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{sorry, that was a mean-spirited comment}

Quantitative soft scores per player, decided by the opponent, seems a poor plan, to me. Too open to abuse.

We've tried favoured player voting, plus favoured / least favoured.

Anythig reliant on one person, especially the opponent - can easily be gamed.

Least favoured - you would say after the game they were in that camp, and why, to the TO. This allows them to determine if there are measures that can be put in place for the next game, and also acts as a deterrent from just "bombing" someone - if your reasons dont seem to stack up, and you arent balance of probabilities level of authoentic sounding, then your report would be placed in the "suspect" pile - your credibility is important here.

If 2 or more people slate the same person, then their chances of winning the event were seriously reduced

HOwever, in terms of "TFG" at various events, I can only think of maybe a handful out of probably 4 - 500 different opponents over the years.

Makumba -I do feel sorry for your local scene. Seems appalling. ALso I would rather HELP my oppponent in that situation - if I lose to the eventual winner that is better than losing to someone in mid table obscurity, surely?

Hell at the last (doubles) tournament hubby and I played - little shop tourney, 10 teams so nothing at all really - we got drawn against 2 kids who, with the best will in the world, are not the best at understanding the game. However we coached them into not just playing kill-that-guy, but showed how playing to the mission - which favoured their army - they would likely beat us. They were well up on points, we had to go for a wipeout, and it came down to as close to 50:50 as you can get in the end - a single Necron bike charging their last unit - 3 fire warriors with sarge, kills 1 FW, winning by 1, to make them test on Ld7. They pass, they win. They fail, we win. They passed. We all cheered, as the game itself was more important than the winners or losers.

Apparently the shop guy saw how we helped them, and the attitude, and we won best sports just from that. THat was way better than winning overall (which, somehow, we also managed)

 Vector Strike wrote:
Next step: people with bad skillz at gaming should not go to stores as well. Imagine, playing with them in MY LFGS while I could have been playing with better players!

Non-competitive players should play only inside their garages, away from my prying eyes!

Screw this, man. go the extra mile. Non-competitive players, those dirty peasants should not even be allowed to buy any models. They are ruining it for the glorious powergaming master race. Touching our divine warhammer modlels with their filthy hands.... And to think they are allowed to buy wraithknights! And they also paint them! Preposterous! Those ignorant poor people can't play the game to save their lives. It would be better for them if someone just banned them altogether. Jesus....

While we're on the subect, the official tournaments* run by GW in the mid 90s had not only sportsmanship and painting scores count (as much as the scores for winning games), but also the pub quiz in the bar afterwards! They were specifically billed as "hobby" competitions, not "gaming" competitions.

* I can't remember the actual name of the events right now.

The thing is most other games etc treat such a thing as a competitive event which draws that crowd in. 40k seems to flip flop on that point a lot, at times trying to be competitive but others going "WTH MAN THE BEER AND PRETZELS".

Really I think part of the issue is just people being dicks to each other.

I don't think you can blame that on "40k"; GW have been pretty consistent, at least in the last few years, that any events they run are about playing the games, not really about who comes first.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
I don't think you can blame that on "40k"; GW have been pretty consistent, at least in the last few years, that any events they run are about playing the games, not really about who comes first.

To be fair, part of the problem is that they basically just haven't run events in the last few years, at least any "large" events, outside of Warhammer World, since like...2010? They used to run "competitive" style events, and then dropped all events everywhere, be they GT's/Games Days/'Ard Boyz, etc.

Yeah there's always going to be a dick amongst the group in a tournament but I'd prefer if none of them were such butt hurt players.
Gaming at GWS or University is much more fun as the objective is to simply have fun and not to take things seriously,
And I have had a guy actually stop me picking up my hit d6's so he can count them himself to make sure

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Part of the problem is that competitive events are pretty much the onlyform of organised group events. If you prefer to "play for fun"* but all that's on offer is tournaments, then that's what you do.

I've heard of people trying to organise "campaign days" or similar, but the uptake is never very high - even among the very people who complain that no-one ever runs "story-driven" events.

This campaign looks awesome, but obviously it's a lot more work than the EW/Maelstrom missions.

http://www.gamermancy.com/rules.html

 Buttery Commissar wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
I would rate a player who gave out hugs at least an 8/10 on Sportsmanship!

I usually settle for a handshake after the game (out of curiosity, short of sharing Oreos, what would make it a 10?).

Though weirdly some people get very confused by handshakes. We just spent an hour or more together and had fun, it's not that strange, surely? I'd do the same if we'd just spent two hours chatting on the train and parted ways.

I have encountered the hanshake adversion as well, its odd to be sure. I just chalk it up to some weird phobia they may have.

