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I’ve started putting citadel paints in dropper bottles. In the example below o have not used much wildrider red and it all fits in a much smaller dropper bottle. If they started to sell in dropper bottles they would either have to sell half filed Vallejo Sized bottles or start giving you more paint!!
The contents of the bottle is listed on the label in ml, literally nobody should be surprised by this. IIRC Citadel is 12ml and Vallejo 18ml.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Azreal13 wrote: The contents of the bottle is listed on the label in ml, literally nobody should be surprised by this. IIRC Citadel is 12ml and Vallejo 18ml.
Yeah I know but this just really brought it home for me. Although they have some great colours they are so expensive for what they are
I think the thing with gw paint that is often forgotten is that you can buy it in most high streets (you don't need to wait for delivery, or have to pay p&p that is almost the same price as a pot) and every paint has easy to use highlights and shades with plenty of support to use them from posters, apps, paint splatters, YouTube vids etc. You pay more for them as they are so easy to pick up and use well. No other range that I'm aware of has that level of convenience and support alongside it. And that's before you remember that they are made by a multinational FTSE 200 business with shareholders to pay.
I am not good at math, ... citadel comes out to like 0.38ml per $1 ? right? someone doublecheck me on that!
And if 1 Fluid Ounce has 28.4131 Milliliters that means:
0.38 ( amount of ml for $1) times (56.8262 ml for 2Oz) = $ 21.60 for 2Oz Citadel paint
Pro 2Oz is $9.50 and Citadel paint at 2Oz is $21.60
Now the question is, IF MY MATH IS CORRECT, Does citadel paint really has THAT much more pigment concentration to cost twice more than pro paint? Or you are paying for the convenience?
And next question then is - does pro acrylic paint perfectly reasonable for miniature work?
And is craft version good enough?
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/07/23 20:06:12
No, in my experience nothing you find outside specialized minature paint ranges is even remotely viable for miniatures. The stuff you linked barely cuts it for crude terrain.
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
Citadel paints are typically thick and I did wonder if that was part of the value GW perceived in them but they do not tell you to thin the top the constituency of a V paint. And for the consistency I find the colour definition in Vallejo and GSW as good as GW.
GW I think have a larger collection paints developed for their expression of the worlds they have created and I don’t think we should write them off but I just couldn’t believe it when I got the whole thing in that little pot haha
It depends. There are levels within craft paints. I find Delta Ceramcoat to easily be the best of them, and great for terrain projects. I think they could probably be used for basic-level miniature painting in a pinch if handled properly. I've airbrushed Delta C successfully too. That's what I used on all the AT terrain in my gallery.
I wouldn't even attempt that with the extra cheapo stuff. Someone once described that stuff as like trying to paint with greasy pudding, and that describes it almost perfectly.
I really never worry about GW paint being more than others.
Assuming you thin your paints you actually get more than 12ml of paint in the jar. Vallejo is cheaper than Citadel for more paint but in relation to all other aspects of 40k the paint is such a minor cost thing I don't even worry about it.
Back in 3rd edition I had an Eldar army I had painted with HoK Color Shift paint. At the time it was 3 times more expensive than an equal amount of Citadel paint. The army looked unique and different as a result but it was also a lot more expensive from a painting standpoint.
Most of my terrain painting involves rattle can sprays and 2" or 3" brushes for drybrush work.
lord_blackfang wrote: No, in my experience nothing you find outside specialized minature paint ranges is even remotely viable for miniatures. The stuff you linked barely cuts it for crude terrain.
Well that is provably not true.
Tempera that is used for Palekh is more than enough for plastic mini
Oil paint is more than enough for miniature work as well.
High pigmented acrylics my friend uses for Palekh and traditional Icons is good enough for mini.
I think I will paint a mini with crayola range just to prove the point.
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jivardi wrote: I really never worry about GW paint being more than others.
Assuming you thin your paints you actually get more than 12ml of paint in the jar. Vallejo is cheaper than Citadel for more paint but in relation to all other aspects of 40k the paint is such a minor cost thing I don't even worry about it.
Back in 3rd edition I had an Eldar army I had painted with HoK Color Shift paint. At the time it was 3 times more expensive than an equal amount of Citadel paint. The army looked unique and different as a result but it was also a lot more expensive from a painting standpoint.
Most of my terrain painting involves rattle can sprays and 2" or 3" brushes for drybrush work.
Exactly. the price difference is almost irrelevant I agree.
I guess we are discussing the ethics of how something out to be priced. pointless discussion really.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/23 21:58:45
I don't think anyone is under the illusion that citadel paints are cheap.
To be honest though, I find them much thicker than Vallejo or P3 paints.
By the time you thin them to a decent consistency they aren’t far off Vallejo sized.
I tend not to use droppers often but that’s down to me hating to change the pots.
I get little painting time as it is, I rather not burn multiple painting sessions just changing pots to bottles.
JamesY wrote:I think the thing with gw paint that is often forgotten is that you can buy it in most high streets... You pay more for them as they are so easy to pick up and use well.
Um, yeah, no. Not convinced.
they are made by a multinational FTSE 200 business with shareholders to pay.
I think that's the bigger reason for paying more.
Mothsniper wrote:Tempera that is used for Palekh is more than enough for plastic mini
The Wikipedia wrote:Palekh miniature (Russian: Палехская миниатюра) is a Russian folk handicraft of a miniature painting, which is done with tempera paints on varnished articles made of papier-mâché (small boxes, cigarette and powder cases etc.).
mrFickle wrote: Citadel paints are typically thick and I did wonder if that was part of the value GW perceived in them but they do not tell you to thin the top the constituency of a V paint.
