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How Ironstrider compares to Eldar War Walker? Not bad IMO.

 Toofast wrote:
Dreads take more effort to kill than the equivalent points in tac marines and can put out as much firepower and they're so awful that nobody fields them any more.

Well you ARE comparing a bad unit with a even worse unit.

What I would like to discuss here is the two infantry squads, Vanguards and Rangers, what their most advantageous loadouts are and what actual role they are best at fulfilling on the battlefield. How does the Skitarii fit into an overall plan for victory in a Maelstrom or Eternal War objective game? How should they be used, and do other units simply fill this role better than the Skitarii?

For Rangers, I think the loadout is quite obvious. The firepower that 3 Arc Rifles put out at RF range means 6 haywire shots at BS4. Can take an Arc pistol on the sergeant as well for an extra one. This unit will do well in a rent-a-drop pod.

For the Vanquard I think no special weapons might actually be what the doctor ordered, as the Rad carbines may be their best option. 2 auto-wounds on a 6 is very good. But really what do you actually do with these guys? Where on the battlefield do they go? Do they hide, sit on an objective, or do they need a transport to move up the battlefield?

Thoughts?

 Toofast wrote:

 thegreatchimp wrote:

 Toofast wrote:
45-55 points that will be gone before it kills anything against a competent opponent.

Any less survivable than a landspeeder for similar points?

Yes, the land speeder gets a jink save. How many land speeders have you seen on top tables at GTs? I can count them on one hand.

I don't play tournaments so I wouldn't know, fair enough if you're more keyed into that scene. The walker just doesn't seem like bad value compared to vehicles or equivalent value in the codexes....codices...or whatever the plural of that word is.

I haven't figured that out yet either...

At 1740 you get

6x 10 skitarii with 3 arc rifles
3x 3 Dragoons
3x 3 iron striders

I wouldn't say that's a terrible army, especially with 18 haywire shots at 30" or 36 shots at 18" coming from the infantry you are likely to ignore.

Also depends on the orders, the HQs and the Elites, but its not looking too bad. Probably wont be top tier but it'll screw with some people

These special weapons are so strangely priced; the arc rifle is really good and it is cheapest of them. I really like hove the arquebus looks, but I have hard time justifying the cost, even on a backfield objective camper squad.

 Crimson wrote:
These special weapons are so strangely priced; the arc rifle is really good and it is cheapest of them. I really like hove the arquebus looks, but I have hard time justifying the cost, even on a backfield objective camper squad.

it's pretty short ranged though so I imagine units with Arc rifles will soak up a lot of fire getting into range

blaktoof wrote:


One of the units basic weapons is 30" ap 4 precision shots. The Other is s3 but 6s auto wound anything and cause 2 wounds. So far all the things are quite inexpensive pointswise.

Could those rad skitarii actually be the nasty ones?

9ppm, BS4, A3 and any 6 to wound causes 2 wounds.
Compare that to Guardsmen, massed lasgun fire.
The skitarii are getting 3 times as many shots when outside rapidfire range. Against T4 they are generating 50% more wounds per hit. They are BS4 so they are hitting more often. They do cost nearly double, but it isnt bad.

10 of them naked will put 10 wounds on anything T4 and 6.6 wounds on anything T5 or above before saves.

The same points of guardsmen are only putting out 3.3 wounds against T4 and 1.6 against T5, doubled if in rapid fire range.

Maybe it's just theory hammer, maybe T3, 4+ FNP6+ will be wiped off the board before it ever gets near anything, but it doesnt look bad.


Coincidentally, they are also pretty good at putting wounds on Wraithknights, if they get close. Certainly far better than guardsmen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
These special weapons are so strangely priced; the arc rifle is really good and it is cheapest of them. I really like hove the arquebus looks, but I have hard time justifying the cost, even on a backfield objective camper squad.

The arquebus is too expensive. Yay it's an AP3 sniper rifle with huge range and armor bane. Not worth it when it limits the squad and costs a ton.
The plasma beasty is a plasma beast. 2 of these guys will put out more shots than 3 guys with plasma guns at 6" further out. Still probably should have been 25 points rather than 30.
The Phosphor weapons are silly. You wont hit and wound that often with them, so you wont get the cover save bonus. They are expensive and limited in where they can go.
The arc weapons are AWESOME. 24" haywire just like the DE HWB, except you get str6 and can double tap. Only 50% more than a melta gun.

In short, everyone will go for Arc weapons.

A triple plasma culiver squad will be worth it if there is a decently cheap way to give them PE or Twin-Linked. My thoughts are perhaps stuffing them and a divination Inquisitor in a Valkyrie (12 man transport cap.) and drop them next to a unit. Problem is that flier is going to have a lot of points riding inside of it.

