned the other aspects in the very same post.
I am going to sum up again, because you like it so much. I wrote that White Scars aren't like monk in either their background or their visual aspect. I illustrated the visual aspect part. You answered by a picture of a character that ISN'T a monk (as far as we know, and we have no reason to suspect otherwise). And that was supposed to prove… what? If the White Scars looked like this :
then they would definitely evokes real-world monks, though not European ones. As a matter of fact, they do NOT look like this. If the White Scars had a background that had them take vows of asceticism, and seclude themselves into monasteries, they would be reminiscent of monks. But they have a more (explicitly, iirc) shamanistic view of religion, and rather than seclude themselves away, they are more the “ride in the wind” kind.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2016/08/24 14:31:22
Subject: Adding more diversity to the 40K universe.
Gen.Steiner wrote: Of course there are deviations, but every chapter either has a Fortress Monastery or a space-ship equivalent. They all have Chaplains (the Space Wolves, in fact, have a variety of - wait for it - Priests!) which are there to ensure their adherence to the chapter cult or Imperial Creed (or both).
So, they are monks because… they have an head quarter whose generic name sound religious and they have religious officers.
Damn, so many IG regiments are monks too!
Seriously, what do you even? Do you believe that every priest is a monk, or that priest only cater to monks, or what?
You should give that whole page a long, hard read :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_chaplain Military chaplains and 40k chaplains are not monks. They are priests.
Also, give that page a read too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monk Notice how while monk was originally someone taking specific vows in Christianity, it was expended to other religious groups that shared, well, asceticism. The catholic (and anglican apparently) vows are : “vows of obedience, poverty, and chastity.” Asceticism, obedience, …sounds like the Space Wolves? Nope. Poverty, sounds like the Ultramarines? LOLNOPE NEED MOAR BLING!
The Space Marines are all religious (like pretty much everyone in the Imperium) warriors. That doesn't, by any stretch of the imagination, make them monks. Well, they also do all share in common being secluded from the rest of the “secular” world. Oh, wait, no, scratch that, forgot about the Salamanders and the Ultramarines!
Kriegspiel wrote: Actually it's quite strange that their is no rule concerning infection by "genestealer kiss".
I am going to assume you are not serious about that whole message.
I thought I was making a counterpoint to someone who was arguing that Sisters of Battle and Space Marines are actually very similar because of their equipment.
Apparently that was not even being discussed.
I think I mixed up the thread I was posting in with another.
My bad, sorry.
Can't tell if sarcastic or not ^^.
Azreal13 wrote: Your point was a picture of a White Scar didn't look very monk like, how does showing that a warrior monk can look like anything any other human can look like unrelated to your argument?
My point was that White Scars are not related in any meaningful way to monks, and I put the picture to illustrate one of the many aspects in which they don't. I explicitly mentioned the other aspects in the very same post.
I am going to sum up again, because you like it so much. I wrote that White Scars aren't like monk in either their background or their visual aspect. I illustrated the visual aspect part. You answered by a picture of a character that ISN'T a monk (as far as we konow, and we have no reason to suspect otherwise). And that was supposed to prove… what? If the White Scars looked like this :
then they would definitely evokes real-world monks, though not European ones. As a matter of fact, they do NOT look like this. If the White Scars had a background that had them take vows of asceticism, and seclude themselves into monasteries, they would be reminiscent of monks. But they have a more (explicitly, iirc) shamanistic view of religion, and rather than seclude themselves away, they are more the “ride in the wind” kind.
You're just hung up on what your idea of a monk should be, once you've put aside your prejudices you'll find the whole thing makes a lot more sense.
This is also a warrior monk..
Important to remember the warrior
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/24 14:32:49
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Ambiguously so on purpose. I'm not actually sure what the topic was.
My point was that White Scars are not related in any meaningful way to monks, and I put the picture to illustrate one of the many aspects in which they don't. I explicitly mentioned the other aspects in the very same post.
I am going to sum up again, because you like it so much. I wrote that White Scars aren't like monk in either their background or their visual aspect. I illustrated the visual aspect part. You answered by a picture of a character that ISN'T a monk (as far as we know, and we have no reason to suspect otherwise). And that was supposed to prove… what? If the White Scars looked like this :
then they would definitely evokes real-world monks, though not European ones. As a matter of fact, they do NOT look like this. If the White Scars had a background that had them take vows of asceticism, and seclude themselves into monasteries, they would be reminiscent of monks. But they have a more (explicitly, iirc) shamanistic view of religion, and rather than seclude themselves away, they are more the “ride in the wind” kind.
...That's a Diablo 3 character.
