Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2015/07/08 08:27:29
Subject: Age of Sigmar - Campaign/Fluff Book, Stormcast Archers, Unmounted Celestan Incoming
So $50 for the generic hammer dudes, and $33 for the leader dude.
Yeah.
OK
No.
I bought 5 White Dwarves, got the hammer guys and am selling the magazines off for a couple bucks each. This way at least I get one unit on the cheap.
And four other people get zero White Dwarfs! Hooray!
Yes, I'm bitter that I was in 5 stores in two cities and the internet and could find exactly zero non-ebay copies. Spend half my Saturday walking from nerd store to nerd store in the burning sun and just.couldn't.get.one. The first WD mini I don't have since 1998. End of an era. At least one store kept a copy and will let me look at the painting guide
Looking for a Skaven Doomwheel banner to repair my Nurgle knights.
2015/07/08 09:02:59
Subject: Age of Sigmar - Campaign/Fluff Book, Stormcast Archers, Unmounted Celestan Incoming
Lt. Donomar StubbornBull wrote: It seems instead of addressing this issue they are ploughing ahead with further steep pricing..sigh
But now you can play the game just fine with a dozen models. Which has always been the favorite excuse of posters promoting games that are even more expensive per model, but require a smaller force.
Posters on ignore list: 36
40k Potica Edition - 40k patch with reactions, suppression and all that good stuff. Feedback thread here.
Gangs of Nu Ork - Necromunda / Gorkamorka expansion supporting all faction. Feedback thread here.
2015/07/08 09:11:44
Subject: Age of Sigmar - Campaign/Fluff Book, Stormcast Archers, Unmounted Celestan Incoming
Lt. Donomar StubbornBull wrote: It seems instead of addressing this issue they are ploughing ahead with further steep pricing..sigh
But now you can play the game just fine with a dozen models. Which has always been the favorite excuse of posters promoting games that are even more expensive per model, but require a smaller force.
Yeah, lol -- I was waiting for this one
Lower model count game = more expensive per model. It was always ok for WMH to be expensive per model, right?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/08 09:14:26
2015/07/08 09:16:46
Subject: Age of Sigmar - Campaign/Fluff Book, Stormcast Archers, Unmounted Celestan Incoming
Well Warmachine gets cheaper when they (re-)release a model in a cheaper material. New hps plastic battle engines are not even 2/3 of the metal/resin ones. So the prices go DOWN.
Warhammer goes upppppp.
2015/07/08 09:21:39
Subject: Age of Sigmar - Campaign/Fluff Book, Stormcast Archers, Unmounted Celestan Incoming
Mymearan wrote: Very interesting post by Tuomas Pirinen, former GW designer (Mordheim and many other things), now video game designer:
Spoiler:
Tuomas Pirinen, Brutal Deluxe Game Design
WARHAMMER AGE OF SIGMAR -PRODUCT DECONSTRUCTION
OK, there is no way I can skip this, I've been buried with requests to write what I think about the new Warhammer: Age of Sigmar rules. Better get on with it then.
Disclaimer: all the thoughts and opinions here are my own, and do not reflect the official line of Games Workshop in any way, shape or form. I've not worked for GW in over a decade. I reserve the right to be completely wrong about this.
OVERVIEW AND PRODUCT STRATEGY
I've spent a fair amount of time reading the rules for Warhammer: the Age of Sigmar, and the associated War Scrolls, and I've gone through the miniatures range and the background.
Key takeaways: Free, much streamlined rules with visually stunning (if 40K-ish) models that are very expensive speaks to me of a strategy: with these rules, many more new people can try the game and grasp the rules rapidly. Some of those will like the game, and a portion will be able to afford the cost associated with it, and without points limits on the armies, they can spend as little or as much as they wish on the game.
I see that the new miniature range will attract many collectors, and perhaps a fewer gamers -possibly a valid approach, business-wise.
All in all this targets a very particular kind of consumer: Wealthy, social, and focused on collectability of very high-quality designs -very much the Apple tactic. It is a huge gamble to see if this is new direction works. It may also be that a completely new world will allow GW to target a new breed of gamers not exposed to Warhammer before.