 Exergy wrote:
The arc weapons are AWESOME. 24" haywire just like the DE HWB, except you get str6 and can double tap. Only 50% more than a melta gun.

In short, everyone will go for Arc weapons.

I agree. The Haywire is crazy good and not over costed.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
These special weapons are so strangely priced; the arc rifle is really good and it is cheapest of them. I really like hove the arquebus looks, but I have hard time justifying the cost, even on a backfield objective camper squad.

it's pretty short ranged though so I imagine units with Arc rifles will soak up a lot of fire getting into range

30" isn't that short of range. They all have relentless so every arc rifle has a 30" threat range. That's more than enough.

foto69man wrote:

Murrdox wrote:
I'm curious how well Skitarii would work allied with a Taghmata Omnissiah or a Legio Cybernetica. I've been thinking of building a Mechanicum army for awhile now, but mostly the cost has held me at bay so far.

Looking this over though, I don't think it would work very well either as fluff or not. Some of the rules are a little bit synergistic but for the most part they use completely different equipment and special rules. Also just from a fluff perspective I'm not sure it makes a whole lot of sense? I've read the Forgeworld books regarding the Mechanicum, but I don't know a lot about the Skitarii.

Unless you house rule it, you can't ally 30k Mechanicum and 40k Adeptus Mechanicus. And you really wouldn't need to as the 30k Mechanicum is easily good enough on its own.

Let's be honest, as soon as FW gets a bit further into the Horus Heresy and covers the war on Mars, they will probably do an Imperial Armor book to allow many of those units into 40k.

 aka_mythos wrote:

foto69man wrote:

Murrdox wrote:
I'm curious how well Skitarii would work allied with a Taghmata Omnissiah or a Legio Cybernetica. I've been thinking of building a Mechanicum army for awhile now, but mostly the cost has held me at bay so far.

Looking this over though, I don't think it would work very well either as fluff or not. Some of the rules are a little bit synergistic but for the most part they use completely different equipment and special rules. Also just from a fluff perspective I'm not sure it makes a whole lot of sense? I've read the Forgeworld books regarding the Mechanicum, but I don't know a lot about the Skitarii.

Unless you house rule it, you can't ally 30k Mechanicum and 40k Adeptus Mechanicus. And you really wouldn't need to as the 30k Mechanicum is easily good enough on its own.

Let's be honest, as soon as FW gets a bit further into the Horus Heresy and covers the war on Mars, they will probably do an Imperial Armor book to allow many of those units into 40k.

Good call I think. I hadn't considered that possibility.

The other thing to consider... FW is covering Dark Mechanicum in their Horus Heresy series and given the unlikelyness that GW will do Dark Mechanicum in 40k such an Imperial Armor book is probably the best bet for Dark Mechanicum in 40k.

The arquebus is too expensive. Yay it's an AP3 sniper rifle with huge range and armor bane. Not worth it when it limits the squad and costs a ton.

how does it limit the squad? remember they're relentless it can fire on the move

BrianDavion wrote:

The arquebus is too expensive. Yay it's an AP3 sniper rifle with huge range and armor bane. Not worth it when it limits the squad and costs a ton.

how does it limit the squad? remember they're relentless it can fire on the move

It limits them because it's targets will be different. They dont have split fire.

 Exergy wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

The arquebus is too expensive. Yay it's an AP3 sniper rifle with huge range and armor bane. Not worth it when it limits the squad and costs a ton.

how does it limit the squad? remember they're relentless it can fire on the move

It limits them because it's targets will be different. They dont have split fire.

That we know of right now.

Doctrina Imperatives still have to be revealed as to what they are.

The same could be said of melta and plasma guns in infantry squads, or basically any heavy weapon. Doesn't stop you seeing them.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The same could be said of melta and plasma guns in infantry squads, or basically any heavy weapon. Doesn't stop you seeing them.

with plasma, you are adding anti infantry to a squad with anti infantry weapons. Melta are cheap things to open tanks, you are going to use them every turn of the game, but they serve a well defined purpose. I suppose you could the snipers on a squad of the 30" precision shot guys and try to snipe heavy weapons guys or sergents. Still its a lot of points.

The sniper rifle might not be optimal in this squad, but it has such a high range you'll almost always have something you can shoot at. A back field squad or squad on the wrong end of the table aren't effectively out of the game just because of it.

I think some of my Skitarii will get the sniper rifles for the simple reason that the kit comes only with one arc rifle. Oh well, at least they will look cool.

You know what I just realized?

