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Alpharius wrote:Would a 'reasonable person' REALLY confuse Chapterhouse with GW?

I don't think so.

Why is someone unreasonable just because they don't know if Chapterhouse is GW backed or not? Forgeworld is, and they operate in much the same manner. Chapterhouse uses GW names and armies to advertise their products, and I can definitely see people being confused, especially on a market such as ebay.

timetowaste85 wrote:I just wanted to mention that this is actually not the case: GW gives permission in their rules of conversion in the legal section of their site that ONE converted model is ok, but multiple copies of a single model is considered an infringement on their intellectual property. This is actually available information in the legal section of their website (I was bored in a grad school class 2 years ago and found it). So no, they do not give customers permission to create derivitive "works"-just a single piece of derivitive work.

I'm fairly familiar with their statement. It looks like this:

GW's Legal Policies wrote:
Conversions

Conversions are a major aspect of the hobby, although in intellectual property terms, they also constitute a major infringement. However, we are certainly not about to stop people making cool conversions of our products, although, there are certain things to keep in mind:

Please do not combine our intellectual properties with IP owned by any third parties.
Your conversions should be one-time, unique masterpieces of hobby goodness. Do not create a production run of conversions for sale. Whilst infringing our IP, this is also simply not hobby.

Chapterhouse doesn't sell conversions. They do sell parts that can be used for conversions.

Here's how it looks to me: if GW didn't give permission to make conversions, they would have a stronger position to argue that "Any conversion kit leads to unlicensed derivative works being created!" However, in their legal statement, they a) acknowledge that it is usual practice in the field to convert minis; and b) give permission to make conversions. Add in all the options their rules provide, innumerable "how to convert for options that we don't make" articles over the years, and not a few White Dwarf features on armies with conversions, and it starts looking like a fairly broad implied license for their customers to modify GW's copyrighted works. The "do not combine our IPs with IP owned by any third parties" is pretty soft - any conversion work you do is likely to create IP not owned by GW, especially if there is any sculpting involved.

So, does it give rise to a cause of action, if a third-party offers instructions & parts for conversion? I'm hoping Chapterhouse can hang in there long enough to find out.

(edit: New page, and a bunch of new words, so repeating my earlier disclaimer:
While I am an attorney, I'm not YOUR attorney. My words are my opinion, and are not offered as legal advice for this or any other situation.)

Case: 1:10-cv-08103 Document #: 1 wrote:41. As a result of the foregoing, Games Workshop has received many customer
complaints and inquiries about Chapterhouse’s products, indicating that customers are confused
and will continue to be confused as to the origin and sponsorship of Chapterhouse’s products,
including whether Games Workshop has licensed Chapterhouse or otherwise given it authority to
produce the products being sold through the Website.

lolwut who's complaining? I want testimonies!

Janthkin, under their rules as written for Conversions, that would mean you could not even use non-GW hobby matterials at all right? Looks like they are contradicting them selfs right there.

ph34r wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Would a 'reasonable person' REALLY confuse Chapterhouse with GW?

I don't think so.

Why is someone unreasonable just because they don't know if Chapterhouse is GW backed or not? Forgeworld is, and they operate in much the same manner. Chapterhouse uses GW names and armies to advertise their products, and I can definitely see people being confused, especially on a market such as ebay.

Simply put because it isnt sold by GW and does not have GW labeling? I have been familiar with the site for years and if you were confused then you should be riding the short bus. I believe there is also a disclaimer at the base of his website

Chapterhouse Studios LLC has no affiliation with the Games Workshop. Space Marines, Imperial Fist, Blood Ravens, Soul Drinkers, Deathwatch, Dark Angels, Iron Snakes, Luna Wolves and all associated marks, names, races, race insignia, characters, vehicles, locations, units, illustrations and images from the Warhammer 40,000 universe are either ®, TM and/or © Copyright Games Workshop Ltd 2000-2009, variably registered in the UK and other countries around the world. Used without permission. No challenge to their status intended. All Rights Reserved to their respective owners. Throughout our website and miniature catalog these terms are used for identification purposes only.