On the other side of the fence I winced once when shaking a guys hand who had 2 inch long finger nails, undercoated in filth, smelled, and shook hands like a girl. Its been years since that 'ard boyz tourney, but I remember that clearly. Needless to say I wash my hands before and after my bathroom break.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 KillMaimBurn96 wrote:
Yeah there's always going to be a dick amongst the group in a tournament but I'd prefer if none of them were such butt hurt players.
Gaming at GWS or University is much more fun as the objective is to simply have fun and not to take things seriously,
And I have had a guy actually stop me picking up my hit d6's so he can count them himself to make sure

Man I played a guy who had a magic dice calculator to predict results verses number of dice thrown, I chuckled. He asked what was funny, I simple stated 'magic phase does need to be so percise to win, I'd gladly stick to my gut over a computer program any day. His units also mimiced this min/max dice effect, he failed to take in account flanking, false charges, and a number of outer tactical issues. To his dismay he could not understand how my Vampire Counts stomped his Warriors of Choas. Trust me if your opponent counts one extra hit its not going to change poop.

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Next step: people with bad skillz at gaming should not go to stores as well. Imagine, playing with them in MY LFGS while I could have been playing with better players!

Non-competitive players should play only inside their garages, away from my prying eyes!

Screw this, man. go the extra mile. Non-competitive players, those dirty peasants should not even be allowed to buy any models. They are ruining it for the glorious powergaming master race. Touching our divine warhammer modlels with their filthy hands.... And to think they are allowed to buy wraithknights! And they also paint them! Preposterous! Those ignorant poor people can't play the game to save their lives. It would be better for them if someone just banned them altogether. Jesus....

Your a bit to sensitive, and need to read the post because it has noting to do with banning anyone, it simply states that if your not a competitive player then you shouldn't go to competitive events.

I used to play tournaments until 6th came out. My local store cut out soft scores and I quit going along with quite a few other people. We didn't like the club of people who kept coming in from outside the local area just to play hard core 40k and either winning or dropping out midway through the tourney because they met up with someone who knocked them out of the running and didn't want it to mess up their club scoring.

A tournament to me is not just about how your army does in the field. I do ok, but I do not like one sided battles and do not build the most crushing list I can. If the other player isn't having fun, its usually obvious and I am not having fun. This other club didn't have that philosophy. A tournement should be about gaming yes, but painting and sportsmanship should play an equal role in determining the overall winner. Want to be a WAAC gamer? Fine, win best general, but if you paid for a paint scheme(painting is your painting skill not someone elses, literally buying a win is not acceptable) or were a douche nozzle(Maybe it isn't that way everywhere but my experience in dealing with them is most WAAC players are, sorry) you should not win overall.

Like I said a tournament is the overall experience, not just what netlist can stomp which netlist. Your painting skill and your sportsmanship are just as important as winning a game. A decent quasi-fluffy list painted to an excellent level by an awesome fun player should have as good or better chance at winning than a WAAC player with an ugly net list.

LOL- guy below me(didn't feel like a new post was in order)- in one of my tournaments I played a BA player with a relatively unremarkable army, barely more than three colors and a drybrush, was an absolutely douchebag, almost borderline cheating on dice rolling(which a lot of people observed) wiped me off the table. I nailed him on softscores, low paint score, I didn't give him a zero but he definitely wasn't more than a 3. Sportsmanship was a zero. He argued every rule, complained about my army DSing on him, and the above mentioned possible dice cheating. He won every battle easily. I found him quite randomly on a blog complaining that I chipmonked(never heard that term before) him on his soft scores and cost him the tournament because he thought I was mad about him tabling me. Nope, he had crappy models and a bad attitude. I had long ago accepted my army either won heavily or lost badly(it was an old IG drop army). I tried to avoid that guy from then on as did everyone else. In a team tourney(the TO apologized about pairing us against him beforehand) we actually beat him(he doesn't play well with others it seems) and he walked out of the tournament after the first game.

Dman137 wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Next step: people with bad skillz at gaming should not go to stores as well. Imagine, playing with them in MY LFGS while I could have been playing with better players!

Non-competitive players should play only inside their garages, away from my prying eyes!

Screw this, man. go the extra mile. Non-competitive players, those dirty peasants should not even be allowed to buy any models. They are ruining it for the glorious powergaming master race. Touching our divine warhammer modlels with their filthy hands.... And to think they are allowed to buy wraithknights! And they also paint them! Preposterous! Those ignorant poor people can't play the game to save their lives. It would be better for them if someone just banned them altogether. Jesus....

