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Well i made a post about what got me back into the hobby, i painted a battle wagon WW2 german color scheme, which then inspired me to start a guard army, this is the results.

Further i would like the comunity to discuss what is and is not acceptable when it comes to imagery and symbolism, i read the rules and there is no rules saying one can not paint there models historically accurate, its actualy promoted within the bolt action community.
I am not the first person to take inspiration from world war 2 and this forum has a few examples of it, my thread was locked instantly yet others remain open.
What is acceptable, mods get in here i have had iron cross cleared already but what else?

I imagine swastikas and other explicit nazi imagery would be prohibited (depending on the context of the model-historical etc) but I can't see why a colour scheme should cause any issues... Did you put anything on there that could be seen as a bit dodgy?

If your question is 'can I use the swastika or death's head emblem without pissing my opponents off' the answer is 'no'.

 ph34r wrote:
If your question is 'can I use the swastika or death's head emblem without pissing my opponents off' the answer is 'no'.

Yep If you have to stop and ask your self then probably a hard no.

Why not take inspiration through what already exists in 40k. might find some useful decals and iconography that may suit your purposes to get something closer to WW2 Nazis.

or do something different like a parody. i recall some one did $ signs that reference some song or movie iirc.

but if your intent is to glorify it.. well prepare your self for backlash cause its coming one way or another.

The mod told you what the problem was and I can't agree more.

If you want to drag that stuff into a setting it has nothing to do with people will react like that.

 Megaknob wrote:
no rules saying one can not paint there models historically accurate, its actualy promoted within the bolt action community.

In Bolt Action, the game is simulating the setting of 1930s-40s Earth. Nazis wearing Nazi uniforms would be historically accurate.

In Warhammer 40k, the game is simulating the setting of the year ~29,000 - 42,000. Anyone wearing a Nazi uniform would be historically INACCURATE, because the knowledge and significance of such symbols was lost some time in the previous thirty-thousand years. Such a thing could not 'realistically' occur in Warhammer 40k.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Did you put anything on there that could be seen as a bit dodgy?

Yep. OP's previous thread, with their SS orks (complete with giant not-at-all-historically-accurate SS logo): https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/776810.page

Yeah I just looked at the thread.. The title itself is probably the kicker for me... And the emblem on the dozer is clearly the schutzstaffel rune.. Personally I agree that the German iconography of the time does have a striking aesthetic appeal, but you have to put that aside due to the actions and connotations of that organisation.

You could easily keep the colour scheme.. I've seen plenty of death korps done in German colours, but shoot for different iconography. The iron cross should clearly be OK as this was in use by the prussian empire long before nazi Germany. You could also use deaths heads as these were also used by prussia, but keep away from the specific schutzstaffel deaths head which has its own distinct look.

As a counter-point, there are heaps of people who wouldn't give a gak what iconography you went with.

As a counter-counter point, fake Iconography is more interesting, and let’s people know you chose not to glorify a terrible ideology, but that you imply your duders are bad guys.

Sure but the previous statements make it out that if you showed up with (gasp) an SS logo on a tank that everyone would think you were a hate-monger, racist, bla bla bla and that you'd never get a game...and that's not remotely accurate.

 Elbows wrote:
Sure but the previous statements make it out that if you showed up with (gasp) an SS logo on a tank that everyone would think you were a hate-monger, racist, bla bla bla and that you'd never get a game...and that's not remotely accurate.

Honestly wouldn't bat an eye if some one showed up with bolt action, fow or even konflict 47 army with full historical painting and iconography as that is what was intended of those games. but it would be a bit weird if some one was running a bunch of 40k, or infinity models with actual swastikas.

Personally i wouldn't play someone running an actual swastika filled 40k or non "historical" army. alternative or parody army, i have no problems with. though start zieg hailing and il probably pack up and leave.

Sure, and I agree...but it's been presented here as some black/white qualifier and I felt the need to speak up and say it's not necessarily so.

 Elbows wrote:
Sure but the previous statements make it out that if you showed up with (gasp) an SS logo on a tank that everyone would think you were a hate-monger, racist, bla bla bla and that you'd never get a game...and that's not remotely accurate.

