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Why take the time to write a long post about how much you think a game sucks? If you dont like it dont play it.

Hollismason wrote:lots of stuff that misses the mark completely

TL;DR.



The things that you need to get into your head are:
- GW isn't a publishing company any more than GM is a publishing company because it publishes manuals and fliers.
- GW isn't a software company with product that can be patched or de-authorized on the fly.
- GW isn't trying to make the be-all, end-all of gaming that sells one copy and never more
- GW *is* a miniatures company in the business of selling minis - everything else is secondary
- GW *is* a gaming company that wants some sense of consistency, rather than placing customers on an update treadmill
- GW *is* listening to their customers, who, overall, do *not* really need or want Tournament-type FAQs to play a glorified beer&pretzels game

If you can't get the above facts into your head, you're going to continue to fail here.

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UsdiThunder wrote:WoTC has been developing MTG for almost as long as GW has been developing WHFB/WH40K. The difference is their product cannot exist seperate of the rules.

A Black Lotus ($1000 Card) is only worth something if MTG still exists and the Vintage Format exists. If MTG closed up shop tomorrow the Lotus would drop in price back to the value of the card board it was printed on.

As I noted earlier, that is because, WotC product *is* rules. So *of course*, they do a good job at it after a decade. But if you played at the beginning (up through, say, 4th), you'd know that WotC had a lot of rules problems, too. The Alpha cards are most notorious for this, and it was like this for quite some time before WotC really figured out that they were a rules company and that tournament-style tightness was desirable.

There are a number of people who would like a Black Lotus for collector / nostalgia / casual play - if the price got low enough. If WotC (now Hasbro) went bankrupt, I could see this having a $100 price floor, simply due to rarity and notoriety. It wouldn't drop to $0.10 like a common.
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Frazzled wrote:1A. How much would you have spent on GW miniatures if there were no GW rules?
1B. If the rules were "better" would you have spent more, less, or same?
1C. To former GW gamers, what amount of additional miniatures would you have bought if there were "better" rules?
1D. What is the actual cost for "better" rules?

1A. I'd benchmark in between $100 and $1000, like Heavy Gear, Jovian Chronicles, or Inquisitor minis, along with Gundam or 1/35 armor kits. These are things that I bought simply because they're pretty to look at and nice to have.

1B. I'm a collector, meaning that I mostly buy what interests me. When things have "better" (i.e. stronger) rules, I might buy a little more of the stronger over the weaker. Net gain is probably <5%. Remember, I'm on a budget, so it's pretty zero-sum. What makes the biggest difference is whether GW makes a model I like. Orks are strong, but I just won't play greenskins. Valks are cool, so I'll buy 3 of them.

1C. n/app. Although if you switch this to Heavy Gear, Btech any of the other high-detail 1970s / 1980s-style TTG rulesets, I'd probably have more if the rules were more streamlined and 40k-like. Heavy Gear stalled at 2 Cadres - if they moved this to a modern 40k-type system, I'd probably be all over it.

1D. I'd say it'd probably double the development cycle time and effort. Or it'd "dumb down" the Codices considerably. GW splits the difference with a product that is "good enough" for the casual gamer, and fast enough that it recovers cost in a timely fashion.
1D.

And as a counterpoint:
1A. I'd benchmark in between $100 and $1000, like Heavy Gear, Jovian Chronicles, or Inquisitor minis, along with Gundam or 1/35 armor kits. These are things that I bought simply because they're pretty to look at and nice to have.
****In my instance, it would be US$ - 0 -. I haven't bought a model just to buy since high school. Going that way it would not have been GW minis.

1B. I'm a collector, meaning that I mostly buy what interests me. When things have "better" (i.e. stronger) rules, I might buy a little more of the stronger over the weaker. Net gain is probably <5%. Remember, I'm on a budget, so it's pretty zero-sum. What makes the biggest difference is whether GW makes a model I like. Orks are strong, but I just won't play greenskins. Valks are cool, so I'll buy 3 of them.
****I respect that. In some ways I am a collector as well. Or I should say was a collector. The elimination of my LATD list put me off in many ways. I've only played a few games of 5th edition. Once in a while I get the urge to being playing heavily again, as now, but it often passes as I get frustrated with the 40K rules set.