2016/08/24 14:36:08
Subject: Adding more diversity to the 40K universe.
nou wrote: Current state clearly sells well enough.
I think I might've choked on my drink if I'd been sipping it at this part.
Have you seen their financials in recent years?
There's absolutely no justification or evidence that any perceived lack of diversity has had a negative impact on their sales, nor that an increase would have a positive one.
The change of edition and subsequent apparent decline in popularity would much more closely track any negative financial performance, although it's important to note they are still making a profit, and the introduction of some female models would likely do zero to reverse the declining trend.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
What does, in this image, sets the character apart from a simple warrior? Well, mostly our knowledge that his general look, and especially the insignia on his torso, is very very reminiscent of an actual warrior monk order. Just like the Diablo 3 monk above is really recognizable as a monk so easily because it is reminiscent of another very famous order of warrior monks. The White Scar look is reminiscent of… a Mongol warrior that is not a monk.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2016/08/24 14:40:06
Subject: Adding more diversity to the 40K universe.
nou wrote: Current state clearly sells well enough.
I think I might've choked on my drink if I'd been sipping it at this part.
Have you seen their financials in recent years?
There's absolutely no justification or evidence that any perceived lack of diversity has had a negative impact on their sales, nor that an increase would have a positive one.
The change of edition and subsequent apparent decline in popularity would much more closely track any negative financial performance, although it's important to note they are still making a profit, and the introduction of some female models would likely do zero to reverse the declining trend.
And if they actually did market research of any kind they might begin to have an answer on whether more female miniatures would improve sales at all.
Though generally I think that if they started having, you know, sales? Like when they temporarily decrease the price of some products to encourage more people to buy it for the limited time of the sale? That would probably increase their sales volume and profits more than changing what their models look like.
What does, in this image, sets the character apart from a simple warrior? Well, mostly our knowledge that his general look, and especially the insignia on his torso, is very very reminiscent of an actual warrior monk order. Just like the Diablo 3 monk above is really recognizable as a monk so easily because it is reminiscent of another very famous order of warrior monks. The White Scar look is reminiscent of… a Mongol warrior that is not a monk.
I dunno. I look at that knight and think two things.
1. He's a crusader on his way to Jerusalem in one of the Crusades.
2. He hasn't figured out that his full plate armor will protect him as much as that shield will, so he's still using a shield and a longsword instead of a two-handed weapon.
Edit: Wait, that's a monk? How can you tell?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/08/24 14:44:12
2016/08/24 14:50:22
Subject: Adding more diversity to the 40K universe.
nou wrote: Current state clearly sells well enough.
I think I might've choked on my drink if I'd been sipping it at this part.
Have you seen their financials in recent years?
There's absolutely no justification or evidence that any perceived lack of diversity has had a negative impact on their sales, nor that an increase would have a positive one.
The change of edition and subsequent apparent decline in popularity would much more closely track any negative financial performance, although it's important to note they are still making a profit, and the introduction of some female models would likely do zero to reverse the declining trend.
@Pouncey - As Azreal wrote: do you seriously think, that gender diversity or lack of it has more influence on sales than general trend of entertainment industry towards simple board games, computer games, mobile entertainment and so on? My statement is written clearly in a gender context so please, do read with assumption, that I'm not an utter idiot. Compare complexity of 2nd ed WH40k, RPG games from '90 (both classic and computer) classic vs modern x-com games etc… And then tell me, if my "sells well enough" is still hilarious. Decline in sales after 6th ed has more to do with market shifting to mobile entertainment than it has with the actual wh40k ruleset (as clearly most of GW consumer base do not even play the game, just collect the models and play not more than couple of times a year if ever). There is a poll here, clearly showing a spectrum of frequency of playing within dakaa comunity, and dakka comunity itself groups most involved hobbyists...
2016/08/24 14:56:59
Subject: Adding more diversity to the 40K universe.
What does, in this image, sets the character apart from a simple warrior? Well, mostly our knowledge that his general look, and especially the insignia on his torso, is very very reminiscent of an actual warrior monk order. Just like the Diablo 3 monk above is really recognizable as a monk so easily because it is reminiscent of another very famous order of warrior monks. The White Scar look is reminiscent of… a Mongol warrior that is not a monk.
He's a Templar, Templars are warrior monks.
But sure, nobody can be a monk unless they look like what you think a monk can look like, correct? Everyone should be a visual representation of what they believe, as set down by.. you?
The fact that the creators of the thing have said what that thing is should be the end of the argument, but apparently not.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
But sure, nobody can be a monk unless they look like what you think a monk can look like, correct? Everyone should be a visual representation of what they believe, as set down by.. you?