It has been on his website for quite some time.

QUICKLY BUY ALL OF CHAPTERHOUSES STUFF!

paulson games wrote:However one point that I want to clear up is that I have never been a business associate of Chapterhouse nor even so much as spoken to Nick until Iafter I recieved the letter and called him to ask "wtf why are they saying I'm involved with your company?" I have had absolutely no connection to the super heavy assault walker kit at any point, I had absolutely no hand in it's design, creation or manufactuer. GW got their information on that completely wrong and have me confused with someone else.

Interesting... thanks for posting to clarify that!

I'm really disappointed with GW and their decision to sue ChapterHouse. If it wasn't for companies like ChapterHouse there wouldn't be as many unique designs for custom army. Another important matter is that GW don't have a leg to stay on. Many of their pieces that ChapterHouse makes, GW haven't attempt to make in the first place. As a player, we all know that GW sucks in making everthing in a Codex and has to depand their efforts on the customers and companies like ChapterHouse. There been cases where GW has taken custom models from players....StromRaven and Exoisit.

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:I'm really disappointed with GW and their decision to sue ChapterHouse. If it wasn't for companies like ChapterHouse there wouldn't be as many unique designs for custom army. Another important matter is that GW don't have a leg to stay on. Many of their pieces that ChapterHouse makes, GW haven't attempt to make in the first place.

What's your point? That doesn't mean that they're free-game for anyone in the world to stake claim to(which isn't what Chapterhouse did, but still. Just because it hasn't been made--doesn't mean it won't be).

As a player, we all know that GW sucks in making everything in a Codex and has to depend on the efforts of the customers and companies like ChapterHouse.

Uh, no they don't. They have Forge World for when they slack or if it's something they have no intention of ever making(and even that is going away, as they intend for every Codex entry to have a model--even if it won't be right at launch. Forge World is pretty much becoming obsolete for "filling" gaps, and is instead making their own stuff).

There have been cases where GW has taken custom models from players....Stormraven and Exorcist.

No, there hasn't. In fact, that's partially why everyone here was whining so much about the Stormraven. It looked nothing like the conversions people were doing.

blackclaw1 wrote:After reading through a link posted on bols that gives the full details i am in full support of gw , imho , chapterhouse were using tm-ed materials and as such gw should sue. especially about the parts where gw have received complaints because of chapterhouse's mistakes.


http://207.41.16.133/rfcViewFile/10cv8103.pdf

the link


'claw

Given the way that is written, I won't be surprised if GW tries to run a demo game/paint lesson for everyone in court.

Janthkin wrote:(edit: New page, and a bunch of new words, so repeating my earlier disclaimer:
While I am an attorney, I'm not YOUR attorney. My words are my opinion, and are not offered as legal advice for this or any other situation.)

I don't know man, I think you posting here is tantamount to you being on retainer for me. I'll cite Plessyfergesun v. Minesota Viking, esq. as precedent, quid pro quo, pro temp, ect ect.

Ahtman wrote:

Janthkin wrote:(edit: New page, and a bunch of new words, so repeating my earlier disclaimer:
While I am an attorney, I'm not YOUR attorney. My words are my opinion, and are not offered as legal advice for this or any other situation.)

I don't know man, I think you posting here is tantamount to you being on retainer for me. I'll cite Plessyfergesun v. Minesota Viking, esq. as precedent, quid pro quo, pro temp, ect ect.

Just for this, we need a tophatted Orkmoticon.
Make it so, lego!

No, there hasn't. In fact, that's partially why everyone here was whining so much about the Stormraven. It looked nothing like the conversions people were doing.

Uh...yeah there has...look at the Nurgle Demon Prince for 40K. IIRC that was actually a golden demon entry as well....

Surtur wrote:

blackclaw1 wrote:After reading through a link posted on bols that gives the full details i am in full support of gw , imho , chapterhouse were using tm-ed materials and as such gw should sue. especially about the parts where gw have received complaints because of chapterhouse's mistakes.


http://207.41.16.133/rfcViewFile/10cv8103.pdf

the link


'claw

Given the way that is written, I won't be surprised if GW tries to run a demo game/paint lesson for everyone in court.