To understand the shift in the game it is important to see that many things are in play here that your average hobbyist does not need to care about: the shelf space in the shops (Warhammer always took massive amount of space), the spiralling cost associated with making a physical product, the intense competition from both physical and digital games and the rise of 3D printing in the near future.
MINIATURES
When it comes to miniature sculpting, the rigid unit hierarchy of classic Warhammer limits them, which was always problem when compared to 40K. Thus I am not surprised to see the round bases and much larger models with far more articulation. They are eye-catching and have been made with collectability in mind. They also are so complex that the immediate danger of 3D printing will have been averted at least for a while.
Overall, many of the miniatures are stunningly well made, and I doubt another company can match the sheer intricate detail of these anytime soon. Whatever people like the designs themselves is another matter, but they do that that modern western design vibe. As always, a matter of taste.
THE RULES
The rules themselves have some very nifty ideas, and I am happy that some of the show real creativity and opportunities for interesting situations during game. I do like some of the risk/reward elements such as the charging rules. Some I do not understand, like gaining a major bonus if you won your previous match whenever that may have been. This sets off the game skewered towards one side.
In general, the new rules are streamlined, short, easy-to-absorb and will lead into quite straightforward games. Without tactical maneuvering and flank/back bonuses, the games will most likely become immense killing grounds in the middle, with one side completely wiped out, and the result having a lot to do with luck. I also see some worrying opportunities for cheating, especially with customizing models for extra reach. But I honestly also see a lot of opportunity for fun and tense moments too, in a casual gaming sort of way.
And those dreaded dancing rules... I am personally not a designer that likes to enforce the players to dance, sing or shout during a game: many gamers are introverted, or have disabilities or health conditions that do not allow them to perform a cha-cha-cha moves in the middle of the game. I see the wish to make Warhammer more social, but I would not have gone this way myself: rather, I would have given the players other rewards than game bonuses for awkward behavior.
All in all, the rules are simplified, streamlined, and clearly aimed at getting as many new people as possible to try out the rules.
THE WARHAMMER WORLD
I am of course sad to see Warhammer world go, as it was a labor of love for so many people for so many years, including me. It is one of the most iconic and enduring fantasy worlds ever created. But I do see some of the logic: the Warhammer world was complete, and a low-fantasy world. In order to bring more fantastical creatures and new armies (without making it impossible to fit all the new models into the Warhammer shops) a clean slate was the easy way forward. Personally hard for me to see, but if the gamble pays off it might well be worth it for GW.
I also hazard a guess that there will be a more advanced ruleset for more tactical and strategic players who have outgrown the 4-page rules. I especially think we will see supplements for magic. Without any further rules development, I am not sure about the longevity of the game. Easy-to-pick-up, difficult-to-master is the Holy Grail of the game design, and I am not quite sure these rules are there yet. To keep customers returning, games need long-term engagement, and that requires more depth to delve into. I think we will see this in the coming months.
CLOSING THOUGHTS
As always, I wish GW and its staff the greatest of success -the livelihood of many families depends on It. Many fantastically talented people work at the Studio and beyond whom I respect more than words can say. I see Age of Sigmar as a huge gamble, and it will be interesting to see if it pays off. I also feel that it may have been a gamble they had to take in one form or another. We might see a smaller playerbase, but very lucrative one to emerge from these rules and miniatures.
Lastly, I want to say this. If you enjoy the new rules and models, hold your head up high: every gamer has the right to like whatever they damn well please. But respect the old guard, they built the hobby into what it is today.
If you don't like the rules, I absolutely get it. Please don't take it out on the people that do like them. As gamers we've never had as much choice and quality to choose from. when it comes to our gaming. Thoughtful critique and discussion wins over bitterness every time.
What a great few words about the game. Thanks for sharing!
I particularly like his closing thoughts:
Lastly, I want to say this. If you enjoy the new rules and models, hold your head up high: every gamer has the right to like whatever they damn well please. But respect the old guard, they built the hobby into what it is today.
If you don't like the rules, I absolutely get it. Please don't take it out on the people that do like them. As gamers we've never had as much choice and quality to choose from. when it comes to our gaming. Thoughtful critique and discussion wins over bitterness every time.