Who are you arguing against? A version of me that exists only in your head?
I just wrote that we identify him as a warrior monk because he looks just like the Templar and we know that Templars are warrior monks. Now you tell me about how I am wrong for not admitting he is a warrior monk? I can't even.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
2016/08/24 15:09:02
Subject: Adding more diversity to the 40K universe.
nou wrote: but because sculpts of all other aspects were designed in times of metal casting, which imposed huge restrictions on possible poses. Especially models with armour holding a two-handed gun were much more difficult to design for old process with a pair of breasts. You can clearly see this difficulty in Necromunda Esher gang, where sculptors had to use any and all possible accents on the model, to make it distinctively feminine. Eldars, because of their light body frame and ritualistic helmets/armour patterns, have very few opportunities other than boobs to accent female models. And as said, plastic Harlequins are 50/50, because there are no such restrictions and all Harlequins look somehow genderless apart from two small bumps on the chest.]
So instead of Esher ugly armored silicon implant
what about using nice tinny tits?
perhaps because of 40K "epic" body proportions compared to Infinity (and sometimes even to their "Inquisitor" counterpart) due to the fact GW minis (basic Orks or IG) shall pass the "50 minis travel to & back from GW local retailer all mixed in shoebox" test
(just look how 2nd hand mini are shown on e-bay)
Anyway the big Rambo like torso of the Catachan are as big as the Esher ones and changing "meat to milk" was not a problem in old time
I also liked the "Imperial Army" female trooper Vaskez of Rogue Trader
gun at hips and helmet on belt "for the picture" was a good way to show blond middle-left hair and 90C breasts avoiding "female commissar" meme
Why don't we get such mini anymore?
Anyway if GW doesn't do it for the Tau, Wargame Exclusive does:
http://wargameexclusive.com/product-category/greater-good/ just has Prodos does for Space Marines oups sorry Crusaders
(see http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/698524.page#8847810 )
In fact actually none of mini I bought for W40K since the beginning of this year are GW ones,
Sorry for GW, since I wanted only to increase my human armies and was fed up with this male only conversion because metallic SoB are to hard to convert, I found what I wanted elsewhere.
50 minis bought for W40K universe and not a single GW one!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/08/24 15:30:08
2016/08/24 15:10:11
Subject: Adding more diversity to the 40K universe.
nou wrote: Current state clearly sells well enough.
I think I might've choked on my drink if I'd been sipping it at this part.
Have you seen their financials in recent years?
There's absolutely no justification or evidence that any perceived lack of diversity has had a negative impact on their sales, nor that an increase would have a positive one.
The change of edition and subsequent apparent decline in popularity would much more closely track any negative financial performance, although it's important to note they are still making a profit, and the introduction of some female models would likely do zero to reverse the declining trend.
@Pouncey - As Azreal wrote: do you seriously think, that gender diversity or lack of it has more influence on sales than general trend of entertainment industry towards simple board games, computer games, mobile entertainment and so on? My statement is written clearly in a gender context so please, do read with assumption, that I'm not an utter idiot. Compare complexity of 2nd ed WH40k, RPG games from '90 (both classic and computer) classic vs modern x-com games etc… And then tell me, if my "sells well enough" is still hilarious. Decline in sales after 6th ed has more to do with market shifting to mobile entertainment than it has with the actual wh40k ruleset (as clearly most of GW consumer base do not even play the game, just collect the models and play not more than couple of times a year if ever). There is a poll here, clearly showing a spectrum of frequency of playing within dakaa comunity, and dakka comunity itself groups most involved hobbyists...
I know that even Call of Duty lets you play a female character in some of their more recent games.
I know that even Halo has female Spartans now.
I know that the most popular subscription-based MMORPG in history has lasted 12 years and counting, still has millions of people paying to play it, and when it first came out in 2004 it altered pre-existing lore that said things like Night Elf men couldn't be hunters, priests or warriors and Night Elf women couldn't be Druids in favor of more gender equality.
I know that if you take the same game and make two different advertisements for it, one with women in the ad and one without women in the ad, women who see the ad with women in it are more likely to buy the game.
I know that eventually the tabletop wargaming hobby is going to stop being a boys club and have to include women, and a lot of women introduced to 40k have their first question being, "Where are all the women?"
I know that the Assassin's Creed game that offered the ability to make a custom character for online play suffered harsh criticism for not being designed to let you play a female character if you wanted to.
I know that one of the things 40k is founded upon is making your own custom army to your own specifications.
So no, I'm not seeing that there's no market for more female characters in gaming or even 40k in particular.
.
the new release was basically a copy and paste with some fixes that were needed and a few new toys though not enough. Realistically 