Lol, i wouldn't either. I do hope chapterhouse wins though, as i have plans to buy from them

Fishboy wrote:

No, there hasn't. In fact, that's partially why everyone here was whining so much about the Stormraven. It looked nothing like the conversions people were doing.

Uh...yeah there has...look at the Nurgle Demon Prince for 40K. IIRC that was actually a golden demon entry as well....

And the sculptor(Seb Perbert) was compensated for it, along with when it was first released him being given a whole multi-page master-class article about how he painted it and what gave him the idea for it. I think he was even hired on full-time as a sculptor because of that model.

So yeah. You were saying?

Okay.
So, I've read the whole thread and the whole 19 page filing.
While I admit that I'm taking an "average Joe" look at things, as opposed to a "legal" view, I stress that I'm expressing my OPINIONS and not trying to make claims that they're facts or legally sound!

Looks like GW is suing Chapterhouse for copyright? Chapterhouse added a disclaimer to their site just now, not a good sign. I hope they don't have to shut down :(

If you're referring to the following quote, I think it's been there for a long time:

For Legal and Clarification Purposes - Chapterhouse Studios LLC is not affiliated or in anyway endorced by Games Workshop PLC. We do not work for them or produce any components for them in anyway. Everything we sculpt and work on is from scratch and does not originate from any Games Workshop PLC models.

Someone, please, correct me if I'm wrong. I know someone else pointed it out, too... but I think it's been therea while, as I KNOW I've read it before.

17. Games Workshop’s “Forge World” division has for eleven years been selling conversion kits, replacement doors, and additional products for its customers made to fit existing WARHAMMER and WARHAMMER 40,000 products to use to decorate and modify their models for use in connection with the WARHAMMER and WARHAMMER 40,000 games.

Well, there's a lie right there. Everyone knows FW pieces DON'T fit.

36. Defendants’ development, production, marketing, and sale of their derivative works based on Games Workshop’s proprietary works preempts Games Workshop’s ability to develop and sell its own such derivative works and compete directly with Games Workshop’s “Forge World” products.

Another fallacy. FW doesn't support player desire for conversion bits HALF as good as Chapterhouse. IMO, there is no competition.

40. Upon information and belief, such references create an association in the minds of customers between Defendants’ products and those of Games Workshop and give the false impression that Chapterhouse’s products are licensed by or endorsed by Games Workshop or are otherwise associated with Plaintiff.

I doubt that even the "haters" in the audience will agree that CH tries to give the impression that their bits were licensed or endorsed by GW.
Hopefully, CH's lawyer will be smart enough to point this out and provide testimony to support it.

51. Defendants’ conduct as aforesaid has caused great and irreparable injury to Plaintiff, and unless such conduct is enjoined, it will continue and Plaintiff will continue to suffer great and irreparable injury.

Yes. Now GW can no longer sell the conversion pieces that they never intended to sell anyway.
Oh, wait...


The only irreparaable injury done to GW is being done by their legal team!

60. The above-described conduct of Chapterhouse constitutes use of false designations of origin and false and misleading descriptions or representations that are likely to cause confusion, to cause mistake, or to mislead as to the affiliation, connection, or association of Chapterhouse or its goods or services, with Plaintiff and its goods and services in violation of 15 U.S.C. §1125(a).

I don't see what CH has done that qualifies for this. As I stated above, no reasonable person would think they are or are claiming to be licensed by GW.

61. Chapterhouse’s conduct as aforesaid has caused great and irreparable injury to Plaintiff, and unless such conduct is enjoined, it will continue and Plaintiff will continue to suffer great and irreparable injury.

There's that phrase again...

75. Upon information and belief, Chapterhouse have/has knowingly made false and misleading representations as to the source of its goods and services, and knowingly made false representations as to its affiliation with Plaintiff.

Pfft! Shenanigans.

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:

40. Upon information and belief, such references create an association in the minds of customers between Defendants’ products and those of Games Workshop and give the false impression that Chapterhouse’s products are licensed by or endorsed by Games Workshop or are otherwise associated with Plaintiff.