1C. n/app. Although if you switch this to Heavy Gear, Btech any of the other high-detail 1970s / 1980s-style TTG rulesets, I'd probably have more if the rules were more streamlined and 40k-like. Heavy Gear stalled at 2 Cadres - if they moved this to a modern 40k-type system, I'd probably be all over it.
****I slipped past that. Go from Avalon Hill, skip a bunch of years to 40K. Truthfully though, had I started with warmachine or FOW I would have stuck with that just as easily. GW games aren't especially special to me.

1D. I'd say it'd probably double the development cycle time and effort. Or it'd "dumb down" the Codices considerably. GW splits the difference with a product that is "good enough" for the casual gamer, and fast enough that it recovers cost in a timely fashion.
1D.
*****Not necessarily. They already develop new books to churn the minis. Free playtesting would eek out the problems. A balanced codex would lead to more balanced sales. I don't think GW develops new models just to see them dally on the shelf, as spawn did with the last chaos codex. In contrast to the only cost rule I'd look at rules development as a form of marketing. A good company will perform proper market research and tailor their product. Rules are just an extension of that product tailoring. When you don't bad things happen **cough entire dark eldar line what were they smoking? cough***

If I sound harsh, that's because I think there's a need. Too many people would walk into a GW store touting their mouths about both prices and the rules. I've spent the vast majority of time on these posts trying to get people educated and understand the finer points and problems about why GW and other game companies can't do these things. Remember when I talked about metal prices? I talked about that way before PP ever talked about raising their prices over metal. These are real issues.

The thing is, when it comes to game balance, I'm on your side. I agree, the rules aren't balanced and aren't tested enough. But that's not going to be enough to cause change.

If you want GW to evolve, or barring that, you want to make your own games company, you need to understand these fundamental problems between game design, game balance, and basic economics.

Too many people walk in and say, "do this, do that." and their solutions aren't well thought out or simply aren't practical.

It's easy to say, "Test the game more! It makes a better game!" You know what? A business doesn't give a crap that it's a better game. Once again, you need to be able to show and demonstrate to higher ups that doing so is an excellent business move. This is a real world skill involving real world business.

Walking in and not having knowledge of basic game design concepts or basic economic factors is guranteed to kill any sort of suggestion you make.

I pick apart the post not because I disagree, but because your assertions are common misconceptions about how to go about fixing the problem.

Now, on to real world numbers. Remember I said we sold every Dark Angel's army box? That the whole region did that? That was a highly successful Dark Angel's release. Fail of a codex. Each army box sold for about $200, those army boxes brought one store in a region over $20,000. That happened the month of March, 2007. 7 stores in my region, including the bunker over $150,000 of sales worth in Dark Angel army boxes. Every last one sold.

June: We sold every last white dwarf with the blood angel's in it for the month of June in the first week. That never happens. White Dwarf never sells out. My store's increase in marine sales amounted to two baal pred direct orders and and about 5 extra boxes of assault squads a week. This was reflected in region numbers, which I no longer have, but definitely June, which is normally a strong GW month because of summer, sucked compared to March. I thought the blood angel's in white dwarf was a superb and excellent idea. When I asked about it, I was told by higher ups straight up, "It would never happen again." Why? It didn't sell squat, that's why. It sold white dwarves, so that showed there was interest, but people didn't buy models. Not significantly, anyways. Enough didn't buy models that the region didn't make target, and my store didn't make target. The only store that made target that month was the Bunker in my region.

Don't believe me? Go look for that white dwarf issue. There's always a crapton of old white dwarves no one wants lying around. Go find that white dwarf for sale. You can't because it sold out.

I'm not supposed to post this, but whatever, this will give a little perspective about the power of new blood coming into the hobby. Let me give you what was my store's targets:

Monday through Friday: 800
Saturday: $1500
Sunday: $1500.
That's $7,000 a week, or about $30,000 a month. That would amount to $360,000 a year from one store. This is NOT net profit, this is total sales, so the numbers are high. Net profit would be about 15%, or $54,000. Not every store succeeds to this point, many stores do better than this target. A well-flowing bunker will pull bigger numbers than this.