It's more accurate than you think, unless you happen to play with a bunch of racists who embrace Nazi images.

Perhaps to you, but not anywhere I've ever gamed. No one would care about an SS painted on the front of an Ork vehicle. We'd more likely judge you on your actual behaviour.

 Elbows wrote:
Perhaps to you, but not anywhere I've ever gamed. No one would care about an SS painted on the front of an Ork vehicle. We'd more likely judge you on your actual behaviour.

If painting Nazi symbols on your space orks is not "actual behavior" that you should be judged by then I have no idea what is. If you think that's in any way acceptable behavior then you have a serious problem.

That's fine, you can assume I have a problem. I wouldn't do it myself, but I wouldn't demonize someone for doing it. If anything, that kind of behaviour is the bigger problem - that's why I'm speaking up.

 Elbows wrote:
Sure, and I agree...but it's been presented here as some black/white qualifier and I felt the need to speak up and say it's not necessarily so.

So brave.

 Elbows wrote:
That's fine, you can assume I have a problem. I wouldn't do it myself, but I wouldn't demonize someone for doing it. If anything, that kind of behaviour is the bigger problem - that's why I'm speaking up.

If you think that shunning TFGs who think it's ok to put Nazi symbols on their space orks is worse than the people bringing the Nazi symbols then you have a serous problem. People who bring Nazi images, outside of an extremely narrow context where they would be historically accurate*, should be demonized. They're terrible ing people. They should be banned from the community and blacklisted from every organized event.

*Even then I'm going to be extremely skeptical of their motives, but that flimsy excuse doesn't apply here.

In the extremely narrow case of say, having an SS Squad in a game set in WW2 I would say nazi imagery is acceptable. However in any other circumstance it's not, and in this case it definitely shouldn't be here.

So what do you say to the guys who aren't history or military history nuts? And you say "Oh I see you have an SS logo on your ork truck" and their response is "yeah, thought it looked cool". Some 17 year old kid digging decals out of his 1:35 Tamiya model kits, etc. They're, by default, horrible people?

Do you equally condemn the numerous resin manufacturers of WW2 lookalike Orks for 40K? There are entire armies made from WW2 lookalike Orks - vehicles etc. But if they don't have a random Nazi emblem on them, they're fine and we assume they're all non-party-compliant Wehrmacht?

How about German marksmanship Eagles, it's been the same (even in their current military) but would have appeared on Nazi uniforms as well. Same goes for the Iron Cross, etc.

Why does the emblem matter so much to you? What if someone had an army painted 100% in black SS uniforms with red bands...but no emblems/icons? Are they excluded from being horrible people? What if you ran a Finnish inspired force with their classic horizontally aligned blue swastika - and idiots trash talked the guy who had Finnish ancestry? Is that fair? (because in this instance we can assume most people are too stupid to know their history regarding the swastika)

We're not talking about someone showing up with an army painted with swastikas on every shoulder pad, mumbling about the master race. You seem to think there's no difference though. That's unfortunate.

This has no place here on these boards, in this hobby, or civilized society, nor does anyone who defends it.

If that's how you read that response...I pity you. Not discussing something isn't a decent way to get anywhere.

 Elbows wrote:
So what do you say to the guys who aren't history or military history nuts? And you say "Oh I see you have an SS logo on your ork truck" and their response is "yeah, thought it looked cool". Some 17 year old kid digging decals out of his 1:35 Tamiya model kits, etc. They're, by default, horrible people?

I am extremely doubtful that anyone is going to put blatant Nazi images on their models without knowing what they are. In the unlikely event that someone put an SS logo on their model without realizing what it was then ok, fine, I'd give them a chance. If they were genuinely ignorant then they'll be horrified to realize that they're displaying Nazi images, put the models away, and repaint them as soon as possible. If, once they know that it's a Nazi symbol, they defend the use of it then they are TFG and should be removed.

And in any case this hypothetical scenario is not relevant to the OP. They deliberately put a SS logo on their model, knowing exactly what it was, and then proudly presented it as "here's my SS orks".

Do you equally condemn the numerous resin manufacturers of WW2 lookalike Orks for 40K?