I doubt that even the "haters" in the audience will agree that CH tries to give the impression that their bits were licensed or endorsed by GW.
Hopefully, CH's lawyer will be smart enough to point this out and provide testimony to support it.

Uh, actually...
Just look at Chapterhouse's page header above their dropdown menu. "Specializing in Custom Bits and Sculpts for Warhammer 40,000 and Fantasy".

If you or I didn't frequent this site, or look down to the bottom of CH's page, etc...it'd be fairly easy to think they were "endorsed" by GW just by that tagline.

51. Defendants’ conduct as aforesaid has caused great and irreparable injury to Plaintiff, and unless such conduct is enjoined, it will continue and Plaintiff will continue to suffer great and irreparable injury.

Yes. Now GW can no longer sell the conversion pieces that they never intended to sell anyway.

Says who? Look into the SM shoulderpad bits that Chapterhouse sells. Almost every single one of them has a Forge World or Games Workshop produced equivalent.

60. The above-described conduct of Chapterhouse constitutes use of false designations of origin and false and misleading descriptions or representations that are likely to cause confusion, to cause mistake, or to mislead as to the affiliation, connection, or association of Chapterhouse or its goods or services, with Plaintiff and its goods and services in violation of 15 U.S.C. §1125(a).

I don't see what CH has done that qualifies for this. As I stated above, no reasonable person would think they are or are claiming to be licensed by GW.

It's probably due to the fact if one were to just Google "40k Space Marine conversion kits"...Chapterhouse actually crops up more than GW.

Uh, actually...
Just look at Chapterhouse's page header above their dropdown menu. "Specializing in Custom Bits and Sculpts for Warhammer 40,000 and Fantasy".

Yeah. So?
That statement doesn't imply permission or licensing. It simply states what games the pieces are intended for use with.

If you or I didn't frequent this site, or look down to the bottom of CH's page, etc...it'd be fairly easy to think they were "endorsed" by GW just by that tagline.

I disagree. Furthermore, your statement could also be turned to state that even Dakka implies they are endorsed by them.
The top of my screen says "DakkaDakka - Warhammer 40K forums."
Dakka Dakka has LONG been used to denote Ork shooting, and, well, the rest is self explanatory.
Scroll down just a bit to see all of the WHFB & 40K forums and... well, assumptions could be made.
That is as ridiculous (again, IMO) as presuming Ch implies consent/official licensing because they say their bits are FOR some game.

Says who? Look into the SM shoulderpad bits that Chapterhouse sells. Almost every single one of them has a Forge World or Games Workshop produced equivalent.

Many, if not most or all of which were produced by CH first.
Plus, shoulder pads are just a portion of what CH has. What about the rest of their product lines?

It's probably due to the fact if one were to just Google "40k Space Marine conversion kits"...Chapterhouse actually crops up more than GW.

Is that so difficult to believe?
Look at how they market their stuff compared to CH. Looking on the GW site, I see "Black Templars Chapter Upgrade."
I see "Dark Angels Chapter Upgrade Frame."
I see "Space Wolves Accessories Frame."

I don't see them using the term "conversion kits."
I googled "40k Space Marine upgrade"
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=40k+Space+Marine+upgrade&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
Page 1 has a number of GW links. No Chapterhouse links on the first page.

Here's the link for "40k Space marine Accessories."
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=40k+Space+Marine+accessories&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
The first link os for GW. the second is for FW.
Once again, no CH links on the first page.

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:

Uh, actually...
Just look at Chapterhouse's page header above their dropdown menu. "Specializing in Custom Bits and Sculpts for Warhammer 40,000 and Fantasy".

Yeah. So?
That statement doesn't imply permission or licensing. It simply states what games the pieces are intended for use with.

Yet it doesn't say "Unofficial Producer of Custom Bits and Sculpts for Warhammer 40,000 and Fantasy". Which is where the confusion can crop up.

Remember, we're looking at it from "Average Joe's" perspective. Most players don't use forums such as Dakka Dakka or B&C.