Your average FLGS barely pulls in $300 a day. Remember that chart that was released that showed that GW stores were the biggest piece of the pie for revenue? There's a lot less GW stores then gaming stores and they pull in more revenue. That is not a coincidence. So, much as you guys may hate that reality, that is reality. The other reality is how a store is setup. The getting started section, (called the GSS), the intro table, and the intro paint station. You can break down a GW gaming store into those 3 components.

A beginner pulls in $500 on average in his first month. I shouldn't even have to defend that number, it is dead obvious why that is. I need about 60 new gamers a month to make target. That is only 2 new beginners a day.

Thats it?

What else do you want?

Okay, okay, I guess I can give you a little more. The number one stat tracked is intro games run. That is because there's a correlation between beginners starting the hobby and number of intro games. One of the hardest things for me to learn and fully understand was that this very number was the difference between a successful store and an unsuccessful store. Remember I said you only need two new recruits a day to make target? Even with silly over priced GW targets? Think how much fail your store is in if you only get one recruit a day. Think how much extra money your store would make with three new recruits a day.

Moz wrote:This sums up my position pretty well. GWs issued stance on tournament gamers reads to me as: "Moz, this is not your game. Go away."

Will do. PP cares about the competitive game, for now anyways; and that's good enough for me.

I'd say that I grew out of Grim'N'Dark in early highschool anyways.

I can't help but think of the parallels with George Lucas and the Star Wars films when talking about this.

Sometime between Empire and Return of the Jedi, Lucas apparently decided his films were for kids, probably because it was the merchandising that was really lining his pockets and not box office receipts. The scripts have stunk ever since. ROTJ and the prequel trilogy made a ton of money and sold a lot of merchandise, so they were a highly successful business venture. As films, they weren't very good. Yet the older fan base kept coming back to each prequel film, HOPING they'd see a return to the smart, adult-oriented writing in Empire.

I think it's a lot like that with GW games and veterans. I don't want to slag on them completely, because I still enjoy their products. But can I see a day in which I finally give them up, deciding they're for kids and not me? Yeah.

Your still young and have the illusion that getting older is about slaying your inner child.

Thats not what does it. It's parenthood that does it.
Once the kids are grown and supporting themselves you realize that one of the greatest pleasure of being a muture adult is letting the 10 year old lurking in the back of your brain out to play.

You just don't let him out unsupervised or you'll be dealin' with the coppers really quick.

You get to a point to where you just don't want to take things always so seriously any more.(This point usually starts when you have to start watching your blood pressure.)

They are bad at editing.

scuddman wrote:What else do you want?

Okay, okay, I guess I can give you a little more. The number one stat tracked is intro games run. That is because there's a correlation between beginners starting the hobby and number of intro games. One of the hardest things for me to learn and fully understand was that this very number was the difference between a successful store and an unsuccessful store. Remember I said you only need two new recruits a day to make target? Even with silly over priced GW targets? Think how much fail your store is in if you only get one recruit a day. Think how much extra money your store would make with three new recruits a day.

$360,000 gross is it? Wow, thats, low.

For one tiny little store? I think you'd hate to see how little local gaming stores make. To put it in perspective, you would have to sell 20 terminator boxes in one day to make target on an average day. Or 140 terminator boxes in one week. Your average gaming store doesn't even sell 20 tactical squad boxes in one week.

Edit: We actually had some days where we did $80 in one day. But our record was over $4,000 on one Saturday. It really varies. Targets are higher during Christmas.

I am just thinking of nongaming retailers.

Kilkrazy wrote:They are bad at editing.

Sorry I sometimes forget to type the edited for spelling or puncuation. I'll try to be better about it.


Edited to tease the mod

There's a reason why local gaming stores keep going out of business. It's hard to make money. This goes back to my post long ago about why a terminator box is so expensive. Once again, when something does sell, it has to pay for all the other things that don't and just sit around.

Yeah, gaming stores aren't like walmart or Target.

scuddman wrote:
A beginner pulls in $500 on average in his first month. I shouldn't even have to defend that number, it is dead obvious why that is. I need about 60 new gamers a month to make target. That is only 2 new beginners a day.