2015/07/08 09:22:55
Subject: Age of Sigmar - Campaign/Fluff Book, Stormcast Archers, Unmounted Celestan Incoming
Lt. Donomar StubbornBull wrote: It seems instead of addressing this issue they are ploughing ahead with further steep pricing..sigh
But now you can play the game just fine with a dozen models. Which has always been the favorite excuse of posters promoting games that are even more expensive per model, but require a smaller force.
Whilst that is true, low model count games also usually feature much more detailed models - see Confrontation, Hell Dorado, Infinity etc. The bland plastic guys from this game don't compare.
“Good people are quick to help others in need, without hesitation or requiring proof the need is genuine. The wicked will believe they are fighting for good, but when others are in need they’ll be reluctant to help, withholding compassion until they see proof of that need. And yet Evil is quick to condemn, vilify and attack. For Evil, proof isn’t needed to bring harm, only hatred and a belief in the cause.”
2015/07/08 09:25:56
Subject: Age of Sigmar - Campaign/Fluff Book, Stormcast Archers, Unmounted Celestan Incoming
What a great few words about the game. Thanks for sharing!
I particularly like his closing thoughts:
Lastly, I want to say this. If you enjoy the new rules and models, hold your head up high: every gamer has the right to like whatever they damn well please. But respect the old guard, they built the hobby into what it is today.
If you don't like the rules, I absolutely get it. Please don't take it out on the people that do like them. As gamers we've never had as much choice and quality to choose from. when it comes to our gaming. Thoughtful critique and discussion wins over bitterness every time.
Yeah that's pretty much one of the most human responses to AoS I've read so far.
Lt. Donomar StubbornBull wrote: It seems instead of addressing this issue they are ploughing ahead with further steep pricing..sigh
But now you can play the game just fine with a dozen models. Which has always been the favorite excuse of posters promoting games that are even more expensive per model, but require a smaller force.
2015/07/08 09:30:29
Subject: Age of Sigmar - Campaign/Fluff Book, Stormcast Archers, Unmounted Celestan Incoming
Lt. Donomar StubbornBull wrote: It seems instead of addressing this issue they are ploughing ahead with further steep pricing..sigh
But now you can play the game just fine with a dozen models. Which has always been the favorite excuse of posters promoting games that are even more expensive per model, but require a smaller force.
Whilst that is true, low model count games also usually feature much more detailed models - see Confrontation, Hell Dorado, Infinity etc. The bland plastic guys from this game don't compare.
That's a matter of taste really; I don't find them particularly appealing as Fantasy models, but I can see myriad uses for them for 40K conversions(which was likely a factor in their design), and by the same token you couldn't pay me to spend hobby time on the pseudo-anime style of Infinity as it just doesn't appeal to me.
As for the price; while I agree it's dismaying to see GW still cacking the bed when it comes to the cost of bigger games, to be fair to them(ugh, yep, I just threw up in my mouth a little) the Sigmarines will likely end up being a 5-man box of Terminator-scale 40mm base models with a range of weapon options, and they're priced at exactly the same cost as a box of standard Terminators that don't even get multiple loadouts in the box just a couple of extra bitz. Of course, all of GW's models are hilariously overcosted given they're mass-produced plastic, but at least with the Sigmarines they're not gouging folk any more than they usually do.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
2015/07/08 09:34:28
Subject: Age of Sigmar - Campaign/Fluff Book, Stormcast Archers, Unmounted Celestan Incoming
For what it's worth, the anime stuff is mostly gone from Infinity, it's more sleek high scifi now. It was mostly the older stuff that was more overtly anime.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/08 09:36:15
2015/07/08 09:37:20
Subject: Age of Sigmar - Campaign/Fluff Book, Stormcast Archers, Unmounted Celestan Incoming
RoninXiC wrote: Well Warmachine gets cheaper when they (re-)release a model in a cheaper material. New hps plastic battle engines are not even 2/3 of the metal/resin ones. So the prices go DOWN.
Warhammer goes upppppp.
The prices are STILL more expensive, though.
For example, black dragons (30mm base khador infantry), were recently released in plastic and cost $60 for a box of 10. and are no better than box-of-10 GW models, like Kabalites or BA Tacticals.