If you or I didn't frequent this site, or look down to the bottom of CH's page, etc...it'd be fairly easy to think they were "endorsed" by GW just by that tagline.

I disagree. Furthermore, your statement could also be turned to state that even Dakka implies they are endorsed by them.
The top of my screen says "DakkaDakka - Warhammer 40K forums."
Dakka Dakka has LONG been used to denote Ork shooting, and, well, the rest is self explanatory.
Scroll down just a bit to see all of the WHFB & 40K forums and... well, assumptions could be made.
That is as ridiculous (again, IMO) as presuming Ch implies consent/official licensing because they say their bits are FOR some game.

The difference is that Dakka Dakka isn't a "for profit" entity.
Chapterhouse is.

Says who? Look into the SM shoulderpad bits that Chapterhouse sells. Almost every single one of them has a Forge World or Games Workshop produced equivalent.

Many, if not most or all of which were produced by CH first.
Plus, shoulder pads are just a portion of what CH has. What about the rest of their product lines?

So Dark Angels, Salamanders, Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, Space Wolves, Fleshtearers, Deathwatch, Inquisition, and Black Templar shoulderpads were produced by Chapterhouse first?
I want some of what you're smoking, because apparently it distorts space+time.

As for the "rest of their product lines"...a lot of that stuff is supposedly going to be produced by GW "Soon-ish".

It's probably due to the fact if one were to just Google "40k Space Marine conversion kits"...Chapterhouse actually crops up more than GW.

Is that so difficult to believe?
Look at how they market their stuff compared to CH. Looking on the GW site, I see "Black Templars Chapter Upgrade."
I see "Dark Angels Chapter Upgrade Frame."
I see "Space Wolves Accessories Frame."

And? That doesn't change anything. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that an "Upgrade" or "Accessory" frame is a "Conversion Kit".

I don't see them using the term "conversion kits."
I googled "40k Space Marine upgrade"
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=40k+Space+Marine+upgrade&btnG=Search&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
Page 1 has a number of GW links. No Chapterhouse links on the first page.
Here's the link for "40k Space marine Accessories."
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=40k+Space+Marine+accessories&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
The first link is for GW. the second is for FW.
Once again, no CH links on the first page.
Eric

Okay, and? What's your point? That GW needs to name their kits better?

GW works by fear. They're hoping to make this so costly that CH has to back down.

GW wants the law applied in a way that treats their models as art, hence all their legalese about each conversion being a unique piece that they give permission. If the law looks at the model kits and their intended use as something other than unique artistic works, than the law becomes much the same as cars and aftermarket automotive parts and GW is left with a lot less protection.

The simple fact is that what Chapterhouse does is in the spirit of the model building hobby that existed before GW ever did. Companies and individuals have produced conversion kits to modify other companies model kits since at least the 50's.

This leaves only GWs complaints on the use of trademarks and perceived diminished value. The first is whether you can make reference to something with out claiming ownership. GW says no, Chapterhouse says yes. This comes to nominative fair use. It is acceptable to describe one product with reference to another persons IP, if its necessary to the character of the item. The clincher is that this defense is not applicable if GW can show reasonable product confusion, hence why they are so insistent in this notion in their filing. In determining if there is intended confusion, the court will consider the presence of a trademark and copyright notice, but that doesn't free CH of its burden to avoid confusion. The court will consider how the trade mark is used and the prominence with which it is used; as an example does it say "ELDAR-blank" or "Blank-conversion kit for Eldar".

The way the law is, GW is trying to have it two ways at the same time. It is either a unique artistic work or its a modular model kit composed of unique parts. Look at LEGO, they hold ownership of the design of each individual component they make but because of the intended interchangeability the individual kits and pieces there is no claim to ownership over those collection of protected parts. GW wants that type of protection while simultaneously claiming the final assembled configuration being equivalent to the Mona Lisa, that is uniquely protected from derivation. Philosophically it comes down to where the artistic work is with relation to the intended use. Do we have artistic pieces intended for interchangeable use or do we have something intended to be assembled into the artistic work, where by each assembly is a unique instance. If it is the first, than its perfectly legitimate to produce new components separate from GW; if its the latter than any use beyond how GW wants you to assemble becomes a violation of GW's rights.