This might violate your PDA, although you've already been very explicit with the details, but do you realistically average 2 new people a day? That number seems bogusly high to me. I live in Wichita, Kansas where there's a large creative/alternative crowd that, because it's Wichita, Kansas, has absolutely nothing to do on the weekends. Admittedly the advertising quality of our FLGS is low, and most people find their purchases online or at a different venue, but it seems like we'd have trouble averaging two new players a month. And we're the regional hub for gaming. If you want to get pretty much any type of book- or tabletop-based gaming in, you come to our store or drive to Kansas City.

In all honesty, that's what makes me truly wonder how GW manages to stay afloat as a modeling company. If your store target is $360,000 gross, then wow, I honestly don't see it. You're barely covering utilities and wages on a daily basis, and that's if you average 2 customers a day.

How much return business do you experience? I've spent about $4,000 on GW models in the last 18 months, across four armies. That was when I started playing 40k as a "serious" hobby. By all the feedback I receive, I break the mold for average expenditure by at least 4x, and probably closer to 8x.

Why is it that there's this preconception that only tournament gamers want meaningful errata and FAQs? I'm new to wargames, but I can tell you right now that I have no intention of ever playing in a tourney, yet I want the rules to be understandable and fairly balanced. I've been playing RPGs for years, D&D especially, and no one is playing that in a competitive tournament for prizes like with Warhammer. Yet they constantly update that product with errata when there are mistakes and answer rules questions. Now I know some people will say, well their main product is the rules unlike GW, but the point still stands that whether you're trying to be king/queen of your geeky genre by toppling people at the world's largest tourney, or playing with friends in a basement, that you want rules that allow a fair game that are easy to understand and comprehend; and if they aren't you'd like the company that sold you those rules to fix them. Really, I just can not see how only WAAC guys want rules without errors, are understandable and allow for a fair game.

Also, I have to say personally that while I think the miniatures are cool, if there wasn't a game to play with it I wouldn't own more than one of any particular thing when one is good enough to sit on my shelf and look pretty. Also, if a game is easy to understand, has mistakes fixed and is fair; I'm likely to get more involved with it, play it more and buy more of what I need to play more. I really can't see me being the only one who feels that way either. It seems plain and simple to me.

Also, we're not asking for a perfect game, that's impossible, we're asking for a better game, which most assuredly is.

Frazzled wrote:And as a counterpoint:
1A. *In my instance, it would be US$ - 0 -. I haven't bought a model just to buy since high school. Going that way it would not have been GW minis.

1B. *I respect that. In some ways I am a collector as well. Or I should say was a collector. The elimination of my LATD list put me off in many ways. I've only played a few games of 5th edition. Once in a while I get the urge to being playing heavily again, as now, but it often passes as I get frustrated with the 40K rules set.

1C. *I slipped past that. Go from Avalon Hill, skip a bunch of years to 40K. Truthfully though, had I started with warmachine or FOW I would have stuck with that just as easily. GW games aren't especially special to me.

1D. *Not necessarily. They already develop new books to churn the minis. Free playtesting would eek out the problems. A balanced codex would lead to more balanced sales. I don't think GW develops new models just to see them dally on the shelf, as spawn did with the last chaos codex. In contrast to the only cost rule I'd look at rules development as a form of marketing. A good company will perform proper market research and tailor their product. Rules are just an extension of that product tailoring. When you don't bad things happen **cough entire dark eldar line what were they smoking? cough***

OK, that's fair. I came in out of scale modeling and board gaming, so not having rules (or models) isn't a big deal to me. That is, I'm perfectly happy to make stuff just to make it, or to play with cardboard chits. But 40k is nice in that it does both.

You know, you really ought to see if you can play more Apoc-style games. LatD is perfectly OK there, along with Kroot Mercs and stuff.

I got into 40k long before Flames, but I'm pretty sure I would have been very happy to play that.

"Free" playtesting isn't really free, as you need to coordinate and manage the playtesting, then present the results back in a usable form.

Are you still playing? If so, what?

If you assume that the majority of sales are to kids (which I am sure is true,) and kids don't care about balance, well-written rules or errata, then all is explained.

Very rarely playing. Trying to get restarted but since 5th came out it has been difficult. Not many opponents with my schedule, and other things are more important.