Your a bit to sensitive, and need to read the post because it has noting to do with banning anyone, it simply states that if your not a competitive player then you shouldn't go to competitive events.

the majority of people who show up at events around here are there to just have fun. Unless you like playing the same 3 people all the time I suggest you change your attitude, You run one of the most broken lists and wonder why you get low scores

I'm sorry but this post is utter bs I play csm so I can hardly play a op list of the likes which have never been seen before but even if I could I'd sooner bring a list which reflects the fluff of my chaos chapter/Legion (the Blight Angels) and bring a list which I know like the bike of my hand that I have learnt the strengths and weaknesses of and have a good game. Imho playing a competitive list Dosent make you a d bag. Heck every now and then I play against competitive players and I know I'm going to lose but ya know what I tried to challenge myself and actually use tactics (what is this tactics you speak of).

Dman137 wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Next step: people with bad skillz at gaming should not go to stores as well. Imagine, playing with them in MY LFGS while I could have been playing with better players!

Non-competitive players should play only inside their garages, away from my prying eyes!

Screw this, man. go the extra mile. Non-competitive players, those dirty peasants should not even be allowed to buy any models. They are ruining it for the glorious powergaming master race. Touching our divine warhammer modlels with their filthy hands.... And to think they are allowed to buy wraithknights! And they also paint them! Preposterous! Those ignorant poor people can't play the game to save their lives. It would be better for them if someone just banned them altogether. Jesus....

Your a bit to sensitive, and need to read the post because it has noting to do with banning anyone, it simply states that if your not a competitive player then you shouldn't go to competitive events.

You are still missing the point. It isn't a competetive event where the object is to win, it's a gaming event where the object is to have fun.

Your post comes across as "if you're in this to have fun, stay in your garage...leave the events to people who just want to win". That may not be what you mean, but it's how you come across.

To the OP: For the love of God, please learn the difference between the following spellings.

Two, to, and too

Your and You're

There, Their, and They're


On Topic: If you want to bring fluffy lists to a tournament, that's cool. If you understand that you're just there to have fun, that's fine. If the other guy stomps you, don't get butt hurt about it and tank their scores.

HOWEVER, if you are stomping another player that's just there to play games and meet people, don't act like a tool bag the entire game. They might tank your scores.

Dman137 wrote:
Year after year you run into people that go to tournaments with non competitive army's and then bomb the players that beat them.. Why did you come to the event.?? What were you hoping to accomplish.? I'm sure many of you have seen this, what are your views on non competitive players going to events but then bash it about how OP players were and also bombing there soft scores.

Just because you roll in with a top tier powerhouse list dosen't mean you will win, second 40k is a game...games are designed to be..i know get ready for the mind blow...FUN. If you play to win and base your whole 40k existence on winning then you sir/mam need to take a second look at yourself. Also you do realise that alot of top tier lists are hatched by those players willing to try something new and just have fun? I use to play alot of wizkid games(heroclix,mechwarrior) and i would put fun lists together or just want something really fluffy( avengers, or a pure clan wolf army with no inher sphere trimmings) and guess what people like you would roll in with the biggest best things and mock what i brought to the table...and sometimes i'd lose and sometimes i'd win. We had this straight rod of a guy that had endless supplies of money and would have the best pieces to make the best lists, i saw him get his digestive tract rerouted by a pure fluff fun army..and he cried cheater. So there was a rematch...same result, he lost...week later he sold his stuff and quit. You can keep thinking that tournements are about blood, and i'm assuming by you starting this thread you seem to think you have some master level of mini war gaming or that your better then players that are in it for fun...but in the end your probably that guy that just copies and pastes top tier lists offline just to win.

While the OP is obsessing over winning with his little toy soldiers, computing a 83.45% chance of wounding another little toy soldier, and throwing a fit when his opponent doesn't bring a cookie cutter net list, I'll be kicking back and enjoying myself. Life is too short to be so emotional about little toy soldiers. Kittens playing with yarn or seeing starving people in Africa makes me emotional. Little toy soldiers? It's kinda hard.

I love going to a tournament with like minded adults who just want to push around little toy soldiers, play war, and drink some beer.

A real winner? Is humble when they win, graceful when they lose, and welcomes all opponents no matter what army they have.

 Tamwulf wrote:
While the OP is obsessing over winning with his little toy soldiers, computing a 83.45% chance of wounding another little toy soldier, and throwing a fit when his opponent doesn't bring a cookie cutter net list, I'll be kicking back and enjoying myself. Life is too short to be so emotional about little toy soldiers. Kittens playing with yarn or seeing starving people in Africa makes me emotional. Little toy soldiers? It's kinda hard.

I love going to a tournament with like minded adults who just want to push around little toy soldiers, play war, and drink some beer.

A real winner? Is humble when they win, graceful when they lose, and welcomes all opponents no matter what army they have.

well spoken..second the beer also

Thirded, although can mine be a good rum / scotch please?