GW wants us to believe we're all violators but given special permission to do so and that each. Every time someone supports GW's view, they support the notion that almost all of us are unprosecuted violators of civil law.

While GW would like to continue to bully, belief in GW's position means ignoring the history of the industry with which it is a part of. Just because their prominence has grown that industry doesn't mean it can then ignore the nature of it. If Ford were to market a car for hotroders, it is reasonable to expect those people to do such work on that car; just as if GW wants to sell models in a hobby known for conversion work, with the blatant promotion of converting as an aspect of their hobby, it is reasonable to expect people to do just that and for the industry they are apart of to adapt as it historically has to the trends within it.

Panic wrote:yeah,
Hahahahahaahahaa I'm glad.
Chapter houses attitude sux chunks.
Most of their stuff is terrible anyway.

Panic...

Thanks Panic, sarcastic or not, you're as neutral as ever.

While I think GW is overreacting, aka_mythos, you make them sound like they're the mafia/mob. I do not buy my minis because my family's business will be burned down if I don't. If you do, you might want to report this.

GW has a good thing going, they just want to protect this. REALLY protect, as in latch onto and fight/kill anything that is not their own, messing with their product. I don't think chapterhouse has done anything wrong; they have all the right disclaimers & whatnot (to my untrained eye). Maybe they missed a (tm) symbol somewhere, that is legal grounds(once again, I am not a lawyer, but I'm pretty darn sure), and from what little experience I have with legal suits, they are (from what I've seen) packed FULL of ridiculous claims, as the prosecutor tries to take whatever they can get form the defendent, and 90% of said claims are ignored. If an actually attorney with experience in suits, torts, ect. could fact check/back me up, or refute me as needed, that would be great.

GW has a history of pursuing companies that have done far less than CH and to the detriment of this hobby have forced several of these companies out of business not by substantiated proof of law but by pushing fear of litigation. By being overbearing and by habitually intimidating those in a weaker position than them, they are the definition of a bully.

Glad I already got my order in.

I hope you guys get through this ok. This is GW being douche-y.

I'll prob throw another order your way shortly.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I suspect that CH will end up having to remove any GW refernces on thier site if they are going to continue business.

ironicsilence wrote:As someone who used to live in cook county....I can assure you that the winner of this case will likely be the side that "greases" the cogs of the legal system

But surely GW are untrustworthy foreigners who are suing honest, tax-paying, hardworking Americans?

MagickalMemories wrote:Yes. Now GW can no longer sell the conversion pieces that they never intended to sell anyway.
Oh, wait...

I don't see why people think they have some kind of right to have pieces on the market. GW has the right to not produce anything they like and it doesn't mean anyone can come along and just fill those holes. By your logic, Chapterhouse or another company would be within their rights to produce, say, Wracks or Razorwing swarms (with those exact names, even!) because GW isn't.

That doesn't mean a sensible company can't get away with marketing "shambling mutants" or "fleshripper swarms", but that's never been Chapterhouse's style. They've always called a spade a spade.

44. Chapterhouse’s use of the Games Workshops trademarks, including without
limitation the marks WARHAMMER, WARHAMMER 40,000, 40K, SPACE MARINE,
CHAOS SPACE MARINES, ELDAR, ELDAR FARSEER, ELDAR JETBIKE, ELDAR
WARLOCK, ELDAR SEER COUNCIL, TYRANID, ADEPTUS MECHANICUS, BLOOD
ANGELS, DARK ANGELS, BLOOD RAVENS MARINES, IMPERIAL GUARD, BLACK
TEMPLARS, ALPHA LEGION, BONESWORD, CARNIFLEX, CRIMSON FISTS, FLESH
TEARERS, GENESTEALER, GAUNT, HERESY ARMOUR, HORUS HERESY, HOWLING
GRIFFONS, IRON HANDS, IMPERIAL FISTS, LASHWHIP, LEGION OF THE DAMNED,
LIGHTNING CLAW, LIONS RAMPANT, LUNA WOLVES, MANTIS WARRIORS, MK
ARMOUR, MYCETIC SPORE, RHINO, SALAMANDER, SONS OF RUSS, SOUL
DRINKER, SPACE WOLVES, STAR FOX, SWARMLORD, TECHMARINES, TAU,
THUNDER ARMOUR, THUNDER HAMMER, TERMAGANTS, TERVIGON, and YMGARL
(among others) are likely to cause confusion, to cause mistake, or to deceive.