EDIT: People help a brother out and post comments on this thread, if you dare muahahaha!
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/230047.page

Kilkrazy wrote:If you assume that the majority of sales are to kids (which I am sure is true,) and kids don't care about balance, well-written rules or errata, then all is explained.

All I can say to that is I remember playing RPGs when I was a kid, even then I knew rules that made sense and didn't contain errors were what I wanted. It made the game run smoother, people had more fun and it made us want more. If a product is a subpar one you stop buying into it because you expect more of the same whether true or not.

Most stores fail at recruiting that often. However, player turnaround at a GW store is high. The redshirts have to rebuild and rebuild their hobby community all the time. Our record was over 100 people in academy at one point during Christmas, and not every beginner purchases academy, so yes, it is possible and is the mark of a successful store.
On the other hand, when we fail at recruiting we get the $80 crapola days where we might sadly barely pull in $500 in one week.

However, a GW store isn't a normal gaming store. We're supposed to funnel veterans to the bunkers and develop new hobbyists. That's why GW stores are small, cramped, and have few tables. They're not built for veterans; the bunkers are.

Return business is a touchy thing. The vast majority of regulars buy very little from the shop, very rarely would it be more than $50 a month. It's not that they go away, it's that they spend a lot less. My shop was unusual in that we had a high amount of turnaround, but we also had unusually high foot traffic.
We did get people that would routinely spend good amounts of money, but they are not the norm. The example I use is my gaming group. I, as a former employee, spend the most easily. I think my record worst I spend close to 7 grand in one year. In two years the other members have bought the starter box, harlequins, and codecies and that's it.

Lastly, recruitment is directly sales and redshirt directed. GW deliberately chooses stores with high foot traffic as a recruitment medium, and then if the red shirts are capable the intro games spawn new gamers, if temporary. The idea, once again, is to funnel players that turn into veterans to the bunkers.

You get about a 10% turnaround on an intro game. If you run 10, you'll get 1 person who will buy an intro box. It's not hard, especially on the weekend and a skilled crew, to run over 100 intro games on a saturday.

If you want an idea of how a GW store is doing, ask the store how many people are currently in their academy.

Kilkrazy wrote:If you assume that the majority of sales are to kids (which I am sure is true,) and kids don't care about balance, well-written rules or errata, then all is explained.

Is that a safe assumption, though? I'd say average playing age, excluding the Greybeards, is something like 27 at my store. Kids think that 40k is cool as hell, but in my experience lack both the financial leverage and commitment to be sustaining hobbyists.

As an aside, thank you scuddman, your posts have been some of the most informative I've read here. Please continue to share with us.

scuddman wrote:What else do you want?

I'm actually good with what you shared - it squares pretty well with what I'd expect.
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gorgon wrote:I think it's a lot like that with GW games and veterans.

But can I see a day in which I finally give them up, deciding they're for kids and not me? Yeah.

I can't see it. GW gaming is a great release for stress and stuff, it's a chance to kick back and not deal with work and home and all the other stuff. So I'm pretty happy with the way GW does stuff - it meets my needs as a casual gamer.

Now, if you're looking for a hardcore tournament experience, then GW probably isn't really for you. Sure, you've got Adepticon and the rest of the WAACy FAQing TFG events, but you're missing out that 40k is supposed to be a beer & pretzels game. If you screw up a rule, no biggie, you just adjust and make stuff come out "right". That's why GW has TMIR as the guiding principle.
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scuddman wrote:There's a reason why local gaming stores keep going out of business.

Totally agreed. Though I think that $300 per day ($100k/yr) excludes non-GW spend, which should be high due to things like Magic / Pokemon / Yugioh and hobby supplies, along with in-store event fees (RTTs, leagues, FNM, etc). If the store is run right, they should be grossing $250k+ annually, like a GW store.
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sourclams wrote:This might violate your PDA, although you've already been very explicit with the details, but do you realistically average 2 new people a day?

How much return business do you experience? I've spent about $4,000 on GW models in the last 18 months, across four armies. That was when I started playing 40k as a "serious" hobby. By all the feedback I receive, I break the mold for average expenditure by at least 4x, and probably closer to 8x.

GW stores are generally placed in high-visibility locations like shopping malls in major metro areas, and are set up as recruiter stations. GW doesn't set up in places like Podunk or Fargo. 12-15 n00bs per week isn't unreasonable.