Borrowing details from equipment used by Nazis is not the same as using the symbols claimed and promoted by the Nazis.

Why does the emblem matter so much to you?

Because it's a symbol used by Nazis to say "I am a Nazi". Why is this so hard to understand?

What if someone had an army painted 100% in black SS uniforms with red bands...but no emblems/icons?

TFG and banned. Making an SS army and trying to pretend that it's ok because you didn't technically put any Nazi symbols on it is still making an SS army.

What if you ran a Finnish inspired force with their classic horizontally aligned blue swastika - and idiots trash talked the guy who had Finnish ancestry?

Not the same because it is not a Nazi symbol. It's probably in poor taste, and I suspect the people thinking "lol, here's my excuse to use swastikas" vastly outnumber people genuinely using it as a Finnish thing, but it's not a Nazi symbol.

We're not talking about someone showing up with an army painted with swastikas on every shoulder pad, mumbling about the master race. You seem to think there's no difference though. That's unfortunate.

That's exactly what we're talking about here. This is not someone using WWII German tank kits as LRBT proxies, the OP's model is proudly displaying a giant SS icon. The Nazi element is essential to its concept and promoted up front, and the OP makes no secret of the fact that they thought it would be cool to make SS orks. I honestly have no idea why you are defending this behavior.

No, we stated above we're not discussing someone showing up with a full army of dedicated Nazi miniatures - we're discussing what is acceptable in gaming. We're discussing the post of the Ork battlewagon which was immediately blocked/stopped/banned, etc.

You said it yourself in your response - it's possible to end up with stuff you think is cool that isn't. So there is no black and white "you're a fething horrible person!" nonsense necessary. How many SS divisions were there with random logos on the black shield. It's entirely feasible someone (and more so as we get further and further from WW2) has no experience of what they are. Perhaps they find an old decal sheet or they stumble onto an icon on google.

There's one which is a simple "key", one which is a clenched fist, one which is some kind of Christan fish looking logo, etc. All kinds of things a younger person could easily stumble upon and think "damn that's cool". By your statement they'd be judged and executed, lol.

Heck there are SS division dice available for games like Bolt Action, etc. It's entirely feasible somebody would show up to game with them because those are the dice they own (whether that's in good taste is up to you). There's a lot more grey area than you guys present. Shoving your head in the sands isn't a healthy response.

The response to the OP should be simple: Nazi insignia is tasteless and may offend some other gamers. That's it. Freedom of speech and expression is still a thing. Regardless of how tasteless it might be. I would also approve of a shop or TO refusing to allow it (as that's their store or their product), etc.

But banning/block/etc. before learning what is what is not solving anything.

The "burn them all" mantra being shown here is dangerous as well - it's that kind of vehemency that leads to people being abused for running Finnish emblems, etc. Because people don't bother to learn what is what, when it's all just demonized. That's a dangerous precedent to set. You're better off expressing what you dislike and why you dislike it - and offering opinions/solutions rather than immediate judgment. That doesn't benefit anyone.

 Elbows wrote:
No, we stated above we're not discussing someone showing up with a full army of dedicated Nazi miniatures - we're discussing what is acceptable in gaming. We're discussing the post of the Ork battlewagon which was immediately blocked/stopped/banned, etc.

How is that not equivalent? It only wasn't a full army because it was a single miniature intended to be followed by a full army. I have no idea why you think "they didn't finish building a whole army yet" is a compelling point to make.

You said it yourself in your response - it's possible to end up with stuff you think is cool that isn't. So there is no black and white "you're a fething horrible person!" nonsense necessary. How many SS divisions were there with random logos on the black shield. It's entirely feasible someone (and more so as we get further and further from WW2) has no experience of what they are. Perhaps they find an old decal sheet or they stumble onto an icon on google.

Oh FFS, the OP explicitly stated "I made a SS battle wagon". Please do not pretend that anyone was ignorant of what the SS symbol meant.

By your statement they'd be judged and executed, lol.

No, I already explicitly stated that someone who used a Nazi logo without realizing the significance would not be banned if their reaction was "oh god, I had no idea" followed by removing the logo. You know, what any decent person would do in that situation.

Freedom of speech and expression is still a thing.