The infantry kit doesn't come with the "long" base for the Sniper-rifle. According to the product page be just get 10 25mm bases.

Boo... Even just for aesthetics I wanted to build a few of those.

 Exergy wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
The same could be said of melta and plasma guns in infantry squads, or basically any heavy weapon. Doesn't stop you seeing them.

with plasma, you are adding anti infantry to a squad with anti infantry weapons. Melta are cheap things to open tanks, you are going to use them every turn of the game, but they serve a well defined purpose. I suppose you could the snipers on a squad of the 30" precision shot guys and try to snipe heavy weapons guys or sergents. Still its a lot of points.

yeash it's a lot of points and I doubt you'll see a lotta em, but they'll definatly fit in with rangers. I can't see anyone bothering with them on vanguards unless they wanna give the squad some ability to lay down fire while they close.

Rangers feel a little underwhelming. I LOVE their look much more than Vanguard, but more points for Move-Through-Cover, and longer ranged, but generally less wound-creating guns almost feels like a flat down-grade.

The designer in me would much rather ditch move-through-cover but add Scout/Infiltrate.

I'm kind of curious and potentially running an army of maxed out Dragoons and Iron Striders. love the idea of a super fast army that actually can hurt on the charge (S8) with several Ironstrider gun platforms for providing fire support.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Rangers feel a little underwhelming. I LOVE their look much more than Vanguard, but more points for Move-Through-Cover, and longer ranged, but generally less wound-creating guns almost feels like a flat down-grade.

The designer in me would much rather ditch move-through-cover but add Scout/Infiltrate.

I dunno, I think rangers are intended to be the back end units. It'd be intreasting to see how Skiratii rangers stack us vs fire warriors.

my gut feeling is Rangers would come out on top.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Rangers feel a little underwhelming. I LOVE their look much more than Vanguard, but more points for Move-Through-Cover, and longer ranged, but generally less wound-creating guns almost feels like a flat down-grade.

The designer in me would much rather ditch move-through-cover but add Scout/Infiltrate.

I'm the opposite actually XD I love the looks and rules of the ranges much more. high rate of precision shots sounds like a dream come true

 BoomWolf wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Rangers feel a little underwhelming. I LOVE their look much more than Vanguard, but more points for Move-Through-Cover, and longer ranged, but generally less wound-creating guns almost feels like a flat down-grade.

The designer in me would much rather ditch move-through-cover but add Scout/Infiltrate.

I'm the opposite actually XD I love the looks and rules of the ranges much more. high rate of precision shots sounds like a dream come true

But is it a high rate of shots? It's only Rapid Fire at 15', meaning for LESS points, at 18' Vanguards get significantly MORE shots, and more over-all wounds between the shots and Rad special rule. Plus, Vanguard range synergizes better with the likely common Arc Rifles/Rapid Fire Haywire.

Like I said, I LOVE how Rangers look, but I think Vanguard may just outright be "better" if you're being a hardcore number cruncher.

 Crimson wrote:
I think some of my Skitarii will get the sniper rifles for the simple reason that the kit comes only with one arc rifle. Oh well, at least they will look cool.

It only comes with one sniper rifle too. So if you buy 3 kits you can have 1 squad of rangers with 3 sniper rifles, 1 squad of vanguard with plasma, and 1 squad of vanguard with arc rifles


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Rangers feel a little underwhelming. I LOVE their look much more than Vanguard, but more points for Move-Through-Cover, and longer ranged, but generally less wound-creating guns almost feels like a flat down-grade.

The designer in me would much rather ditch move-through-cover but add Scout/Infiltrate.

I dunno, I think rangers are intended to be the back end units. It'd be intreasting to see how Skiratii rangers stack us vs fire warriors.

my gut feeling is Rangers would come out on top.

Im not so sure. Unsupported the rangers are certainly more versitile, with precision shots and all. Hitting on 3s wounding on 3s is better than hitting on 4s wounding on 2s. The rangers cost more though right...
Nevermind, forgot to factor in the FNP. It would be enough to push them over the top in an unsurpoted dueloff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:


But is it a high rate of shots? It's only Rapid Fire at 15', meaning for LESS points, at 18' Vanguards get significantly MORE shots, and more over-all wounds between the shots and Rad special rule. Plus, Vanguard range synergizes better with the likely common Arc Rifles/Rapid Fire Haywire.

Like I said, I LOVE how Rangers look, but I think Vanguard may just outright be "better" if you're being a hardcore number cruncher.

I agree. I think the Vanguard are the mainstay of the army from what we have seen so far. They put out a ton of wounds at 18" less. I cant imagine giving the enemy -1 T will win them many assaults, but it wont hurt them in assault either.