If you're spending $2500/year, I think that's pretty high. For reference, I budget for less than $350/year, which is about 1/8 of your spend. When I was getting into Magic, I think I kept my card buys <$100/month, or $1k /year, still less than half of your burn rate. Nothing wrong with buying that much stuff, and good on you for being able to do so!
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Neconilis wrote:Why is it that there's this preconception that only tournament gamers want meaningful errata and FAQs?

I'm new to wargames, but I can tell you right now that I have no intention of ever playing in a tourney, yet I want the rules to be understandable and fairly balanced.

I've been playing RPGs for years, D&D especially, and no one is playing that in a competitive tournament for prizes like with Warhammer. Yet they constantly update that product with errata when there are mistakes and answer rules questions.

Also, we're not asking for a perfect game, that's impossible, we're asking for a better game, which most assuredly is.

Well, only tournament gamers *need* errata and FAQs, because all of their games are against strangers, and it's a non-friendly, competitive environment. Having prizes that only a small number of player can win further exacerbates the situation.

I think everybody wants good rules. We also want regular army updates. And there are over a dozen armies for 40k, over a dozen for Fantasy, and I think LotR is closing in on the army count as well. So if you look at 3 main games, with 30+ supported armies, an annual event on a 4-year cycle, plus special stuff like Apocalypse, Planetstrike - there's a lot of work and not a lot of time. And I think GW is trying to stabilize the gaming environment to some extent, to reduce the whipsawing.

Again, GW isn't a RPG, so the comparison isn't really relevant...

If you've played 40k for any length of time, it'd be pretty clear that things are pretty good right now. Not perfect, but very good.

When it comes to kids starting the game, we have a whole section in our training about talking to the parents. If the kid is 13 or under our instructions are that a parent needs to be there to run the intro game.

You'd be surprised what rich parents will buy for their kids. I remember one Mom just putting stuff on the counter, and when she finally finished, she was like, "Okay, there's stuff for one son!" She bought almost $800 that day. Her sons didn't play the game for longer than 3 months. They were also some of the worst academy students I've ever had the displeasure of teaching.

That's not the norm. Most of your beginners that turn into good, dedicated regulars are in your late teens. Late high school, college kids, people with lots of free time. Generally they'll spend a lot to start and then not spend at all once they have what they want. Your tournament gamer and your whiney kid exist but aren't usually what fuels the game. Your older demographic doesn't spend straight from the store. They'll buy GW stuff, but they know to buy it on ebay, or warstore, or whatever place is cheaper. Your average high school kid can't buy from ebay and doesn't have a credit card, so he'll buy from the store direct. Some old vets like to support the store and will buy from the store direct even though they're aware of pricing elsewhere.

Neconilis wrote:Why is it that there's this preconception that only tournament gamers want meaningful errata and FAQs? I'm new to wargames, but I can tell you right now that I have no intention of ever playing in a tourney, yet I want the rules to be understandable and fairly balanced. I've been playing RPGs for years, D&D especially, and no one is playing that in a competitive tournament for prizes like with Warhammer. Yet they constantly update that product with errata when there are mistakes and answer rules questions. Now I know some people will say, well their main product is the rules unlike GW, but the point still stands that whether you're trying to be king/queen of your geeky genre by toppling people at the world's largest tourney, or playing with friends in a basement, that you want rules that allow a fair game that are easy to understand and comprehend; and if they aren't you'd like the company that sold you those rules to fix them. Really, I just can not see how only WAAC guys want rules without errors, are understandable and allow for a fair game.

Also, I have to say personally that while I think the miniatures are cool, if there wasn't a game to play with it I wouldn't own more than one of any particular thing when one is good enough to sit on my shelf and look pretty. Also, if a game is easy to understand, has mistakes fixed and is fair; I'm likely to get more involved with it, play it more and buy more of what I need to play more. I really can't see me being the only one who feels that way either. It seems plain and simple to me.

Also, we're not asking for a perfect game, that's impossible, we're asking for a better game, which most assuredly is.

I'm with ya dude. I rarely ever go to tournaments and I would like better rules.