Freedom of speech guarantees that the government, at least in the US, will not imprison you for using a Nazi symbol. That is all. In no way does it mean that you won't, or shouldn't, be banned from a community for using Nazi symbols. Please do not appeal to concepts which do not apply here.

You're making my points for me though.

Head in the sand doesn't help anybody. I've never been to a store where somebody could show up with an SS logo on an Ork battlewagon and be kicked out the store, banned from the local facebook group, etc. You said it was common - I'm saying it's not. Maybe...actually talk to someone? Give them advice rather than condemning them? I know it's a stretch to consider for the vaunted Peregrine, but you'll get there.

 Elbows wrote:
Give them advice rather than condemning them?

If someone thinks that proudly displaying Nazi icons is acceptable behavior then the only advice I can give them is "GTFO Nazi trash", and that's putting it politely so I don't get a forum ban. You claim not to be a Nazi apologist, but here you are stubbornly insisting that we need to politely talk to Nazis and give them advice instead of condemning them.

How am I Nazi apologist? Or is that a simple and base insult (like the other couple of jackasses above) because you don't like discussing peoples freedoms/opinions?

The Nazi imagery isn't the subject of discussion here. It could be any other imagery that you or anyone else finds offensive. The same logic applies to all imagery. If you see a peaked hood do you immediately assume the person is a KKK follower? If you had Japanese inspired imagery from WW2 would you immediately assume the people supported Kamikaze attacks or the violations Japan carried out in China? What about IRA symbols used by gamers in the UK, etc?

You're missing the core concept here. You're jumping to assumptions (as you do almost every time you respond to me) and making blunt statements. You stated categorically that someone would be immediately villified for having one (or more) offensive images on their models. I said that's not the case.

You (and some others) somehow construed that to be me being a Nazi sympathizer? That's a bizarre logic (and I use that term loosely) leap.

In your last response you pointed out your all-encompassing bias. "uses Nazi imagery = Nazi trash". How about politely talking to people who likely aren't Nazis rather than assuming they are? Granted you guys assume I'm some kind of Nazi apologist so I suspect calmly discussing something isn't at the higher end of your interests.

You've said it yourself - why not approach them first and find out why they're running offensive imagery? Would that not be the thing a normal thinking adult would do? Why is this a difficult concept to understand? You'll know pretty quick if they think it's a cool image (because perhaps they play WW2 games and think it just looks cool) or if they're actually a fan of national socialism? I would think it would be pretty obvious. Then you can make your own decision rather than your bizarre witch hunt (we've had those in this country before and they didn't turn out too well).

If you assumed I'm defending some KKK gak bird showing up with a swastika-laden army (and tattoos to boot) you're wrong - plain and simple. Maybe, just maybe - you actually do some research before condemning a person? I appreciate that proposal scares people here into name-calling though. That's fun.

 Elbows wrote:
How am I Nazi apologist?

Because you stubbornly insist that we need to "discuss" things with Nazis instead of telling them to GTFO because they are Nazis, and because you consider kicking Nazis out of a community worse than proudly displaying Nazi images in that community.

The Nazi imagery isn't the subject of discussion here. It could be any other imagery that you or anyone else finds offensive.

Lolwut? A thread started by someone complaining about their Nazi thread being locked is not about Nazi images? Please do not try to derail this into a discussion of things unrelated to Nazi images.

Also, if you can't tell the difference between Nazis and the IRA you have serious problems.

How about politely talking to people who likely aren't Nazis rather than assuming they are?

If you willingly and proudly display Nazi images* you are a Nazi, or at least so close to being a Nazi that I don't give a about nitpicking the difference. A person who is not a Nazi is not going to start a thread about "here's my SS orks, I thought it would be cool". And if they somehow accidentally used a Nazi symbol without realizing it is a Nazi symbol the conversation would be extremely brief and result in the person removing the Nazi symbol as quickly as possible. And, again, the OP knew they were using a SS icon. Using an SS icon is the entire point of their model. Please stop trying to distract from this point with hypothetical scenarios that have nothing to do with the situation.

*Outside of, possibly, a very narrow historical context where they are required for accuracy. No 40k army falls into this category.