Literally every Warhammer TV tutorial has you thnning your paints. Almost every line of paints will need some thinning, even Vallejo (the amount is dependent on which line - less for Game Color and more for Model Color).
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
Watercolour with extra pigment. Gives more opaque, matt colours. (Cheaper stuff would have added white pigment or chalk, too) Used to be very popular in the illustration biz, hence 'poster paint'.
I want to say no on gouach.
Not sure, but it seems like a water based paint akin to watercolor and will do well on soak-able surface.
It just feels like it will flake off plastic
I think I will paint a mini with crayola range just to prove the point.
I doubt that will prove the point you think it will.
It's not just about the amount of pigment. Different acrylic paints are formulated to stick to different things. Paint designed for use on paper is not necessarily going to provide decent coverage or adhesion on plastic miniatures, regardless of how much pigment is in it.
Sure, with lots of work and effort I can make craft store .99 cent paint work on a mini but the money I save is going to be spent on time. With my Createx paints or name brand paints I add requisite thinner, takes a few seconds of time, and spray.
When I need to muck about with paint I don't want to use it. I've known people who spent days trying to resuscitate dried out paint instead of spending $4 or so to buy a new pot.
I avoid citadel where at all possible simply on the grounds of the packaging. Drop bottles are so much more convenient to use. I really like the citadel washes and so I reluctantly buy those, but that's really about it.
I think I will paint a mini with crayola range just to prove the point.
I doubt that will prove the point you think it will.
It's not just about the amount of pigment. Different acrylic paints are formulated to stick to different things. Paint designed for use on paper is not necessarily going to provide decent coverage or adhesion on plastic miniatures, regardless of how much pigment is in it.
I think you are right about not proving the point, but for a different reason.
It should not be too hard to prove that outside paint is viable for miniatures.
And pigment amount was never a point of viability in the discussion, it was only present in the cost discussion.
I think you might of misunderstood the point I wanted to prove or I miss-communicated it.
Decent coverage or adhesion on plastic miniatures is extremely weak with standard miniature paints, just paint something with citadel, wait till it dries, and rub it with a finger, the paint will roll off the plastic in a thin film. So how is that different from craft acrylics?
I would agree with ya on "paint designed for use on paper" if we talked about watercolor vs acrylic.
But we are comparing acrylic paint to acrylic paint.
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jivardi wrote: I guess for me it's a question of time and flow.
Sure, with lots of work and effort I can make craft store .99 cent paint work on a mini but the money I save is going to be spent on time. With my Createx paints or name brand paints I add requisite thinner, takes a few seconds of time, and spray.
When I need to muck about with paint I don't want to use it. I've known people who spent days trying to resuscitate dried out paint instead of spending $4 or so to buy a new pot.
So the extra cost is the convenience and time saved.
Because that is my whole point! lolz
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/24 05:07:28
now there is something to be said of the thickness of the plastic used in the bottles that you transfer with GW paints and vallejo. the plastic for vallejo is significantly thicker.
That said, Vallejo paints FOR LIFE.
Decent coverage or adhesion on plastic miniatures is extremely weak with standard miniature paints, just paint something with citadel, wait till it dries, and rub it with a finger, the paint will roll off the plastic in a thin film. So how is that different from craft acrylics?
The difference is that some cheap craft paints won't stick to the plastic in the first place. Or will take so many coats to form a decent layer of colour that you wind up with Captain Blobby instead of a Space Marine.
I would agree with ya on "paint designed for use on paper" if we talked about watercolor vs acrylic.
But we are comparing acrylic paint to acrylic paint.
That's a bit like saying 'Why can't I run a marathon in these Ugg Boots? They're just shoes, right?'
JamesY wrote:I think the thing with gw paint that is often forgotten is that you can buy it in most high streets... You pay more for them as they are so easy to pick up and use well.
Um, yeah, no. Not convinced.
You aren't convinced that the costs of running a brick and mortar store might impact on the cost of a product sold within?
Decent coverage or adhesion on plastic miniatures is extremely weak with standard miniature paints, just paint something with citadel, wait till it dries, and rub it with a finger, the paint will roll off the plastic in a thin film. So how is that different from craft acrylics?
The difference is that some cheap craft paints won't stick to the plastic in the first place. Or will take so many coats to form a decent layer of colour that you wind up with Captain Blobby instead of a Space Marine.
I would agree with ya on "paint designed for use on paper" if we talked about watercolor vs acrylic.
But we are comparing acrylic paint to acrylic paint.
That's a bit like saying 'Why can't I run a marathon in these Ugg Boots? They're just shoes, right?'
All acrylic paints are not equal.
I think at this point we are talking past each other.
Last thing I will say is that I never said all acrylics are equal, I talked about pro acrylics being viable.
"That's a bit like saying 'Why can't I run a marathon in these Ugg Boots? They're just shoes, right?'
NO, it would be like that if I said that I will use craft paint to paint 5000 points of ratmen!
Just like you said, I will not prove anything.
You are 100% right! Because I can't even communicate it seems.
Craft paint can be used.
The issue however is that it’s generally very low pigment and extremely thick.
So once you’ve thinned it you need absolutely tons of layers to get a flat colour.
It works out for feathering and blending but it will take you much longer to achieve the same results as a decent paint.
Squidmar has a couple of videos where he uses stuff like that.
5000pts 
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