With everything said about them being a minis company I just wonder what is so hard about maybe answering rules questions that players have a little more often. People have been arguing that it would cost money to do drafts, pre release rules and revise books, but what does it cost to simply answer the questions that players want to know? Especially when it seems all they need to do most of the time is ask the developers what their intention was.

Is it really so difficult to append a FAQ? I don't understand the whole one FAQ and then that's it. I also don't understand how a faq (space marine faq) can be released that answers a bunch of questions that nobody was really asking and ignores all of the questions that people really wanted to know. I mean its called 'frequently asked questions' for pete's sake lol.

The only thing I can think of is that a faq is based on the rules questions that get asked through email or phone to gw. Which would make sense as many casual gamers will ask questions that more veteran players would see as obvious.

That's a good question and one that's asked often. There's two parts to this answer, neither of which I like.

1. The game designers don't get it. You know the guy who wrote Chaos codex 3.5? I forget his name. When someone pointed out that you could max on oblits and defilers he was like, "Why would you do that?" The concept of WAAC, mathhammer, etc. is alien to them. I wrote a long letter to Jervis about the need for mathhammer once. <shrug> They just don't think it's good for the game to think that way.

Edit: Let me clarify the difference. When I played Tekken with some GW buddies, they considered frame data cheating. Frame data tells me exactly how much recovery time a move has, and memorizing the information gives me a large working knowledge of how to punish any move when blocked, or how to abuse a move that gives you a frame advantage. The GW people considered frame data to ruin the game, and complained that it made "Tekken about numbers." An example of frame data advantage. In CVS2, if i block blanka ball standing up I recover quicker. Some characters can punish blanka ball only if they block it standing. If you didn't read the frame data you wouldn't know that, and you would think blank ball is safe on block.

2. The design crew has limited resources. Why spend effort on a faq? They're already overworked, underpaid, etc. After spending all that crap on limited game design, the last thing you want to do is work for free on a faq. Why work on a faq when you can work on the next release? It's already out, it's already too late, let's move on to the next project.

Lastly, remember what I said about game designers and magazine editors? These guys aren't paid six figures. Don't forget that.

focusedfire wrote:Your still young and have the illusion that getting older is about slaying your inner child.

Thats not what does it. It's parenthood that does it.
Once the kids are grown and supporting themselves you realize that one of the greatest pleasure of being a muture adult is letting the 10 year old lurking in the back of your brain out to play.

You just don't let him out unsupervised or you'll be dealin' with the coppers really quick.

You get to a point to where you just don't want to take things always so seriously any more.(This point usually starts when you have to start watching your blood pressure.)

LOL. I'm almost 40 and have a family.

It's not that I see myself getting out of gaming entirely. It's just that at some point, when a company keeps telling you "this is just for kids," and then treats their products accordingly, you kinda have to start listening.

If you have kids, you probably know the difference between say, Sesame Street and Barney, right? Although Sesame Street is for kids, the writers try to work in little winks and jokes for the parents. Meanwhile, Barney is ONLY for kids and is excruciating for a parent to watch. While I think GW tries to be Sesame Street, their overall trend is Barney-ward.

Eventually, I'll probably make a sidestep into historicals. I have a good start on a Macedonian army already.

Kilkrazy wrote:If you assume that the majority of sales are to kids (which I am sure is true,) and kids don't care about balance, well-written rules or errata, then all is explained.

My middle bro and I started playing the Star Wars CCG at 7 and 11, respectively. My brother's much less of a nerd than I am, but he made the craftiest decks that used subversive strategies. He and I knew all the errata, inside and out, even though it was a little booklet 50 pages long (Special Edition) as well as the 20-30 page rules documents. We would abuse the hell out of those rules, would point out loopholes in tourneys and tell them to the TOs and message boards so maybe someone would listen, and complain about the lack of balance when our respective loves (him and his bounty hunters, me and my rebel scouts) were out of whack with the rest of the other decks.

I think stereotyping kids into ADD-riddled know-nothings is really just the case of not giving them enough credit. When a grown man complains about orks, it's cuz he's reasoned it all out. When a kid does it, it's cuz he doesn't like his friend beating him all the time. Kids probably know when things are broken - they just don't communicate it effectively. I mean you don't take logic and game theory classes until much later so how can you?