From a technical, plastic model perspective, PP plastic models are only a little better than their metal counterparts (some people might argue a little worse, but I disagree). GW plastic models, on the other hand, are MILES better than GW's metal counterparts. Yes, someone may like the sculpt of X metal librarian than Y plastic librarian, but put the unpainted model side-by-side and look at how much better -- crisper and smoother -- the material is. It doesn't even come close.
Anyways, most of the PP new models are still metal or metal + resin, and they as expensive or more expensive than GW models. That doesn't even get to the real crux of it from a modelling perspective -- put them side-by-side, and any GW plastic kit produced in the last 5 years will blow a PP plastic kit out of the water.
Either way, it's no longer a valid argument to say, "AoS is a more expensive game than WMH". Toss in any model count, and they're competitive now, with AoS probably being a little cheaper. PP character models they are just as or more expensive than GW clampack solos, and PP "grunts" are pretty much all more expensive than comparable GW multimodel kits.
Of course, this comes with the usual caveat: they're different games! Buy whichever models appeal to you, play whichever game you like. Or, since you need less than 40 models anyways, just buy and play both, and make armies for both.
In AoS, if you use the starter kit models, it's silly cheap. Likewise, if you buy a WMH battle box, it's a great deal. But assuming you're not, and you just want to buy models a la carte, even at a price of $10 a model, a 30-model army is just $300 undiscounted and the rules are free. Given that either PP or GW models can be usually had for 25% or more off, the whole game with the army (for either WMH or AoS) is barely over $200. If you want a super duper premium gigantor model like a Bloodthirster or a Colossal, add another hundred bucks or so. No big deal, right?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/07/08 09:45:32
2015/07/08 09:43:59
Subject: Age of Sigmar - Campaign/Fluff Book, Stormcast Archers, Unmounted Celestan Incoming
filbert wrote: Damning with faint praise from Tuomas Pirinen IMO
That's the conclusion I reached as well. Coming on top of Rick P's assessment, you can tell that the old designers are glad they jumped ship years ago.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2015/07/08 09:53:24
Subject: Age of Sigmar - Campaign/Fluff Book, Stormcast Archers, Unmounted Celestan Incoming
Model-count is a hard way to judge a game. There were sub-20 models Chaos armies for earlier WHFB even after a general increase in body count. Someone even mentioned in an AoS thread playing a 2000 pts Chaos list with 16 models in 6th edition. (I would *love* to see a few good examples of such lists to make a nice little display "legacy" army, btw)
I look back at 5th edition an I love what I see. Small units, but still blocks of them and not hundreds ofnmodels per army. It looks like a small, well, army, but individual models don't start to blurr together while gazing over hordes of tiny dudes. 4x4 regiments look best, IMO, but the command models not fitting symmetrically is annoying. 5x5 has perfect grunt-CSM-grunt symmetry, but doesn't look as nice. I geuss I'm a weird in-betweener.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/08 10:01:42
Looking for a Skaven Doomwheel banner to repair my Nurgle knights.
2015/07/08 10:14:19
Subject: Age of Sigmar - Campaign/Fluff Book, Stormcast Archers, Unmounted Celestan Incoming
I think we've been over this:
Yes, PP games are expensive. On a per-model basis they are in line with old WHFB. Unless we start cherrypicking, in which case the whole discussion becomes asinine.
Age of Sigmar is shaping up to be more expensive than WHFB, which means it is a skirmish game that is more expensive than other skirmish games, meaning we are back to square one. People said that WHFB prices were high, but acceptable for a lower model-count game. Predictably, the prices for AoS seem to be higher than for WHFB.
2015/07/08 10:24:15
Subject: Age of Sigmar - Campaign/Fluff Book, Stormcast Archers, Unmounted Celestan Incoming
Binabik15 wrote: Model-count is a hard way to judge a game. There were sub-20 models Chaos armies for earlier WHFB even after a general increase in body count. Someone even mentioned in an AoS thread playing a 2000 pts Chaos list with 16 models in 6th edition. (I would *love* to see a few good examples of such lists to make a nice little display "legacy" army, btw)
I look back at 5th edition an I love what I see. Small units, but still blocks of them and not hundreds ofnmodels per army. It looks like a small, well, army, but individual models don't start to blurr together while gazing over hordes of tiny dudes. 4x4 regiments look best, IMO, but the command models not fitting symmetrically is annoying. 5x5 has perfect grunt-CSM-grunt symmetry, but doesn't look as nice. I geuss I'm a weird in-betweener.