Dman - a 40k event is barely "competitive" to begin with, but with player derived soft scoring it is even less so. Maybe the problem is you think yo uare entering a competitive event, when in fact its a hobby event, and yuo jsut dont understand the difference?

If anyone can name a big GT event won by a fluff army if be happy to hear it. (With in the last let's say 4-5 years

Hey battle company is plenty fluffy! Just happens to be competitive at the same time!

Dman137 wrote:
If anyone can name a big GT event won by a fluff army if be happy to hear it. (With in the last let's say 4-5 years

No one is arguing that fluffy armies will rock-out with their cocks out at tournaments.

What people are saying is that people that bring hard-as-nails lists to tournaments and act like they're some sort of reincarnation of Sun Tzu shouldn't be surprised when their scores get docked for being a jerk.

 kronk wrote:
they're

Their!

Dammit, Kronk!

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Hey battle company is plenty fluffy! Just happens to be competitive at the same time!

Oh. Well. Yeah. There is that.


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 Ashiraya wrote:

 kronk wrote:
they're

Their!

Dammit, Kronk!

I'm so ashamed. It's catchy, like watching someone yawn.

Hey in 2014 a legion of the damned army made the final 16..........not fluffy but in NO way deemed top tier

Dman137 wrote:
If anyone can name a big GT event won by a fluff army if be happy to hear it. (With in the last let's say 4-5 years

Again, define fluffy and competitive such that they are meaningful for 40k.

Again, you are going to events with soft scores which are by definition not related to gaming ability, and claiming them as "competitive"

They arent. Theyre hobby events with a competitive element. Just that.

I'm sorry if this is a shock to you.

Dman137 wrote:
If anyone can name a big GT event won by a fluff army if be happy to hear it. (With in the last let's say 4-5 years

You missed the point....again.

The events are about having fun. If GW was all about events where only the win mattered, that's how events would have been done. But it wasn't. It was about having fun collecting, painting, converting and playing with little resin models. The scoring specifically penalizes TFG, because TFG makes people who would otherwise give hundreds or thousands of dollars to GW for a hobby give that money to someone else for a different hobby.

GW would rather have 10 people who enjoy their hobby than 1 TFG.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
If anyone can name a big GT event won by a fluff army if be happy to hear it. (With in the last let's say 4-5 years

Again, define fluffy and competitive such that they are meaningful for 40k.

Again, you are going to events with soft scores which are by definition not related to gaming ability, and claiming them as "competitive"

They arent. Theyre hobby events with a competitive element. Just that.

I'm sorry if this is a shock to you.

It's a competitive event. Hobby event would be you go to your local Gw and they have a day were they teach you how to build paint and play.
If your going to a event that has best general as a award then you should be bringing the best list you can think of, if you bring a crap list then your not a very good general. List building is key to any good army. What really should be done is have to events, 1 for competitive players and the other for people that just want to hug each other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jwr wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
If anyone can name a big GT event won by a fluff army if be happy to hear it. (With in the last let's say 4-5 years

You missed the point....again.

The events are about having fun. If GW was all about events where only the win mattered, that's how events would have been done. But it wasn't. It was about having fun collecting, painting, converting and playing with little resin models. The scoring specifically penalizes TFG, because TFG makes people who would otherwise give hundreds or thousands of dollars to GW for a hobby give that money to someone else for a different hobby.

GW would rather have 10 people who enjoy their hobby than 1 TFG.
So you can't name one army, go figure

Dman137 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
If anyone can name a big GT event won by a fluff army if be happy to hear it. (With in the last let's say 4-5 years

Again, define fluffy and competitive such that they are meaningful for 40k.

Again, you are going to events with soft scores which are by definition not related to gaming ability, and claiming them as "competitive"

They arent. Theyre hobby events with a competitive element. Just that.

I'm sorry if this is a shock to you.

It's a competitive event. Hobby event would be you go to your local Gw and they have a day were they teach you how to build paint and play.
If your going to a event that has best general as a award then you should be bringing the best list you can think of, if you bring a crap list then your not a very good general. List building is key to any good army. What really should be done is have to events, 1 for competitive players and the other for people that just want to hug each other.

Whoosh

What is competitive about painting scores, as relates to the Wh40k game? Nothing in the game hinges upon how models are painted, it is not a win condition, so how is it a competitive event if your opponents subjective opinion on your painting can determine who wins?

What is competitive about sportsmanship scores? sportsmanship is not a win condition in the game.

No, if you are going toa hobby event with a competitive element, as the events you listed provably are, then you should bring the list you will enjoy the most, that you think is the best painted one you have, etc.

Its like you dont understand the difference between totality and fractions.

'Ard Boyz was the closest to a competitive event you could get. The events you describe are no such thing.