Carni... flex?

Padre wrote:I don't know which is sadder...

Whether :

A) once again GW's legal department are cutting off their nose to spite their face (let's face it, it's a fact that you need to buy GW product to use Chapterhouse product...it augments, it doesn't replace)

OR

B) That this thread has already started to show the juvenile, petty, "kick 'em while they're down from the safety of my computer" nastiness, that I'm sure will characterise any discussion on this issue.

Padre^.

I agree..

What's kind of sad is that so used to have we become to GW hanging over other companies heads with a giant mallet, that its now become the acceptable way to behave.
And what is worse for me, and genuinely a little disheartening, is that people seem happy about this, when they upshot is that as gamers and modellers we will have less components to use - and in any situation how can that be a good thing? That GW have a 'right' to do it shouldn't be the issue here, the hobby is going to be worse off because of it (and we have to wonder what will be next - Maxmini perhaps, or even the bits websites?)

Whatever1 wrote:As far as "great and irreparable injury",they certainly have a case. Wasn't the rumored Tyranid 2nd wave suppossed to include both a Tervigon kit and a direct-only Warrior Bonesword upgrade sprue? If people are buying Chapterhouse's conversions,then they're not buying GW's Tervigon kit or upgrade sprue when they come out(or are less likely,anyways). The Tervigon kit will probably be at least a $50 kit like the Trygon,while the Carnifex kit Chapterhouse's conversion is based off of is $45,so GW loses money there. If people are buying Chapterhouse's Boneswords,then people aren't buying GW's sprue,so they lose money there,too. Ultimately,Chapterhouse's entire buisness is based off infringing on GW's IP,copyrights,and trademarks,so whatever "great and irreparable injury" GW has taken is pretty much every dollar Chapterhouse has ever made.

But isn't this GW's fault, that they can't deliver what the customer wants? The only reason they can do this, it that GW started this releasing new armies in waves in the first place.

Polonius wrote:

Chapterhouse wrote:Unfortunately, unless you have a hell of a good judge, it matters little if you are in the legal right or not. Anyone can sue anyone and hope they cry uncle because of the legal cost.

I'm not an IP lawyer, or even a litigator, but alas they have the crux of the real strategy here.

On issues of substantive law, Janthkin has explained more than I could. The problem is that winning this case could cost tens of thousands of dollars.

And yes, an initial pleading should read like the defendant has done the worst thing imaginable. You're advocating for your client, not trying to be fair.

Everytime I hear about something like this can't believe that this system actually works. Makes me lose faith in humanity.

Actually GW does not even need to have a substantial case. It is enough to keep the opponent from the selling his stuff for some time. Most small companies are easily killed this way.

On the other hand GW as quite an interesting history of "borrowing" designs from people applying for a job at GW. It states in their legal stuff that every design you provide them with when applying becomes theirs. Only way to avoid this is creating a website putting legal text on it and giving GW just the link.

Ever wondered why a certain Tau unit is edgier than the rest of the army? Well, there is person that still has the original design program files that predate the GW design by at least 1-2 years and are very similar.

Hmm.. maybe not the best time to be considering doing female Cadian and ganger Guard male/female torsos and then selling excess to the masses then?


Regarding Chapterhouse, it sadly does seem the overall goal by GW here to end the company via legal fees.

We've seen that here, member of staff totally in the wrong, but because we got the procedures wrong, it would have cost us Seven Thousand pounds to win the case.
Which although we have no doubt we would have done, it was cheaper to just settle for a grand.