In previous editions of WHFB, a Chaos lord, with mark of khorne, a magic weapon, and on a chariot pulled by juggernauts, could easily cost around 1000 points. Those were the days
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
2015/07/08 10:26:18
Subject: Age of Sigmar - Campaign/Fluff Book, Stormcast Archers, Unmounted Celestan Incoming
Smaller model count games usually also have nuanced rules to make sure those few models create complex game-interactions. (malifaux)
AoS has a small model count.. but the rules are so simple (and usually don't function correctly) and without nuance I can't see any difference between AoS with 10 models and AoS with 200 models. Move forward, roll dice, deal with random charts. Maybe win, maybe lose!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/07/08 10:27:02
Keeper of the DomBox
Warhammer Armies - Click to see galleries of fully painted armies
32,000, 19,000, Renegades - 10,000 , 7,500,
2015/07/08 10:30:39
Subject: Age of Sigmar - Campaign/Fluff Book, Stormcast Archers, Unmounted Celestan Incoming
filbert wrote: Damning with faint praise from Tuomas Pirinen IMO
That's the conclusion I reached as well. Coming on top of Rick P's assessment, you can tell that the old designers are glad they jumped ship years ago.
Rick P on AoS? got a link?
2015/07/08 10:45:36
Subject: Age of Sigmar - Campaign/Fluff Book, Stormcast Archers, Unmounted Celestan Incoming
Lt. Donomar StubbornBull wrote: It seems instead of addressing this issue they are ploughing ahead with further steep pricing..sigh
But now you can play the game just fine with a dozen models. Which has always been the favorite excuse of posters promoting games that are even more expensive per model, but require a smaller force.
Whilst that is true, low model count games also usually feature much more detailed models - see Confrontation, Hell Dorado, Infinity etc. The bland plastic guys from this game don't compare.
The also feature much more detailed rules so that using your one model at a time is actually interesting. Look at Malifaux and Infinity with their opposed rolls/duels, Malifauxs suit triggers and Infinitys ARO mechanic.
Saying Age of Sigmar works with a low model count so the model price is justified just like other games is disengenuous at best. You know it's designed for larger games. That's why the rules are so simplified. It's mising the point of the game playing it with a small force as much as it's missing the point of Infinity or Malifaux playing them with large forces.
40k and WHFB can be played at 500pts with a single character and about 20 other models. It doesn't mean it was designed or intended to play at that scale.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/08 10:46:43
2015/07/08 10:54:52
Subject: Age of Sigmar - Campaign/Fluff Book, Stormcast Archers, Unmounted Celestan Incoming
oh this whole mess makes sense now, AoS is actually a social partygame for the after hours...
phew.. and here I thought GW was giving us another Tabletop with bad rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/08 10:55:09
Fow: 5000 Points+ US Army
40K: 4000 Points+ And many more smaller forces in the cabinet...
filbert wrote: Damning with faint praise from Tuomas Pirinen IMO
That's the conclusion I reached as well. Coming on top of Rick P's assessment, you can tell that the old designers are glad they jumped ship years ago.
Rick P on AoS? got a link?
I dunno if this is what he/she is pertaining to, but Rick Priestly wrote the foreword of Mantic's upcoming KoW rulebook. Quotes from him:
“When asked to write these few introductory words I hardly expected to find myself writing the foreword to what is undoubtedly now the most popular mass-battle fantasy game on the market!”
“Many converts have found themselves won over by a mixture of solid game play, straight-forward but elegant mechanics, and an approach to development that plainly puts the player first.”
“Well done especially to its creator and designer Alessio Cavatore. I have worked together with Alessio on many gaming projects over the years, both historical and fantasy, and have always appreciated his clear and focussed approach to game design, instinct for uncluttered rules, and – most of all – boundless and unquenchable enthusiasm for games and gaming.”
Also, from an interview a while back:
Spoiler:
“Blimey you turn your back for a day or two! I worked for GW (Citadel in Newark and then GW at Eastwood and Nottingham) for 28 years, and the company changed a great deal over that time, but we always aimed at making money. I can just about remember the days when making money was about having enough in the bank at the end of the month to cover our wages – I don’t know if that was ever literally true – but it certainly came across that way! We also enjoyed what we were doing! We enjoyed games and gaming and – of course – the models that went with that. The big recent change is that GW has actually stated – both during the Chapter House court hearing and subsequently to its shareholders – that it considers its market to be collectors of models and not gamers. The games are very much played down internally, and you can see with the latest (very nicely done!) models that they are conceived as collectors pieces that have very little practicality in terms of a wargame. It’s perfectly fine for GW to turn its backs upon wargaming in favour of modelling and collecting if that is the vision of the current management. But the result is that many customers who are or have been passionate about GW’s games do feel marginalized.
I should add that we always used to maintain a games design department that was fairly heavy weight – smart guys, some of them rebarbative, bloody-minded and mildly dangerous types (dangerous to themselves on occasion). I won’t say who it was… but one of our staff once ran back into the burning building he’d just been rescued from by the fire brigade to recover his ‘stash’ from the flames! The design team has been run down over the years – the guys who work there now are just not doing the same sort of work and they’re not the same sort of people. Probably for the best
I think that is the danger Rob – well not literally fridges to motorcyclists! – but betting the company on the assumption that the market is primarily collectors and not gamers is a big gamble isn’t it! In the short term it will work because so many gamers are loyal to the backgrounds and to what is left of the games range (that’ll be 40K then). The large, very nicely done, collectors style pieces generate good sales at high margins. I would expect to see an improvement in full year performance under their new CEO – and maybe even a dividend! Long term though… if GW is sincere about changing its market stance (and does not lose its bottle and start to back track – which is still possible) it opens up the market to any number of new companies that are interested in games, gaming and gamers! That won’t do GW any harm so long as they are determined to abandon that market – and it would leave them to concentrate on a mixture of high price highly profitable collectibles and licensing its IP out into other media – always something I felt was under exploited due to fear of losing control at the top of the business. But what do I know
Well I’m touched by all the thank yous! So let me add my own. Thank you for making it possible for me and so many of my comrades to earn a living doing something we love – there’s not many people get that chance – and I remain eternally grateful.”
2015/07/08 10:59:13
Subject: Age of Sigmar - Campaign/Fluff Book, Stormcast Archers, Unmounted Celestan Incoming
Binabik15 wrote: Model-count is a hard way to judge a game. There were sub-20 models Chaos armies for earlier WHFB even after a general increase in body count. Someone even mentioned in an AoS thread playing a 2000 pts Chaos list with 16 models in 6th edition. (I would *love* to see a few good examples of such lists to make a nice little display "legacy" army, btw)
I look back at 5th edition an I love what I see. Small units, but still blocks of them and not hundreds ofnmodels per army. It looks like a small, well, army, but individual models don't start to blurr together while gazing over hordes of tiny dudes. 4x4 regiments look best, IMO, but the command models not fitting symmetrically is annoying. 5x5 has perfect grunt-CSM-grunt symmetry, but doesn't look as nice. I geuss I'm a weird in-betweener.
In previous editions of WHFB, a Chaos lord, with mark of khorne, a magic weapon, and on a chariot pulled by juggernauts, could easily cost around 1000 points. Those were the days
Don't make me look for my Hydra Sword.
No, I meant post-Ravening Hordes, when armies were big already. I don't have the skills to make a good low-model 2000 points Chaos list that would WORK if we decide to play 6th or 7th edition, though, because we played mostly Specialist Games and sub-2000 points games.
Now such a list sounds like a great "list" for AoS as well, should that turn out somewhat entertaining at least. And the modelling aspect of a band of higly detailed individuals facing an army fascinated me ever since I played the Seven Heroes scenario. So, if someone had a good list or a link to one, PM me, please.
More on topic: Just had the delivery address changed for my preorder of AoS to my dorm, I might not be able to visit my family or my GF due to cramming, but at least I'll have some plastic to work on when my eyes are tired and my head hurts and I should go to bed instead
Looking for a Skaven Doomwheel banner to repair my Nurgle knights.
2015/07/08 11:04:21
Subject: Age of Sigmar - Campaign/Fluff Book, Stormcast Archers, Unmounted Celestan Incoming
The first 
Legion: Dark Angels 
Renegades - 
